My son attending public schools brought home 3 new testaments from school the other day. He said they were distributing them to kids who wanted them. I pressed more as this concerned me. He said that they were distributing them from within the doors, as if they were set up at a table or something in the cafeteria. This was on Wednesday, which was when some of the kids locally participated at "meet you at the flagpole." I thought the meet you at the flagpole thing is supposed to take place outside of school and before school starts. So my question is why would anyone be distributing new testaments inside the school during school hours? I called the school and they said they permit the Gideons to do this. They said they (the school) does not distribute them, but the students are permitted to approach them and take the books. I asked if they permit Catholics, Jews, Mormons, or Muslims to do the same and they said no. So how can an institution claim to be secular if they are permitted to pick and chose which religions set up tables to distribute doctrine in the cafeteria?
I read about this in the Tulsa World. I am surprised they did this Bible distribution this day and age, but personally I see nothing wrong with it as long as other religions are given the same opportunity. The World article listed strict guidelines they have to follow regarding location, times, etc. for distribution of Bibles and other religious publications at school.
When I was a kid at John Paul Jones Elementary in the mid 1960s, we were given small, pocket New Testaments at school if we wanted them. This was after the Supreme Court ruling on manadatory school prayer. I don't think any of we kids were brainwashed or corrupted by this, and I grew up to have a strong distaste for most all organized religion. Don't blow this out of proportion; I would just ignore it. Your child will grow up to hopefully have a mind of his own and make his own religious choices. This Bible distribution won't influence that.
I still have my little red Gideons Bible from school somewhere, in a box is a closet.
Yes, they handed them to us right before graduation (this was back in 2002). We could then decide if we wanted to keep them or toss them. I just put mine in with all the other graduation crap that I got.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I read about this in the Tulsa World. I am surprised they did this Bible distribution this day and age, but personally I see nothing wrong with it as long as other religions are given the same opportunity. The World article listed strict guidelines they have to follow regarding location, times, etc. for distribution of Bibles and other religious publications at school.
When I was a kid at John Paul Jones Elementary in the mid 1960s, we were given small, pocket New Testaments at school if we wanted them. This was after the Supreme Court ruling on manadatory school prayer. I don't think any of we kids were brainwashed or corrupted by this, and I grew up to have a strong distaste for most all organized religion. Don't blow this out of proportion; I would just ignore it. Your child will grow up to hopefully have a mind of his own and make his own religious choices. This Bible distribution won't influence that.
I still have my little red Gideons Bible from school somewhere, in a box is a closet.
I would be okay with it if students were exposed to other religions pitching their doctrine, but if the superintendent picks and choses, then he is attempting to influence the kids towards a certain theology. And that I have a problem with.
So what did he do with the three New Testaments?
quote:
Originally posted by stymied
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I read about this in the Tulsa World. I am surprised they did this Bible distribution this day and age, but personally I see nothing wrong with it as long as other religions are given the same opportunity. The World article listed strict guidelines they have to follow regarding location, times, etc. for distribution of Bibles and other religious publications at school.
When I was a kid at John Paul Jones Elementary in the mid 1960s, we were given small, pocket New Testaments at school if we wanted them. This was after the Supreme Court ruling on manadatory school prayer. I don't think any of we kids were brainwashed or corrupted by this, and I grew up to have a strong distaste for most all organized religion. Don't blow this out of proportion; I would just ignore it. Your child will grow up to hopefully have a mind of his own and make his own religious choices. This Bible distribution won't influence that.
I still have my little red Gideons Bible from school somewhere, in a box is a closet.
I would be okay with it if students were exposed to other religions pitching their doctrine, but if the superintendent picks and choses, then he is attempting to influence the kids towards a certain theology. And that I have a problem with.
I would too, but I don't think that is the case. These recent Bible distributions are initiated by the Gideons, not at the request of school leadership. The Gideons have been in this "business" for 100+ years. Non-Christian groups can do the same if they have the funds and are so inclined. Personally, I don't think public school is the place for distribution of any religious material except in the course of academic study, but it is their right if they follow proper guidelines.
Why did he take three of them?
Sounds like you got a real religious nutcase on your hands.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsacyclist
So what did he do with the three New Testaments?
He still has them. I didn't make him throw them away or anything. The New Testament is part of our family's religious doctrine, but that is not the point. Other works are also part of our doctrine, so I don't want him to get the impression that some of our doctrine is okay and other parts are not. He did try to give one of them to his grandmother, who is an atheist. That was pretty funny.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Why did he take three of them?
Sounds like you got a real religious nutcase on your hands.
From a true example of one!
Ipy, do you support prayer in public school? Proselytizing?
If not, why not? Your party line supports it.
Handing out bibles to kids who want them is bad? I don't understand why this would upset anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Radar
Handing out bibles to kids who want them is bad? I don't understand why this would upset anyone.
How about handing out Qurans to kids that want them? Or Torahs? How about Book of Mormons. Would any of those upset you? I am sure some kids would want some of those. When we go to the fair my kids want all the stupid paper crap, bumper stickers, bags, etc. that is free. Kids love free stuff. How many little kids do you know that want bibles because they want to read them? They take them because they are free or they see their friends getting them. I think it is a clever way to get the kids to do their proselytizing for them-put a big stack of them in front of kids. While the kids take one, they say, "do you know anyone whoe would like one too?"
It amazes me what fires people up...
Are you involved in the PTA or active in the school system? I can be our schools have bigger problems than Gideons handing out Bibles to kids.
Where I agree with you is that if the school did something wrong or broke the law, they should pay the consequences. That being said, I think admin probably covered their bases.
quote:
Originally posted by Radar
Handing out bibles to kids who want them is bad? I don't understand why this would upset anyone.
Because it's unconstitutional....
Now, go hang with Klinger and be a good dolt.
The school system presents liberal atheistic garbage to the students all day long (yes even in Oklahoma). A little Bible reading is probably the only thing that keeps some of them from going crazy.
FOTD, it is not unconstitutional. It is unconstitutional for a public school to promote a religion - exactly where that line is drawn is a subject of much and ongoing debate. HOWEVER, if a passive 3rd party hands out books it is probably not over the line.
UNLESS, they actively exclude other groups from doing so (ie. they requested the same right and agreed similar terms and were denied). In which the school is being selective on which religious message it will allow to be promoted and hence, it is encouraging a particular religion. Also, generally, during school hours such activities are frowned upon - but it would not make it per se unconstitutional.
And from a personal vantage; I have no problem with it so long as others are free to hand out materials also. This includes Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Atheists, and so on. If you are free to hand out a book proclaiming your god(s), someone else should have the same right or even hand out materials proclaiming there are no gods at all. Similarly, I'd be interested to see if this is a "public forum" for distribution of other information to the kids.
Seems like an invitation of trouble to me.
- - -
While on the subject, my son comes home frequently from public schools and tells Billy/Johnny told him something or other about Jesus. I just chuckle, but imagine how pissed parents would be if some kid told their snowflake that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet of God and his word was more enlightened than Jesus. Most people are happy to have religion in school, so long as it is theirs.
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
The school system presents liberal atheistic garbage to the students all day long (yes even in Oklahoma). A little Bible reading is probably the only thing that keeps some of them from going crazy.
"liberal atheistic garbage" You are talking about science, aren't you?
I little bible reading keeps them brainwashed.
If it's TPS they probably can't read it anyway...
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
If it's TPS they probably can't read it anyway...
Didn't BA and Union get added to the government watch list for bad schools a month or so back? My son's TPS school is not on the list, and actually above the 80% mark for reading. I'm guessing you've had no contact with TPS.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FOTD, it is not unconstitutional. It is unconstitutional for a public school to promote a religion - exactly where that line is drawn is a subject of much and ongoing debate. HOWEVER, if a passive 3rd party hands out books it is probably not over the line.
UNLESS, they actively exclude other groups from doing so (ie. they requested the same right and agreed similar terms and were denied). In which the school is being selective on which religious message it will allow to be promoted and hence, it is encouraging a particular religion. Also, generally, during school hours such activities are frowned upon - but it would not make it per se unconstitutional.
And from a personal vantage; I have no problem with it so long as others are free to hand out materials also. This includes Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Atheists, and so on. If you are free to hand out a book proclaiming your god(s), someone else should have the same right or even hand out materials proclaiming there are no gods at all. Similarly, I'd be interested to see if this is a "public forum" for distribution of other information to the kids.
Seems like an invitation of trouble to me.
- - -
While on the subject, my son comes home frequently from public schools and tells Billy/Johnny told him something or other about Jesus. I just chuckle, but imagine how pissed parents would be if some kid told their snowflake that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet of God and his word was more enlightened than Jesus. Most people are happy to have religion in school, so long as it is theirs.
OK. Then the devil will be distributing pamphlets promoting the end of civilization in 2012 based on Aztec and Mayan teachings.
That oughta scare the Jesus out of those intolerant kids.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FOTD, it is not unconstitutional. It is unconstitutional for a public school to promote a religion - exactly where that line is drawn is a subject of much and ongoing debate. HOWEVER, if a passive 3rd party hands out books it is probably not over the line.
UNLESS, they actively exclude other groups from doing so (ie. they requested the same right and agreed similar terms and were denied). In which the school is being selective on which religious message it will allow to be promoted and hence, it is encouraging a particular religion. Also, generally, during school hours such activities are frowned upon - but it would not make it per se unconstitutional.
And from a personal vantage; I have no problem with it so long as others are free to hand out materials also. This includes Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Atheists, and so on. If you are free to hand out a book proclaiming your god(s), someone else should have the same right or even hand out materials proclaiming there are no gods at all. Similarly, I'd be interested to see if this is a "public forum" for distribution of other information to the kids.
Seems like an invitation of trouble to me.
- - -
While on the subject, my son comes home frequently from public schools and tells Billy/Johnny told him something or other about Jesus. I just chuckle, but imagine how pissed parents would be if some kid told their snowflake that Mohamed was the last and greatest prophet of God and his word was more enlightened than Jesus. Most people are happy to have religion in school, so long as it is theirs.
OK. Then the devil will be distributing pamphlets promoting the end of civilization in 2012 based on Aztec and Mayan teachings.
That oughta scare the Jesus out of those intolerant kids.
After all the be tolerent of others and other BS that is pushed and promoted... They just go and kill themselves when they can't deal with the real World that is different than what is portrayed by adults in school
quote:
Originally posted by stymied
My son attending public schools brought home 3 new testaments from school the other day. He said they were distributing them to kids who wanted them. I pressed more as this concerned me. He said that they were distributing them from within the doors, as if they were set up at a table or something in the cafeteria. This was on Wednesday, which was when some of the kids locally participated at "meet you at the flagpole." I thought the meet you at the flagpole thing is supposed to take place outside of school and before school starts. So my question is why would anyone be distributing new testaments inside the school during school hours? I called the school and they said they permit the Gideons to do this. They said they (the school) does not distribute them, but the students are permitted to approach them and take the books. I asked if they permit Catholics, Jews, Mormons, or Muslims to do the same and they said no. So how can an institution claim to be secular if they are permitted to pick and chose which religions set up tables to distribute doctrine in the cafeteria?
He said they were distributing them to kids who wanted them.
That would seem to be the key.KIDS WHO WANTED THEM
Which is fine as long as there is a stack of old testaments, the torah, koran, puranas etcetera for kids that want them.
"The Gideons" are over 100 years old and handing out bibles in dozens of languages and near 200 countries. They do so peacefully and without incident. They also sell greeting cards which I never quite understood.
Most other religious groups do not have a Gideon's equivalent. The Mormon's offer the Book of Mormon for free, but ironically they give you a new testament with it many times. Scientologists will gladly sell you a copy of Dianetics. I've even had a Hare Krishna sell me a book in the Best Buy parking lot.
The point is, the school administration knows what they are getting into with the Gideons. From what I've seen the Gideons are not pushy, will follow all regulations and not approach people. Likely they are just following the old Schoolteacher rule, "If you're bringing that into class you need to bring enough for everybody."
Thank gawd these chillin's can't vote. There might have been bumper stickers on the inside of those babels.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080929_13_A7_WESTBE905894
Pastors endorse candidates in challenge to IRS rules
"Hice said, "To say the church can't deal with moral and societal issues if it enters into the political arena is just wrong, it's unconstitutional."
This country has already suffered enough at the hands of the "god's on our side" crew.
Abide by the rules you theists! You won't go to hell (we don't want you) but you will lose your 5013c status!
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Thank gawd these chillin's can't vote. There might have been bumper stickers on the inside of those babels.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080929_13_A7_WESTBE905894
Pastors endorse candidates in challenge to IRS rules
"Hice said, "To say the church can't deal with moral and societal issues if it enters into the political arena is just wrong, it's unconstitutional."
This country has already suffered enough at the hands of the "god's on our side" crew.
Abide by the rules you theists! You won't go to hell (we don't want you) but you will lose your 5013c status!
... and MSNBC just reported that 35 pastors nationwide are known to have done this. To the devil, this is simple:
They lose their tax-exempt status, period. Satan would feel the same if it were Obama-Biden; The devil has to abide by IRS rules, and so should everyone else.
Pastors defy law, back candidates from pulpit Pastor Luke Emrich prepared his sermon this week knowing his remarks could invite an investigation by the Internal Revenue Service.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26930425/from/ET/
Public schools are an inappropriate forum to be handing out religious materials of any kind, and apparently the federal courts agree:
http://www.kspr.com/news/local/13570492.html
Decisions about religion should be up to the parents, not school board members.
If I were a parent with children in this school I would be contacting the ACLU immediately.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
"Better mad with the world than wise alone"
Baltazar Gracian
My stepson brought one home and told me they were passing them out at School. My first reaction was that they should be passing out magnifying glasses also with that eye straining small print. I have no real problem with this because I know that it is a book of positive Christian learning. But I do have a problem when everybody of other non positive faiths start screaming that they want equal exposure to my child. I feel they do not need to know about so many virgins they will be given upon killing the infidels of this Earth and other faiths. But thats just me.
Why are people here so adverse to open discussion about religion?
They cling to it like it's sacred.....but they don't show the same concern for those who are different.
Maher vs. God: `Religulous' flays organized faith
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080930/ap_en_ot/film_religulous_2
"I was so gratified to finally go to a screening with people last night and hear how big the laughs are," Maher said. "Because we set out to make a comedy. I always said, my primary motivation was I'm a comedian, and this is comedy gold.
"Never one to soft-pedal his own opinions, Maher openly scorns remarks made by Christians, Jews and Muslims he interviews. He hopes audiences will laugh with him, and that "Religulous" will stand as a testament for people who share his scorn. "
"It is a sobering thought to think that the U.S. Congress has 535 members and there's not one who represents this point of view, and yet there are tens of millions of Americans who feel this way," Maher said.
Those religulous types need to go out and see this movie. More likely to show up in mass protest.....
Maher, a good counter balance to those fiction books handed out.
Making fun of people of faith doesn't seem funny to me.
I like Bill Maher, but he needs to stick with politics.
You must be an OKIE......in big metropolitan cities across this great nation and the world, intellects discuss religion. Churchianity hides an open dialogue just like it intrudes on the right of individual choice of which this nation was founded. A true patriot respects freedom of religion. And that includes freedom to be a non-theist
quote:
Originally posted by DolfanBob
But I do have a problem when everybody of other non positive faiths start screaming that they want equal exposure to my child. I feel they do not need to know about so many virgins they will be given upon killing the infidels of this Earth and other faiths. But thats just me.
Someone's listening to a little too much right wing radio.
That's not meant to sound offensive just like I'm sure your slanted opinion of other faiths wasn't meant to sound offensive.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
You must be an OKIE......in big metropolitan cities across this great nation and the world, intellects discuss religion. Churchianity hides an open dialogue just like it intrudes on the right of individual choice of which this nation was founded. A true patriot respects freedom of religion. And that includes freedom to be a non-theist
Don't put words in my mouth. I am not against discussing religion...in fact, I have made a point to study and discuss other religions most of my life. I am a member of a very open faith church and know that many of my friends and family are agnostic/atheist/pagan, etc. I have an equal amount of friends and family whose Christian religion is the most important thing in their life. I have many great discussions with them on a regular basis.
Don't lecture me with that condescending tone that
"in big metropolitan cities across this great nation and the world, intellects discuss religion."If you think that being in a metro area makes that much of a difference in religious discussion, you are an idiot. If you think discussing religion makes you an intellectual, then you are a mistaken idiot.
Believe me, big city folk and small town folk can be members of any church and any faith. Same for smart folks and stupid folks...
I think it is in poor taste to make fun of other religions. You think that is funny. I disagree.
Sorry RM, but the majority of people in this part of the world think talking religion and politics is off limits, a taboo....improper unless they are in a house of worship. That's how they hide and get away with shenanigans like dispersing bibles. Out of sight, out of mind.
So do you have a problem with making fun of superstitions? What about the hypocrisy of most religious institutions? That's off limits?
What about using public places as forums? What about using the pulpit to preach who to vote against? What about tax free status while abusing the very same tax code?
Old time religion is fodder for humor. So are the new forms taking place. Too bad if you disagree. The jokes on us for allowing religious institutions shove us the likes of Bushco et al.
Do you have gawd on your side? Satan don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IcUumWzue4
is this acceptable?
Not "off limits", just insignificant. Religious discussion are fine, there are however dueling philosophies about how one approaches religious discussion and highly religious folks. I've been a glutton for both approaches from time to time, but right now, I simply don't care.
Back on point, call up the ACLU. Public institutions often "get away" with things that are already illegal. Whether or not this is illegal, not sure, but you can find out.
I am not for nor against the idea of passing out Bibles in public schools. If there was any pressure to accept one or read one, I would probably feel differently but it sounds like they were very careful to just offer them.
I "offer" recycling and environmental propaganda to school children all the time. Some of those children probably don't agree with my brochures (in fact, one of Senator Inhofe's family is in my daughter's class).
I am not a big believer in everything in the Bible, but I am not afraid of people reading it.
So, you'd have no problem if the books were Satanic ritual manuals?
The devil bets it would cause quite the demon stration.....
Too bad the prankster movement will never come to oklahoma....