Yesterday I had to listen to my friend for an hour about this.
He is a local attorney and thinks that this is going to cause riots in the streets if Obama doesn't produce a birth certificate to the Supreme Court before December 1st. His opinion is that the Supremes will halt the electoral college vote on December 15th and not allow Obama to become President of the United States.
I am not a lawyer (I respect myself too much to do that) so I don't know. A "writ of certiorari"? I thought they were a brand of breath mints...
Here is a link to the Supreme Court case...
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm
I wish Obama would put this stupid story to rest once and for all.
It was put to rest in August.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
I think legally this moron Berg is still pursuing the matter. I thought I had read that at least one court ruled against him, I guess he's busy appealing. The "Q Nation" talk show host (Campbell?) interviewed Berg and has been charging up the tin foil hats locally.
I agree with your lawyer friend about the potential results of Berg's success. One would expect a lot of turmoil should they thwart the will of the electorate.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I think legally this moron Berg is still pursuing the matter. I thought I had read that at least one court ruled against him, I guess he's busy appealing. The "Q Nation" talk show host (Campbell?) interviewed Berg and has been charging up the tin foil hats locally.
I agree with your lawyer friend about the potential results of Berg's success. One would expect a lot of turmoil should they thwart the will of the electorate.
If this tells you anything about Berg, I heard him first back in July on Coast to Coast radio with George Noory (you know, this is the same station that used to carry Art Bell).
Noory doesn't seem as off the wall as Bell does/did, but he essentially had all the callers challenging him, and even George challenged him about the charge. In true, lawyer fashion, he neither proved nor disproved his point.
Non-issue, and has been for MONTHS. It's all about Wingnuttia and the sore losers within.
This birth certificate deal is embarrassing to reasonable Conservatives. It reminds me of the sore loosers in 2000. Especially those who persisted after AlGore did noble thing (probably his only time) and said GWB was the President Elect. (Hopefully my wording will reduce the remarks from the still sore loosers about whether GWB actually won the election.)
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
It was put to rest in August.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
Thanks.
The guy who talked to me about this was no kook.
He said this is still alive and that the higher court has refused the case, but still wants to see the proof.
I guess "writ of certiorari" means that the high court wants to see the records.
I think the Berg guy is out of the picture, but the court still wants Obama to produce a certificate.
RM, at least according to the source you cited, it appears that only a petition for a writ was filed. That's basically the appeal that was filed by Berg. The Supreme Court so far has denied that petition (via Justice Souter). If the writ had been granted, then the Supreme Court would have ordered the lower court (not Obama) to produce its record for review--that is the meaning of writ of certiorari. I haven't heard of any "demand" that the Supreme Court is making with respect to Obama's birth certificate. And I don't see that they can. I don't know who your lawyer friend is, but I am guessing he or she doesn't practice much before the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court only reviews lower courts to ensure that the law was appropriately followed--it is not an evidentiary court, and would not demand evidence be produced.
I could be wrong--I don't practice before the Supreme Court either. But for the Supreme Court to deny a petition and demand evidence produced anyway sounds like bull to me.
OK, one more try at this. I didn't realize that Berg filed two petitions. First, he filed a petition for writ of cert. Then he filed for an emergency injunction to stop the election. That injunction was denied by Souter. The original petition hasn't been decided yet, but if the other parties (the DNC, FEC, & Obama) want to respond to Berg's original petition, December 1st is the deadline for their response. That doesn't mean anyone has to produce a birth certificate by Dec. 1. The lower court said that no individual has the right to sue under the "natural citizenship" clause of the Constitution. That is what the Supreme Court will decide--if they decide to hear the case at all--not whether or not Obama is a citizen. If they grant cert, and they disagree with the lower court, then they would send it back to the lower court for Berg to prove his case.
Under what possible theory does your friend believe that the Supremes could "halt the electoral college"?
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
This birth certificate deal is embarrassing to reasonable Conservatives. It reminds me of the sore loosers in 2000. Especially those who persisted after AlGore did noble thing (probably his only time) and said GWB was the President Elect. (Hopefully my wording will reduce the remarks from the still sore loosers about whether GWB actually won the election.)
Legally, yes, he won the election. But it was more like 'selected' than 'elected'. Neither of his two runs did he ever win the popular vote.
The electoral college, in my opinion, has outlived its usefulness.
Thanks, pmcalk.
I knew that you legal types could explain it to me.
My friend is one of those lawyers who defends insurance companies against their insurers. He probably has never had a case before the Supremes. His explanation was that the high court wanted some evidence from Obama. His point was that if Obama failed to produce a certificate, he would be in contempt of the court. He further thinks that the electors could not legally vote for a candidate that did not meet the requirements for election.
The Supremes would not stop the election, they would just say that Obama votes would not count.
This whole thing seems incredibly far-fetched and I argued with him that if it was true, it would be covered by the media. Then I came home and found a open case on the Supreme Court website.
If the Supreme Court overturns the results of the election, there will be big trouble.
It won't happen; at least I pray that it won't happen.
This is just an article I read this morning on the subject (I am not giving it any real credence but the dig at factcheck was funny):
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/why_the_barack_obama_birth_cer.html
Is it true that Obama refuses to produce his birth certificate? If so than Obama is being silly, particularly since Sarah Palin was all but forced to prove that Trig was her child and not her daughter's child.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
This is just an article I read this morning on the subject (I am not giving it any real credence but the dig at factcheck was funny):
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/why_the_barack_obama_birth_cer.html
Is it true that Obama refuses to produce his birth certificate? If so than Obama is being silly, particularly since Sarah Palin was all but forced to prove that Trig was her child and not her daughter's child.
This is sheer lunacy. It's as pathetic as those claiming that William Ayers ghost-wrote Obama's first book.
I find it funny that people are spending so much energy on this, especially after someone found Obama's birth notice in the Honolulu Advertiser's archives back in 1961. And the same notice appeared in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081109/NEWS01/811090361/-1/SPECIALOBAMA08
Hmmm. So someone faked the archives of Honolulu's two daily newspapers. And the birth certificate, too. Riiiiiiiight.
These nutjobs need to spend time on substantive issues, not conspiracy theories that make the 9/11 Truthers look sane.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
The electoral college, in my opinion, has outlived its usefulness.
The electoral college should at a minimum reflect the popular vote. Winner take all states should be a thing of the past. Best system or not, at least the candidates know the rules.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
If the Supreme Court overturns the results of the election, there will be big trouble.
It won't happen; at least I pray that it won't happen.
"Big trouble"? Try, anarchy. Even I would be out in the streets calling for the impeachment of those justices that voted to overturn the election.
Ayers most certainly wrote the O's books.
The document that factcheck looked at is different than the document that is produced by the attending physician, and can be issued to any child less than one year old byt he State of Hawaii. Further, factcheck is an apparatus of the Annenberg foundation of which the O and Ayers are board members.
O's grandmum says she saw him born in her village, so unless she has so many sons who bring home so many pregnant white girls that she cannot keep them separate . . .
In any case her legal guardians posited him as an Islamic child, a citizen of Indonesia when they enrolled him in school. He lied on his Bar application about aliases, even, so he should not even be allowed to practice law.
This all is why Hillary kept her challenge going for so long, they had done the vetting and they probably thought - wrongly - that McCain and his group could successfully exploit this all.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Ayers most certainly wrote the O's books.
The document that factcheck looked at is different than the document that is produced by the attending physician, and can be issued to any child less than one year old byt he State of Hawaii. Further, factcheck is an apparatus of the Annenberg foundation of which the O and Ayers are board members.
O's grandmum says she saw him born in her village, so unless she has so many sons who bring home so many pregnant white girls that she cannot keep them separate . . .
In any case her legal guardians posited him as an Islamic child, a citizen of Indonesia when they enrolled him in school. He lied on his Bar application about aliases, even, so he should not even be allowed to practice law.
This all is why Hillary kept her challenge going for so long, they had done the vetting and they probably thought - wrongly - that McCain and his group could successfully exploit this all.
(http://ipl.pipnet.com/eggs/koolaid-large.jpg)
One million dollars. That is how much the O has spent fighting these legal challenges to produce the birth certificate. Seems kind of extreme to make a point.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
One million dollars. That is how much the O has spent fighting these legal challenges to produce the birth certificate. Seems kind of extreme to make a point.
Source? If true, it would seem odd to me. Not that I really care, he was selected by his party and elected by the nation to lead. But it certainly would seem odd to spend $1mil when a piece of paper would suffice (thinking of what else he might want undiscovered on there?).
Per the case:
I have never heard of the Supreme Court demanding evidence. If a lower court ruled against Berg and it was appealed to the Supreme Court and they found some lack of evidence... they would REMAND the case to the lower court for the production of such evidence. They would not demand it themselves unless they claimed original jurisdiction over the matter. It would be highly unusual and make more headlines than what I have heard (one would imagine).
Electoral College:
Arguing from a small state that it has outlived it's usefulness is ignorance. It is a tool specifically designed to give small states a voice. The electoral college is to the presidency what the Senate is to the Congress. Should we also get rid of the Senate because it disproportionately represents the nation?
Iowa, Nevada, Missouri, New Mexico... those states would mean NOTHING if we went to a straight democracy. Some states would not change (Oklahoma), but in general the move would limit small states roll in the process.
Not too mention the controversy would be raised. An election win of 2 or 3% is within the margin of error for the voting process. A nationwide recount would be a nightmare. With the electoral college we can discount such errors in many instances.
I have to say, Tim, that it's really a moot point. The man won one of the largest majorities in American history. There's no plausible way a court will try to invalidate an election like that -- even if -- and this is me positing a BIG IF -- there're issues with O's birth certificate.
Yes, this is me telling you the law, even if broken, doesn't particularly matter.
Also, beware of court cases brought by winger loonies. All during the Clinton administration, this was a favorite tactic of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (in actuality, not really vast, but still something of a conspiracy): bring trumped up charges against political target, and use the fact that charges were brought to legitimize said charges. "If it made it into court, it MUST have some merit!" Well, no, it almost never did. And in this case it doesn't either.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
One million dollars. That is how much the O has spent fighting these legal challenges to produce the birth certificate. Seems kind of extreme to make a point.
Obama had a scanned copy of the certificate on his website and provided Fact Check the physical certificate. They found it be valid. The state of Hawaii has also validated the birth certificate.
The Annenberg Foundation, of which Fact Check is a part, is not a liberal group. It's founder was Walter Annenberg who was a well known Republican and friend to Reagan.
You have made a lot of crazy accusations here and to maintain any credibility are going to have to dig up some real evidence that:
1 Obama's grandmother said he was born in Kenya
2 That Obama spent a million dollars defending his birth
3 That Ayers wrote Obama's books
And NOT evidence from idiotic right wing blogs.
The really stupid part is, even IF Obama was born in Kenya (which you have to be a real nut job to still think is true), he still is eligible to be president through his mother.
Hell, McCain was born in Panama.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Also, beware of court cases brought by winger loonies. All during the Clinton administration, this was a favorite tactic of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (in actuality, not really vast, but still something of a conspiracy): bring trumped up charges against political target, and use the fact that charges were brought to legitimize said charges. "If it made it into court, it MUST have some merit!" Well, no, it almost never did. And in this case it doesn't either.
\
Whoa, there. Are you sincerely claiming that the right is the group that brings "trumped up charges"? I think Tom Delay would like to speak with you.
Here is a Youtube clip of some guy commenting on Obama spending $800K to stop the disclosure. He does not provide his source.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7KO2bUOb4k
Incidentally, could you imagine the savaging Sarah Palin would have gotten if she were photographed speaking into an upside down phone?
quote:
Originally posted by swake
And NOT evidence from idiotic right wing blogs.
The really stupid part is, even IF Obama was born in Kenya (which you have to be a real nut job to still think is true), he still is eligible to be president through his mother.
Do you know any 'right wing' blog that is not 'idiotic'?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by swake
And NOT evidence from idiotic right wing blogs.
The really stupid part is, even IF Obama was born in Kenya (which you have to be a real nut job to still think is true), he still is eligible to be president through his mother.
Do you know any 'right wing' blog that is not 'idiotic'?
I am absolutely positive that somewhere there is a well thought out, considered, and reasonable right wing blog whose positions I can respect whether or not I may or may not personally agree with the writers's positions. Just as I know there are plenty of idiotic left wing blogs. I can't name a specific right wing political blog that I respect because I don't really read political blogs much. For that matter I can't name a left wing blog I respect either.
Political blogs tend to be written by small minded demagogues that don't like to come to places like TulsaNow where they may be confronted and forced to defend their facts and positions. I can only name a few political blogs and I don't really care for any of them. Your idol Drudge least of all.
All the left wing "George Bush bombed the World Trade Center" blogs are just about as reasonable as your "Obama was born in Kenya and is a secret Muslim sleeper cell agent" crap. Hysterical stupidity is a trait that strikes all political movements equally and blogs are that trait's favorite current outlet. I miss the days when these conspiracy nuts were confined to being strange people on street corners mumbling vague threats and warnings under their breath.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Quote
The really stupid part is, even IF Obama was born in Kenya (which you have to be a real nut job to still think is true), he still is eligible to be president through his mother.
Hell, McCain was born in Panama.
Not necessarily.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/06/02/expats_ed3_.php?page=1
As for McCain, I though he was born on a U.S. military installation.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
All the left wing "George Bush bombed the World Trade Center" blogs are just about as reasonable as your "Obama was born in Kenya and is a secret Muslim sleeper cell agent" crap. Hysterical stupidity is a trait that strikes all political movements equally and blogs are that trait's favorite current outlet. I miss the days when these conspiracy nuts were confined to being strange people on street corners mumbling vague threats and warnings under their breath.
Funny thing is Berg is 911 Troofer! And I am not alledging he is part of a Muslim 'cell.' I think it is indisputable that for a while as a yoot he was raised Islamic, but he is not Muslim now.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Also, beware of court cases brought by winger loonies. All during the Clinton administration, this was a favorite tactic of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (in actuality, not really vast, but still something of a conspiracy): bring trumped up charges against political target, and use the fact that charges were brought to legitimize said charges. "If it made it into court, it MUST have some merit!" Well, no, it almost never did. And in this case it doesn't either.
\
Whoa, there. Are you sincerely claiming that the right is the group that brings "trumped up charges"? I think Tom Delay would like to speak with you.
He and I can chat, so long as he admits that he's been under indictment for more than three years, challenged the charges multiple times and succeeded in only getting one lesser charge dropped. He had the judge removed from the case because he was a Democrat, had the venue moved from Travis County because it's predominantly Democratic, and has spent most of the 3 years smearing Ronnie Earle, the DA who's pursued the case (Earle is, btw, not seeking re-election).
Delay's made a stellar career out of hyperpartisanship -- K Street Project, anyone? Or how 'bout some of his lesser known redistricting attempts? -- so it's no surprise that he'd conjure the Democratic Witchhunt Smokescreen to protect his butt. You'd think it'd be harder to bring that to bear when the statewide judicial process has pretty much ratified the original indictment. But I guess it's true what Colbert has always said: reality has a well-known liberal bias.
I think the people running around accusing Obama of not being an natural born citizen or whining because he won't submit to whackjobs by not showing his birth certificate to a federal judge are so loser whackjobs morons. They are no different the sore loser whackjob morons who ran around accusing Bush of stealing the elections or the morons who run around saying Bush lied to get us into Iraq even though everyone and their mom said Saddam had WMDs(and this was before Bush was even in office) Saddam had a history of using WMDs and the fact Saddam led everyone to believe he had WMDs.
Republicans should be better than this,republicans shouldn't be engaging in the same nonsense that democrats engaged in.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
I think the people running around accusing Obama of not being an natural born citizen or whining because he won't submit to whackjobs by not showing his birth certificate to a federal judge are so loser whackjobs morons. They are no different the sore loser whackjob morons who ran around accusing Bush of stealing the elections or the morons who run around saying Bush lied to get us into Iraq even though everyone and their mom said Saddam had WMDs(and this was before Bush was even in office) Saddam had a history of using WMDs and the fact Saddam led everyone to believe he had WMDs.
Republicans should be better than this,republicans shouldn't be engaging in the same nonsense that democrats engaged in.
YOU are the idiot, the fool, and the moron. FORTUNATELY we can survive fools, idiots, and morons like you, but not TRAITORS. You know, TRAITORS. Like people who would discount the importance of, you know, the CONSTITUTION.
Do you read the crap you have as you 'signature,' or is it there just to impress others with your eruditeness and breadth of knowledge?
Look, the O has an obligation to fulfill the requirements of the Constitution to some legal authority once and for all. Why he supposedly has not is a matter of conjecture, but in the meantime he has an obligation to prove he is a natural born citizen. I am amazed at how low the bar has been lowered.
I am not a Republicrat; are you, fool?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
I think the people running around accusing Obama of not being an natural born citizen or whining because he won't submit to whackjobs by not showing his birth certificate to a federal judge are so loser whackjobs morons. They are no different the sore loser whackjob morons who ran around accusing Bush of stealing the elections or the morons who run around saying Bush lied to get us into Iraq even though everyone and their mom said Saddam had WMDs(and this was before Bush was even in office) Saddam had a history of using WMDs and the fact Saddam led everyone to believe he had WMDs.
Republicans should be better than this,republicans shouldn't be engaging in the same nonsense that democrats engaged in.
YOU are the idiot, the fool, and the moron. FORTUNATELY we can survive fools, idiots, and morons like you, but not TRAITORS. You know, TRAITORS. Like people who would discount the importance of, you know, the CONSTITUTION.
Do you read the crap you have as you 'signature,' or is it there just to impress others with your eruditeness and breadth of knowledge?
Look, the O has an obligation to fulfill the requirements of the Constitution to some legal authority once and for all. Why he supposedly has not is a matter of conjecture, but in the meantime he has an obligation to prove he is a natural born citizen. I am amazed at how low the bar has been lowered.
I am not a Republicrat; are you, fool?
Ad hominem much?
[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
I think the people running around accusing Obama of not being an natural born citizen or whining because he won't submit to whackjobs by not showing his birth certificate to a federal judge are so loser whackjobs morons. They are no different the sore loser whackjob morons who ran around accusing Bush of stealing the elections or the morons who run around saying Bush lied to get us into Iraq even though everyone and their mom said Saddam had WMDs(and this was before Bush was even in office) Saddam had a history of using WMDs and the fact Saddam led everyone to believe he had WMDs.
Republicans should be better than this,republicans shouldn't be engaging in the same nonsense that democrats engaged in.
YOU are the idiot, the fool, and the moron. FORTUNATELY we can survive fools, idiots, and morons like you, but not TRAITORS. You know, TRAITORS. Like people who would discount the importance of, you know, the CONSTITUTION.
Do you read the crap you have as you 'signature,' or is it there just to impress others with your eruditeness and breadth of knowledge?
Look, the O has an obligation to fulfill the requirements of the Constitution to some legal authority once and for all. Why he supposedly has not is a matter of conjecture, but in the meantime he has an obligation to prove he is a natural born citizen. I am amazed at how low the bar has been lowered.
I am not a Republicrat; are you, fool?
Ad hominem much?
[xx(]
Spew sentence fragments often?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
YOU are the idiot, the fool, and the moron. FORTUNATELY we can survive fools, idiots, and morons like you, but not TRAITORS. You know, TRAITORS. Like people who would discount the importance of, you know, the CONSTITUTION.
It should be a requirement that everyone running for president present their birth certificate before running in the primaries. Our elected officials should not be held to the whims of sore loser nut jobs who make bogus accusations because they read some bull **** somewhere that he wasn't a natural born American citizen. Obama put his birth certificate on the internet for everyone and their mom to see and a Hawaii official said they have a copy of Obama's birth certificate.
Besides the die hard nut jobs claiming Obama is not a natural born citizen are also claiming that even if he was born in Hawaii it doesn't matter because his natural born citizenship was forfeited. Do you think you are the only one who listens to the Pat Campbell show? I would have expected someone like Pat not to jump on the conspiracy moron band wagon,but I guess I was wrong
quote:
Do you read the crap you have as you 'signature,' or is it there just to impress others with your eruditeness and breadth of knowledge?
Why is it you die hard Obama bashers hang on to this belief that if Obama is not a citizen that somehow McCain will be the winner and that somehow he is better. McCain tried to sell this country out to illegal immigration. McCain like Bush is a globalist. So this nonsense that republicans are somehow better than democrats is a load of b.s. There is no such thing as a patriot who is a globalist and would sell this country out to illegal immigration.
quote:
Look, the O has an obligation to fulfill the requirements of the Constitution to some legal authority once and for all.
Did McCain,Clinton,Romney, and any other past presidential candidate present their birth certificate on the whims of nut jobs? That hypocrite Allen Keys who is one of the nut jobs running around accusing Obama of not being a natural born citizen, did he present his birth certificate?
quote:
Why he supposedly has not is a matter of conjecture, but in the meantime he has an obligation to prove he is a natural born citizen.
You cave into one nut job making bogus demands then you set the precedent for other nut jobs to come out and make bogus accusations. Ask yourself this,if there was any legitimacy of the claims of Obama not being a natural born citizen,wouldn't the republicans and 3rd party candidates and other democrat primary candidates exploited the hell out of this? When some homosexual was running around on you tube claiming he has sex with Obama and snorted coke with him the republicans paid him to take a lie detector test with the promise of more money. So the republicans would have exploited the Obama is not a natural born American citizen conspiracy if there was any legitimacy to it.
Obama put his birth certificate on the net for everyone to see, has any other presidential candidate done that?
quote:
I am amazed at how low the bar has been lowered.
I am amazed how low republicans have sunk. This petty nonsense of making up bull **** in something in order to try to discredit someone's presidency is something the democrats would do. When Bush was president it was wrong of the die hard Bush basher wackos to run around and make up lies of Bush stealing the election or Bush going AWOL or bush lying to get us into Iraq. Republicans and conservatives should be above this kind of nonsense. It wasn't right when the democrats did it and it is not right with the republicans do it.
quote:
I am not a Republicrat; are you, fool?
I didn't vote for McCain or Obama. I voted for everything else on the ballot except for the president. If I could have voted for a 3rd party candidate I would have. Because I think both of them will screw us and I refuse to encourage the republicans to prop up any more sell out liberal globalist republicans.
Timmay,
If you were the grand dragon of the Obama inquisition, what would you hope to accomplish?
He shows a birth ceritifcate, and it says he was born in Timbuktu to a American Mother and a Kenyan father. At that point, one could argue he was a natural born citizen. Everyone has to be a citizen of some country by virtue of international law, if born to an American mother who is over seas you are considered an American citizen and only need to certify it with State.
Born to an American mother (who cares where). He was then taken to Hawaii and raised by his American Grandmother. He then went to undergraduate school in America. Law school in America. Married an American. Worked in America. Ran for President in America. And was elected president in America.
Sounds Kenyan to me. That bastard!
And, if you want to get technical: Washington, Madison, Jefferson, and the first 10 or so Presidents were not technically Natural Born Citizens of the United States. Shall we retroactively remove their title and burn our $1 bills?
ANY, moreover, you are on a totally pointless and fool hearty question. All the information has been released. You have wasted 15 minutes of my life with this crap and I resent it.
Calling people a traitor for arguing with facts and logic? Then calling them and all Republican fools? Why are you so bitter?
Anyway... here, I hope you enjoy a copy of all the vital records of Barrack Obama:
(http://www.politifact.com/media/files/obamadriving.jpg)
No tickets!
(http://www.politifact.com/media/files/obamamarriage.jpg)
Really married...
http://www.politifact.com/media/files/obamaattyreg.pdf
Clearn attorney record.
(http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg)
Prima facia evidence that he was born to an American mother in America and hence, a Natural Born citizen.
DO YOU HAVE ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE?
Apparently the 911 conspiracy has been debunked enough that you've moved on. Haliburton isn't in the news enough anymore for that to be a fun tinfoil hat to wear. So you've moved on to this.
Now run along, find the next popular myth to support.
Let me head off your "BUT THATS NOT THE HOSPITAL ISSUED CERTIFICATE" crap. True. But guess what? The official state copy serves as the official record, not the foot imprints on a pretty framed paper on your parents wall.
You would have to be prepared to argue that they snuck a child into the country without a passport of visa, then faked a birth, forged a birth certificate, and fraudulently had a friend register it. THEN, make sure everyone continued that lie for 50 years.
Which would also be an argument that Barrack himself has no notion of those events. Putting a very interesting twist on your argument since as far as he knows, and the entire record of course, he is a natural born US citizen.
Not sure which '911' conspiracy you believe I adhere to. And I do think that 'no bid' contracts are wrong. Clearly Bush misused and misunderstood the information he was given, when it was not necessary.
O has an obligation to prove he is a natural born citizen. If a geezer goes into buy a pack of smokes or some beer, he/she has an obligation to produce a proof of age. If an officer stops me in my car and asks for them, I have an obligation to prove my registration and insurance. If I produce a child for attendance at school, I have to produce documentation. And so forth.
My buddy the 'Rebellious Republican' sez you should stop being such a card-carrying member of the Communist Party - aka 'Democrat.' Not saying that is my position, just wanted to pass on what HE said.
Point being, those ARE the documents. Obama HAS proven it.
This doesn't even rise to the level of 9-11 Truth Squadism. At least there's a little ambiguity there. Here, there ISN'T any ambiguity. There're only people with political agendas trying to make it SEEM ambiguous.
Argh... by supporting common I clearly must be a Democrat. My positions are well known.
(http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg)
I'll post it again for you.
(http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg)
Now where is your proof that he is not?
Why do I bother? You didn't even read my post or look at the documents I provided. And you call other peoples fools?
Oh, ok. You all are right. There is NO WAY to refute that paper. NO WAY. That should do it. Constitution fulfilled by way of a document that does not indicate where he was born. Swell. That is great! Why do you bother? Because you love to argue!
"WND columnist Janet Porter, who has investigated the dispute, wrote in her column that there are too many questions to ignore.
"In Hawaii, a Certification of Live Birth is issued within a year of a child's birth to those who register a birth abroad or one that takes place outside a hospital," she said.
"There's the matter that Obama traveled to Indonesia, Pakistan, Southern India and Kenya in 1981. He said he went to Indonesia to see his mother. This seemed plausible, except for the fact that his mother returned to Hawaii in August of 1980 to file for a divorce from her second husband, Lolo Soetoro. Unless she went back to pal around with the man she divorced, she wasn't there at the time of Obama's visit," Porter wrote.
"There's another problem. No record of Obama holding an American passport prior to the one he received once becoming a U.S. senator has been found. If he traveled to Pakistan with an American passport, he wouldn't have been allowed in – since Pakistan was in turmoil in 1981 and under martial law. It was also on the State Department's travel ban list for U.S. citizens," she wrote.
"If he couldn't get into Pakistan with a U.S. passport, perhaps he went there with an Indonesian passport. But the only way you can get one of those is if you are an Indonesian citizen," she wrote.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Oh, ok. You all are right. There is NO WAY to refute that paper. NO WAY. That should do it. Constitution fulfilled by way of a document that does not indicate where he was born. Swell. That is great!
City Town Location of Birth: Honolulu
Island of Birth: Oahu
County of Birth: Honolulu
Issuing State: Hawaii
Issuing Agency: Hawaii Department of Health, U.S.A.
- - -
That doesn't give you a clue of where he was born? Furthermore, as I also pointed our earlier... if he was born in Pakistan, India, or China to an American Citizen mother he would still be a natural born American Citizen by definition.
If McCain won you'd be giving the Canal zone argument. You simple want there to be some grand conspiratorial injustice. Sorry, usually there is not one.
Go find an Indonesian birth certificate or passport... otherwise the best evidence rule says I win.Or jump up and down with your "alternative" solutions and whine some more without any evidence.
And I ask you again... you are the grand dragon of the Obama inquisition. What does he have to provide you, other than a litany of government issued documents, to prove he is a natural born US citizen? And if he is unable to provide those documents what would you do? Depose an elected president who has proven he is a US Citizen and not not disprove he ever held an Indonesian passport?You are putting the burden of proof on Obama to disprove your conspiracy theory. Are you at all familiar with Russell's teapot? The burden of proof is on the one proposing a new idea, not the one supporting the proposition supported by the current best evidence.
The Constitution said it, I follow it, that settles it. The COBL is not proof. Sorry to be a weenie about it.
Tim, when a chronic wingnut like jamesrage sees this "controversy" for the B.S. and lunacy that it is, you've got problems.
Just sayin'.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
The COBL is not proof.
A Certificate of Live Birth from a state is a legally accepted document in every corner you can name. It's proof.
You don't think everyone's going to demand an original birth certificate and subject them to possible loss, do you? That's why certificates are issued.
The joke is an "original birth certificate" is not an acceptable form of ID. You can not use it to to get back in the Country from Canada or Mexico, to get a passport, to prove your age, or anything else. The hospital issued document is merely to memorialize the event, a keep sake.
The state issues birth certificate is the PROOF of birth in the United States, period. From coast to coast, all states, all agencies, bars, casino's you name it. The "original" is issued by a nurse is not the official copy.
Furthermore, answer the questions that I posed oh grand master of the Obama inquisition. I ask you for the THIRD time.
Finally, the Constitution says natural born citizen. Obama has proved he is a natural born citizen by the best evidence available.
DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND or are you daft?
Crap!
Now I am starting to question my own citizenship.
All I have to prove that I'm a citizen is this silly birth certificate, passport, and the somewhat dubious word of my parents and the doctor that delivered me 39 years ago.
For all I know, I could be a North Korean or Iranian, or worse yet. . . I could actually be a dog or a small rodent. How can I be sure of my species?
All I have is silly documentation to prove that I am who I am.
What a dilemma.
FODDER:
That doesn't give you a clue of where he was born? Furthermore, as I also pointed our earlier... if he was born in Pakistan, India, or China to an American Citizen mother he would still be a natural born American Citizen by definition.
ME:
His parents (sperm donor and his US-hating mom) said he was an Indonesian citizen. HERE (//%22http://www.daylife.com/photo/01u33pL9Ns06D%22) At that time, then, he was an Indonesian citizen, which did not allow for dual citizenship of minors HERE (//%22http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_2052.html%22). The COBL merely shows that an infant was presented and his guardians told the DHS or whatever where and when he was born.
FODDER:
If McCain won you'd be giving the Canal zone argument. You simple want there to be some grand conspiratorial injustice. Sorry, usually there is not one.
ME:
Talk about lack of evidence and jumping to conclusions! You know me sooooo well! Ha ha!
FODDER:
Go find an Indonesian birth certificate or passport... otherwise the best evidence rule says I win. Or jump up and down with your "alternative" solutions and whine some more without any evidence.
ME:
[ibid]
FODDER:
And I ask you again... you are the grand dragon of the Obama inquisition. What does he have to provide you, other than a litany of government issued documents, to prove he is a natural born US citizen?
ME:
The birth certificate showing his happy @$$ was slapped by a doctor in the great state of Hawaii.
FODDER:
1. And if he is unable to provide those documents what would you do? 2. Depose an elected president who has proven he is a US Citizen and not not disprove he ever held an Indonesian passport?
ME:
1. Encourage Arnold Schwarzenegger to run for POTUS.
2. He has not proven he is a citizen. His parents said he was Indonesian. Ask him why his commie, USA hating, globe-trotting mom wanted him raised Islamic.
FODDER:
You are putting the burden of proof on Obama to disprove your conspiracy theory. Are you at all familiar with Russell's teapot? The burden of proof is on the one proposing a new idea, not the one supporting the proposition supported by the current best evidence.
[/quote]
ME:
Blame the Constitution. It set up the criteria without defining how disputes would be settled. The Constitution needs to amended.
You are either daft or an donkey. Simple as that.
1) The hospital issued certificate is meaningless.
2) He has provided a state issued certificate.
3) If he was born to a US mother over seas and claimed US citizenship he is a natural born citizen anyway.
4) You have no proof to the contrary.
5) Your conspiracy has him believing that he is a natural born citizen (clearly he doesn't know), would you have him deposed if he is unable to prove to your satisfaction that he is a natural citizen even if you can find no evidence to the contrary?
6) You keep crying that you are the defender of the Constitution while it is clear you are defending your own ideals. If you want to stand up for your point of view, don't wuss out and pretend to stand for something else.
The constitutional requirement for Obama being a natural born citizen have been met by the production of a valid U.S. Birth Certificate, nothing else is required. If you come up with proof sometime in the next 4 years let me know, until then you are on a conspiracy witch hunt. Whine and cry all you want, I've wasted enough time on you.
Here is the fact: A State Issued Certificate of live birth is prima facia evidence of being a natural born US Citizen. You can insist over and over and over to the contrary, but your position is very clear wrong:
Q: What do I need to prove citizenship?
A: Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state.
US State Department (//%22http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html%22)
Na-uh, doesn't count! The government doesn't care about government documents... they little foot prints on card board. Enjoy being proven wrong.
When dealing with the tin foil hat brigade, remember this:
Facts, however interesting, are irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
You are either daft or an donkey. Simple as that.
1) The hospital issued certificate is meaningless.
2) He has provided a state issued certificate.
3) If he was born to a US mother over seas and claimed US citizenship he is a natural born citizen anyway.
4) You have no proof to the contrary.
5) Your conspiracy has him believing that he is a natural born citizen (clearly he doesn't know), would you have him deposed if he is unable to prove to your satisfaction that he is a natural citizen even if you can find no evidence to the contrary?
6) You keep crying that you are the defender of the Constitution while it is clear you are defending your own ideals. If you want to stand up for your point of view, don't wuss out and pretend to stand for something else.
The constitutional requirement for Obama being a natural born citizen have been met by the production of a valid U.S. Birth Certificate, nothing else is required. If you come up with proof sometime in the next 4 years let me know, until then you are on a conspiracy witch hunt. Whine and cry all you want, I've wasted enough time on you.
Here is the fact: A State Issued Certificate of live birth is prima facia evidence of being a natural born US Citizen. You can insist over and over and over to the contrary, but your position is very clear wrong:
Q: What do I need to prove citizenship?
A: Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state.
US State Department (//%22http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html%22)
Na-uh, doesn't count! The government doesn't care about government documents... they little foot prints on card board. Enjoy being proven wrong.
No sweat off my nose. I jumped in to the fray here because I believe he was born in Kenya - as his grandmum said he was; admittedly, it is an interesting argument without any action line. Strictly for argument sake so friggin relax, dudes.
HEAR ME???? FRIGGIN RELAX!!
And I would appreciate the argument if it was cogent. Unfortunately, the best evidence says otherwise. The manner in which you expressed it and refused to acknowledge evidence to the contrary is what led to the frustration on my part.
Nonetheless, interesting point and duly noted.
On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story
CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced." Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.
Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.
Perfectly agreed Guido... but no such evidence has been provided. The she said this or that or he traveled here or there is no better evidence of anything. And, from a populist perspective, this won't be touched anyway.
Even if an Indonesian passport was provided tomorrow, could you imagine the Supreme Court ousting a duly elected president who had no idea of this issue? You thought Gore was a tough decision. Sheesh! (Not that they should ignore the evidence if it is presented, just that they will weasel out of it guaranteed EVEN IF shown 99%).
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story
CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced." Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.
Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.
I'd sure like to see what this contradictory evidence would be. The case for forgery is very unlikely, and I heard the allegation by the grandmother is extremely dubious (via phone, with a bad connection, to an old woman who might have confused memories).
I just don't think Obama has a birth certificate. I think he is a robot.
If you add a T to his name and spell it backwards, it is "Am a Bot."
I want some real proof that he is human. That ain't too much to ask.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story
CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced." Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.
Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.
I'd sure like to see what this contradictory evidence would be. The case for forgery is very unlikely, and I heard the allegation by the grandmother is extremely dubious (via phone, with a bad connection, to an old woman who might have confused memories).
For you edification, here is something that ran in the Chi Trib:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/acrobat/2008-12/43669993.pdf
Take it for whatever its worth
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Perfectly agreed Guido... but no such evidence has been provided. The she said this or that or he traveled here or there is no better evidence of anything. And, from a populist perspective, this won't be touched anyway.
Even if an Indonesian passport was provided tomorrow, could you imagine the Supreme Court ousting a duly elected president who had no idea of this issue? You thought Gore was a tough decision. Sheesh! (Not that they should ignore the evidence if it is presented, just that they will weasel out of it guaranteed EVEN IF shown 99%).
I think you know the reason I posted what I did was the impression you might have left was that prima facie evidence could not be rebutted. As for this "evidence", it's crap.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
On way or the other this matter will apparently be over tomorrow as the Supremes take it up:
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/chi-obama-birth-certificatedec04,0,3247305.story
CF: Not to nitpick, but simply because a birth certificate might be "prima facie evidence" of natural citizenship, it does not exclude the opportunity for a person opposing that evidence to provide contradictory evidence. Indeed, Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004) defines prima facie evidence as "[e]vidence that will establish a fact or sustain a judgment unless contradictory evidence is produced." Evidence such as that alleged statement by Obama's grandmother or that the certificate is a forgery I believe would qualify as contradictory evidence.
Oh, and as I have stated before in this thread and elsewhere, I think this birth issue is nonsense.
I'd sure like to see what this contradictory evidence would be. The case for forgery is very unlikely, and I heard the allegation by the grandmother is extremely dubious (via phone, with a bad connection, to an old woman who might have confused memories).
For you edification, here is something that ran in the Chi Trib:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/acrobat/2008-12/43669993.pdf
Take it for whatever its worth
That is a paid advertisement taken out by an anti-tax activist group called 'We the People Foundation'. They are the ones who run around in the creepy 'V for Vendetta' masks. Yeah, they're credible.
Here is the Chicago Tribune's response to the full page ad:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-obama-ad-03-dec03,0,3124041.story
The Tribunes response is worth reading. Essentially all the claims made have already been debunked.
*The forgery claim when neutral parties verified the original document
* Hawaiian officials HAVE confirmed the authenticity
* Affidavits do indeed state that Obama was born in Kenya: the affidavits were filed by the people who brought the suits.
* Obama's grandmother has never said he was born in Kenya. Instead a person has come forward and said that he once translated for the birth of a person named Obama in Kenya on a call to America. A story his grandmother denies.
* Specific steps needed to relinquish citizenship were not followed - the same document they pretend does so also lists his birth place as Hawaii (why lie if you were trying to relinquish rights anyway?).
The entire argument is flawed. It is a publicity student at the top and wishful/conspiratorial thinking at the bottom.
My grandma always said we were related to Benjamin Franklin. My last name is Franklin so it must be true, for we all know the stories our grandmothers tell are true... right? [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
* Obama's grandmother has never said he was born in Kenya. Instead a person has come forward and said that he once translated for the birth of a person named Obama in Kenya on a call to America. A story his grandmother denies.
NO ONE HURT ME for dipping back in.
Here is 'the' clip of grannie 'making' the claim. (//%22http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlFc4wCpvSo%22). I am not sure SETI could decipher the call, but this dude does.
Interesting: Obamassociates have been working to revise or repeal that whole 'natural born' cwaziness here (//%22http://countusout.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/obama-covertly-working-to-amend-the-natural-born-citizen-requirement/%22).
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
* Obama's grandmother has never said he was born in Kenya. Instead a person has come forward and said that he once translated for the birth of a person named Obama in Kenya on a call to America. A story his grandmother denies.
NO ONE HURT ME for dipping back in.
Here is 'the' clip of grannie 'making' the claim. (//%22http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlFc4wCpvSo%22). I am not sure SETI could decipher the call, but this dude does.
Interesting: Obamassociates have been working to revise or repeal that whole 'natural born' cwaziness here (//%22http://countusout.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/obama-covertly-working-to-amend-the-natural-born-citizen-requirement/%22).
Henry Kissinger comes to mind regarding the natural born situation.
For the record, I think this issue is most likely B.S. regarding the Obaminator. (Intended will all due respect to the President Elect.)
Aaaaaaaaand scene! (//%22http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/supreme-court-rejects-appeal-over-obamas-citizenship/?hp%22)
quote:
Supreme Court Rejects Appeal Over Obama's Citizenship
By Kate Phillips
Without any comment whatsoever, the Supreme Court today declined to take up an appeal by a New Jersey man who questioned President-elect Barack Obama's eligibility for the presidency, based on his birth to a father from Kenya and a mother who was a United States citizen.
Though all is not lost, Tim:
quote:
There is still another case out there, challenging the president-elect's right to assume the presidency based on his parentage and the years he spent overseas in Indonesia.
quote:
This is the kind of doubt-bending thing that lives independently online, but from the looks of today's decision by the highest court in the land, the accusation isn't gaining much ground in the realm of reality.
Well put by the NYT.