Don't be so negative.
Obama sign thefts called racism
By WORLD CAPITOL BUREAU
10/4/2008
OKLAHOMA CITY — Oklahoma Democratic Party Chairman Ivan Holmes said Friday that racism is a factor in the theft of signs for presidential candidate Barack Obama.
In yards displaying signs for Obama, Democratic Corporation Commissioner Jim Roth and Democratic U.S. Senate candidate Andrew Rice, only the Obama signs have been taken, he said.
During a press conference at party headquarters, Holmes held up an Obama sign that had been burned.
"I have not witnessed a lot of burned signs," he said.
The majority of Oklahomans do not condone racism, Holmes said, but "there is no question" it is the motivation for some to steal Obama signs.
He said the signs are being removed in all of the state's 77 counties.
Holmes said he is asking those displaying Obama signs to take them in at night in an effort to reduce the thefts.
Various groups have given out about 45,000 Obama signs, Holmes said.
Obama supporters are picking them up faster than they can be ordered, Holmes said. A significant number of those are replacing signs that have been taken, he said.
"I look for this to get worse as Obama continues to do well nationally," Holmes said.
Are the signs black? Are they in the shape of crosses?
Why is Obama wasting money in Oklahoma?
Is McCain waisting this much money in Massachusetts's?
Not that I care, but it would see Oklahoma is a lost cause.
Why shouldn't we have signs in Tulsa? Whether he loses here or not is irrelevant. We ought to be taking part too!
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Why is Obama wasting money in Oklahoma?
Is McCain waisting this much money in Massachusetts's?
Not that I care, but it would see Oklahoma is a lost cause.
I think this is all about supporting grassroots Obama supporters in Oklahoma and not necessarily the Obama campaign strategy.
http://ocolly.com/2008/09/26/presidential-campaigns-overlook-oklahoma/
Jed Green, state Democratic Party director for Obama, has a different perspective on the McCain campaign.
"McCain's camp isn't doing anything," he said.
He said the Democratic Party's primary goal is to work with existing volunteers to register voters. Green said Democrats "have not given up hope but [they] have an uphill climb."
"Obama is working a 50-state strategy," Green said. "The fact that we have an office here says something."
Green also said that his budget for the Obama campaign is comparable to a "well-funded state house race," but would not reveal the amount. Green said the party will use the money to provide literature and yard signs. ----So, there's nothing substantial in the works for Oklahoma, other than the opening of the Obama office on the
People's Republic of Cherry Street....
FYI, I've received emails encouraging me to volunteer to drive to Missouri and Indiana to help the Obama campaign.... here's one....
quote:
Dear USRufnex (name changed to protect the innocent) [:D] --
Drive for Change to Missouri With less than 50 days to go before November 4th, Oklahomans have a major role to play as we gear up for Election Day.
Just last week, over 1,000 Obama supporters gathered at our new Tulsa office to kick off our general election campaign in Oklahoma.
But to win this November, we must continue building our organization across Oklahoma and keep bringing folks into our grassroots movement -- not just here, but all over the country.
That's why we need your help. As an Obama supporter in Oklahoma, you can have a huge impact by traveling to Missouri to talk with voters about why Barack Obama and Joe Biden will bring the change we need.
Our neighbors in Missouri are in an extremely tight and hard-fought race, and help from fired up Oklahomans could make the difference on Election day.
We are organizing special trips for Oklahomans to Missouri to grow our movement there. Will you join us on an upcoming weekend and take a short trip to Missouri to make a big difference for Barack?
John McCain has made it clear that he intends to continue George W. Bush's failed policies. Earlier this week, he repeated his belief that "the fundamentals of our economy are strong."
Here in Oklahoma, you have an important opportunity to persuade undecided voters -- not just at home, but in neighboring states like Missouri -- that Barack and Joe's plans will deliver the real change that our country desperately needs.
That's why we're going to be counting on supporters like you to take a leadership role and travel to Missouri to spread Barack's message of change.
Face-to-face contact with undecided voters is the single most effective way to grow this movement. No experience is required, and we will give you all the resources you need.
Sign up for a Drive for Change to Missouri, and make a short trip to make a big difference:
http://ok.barackobama.com/CometoMO
Thanks,
Jed
Jed Green
Oklahoma State Director
Obama for America
P.S. -- If you can't join us on to volunteer out-of-state, there is important work you can do to grow our movement in Oklahoma and help Barack succeed in November.
There are lots of donors to Obama in Oklahoma, including a certain "bundler" named George Kaiser who has expressed a keen interest in early childhood education.
The point of campaigning in Oklahoma is not to win OK--I am sure he won't win here. But there are pockets that have strong democratic vote--like Tulsa. By creating a strong organization in certain areas, Obama is helping out lower level candidates.
I have to say that the sign theft this time around is worse than I have ever seen. And it is just Obama signs--not Rice, Oliver, etc.... People burning signs, tearing them into bits, spray painting over them. Maybe it isn't racism, but I don't remember this happening with Kerry (though, I have to admit, I don't remember too many people having Kerry signs).
Well, I guess it ain't racism unless the signs "are black" or "in the shape of crosses." [B)]
I drove up to Chicago last week and the AM radio in southeast Missouri (like much of the country) is the domain of either evangelical religion, country music or Rush Limbaugh, who was doing his dead level best to instigate rightwing domestic terrorism by linking Barack Obama to Bill Ayers... he also decided to call longtime Chicago Sun-Times columnist Mary Mitchell a "wuss wimp columnist" and a "racist nutball."
(http://media1.suntimes.com/multimedia/mitchell_mary.jpg_20080212_11_13_43_39-116-165.imageContent)
When will the Daily Oklahoman or Tulsa World coverage include voices like Mary Mitchell's to go with their usual stable of conservatives?!?...
http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/1213415,CST-NWS-mitch10.article
When you step on a pig's tail, it squeals. Rush Limbaugh is a squealer.
Because John McCain and Sarah Palin are losing ground in a contest that they thought was theirs.
And they are losing it to a black man.
Of course, Limbaugh won't say that. Instead, on Thursday he spent his time berating me for saying Palin needs to apologize for inciting crowds that hurled racial epithets at black members of the press.
I'm a "wuss, wimp columnist," Limbaugh says.
So why would a multimillion-dollar squealer use his air time on a "wuss and a wimp?"
The reason Limbaugh is squealing like the pig he is, is because he's the epitome of white privilege.
------------------------------------------------
He can't wrap his small mind around the fact that Barack Obama is kicking McCain's butt in the polls.
To make matters worse, how dare a black woman ask a white woman who is on the GOP ticket to apologize for the inappropriate behavior of her supporters?
------------------------------------------------
But just in case you don't recall who Limbaugh is, he's the fat guy who got hooked on painkillers and had to go to rehab -- sort of like my girl, Amy Winehouse.
As I noted in a column I wrote in 2003 (the real source of the squeals I'm now hearing, since Limbaugh didn't address a single issue I raised in the column he attacked), despite Limbaugh's drug addiction, he was still allowed to return to his popular radio show.
That, my friends, is white privilege.
Limbaugh likes to rant about the "liberal media." What does he call me, a "drive-by journalist?"
Well, maybe I should have driven by his studio in 2003 when he was using his hired help like a common drug mule, and broken that story.
Like most people who get drunk on white privilege, Limbaugh likes to project his bigotry on others.
So now I'm the racist, and he wants me to lose my job. Well, stand in line.
There are people ahead of you who can't stomach the idea that I can say Sarah Palin makes me sick.
She does.
The potential elevation of Palin into the second-highest position in the country shows that we have finally sunk as low as we can go.
------------------------------------------------
While conservatives like the squealer can't get enough of ridiculing black youth for honoring bling bling over intellect, what did they think McCain was doing when he tapped Palin for VP?
It didn't matter that she is probably the most inarticulate politician ever to step up to the microphone. She had the right amount of quirkiness and naughtiness to draw in the "American Idol" and reality TV crowd.
I get it.
But I have a voice, too. And all of Limbaugh's bluster and all the calls of his rabid followers won't be enough to silence me when bigoted bullies are running amuck.
Besides, I'm not running for VP. Limbaugh's sorry-donkey Palin is.
If Limbaugh wants to spend his time trying to bully me, as they say in my neighborhood, bring it.
I like that Mary Mitchell!
Look, for anyone who thinks this race is no different than the rest, I have been planting Democrat's signs in my yard in Maple Ridge for 28 years. This year for the first time, signs in this area have been spray painted with Swastikas, stolen and ripped up. But the McCain signs seem undisturbed. His base is responding and its ugly.
Time for the Republican party to reform itself into something that doesn't resemble hooligans, fringers and Birchers.
(http://outsideinkorea.com/images/content/thats_racist.gif)
/obligatory
I noticed some Obama signs were spray painted in my neighborhood too. Not going to say its racist, because I dont know, but its not right regardless.
All the Obama signs I've seen in Red Fork have remained undisturbed. And I've seen more of them than McCain signs.
Of course, there is a tacit understanding in Red Fork that you run the risk of getting beaten up or worse if you try any tomfoolery on a person's private property.
Obama signs all over my neighborhood were torn up this weekend. [V]
My Obama sign was stolen. I'm putting the new ones in the windows.
None of the Obama signs I've stolen or burned were spray-painted.
Bill Clinton stole my neighbor's Obama sign. He didn't touch my Bob Barr sign.
Mr. Burns
OMG!!
McCain signs are being burned all over the country. It must be racially motivated!
http://www.thebeenews.com/news/story.php?story_id=122376701181256200
http://www.nbc29.com/Global/story.asp?S=9166533
http://www.katu.com/news/30847164.html
EVERYONE PANIC!
^Missing the point: everyone has the right to display their political signs in their own yard without them being vandalized.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
^Missing the point: everyone has the right to display their political signs in their own yard without them being vandalized.
I know if I caught someone vandalizing my property it would be well within my rights to defend my property.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
^Missing the point: everyone has the right to display their political signs in their own yard without them being vandalized.
I think you're missing the point. Try reading the OP. The thread is about vandalized signs = racism. Therefore, since McCain signs have been burned there must be rampant anti-white racism afoot.
No one is arguing that people should be vandalizing signs.
quote:
Mary Mitchell, who couldn't stop saying:"...white privilege..."
That sure makes me feel conciliatory. (cough cough)
And because Obama signs were vandalized with swastikas, the whole Republican party "resemble
hooligans, fringers and Birchers"? A bigot will hate Obama and (possibly) vote for McCain just to serve his nefarious prejudice, but that proves nothing as to the nature of the Party at large. In fact, it indicates nothing - had Gen. Powell run on the Republican ticket, his signs would've been defaced. Would that prove that Democrats are horribly racist?
I'm sure this country has a long, storied history of defacing/stealing campaign paraphernalia. Obama's campaign has exposed many of the sadly stalwart racists, but it's a shame when genuinely race-neutral criticisms (or relatively harmless shenanigans) are branded with the scarlet "R". Throwing around accusations of racism is counterproductive to the efforts of those truly dedicated to equality.
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
Mary Mitchell, who couldn't stop saying:"...white privilege..."
That sure makes me feel conciliatory. (cough cough)
And because Obama signs were vandalized with swastikas, the whole Republican party "resemble hooligans, fringers and Birchers"? A bigot will hate Obama and (possibly) vote for McCain just to serve his nefarious prejudice, but that proves nothing as to the nature of the Party at large. In fact, it indicates nothing - had Gen. Powell run on the Republican ticket, his signs would've been defaced. Would that prove that Democrats are horribly racist?
I'm sure this country has a long, storied history of defacing/stealing campaign paraphernalia. Obama's campaign has exposed many of the sadly stalwart racists, but it's a shame when genuinely race-neutral criticisms (or relatively harmless shenanigans) are branded with the scarlet "R". Throwing around accusations of racism is counterproductive to the efforts of those truly dedicated to equality.
Well said. Idiots exist on both sides who will vote just because of race. Look at the thread I posted today about Obama supporters who were interviewed on the Howard Stern show. Not one of them had a clue as to what they were talking about, but they were fervent Obama supporters. Their answers to the questions showed that there are plenty of people willing to vote for Obama simply based upon race.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
^Missing the point: everyone has the right to display their political signs in their own yard without them being vandalized.
I think you're missing the point. Try reading the OP. The thread is about vandalized signs = racism. Therefore, since McCain signs have been burned there must be rampant anti-white racism afoot.
No one is arguing that people should be vandalizing signs.
Nah, it's prejudice against angry old guys, remember?
It's a geriatric thing. Definitely no gender bias going on w/ his running mate. [B)]
I haven't seen any Obama signs in Tulsa.
What do they look like?
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
Mary Mitchell, who couldn't stop saying:"...white privilege..."
That sure makes me feel conciliatory. (cough cough)
And because Obama signs were vandalized with swastikas, the whole Republican party "resemble hooligans, fringers and Birchers"? A bigot will hate Obama and (possibly) vote for McCain just to serve his nefarious prejudice, but that proves nothing as to the nature of the Party at large. In fact, it indicates nothing - had Gen. Powell run on the Republican ticket, his signs would've been defaced. Would that prove that Democrats are horribly racist?
I'm sure this country has a long, storied history of defacing/stealing campaign paraphernalia. Obama's campaign has exposed many of the sadly stalwart racists, but it's a shame when genuinely race-neutral criticisms (or relatively harmless shenanigans) are branded with the scarlet "R". Throwing around accusations of racism is counterproductive to the efforts of those truly dedicated to equality.
I'm sorry to have said Republicans in general. I only meant Republicans in Oklahoma.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
Mary Mitchell, who couldn't stop saying:"...white privilege..."
That sure makes me feel conciliatory. (cough cough)
And because Obama signs were vandalized with swastikas, the whole Republican party "resemble hooligans, fringers and Birchers"? A bigot will hate Obama and (possibly) vote for McCain just to serve his nefarious prejudice, but that proves nothing as to the nature of the Party at large. In fact, it indicates nothing - had Gen. Powell run on the Republican ticket, his signs would've been defaced. Would that prove that Democrats are horribly racist?
I'm sure this country has a long, storied history of defacing/stealing campaign paraphernalia. Obama's campaign has exposed many of the sadly stalwart racists, but it's a shame when genuinely race-neutral criticisms (or relatively harmless shenanigans) are branded with the scarlet "R". Throwing around accusations of racism is counterproductive to the efforts of those truly dedicated to equality.
Well said. Idiots exist on both sides who will vote just because of race. Look at the thread I posted today about Obama supporters who were interviewed on the Howard Stern show. Not one of them had a clue as to what they were talking about, but they were fervent Obama supporters. Their answers to the questions showed that there are plenty of people willing to vote for Obama simply based upon race.
I sure wish I could find this interview I saw the other day.
It was of a guy from Ohio; they were essentially asking him who he was voting for and his answer in a nutshell was 'not Obama'.
He was going to vote for McCain, but when pressed on what benefits McCain would bring to him that Obama couldn't, he said 'I don't know..he's not Obama, that's all the matters'.
I was stunned. Not knowing the issues the person you're going to vote for in this campaign is, in my eyes, essentially rubber-stamping the Republican party, as much in the same vain as voting for Obama singly for race would be rubber-stamping nominees of color only.
Whats funny is that on election day at 7:00 on the button, they will paint Oklahoma red on the election map in favor of McCain.
Then the news anchor will go back to discussing the clear landslide victory for Obama as it continues to develop throughout the evening.
If the rednecks want to do some damage, they better travel to Ohio, Florida, and California and started stealing Obama signs from there, because around here it doesn't really matter.
Oklahoma won't go for Obama, and Obama WILL be the next President.
quote:
I'm sorry to have said Republicans in general. I only meant Republicans in Oklahoma.
Sounds like Maple Ridge needs an enema. Why don't you get right on that?
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
I'm sorry to have said Republicans in general. I only meant Republicans in Oklahoma.
Sounds like Maple Ridge needs an enema. Why don't you get right on that?
I'm sure in your world that's quite clever and meaningful. However, I can't figure out what you mean or why you posted such an infantile remark. I could be glib and remark on your choice of orifice identification. Potty humor is apparently something you fringe guys relate to.
Instead I'll just note that the level of political discourse here is not only getting very boring but increasingly childish. What would I expect from a community that is out of step with the rest of the country and will no doubt suffer more during the next 8 years because of it?
Don't forget to point the spray can towards the sign.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
I'm sorry to have said Republicans in general. I only meant Republicans in Oklahoma.
Sounds like Maple Ridge needs an enema. Why don't you get right on that?
I'm sure in your world that's quite clever and meaningful. However, I can't figure out what you mean or why you posted such an infantile remark. I could be glib and remark on your choice of orifice identification. Potty humor is apparently something you fringe guys relate to.
Instead I'll just note that the level of political discourse here is not only getting very boring but increasingly childish. What would I expect from a community that is out of step with the rest of the country and will no doubt suffer more during the next 8 years because of it?
Don't forget to point the spray can towards the sign.
I believe it was a paraphrased Jack Nicholson line from Batman. "This town needs an enema."
quote:
I meant only Republicans in Oklahoma
Funny you'd bemoan the ever-devolving "level of political discourse here" then make things worse with yet another inane, bigoted generalization. If you have no intention (or limited ability) to read and understand somebody else's viewpoint, at least 'somebody else' can find amusement in a little puerile sniping. What's that Rule of Thumb concerning internet forums...something about the number of posts required before somebody gets called a Nazi?
Congratulations, you're ahead of the curve.
My "serious" participation in this fine thread ended when you refused to respond after I called you out on ridiculous conclusions.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
Mary Mitchell, who couldn't stop saying:"...white privilege..."
That sure makes me feel conciliatory. (cough cough)
And because Obama signs were vandalized with swastikas, the whole Republican party "resemble hooligans, fringers and Birchers"? A bigot will hate Obama and (possibly) vote for McCain just to serve his nefarious prejudice, but that proves nothing as to the nature of the Party at large. In fact, it indicates nothing - had Gen. Powell run on the Republican ticket, his signs would've been defaced. Would that prove that Democrats are horribly racist?
I'm sure this country has a long, storied history of defacing/stealing campaign paraphernalia. Obama's campaign has exposed many of the sadly stalwart racists, but it's a shame when genuinely race-neutral criticisms (or relatively harmless shenanigans) are branded with the scarlet "R". Throwing around accusations of racism is counterproductive to the efforts of those truly dedicated to equality.
I'm sorry to have said Republicans in general. I only meant Republicans in Oklahoma.
quoted for truth.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I noticed some Obama signs were spray painted in my neighborhood too. Not going to say its racist, because I dont know, but its not right regardless.
I was brokenhearted to see the picture of Christopher Walken on the electrical box at the corner of 111th and Elwood in Jenks was defaced with spray paint.
A-holes.
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
I meant only Republicans in Oklahoma
Funny you'd bemoan the ever-devolving "level of political discourse here" then make things worse with yet another inane, bigoted generalization. If you have no intention (or limited ability) to read and understand somebody else's viewpoint, at least 'somebody else' can find amusement in a little puerile sniping. What's that Rule of Thumb concerning internet forums...something about the number of posts required before somebody gets called a Nazi?
Congratulations, you're ahead of the curve.
My "serious" participation in this fine thread ended when you refused to respond after I called you out on ridiculous conclusions.
Inane? Bigoted? Puerile? Nazi? I don't know how I offended you unless it was referring to the Repubs base as resembling fringers, hooligans and Birchers (that was just from observing a Palin rally btw). Maybe you identify with one of those groups?
You could have easily taken each one of those names and called me out on why I chose them and defended your party, but you didn't or can't. Instead you went with the boilerplate stuff. Boring. Devolved.
Anyway, you read a lot of stuff into a simple post. I have to take an artist's position on your rant. "At least I elicited an emotion."
edit: I reread this thread trying to find where I was bigoted, inane, fascist etc. and came up empty. But I did find this rather telling quote you made, "it's a shame when genuinely race-neutral criticisms (or relatively harmless shenanigans) are branded with the scarlet "R"."
Painting a swastika on an Obama sign in someones front yard is just a harmless shenanigan? My neighbors young children wanted to know why someone had messed up their front yard and what it meant. Was it just a teaching opportunity for their parents? Like when they see "F#*k Obama" or "Bush Liar" spray painted on a wall? Why did we even enact vandalism laws then?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
I meant only Republicans in Oklahoma
Funny you'd bemoan the ever-devolving "level of political discourse here" then make things worse with yet another inane, bigoted generalization. If you have no intention (or limited ability) to read and understand somebody else's viewpoint, at least 'somebody else' can find amusement in a little puerile sniping. What's that Rule of Thumb concerning internet forums...something about the number of posts required before somebody gets called a Nazi?
Congratulations, you're ahead of the curve.
My "serious" participation in this fine thread ended when you refused to respond after I called you out on ridiculous conclusions.
Inane? Bigoted? Puerile? Nazi? I don't know how I offended you unless it was referring to the Repubs base as resembling fringers, hooligans and Birchers (that was just from observing a Palin rally btw). Maybe you identify with one of those groups?
I guess you've selectively ignored the people at Obama rallies wearing "Palin is a C*nt" t-shirts.
If you'd like to see "fringers" just stop by the dailykos for a while. Here is a little sampling of the hate there:
I support Obama, but I disagree on some major issues. One is that we need to use major authoritarian measures against wingnuts and theocrats to save this country. That in particular includes deprogramming institutions and a Gitmo like camp to deal with the worst wingnuts. These people should be removed from general society and need to be shut up.
I have believed this for years, but the behavior of the wingnuts at the McCain and Palin rallies further underscores the need to take harsh action against these people. Lincoln and FDR had to bend the Constitution at times, and I hope Obama has the guts to do so too to deal with these third rate creatures.Each party has their nutjobs. Please stop pretending that the Democrats have a corner on the "fairness" market.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
I meant only Republicans in Oklahoma
Funny you'd bemoan the ever-devolving "level of political discourse here" then make things worse with yet another inane, bigoted generalization. If you have no intention (or limited ability) to read and understand somebody else's viewpoint, at least 'somebody else' can find amusement in a little puerile sniping. What's that Rule of Thumb concerning internet forums...something about the number of posts required before somebody gets called a Nazi?
Congratulations, you're ahead of the curve.
My "serious" participation in this fine thread ended when you refused to respond after I called you out on ridiculous conclusions.
Inane? Bigoted? Puerile? Nazi? I don't know how I offended you unless it was referring to the Repubs base as resembling fringers, hooligans and Birchers (that was just from observing a Palin rally btw). Maybe you identify with one of those groups?
I guess you've selectively ignored the people at Obama rallies wearing "Palin is a C*nt" t-shirts.
If you'd like to see "fringers" just stop by the dailykos for a while. Here is a little sampling of the hate there:
I support Obama, but I disagree on some major issues. One is that we need to use major authoritarian measures against wingnuts and theocrats to save this country. That in particular includes deprogramming institutions and a Gitmo like camp to deal with the worst wingnuts. These people should be removed from general society and need to be shut up.
I have believed this for years, but the behavior of the wingnuts at the McCain and Palin rallies further underscores the need to take harsh action against these people. Lincoln and FDR had to bend the Constitution at times, and I hope Obama has the guts to do so too to deal with these third rate creatures.
Each party has their nutjobs. Please stop pretending that the Democrats have a corner on the "fairness" market.
You guys are stretching. I haven't seen those shirts except online, nor have I heard anyone yell out treason, kill him, or traitor at Obama rallies. Have you seen the guy with the Curious George puppet? He's a regular at M/P rallies. Seems like the volunteers could stop such crap. I don't read KOS and I don't listen to Limbaugh. I know stupid fringe people exist on all sides.
However, they don't come into my neighborhood and systematically deface McCain signs with swastikas. To ignore that racism and base vulgarity is involved with this race is just naive. Yes, there is sexism too. I saw a great cartoon on this forum of Hillary going down on Obama. Ha, ha.
There is no defense for either yet there is no denying that the M/P ticket has engendered more of it from their volunteers.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
I meant only Republicans in Oklahoma
Funny you'd bemoan the ever-devolving "level of political discourse here" then make things worse with yet another inane, bigoted generalization. If you have no intention (or limited ability) to read and understand somebody else's viewpoint, at least 'somebody else' can find amusement in a little puerile sniping. What's that Rule of Thumb concerning internet forums...something about the number of posts required before somebody gets called a Nazi?
Congratulations, you're ahead of the curve.
My "serious" participation in this fine thread ended when you refused to respond after I called you out on ridiculous conclusions.
Inane? Bigoted? Puerile? Nazi? I don't know how I offended you unless it was referring to the Repubs base as resembling fringers, hooligans and Birchers (that was just from observing a Palin rally btw). Maybe you identify with one of those groups?
I guess you've selectively ignored the people at Obama rallies wearing "Palin is a C*nt" t-shirts.
If you'd like to see "fringers" just stop by the dailykos for a while. Here is a little sampling of the hate there:
I support Obama, but I disagree on some major issues. One is that we need to use major authoritarian measures against wingnuts and theocrats to save this country. That in particular includes deprogramming institutions and a Gitmo like camp to deal with the worst wingnuts. These people should be removed from general society and need to be shut up.
I have believed this for years, but the behavior of the wingnuts at the McCain and Palin rallies further underscores the need to take harsh action against these people. Lincoln and FDR had to bend the Constitution at times, and I hope Obama has the guts to do so too to deal with these third rate creatures.
Each party has their nutjobs. Please stop pretending that the Democrats have a corner on the "fairness" market.
You guys are stretching. I haven't seen those shirts except online, nor have I heard anyone yell out treason, kill him, or traitor at Obama rallies. Have you seen the guy with the Curious George puppet? He's a regular at M/P rallies. Seems like the volunteers could stop such crap. I don't read KOS and I don't listen to Limbaugh. I know stupid fringe people exist on all sides.
However, they don't come into my neighborhood and systematically deface McCain signs with swastikas. To ignore that racism and base vulgarity is involved with this race is just naive. Yes, there is sexism too. I saw a great cartoon on this forum of Hillary going down on Obama. Ha, ha.
There is no defense for either yet there is no denying that the M/P ticket has engendered more of it from their volunteers.
And it's not even so much that, as it is the nominees lack of action on the Republican side that makes it all the more worse. You hear it when McCain or Palin is talking at an event, and the only times I've ever heard it being struck down by the speaker was when the lady indicated she thought Obama was an Arab, which McCain, to his defense, repudiated. He also told the gentleman in Minnesota who said he was 'scared of an Obama presidency', that he didn't have to be scared, to the outcry of boos of HIS OWN SUPPORTERS.
I've seen Obama shut that kind of stuff down. Even when a reference to McCain drew boos at a recent speech, he shook his head and said 'no' and made a reference about getting out to vote for change.
The inaction of McCain's campaign to repudiate these people should concern any American. Their campaign is allowing this to happen to fan the flame of divisiveness that exists at the late stage of this election.
McCain has no other course of action now that the economy is front and center on everyone's mind.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
There is no defense for either yet there is no denying that the M/P ticket has engendered more of it from their volunteers.
Nonsense. Go read the hate on the dailykos. There aren't any M/P supporters on that site; they are all Obama supporters. Unless you think that only hate at rallies is important.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
There is no defense for either yet there is no denying that the M/P ticket has engendered more of it from their volunteers.
Nonsense. Go read the hate on the dailykos. There aren't any M/P supporters on that site; they are all Obama supporters. Unless you think that only hate at rallies is important.
I have.
I don't have Red State and DailyKos on my regular reading list. But I bounce over there from time to time to check on the pulse of both sides.
And there's no comparison. The brain power at Red State is lacking compared to DailyKos. In fact, the brain power at conservative sites has turned horrible in the last few years. Sure, each side has its dunderheads. But the conservatives have so many MORE of them. We're talking people who can't even write a coherent sentence. It's sad.
I'm not sure why this happened. For a long time, conservatives and the GOP were supposed to be the party of ideas. Now it seems to be they're a bunch of idealogues with little self-critical thinking or independence (David Frum and Daniel Larison are exceptions). I think it was Frum who said (paraphrased) that the Republicans wanted to be a big-tent party, and now it's a yurt.
I blame the Christianists and the crazies. Others blame power-hungry goofs like Tom DeLay and Newt Gingrich. Whatever it is, the GOP is a shell of its former self. And it'd better make some changes -- fast.
That's my opinion. Yours may vary.
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by waterboy
There is no defense for either yet there is no denying that the M/P ticket has engendered more of it from their volunteers.
Nonsense. Go read the hate on the dailykos. There aren't any M/P supporters on that site; they are all Obama supporters. Unless you think that only hate at rallies is important.
I have.
I don't have Red State and DailyKos on my regular reading list. But I bounce over there from time to time to check on the pulse of both sides.
And there's no comparison. The brain power at Red State is lacking compared to DailyKos. In fact, the brain power at conservative sites has turned horrible in the last few years. Sure, each side has its dunderheads. But the conservatives have so many MORE of them. We're talking people who can't even write a coherent sentence. It's sad.
I'm not sure why this happened. For a long time, conservatives and the GOP were supposed to be the party of ideas. Now it seems to be they're a bunch of idealogues with little self-critical thinking or independence (David Frum and Daniel Larison are exceptions). I think it was Frum who said (paraphrased) that the Republicans wanted to be a big-tent party, and now it's a yurt.
I blame the Christianists and the crazies. Others blame power-hungry goofs like Tom DeLay and Newt Gingrich. Whatever it is, the GOP is a shell of its former self. And it'd better make some changes -- fast.
That's my opinion. Yours may vary.
When did the topic of conversation change from hateful speech to the intelligence of posters on partisan websites?
BTW, the words "brain power" and dailykos don't mix. Unless you think the website that fabricated the story about Palin's kid as "brain power."
Hate sites from either side should be scoffed at. Why would you legitimize them. I refuse to read anything from sites like worldnetdaily, redstate, powerline, or any other rabid partisan web site. Why is it that you can't?
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We're talking people who can't even write a coherent sentence.
Please. Does the name FOTD, resident dailykos poster, ring any bells?
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Originally posted by iplaw
QuoteOriginally posted by rwarn17588
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When did the topic of conversation change from hateful speech to the intelligence of posters on partisan websites?
BTW, the words "brain power" and dailykos don't mix. Unless you think the website that fabricated the story about Palin's kid as "brain power."
Hate sites from either side should be scoffed at. Why would you legitimize them. I refuse to read anything from sites like worldnetdaily, redstate, powerline, or any other rabid partisan web site. Why is it that you can't?
As I said (which you must have overlooked), I read them to get the pulse of both sides. Reading them is not the same as endorsing.
It's not just DailyKos asking questions about Palin's kid. Andrew Sullivan (you admit reading his book) is, too. But that's because he's an advocate of releasing all health records of presidential and vice presidential candidates. Joe Biden hasn't released his. Sullivan has been consistent and vocal about this; he wants public disclosure of all the candidates.
As for brain power, intelligence makes you use your reason to sort things out rather than blind, unthinking hatred. So, yes, it's important. And relevant.
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
As for brain power, intelligence makes you use your reason to sort things out rather than blind, unthinking hatred. So, yes, it's important. And relevant.
Yes, and it's a cheap, pathetic line of reasoning and hardly "intelligent" to draw the conclusions that you have. I could cull through the countless hours of intellectual diharrea on the Dailykos and provide you with thousands of incidents of "unthinking hatred" and "blindness" but it would be a monumental waste of time for all involved.
I see little "reasoning" from the left and even less logical discourse. You're is the party of emotion, not mine.
Such is the life of a partisan, from either side.
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
As for brain power, intelligence makes you use your reason to sort things out rather than blind, unthinking hatred. So, yes, it's important. And relevant.
Yes, and it's a cheap, pathetic line of reasoning and hardly "intelligent" to draw the conclusions that you have. I could cull through the countless hours of intellectual diharrea on the Dailykos and provide you with thousands of incidents of "unthinking hatred" and "blindness" but it would be a monumental waste of time for all involved.
I see little "reasoning" from the left and even less logical discourse. You're is the party of emotion, not mine.
Such is the life of a partisan, from either side.
And you're not a partisan? Really? [}:)]
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
As for brain power, intelligence makes you use your reason to sort things out rather than blind, unthinking hatred. So, yes, it's important. And relevant.
Yes, and it's a cheap, pathetic line of reasoning and hardly "intelligent" to draw the conclusions that you have. I could cull through the countless hours of intellectual diharrea on the Dailykos and provide you with thousands of incidents of "unthinking hatred" and "blindness" but it would be a monumental waste of time for all involved.
I see little "reasoning" from the left and even less logical discourse. You're is the party of emotion, not mine.
Such is the life of a partisan, from either side.
And you're not a partisan? Really? [}:)]
Did I say I wasn't? I think my last sentence in the previous post speaks for itself. I make no apologies for being conservative.
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
As for brain power, intelligence makes you use your reason to sort things out rather than blind, unthinking hatred. So, yes, it's important. And relevant.
Yes, and it's a cheap, pathetic line of reasoning and hardly "intelligent" to draw the conclusions that you have. I could cull through the countless hours of intellectual diharrea on the Dailykos and provide you with thousands of incidents of "unthinking hatred" and "blindness" but it would be a monumental waste of time for all involved.
I see little "reasoning" from the left and even less logical discourse. You're is the party of emotion, not mine.
Such is the life of a partisan, from either side.
But I see you didn't address the aforementioned Sullivan, who is a conservative and whose book you read.
Like I said, I don't go to DailyKos or Red State regularly. But there is intelligent stuff there that can be sifted through. It's just with Red State, you need a bigger sifter.
I'm not the type who throws the baby out with the bathwater. I like to read a lot of points of view. Isn't that part of the "free flow of ideas" that the Founders advocated?
There is a difference between the free flow of "ideas" and the free flow of "smear." I'm not interested in the latter. If you don't have any facts to back up an assertion and it's simply provided to damage the person, it's not worth entertaining. I.E. Obama isn't a citizen, Obama is a Muslim, etc.
As far as Andrew Sullivan, I did read one of his books, but that doesn't mean I implicity believe and/or agree with everything he says. I don't see how that's difficult to understand.
Lastly, I don't think it's any of our business what's in their medical records. Wasn't it liberals that fought for "privacy" laws like HIPPA?
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Originally posted by iplaw
There is a difference between the free flow of "ideas" and the free flow of "smear."
And who would make that judgment?
[for the seventh post on this page, from Waterboy]
You're right to criticize that quote - I switched gears mid paragraph but very clumsily. To often, I hear echos of "you're a racist" when Obama is criticized. It is those kind of things I referred to, but didn't make at all clear. As for stealing/burning/mangling signs, that's destructive but not necessarily racist - even if the candidate is a minority, contrary to Ivan Holmes' statement.
I do not identify with any of the groups you mentioned while trimming your anti-OkieRepublican brush. Because I don't have a problem with windmills, I have no interest in exploring how you rationalize your prejudice either.
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Don't forget to point the spray can towards the sign.
Thanks for the advice, but it's misdirected. If you were maybe writing to the larger audience, I doubt the skinheads read this forum anyway.
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
As for brain power, intelligence makes you use your reason to sort things out rather than blind, unthinking hatred. So, yes, it's important. And relevant.
Yes, and it's a cheap, pathetic line of reasoning and hardly "intelligent" to draw the conclusions that you have. I could cull through the countless hours of intellectual diharrea on the Dailykos and provide you with thousands of incidents of "unthinking hatred" and "blindness" but it would be a monumental waste of time for all involved.
I see little "reasoning" from the left and even less logical discourse. You're is the party of emotion, not mine.
Such is the life of a partisan, from either side.
But I see you didn't address the aforementioned Sullivan, who is a conservative and whose book you read.
Like I said, I don't go to DailyKos or Red State regularly. But there is intelligent stuff there that can be sifted through. It's just with Red State, you need a bigger sifter.
I'm not the type who throws the baby out with the bathwater. I like to read a lot of points of view. Isn't that part of the "free flow of ideas" that the Founders advocated?
Two things about Sullivan:
A) He's not an American citizen, so I really don't care what he thinks should and should not be required of a Presidential candidate.
B) There's very little resembling a conservative in him. Just because he supported Bush in 2000 doesn't mean he's a conservative. His social views and views on the WOT are nowhere close to core conservatism. He might be a fiscally-conservative liberal, but that's about the closest he makes it.
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
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Originally posted by iplaw
There is a difference between the free flow of "ideas" and the free flow of "smear."
And who would make that judgment?
Leave it to a liberal to not know the difference between a smear and a legitimate idea.
If you bothered to read my post I think I set forth decent criteria for what deciding what smear is. Accusations without evidence are a good place to start.
I don't think smear should be outlawed, but it certainly shoudn't be legitimized.
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
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Originally posted by iplaw
There is a difference between the free flow of "ideas" and the free flow of "smear."
And who would make that judgment?
Leave it to a liberal to not know the difference between a smear and a legitimate idea.
If you bothered to read my post I think I set forth decent criteria for what deciding what smear is. Accusations without evidence are a good place to start.
I don't think smear should be outlawed, but it certainly shoudn't be legitimized.
That's a legitimate question. Who does decide?
You don't have to deride me in asking it. That's your trouble; you impulsively tend to go off on a name-calling rant. That tends to hurt one's credibility.
Back to topic: I'm no fan of the Palin's kid storyline. But it was borne out of some very peculiar facts. And a lot of the so-called "smears" were actually genuine questions about that still-strange episode. I don't think curiosity is a bad thing -- especially if the facts revealed tell a lot about a candidate.
And I'm on Sullivan's side. Unleash the medical records of the candidates who could run the country. Sure, law protects medical privacy. But when you're talking about those who hold the future of our country in their hands, a bit more transparency is prudent.
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Originally posted by rwarn17588
That's a legitimate question. Who does decide?
You don't have to deride me in asking it. That's your trouble; you impulsively tend to go off on a name-calling rant. That tends to hurt one's credibility.
Back to topic: I'm no fan of the Palin's kid storyline. But it was borne out of some very peculiar facts. And a lot of the so-called "smears" were actually genuine questions about that still-strange episode. I don't think curiosity is a bad thing -- especially if the facts revealed tell a lot about a candidate.
And I'm on Sullivan's side. Unleash the medical records of the candidates who could run the country. Sure, law protects medical privacy. But when you're talking about those who hold the future of our country in their hands, a bit more transparency is prudent.
I gave you a sensible answer to the question which you summarily ignored, twice. Why should I bother a third time?
Also, I didn't know the word "liberal" was namecalling...
The story about Palin's kid is disgusting. The fact that you don't see it as such is sad, but not unexpected. If it were directed against Obama's kids I'm sure your reaction would be quite different. On a related note, people hiding behind the "genuine questions" crap are just like the 9/11 truthers who justify their lies and distortions by hiding behind the same "just asking questions" line.
As for medical records, what gives you or anyone else the right to discriminate against someone who may have a chronic disease? Are cancer patients, survivors or people with HIV unfit to run for president or VP?
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Originally posted by iplaw
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As for medical records, what gives you or anyone else the right to discriminate against someone who may have a chronic disease? Are cancer patients, survivors or people with HIV unfit to run for president or VP?
Easy question.
I hold presidential candidates to a higher standard, including health. I expect my candidates to be in reasonably good shape when they take office. It's not good for the country for a president-elect to go William Henry Harrison on us. I'm sure such medical records, if released, will give a reasonable picture to decide for ourselves on his/her fitness for office. I hardly think that's unreasonable.
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Originally posted by buckeye
[for the seventh post on this page, from Waterboy]
You're right to criticize that quote - I switched gears mid paragraph but very clumsily. To often, I hear echos of "you're a racist" when Obama is criticized. It is those kind of things I referred to, but didn't make at all clear. As for stealing/burning/mangling signs, that's destructive but not necessarily racist - even if the candidate is a minority, contrary to Ivan Holmes' statement.
I do not identify with any of the groups you mentioned while trimming your anti-OkieRepublican brush. Because I don't have a problem with windmills, I have no interest in exploring how you rationalize your prejudice either.
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Don't forget to point the spray can towards the sign.
Thanks for the advice, but it's misdirected. If you were maybe writing to the larger audience, I doubt the skinheads read this forum anyway.
I just can't agree with the defacing thing. There are laws about it for a reason. And unless you've been the target of racial vandalism like a swastika, spray painted taunts or vicious phone calls it is easy to say they're not racist. They are all in the same category.
Our lock step conservative republicans in OK have made us the laughing stock of the country. I read posts on other sites that describe us in much worse terms than I used. They simply don't understand what's happening in Utah, Idaho and Oklahoma. Even Texas is light red! I'm a native Okie so I don't hesitate to point out the truth. We are poorly educated, subject to conspiratorial thinking (thus the John Birch and KKK influence), fundamentally religious and quietly intolerant.
In most states with large rural populations, the urban areas balance that off with more sophistication and progressive attitudes. Minneapolis balances off southern Minnesota. Des Moines and Ames balance off Western Iowa. Not in Oklahoma. Tulsa is by far the most sophisticated city in the state and the most likely to rate Bushism highly. We tolerate Inhofe and Sullivan destroying otherwise decent people who want to bring us forward.
We have a brand here that won't serve us well when the Republican party reassembles itself into something to match new challenges. The republican friends I have cannot identify with whats happened in OK in the last decade.