Is anybody else watching the City Council meeting tonight?
This project has sure pissed off the neighbors.
Care to describe?
I believe the main reason the neighbors and area business owners were concerned is based on several things.
1. Their representative just happens to be on vacation this week.
2. The vote to obtain funding for the project passed the Council vote last week.
3. Many of the residents, home owners, property owners and business owners had no idea of the planned construction of the proposed facility.
One of the questions raised is who owns the property and what is the money trail.
Another question is regarding why now, what of the exiting facilities that are being funded to handle these folks today.
Third question regards the downtown YMCA, who the blame seems to point to regarding the need of this new facility. YMCA has announced they will be closing that facility in the next two years.
Should the new facility for the Homeless be located in South Tulsa? There seems to not be very many social service facilities located there, plus there are way more successful and growing businesses in south Tulsa that could afford to hire these folks.
Why not just use the Six+ Million dollar Hissom Memorial Center which is already built paid for and avaialable?
Hissom History Note:
In 1959, the 52nd legislature recognized the need for additional beds to serve a rapidly growing population of citizens with mental retardation and appropriated $1 million for the construction of a third institution on land donated by Mr. and Mrs. Wiley Hissom, near Sand Springs. Later, in 1961, an additional $5 million was appropriated to complete construction and fully equip the facility to be named The Hissom Memorial Center.
Hissom is fully equipped with it's own Morgue, Swimming Pool, Heliport and Cathedral.
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2008/08/i244-yale-vagrant-facility-on-co.html
What Bates has to say....
http://www.buildingtulsabuildinglives.com/
The Building Tulsa, Building Lives Web Site
Isn't the HOW Foudation located on south Mingo? That would be a good location for this project, near an industrial tract that has jobs and positions ranging from general labor jobs to more advanced levels available.
"Building Tulsa, Building Lives" is a collaborative effort that includes Mayor Kathy Taylor's Task Force to End Chronic Homelessness, the Zarrow Families, the Mental Health Association in Tulsa, and Tulsa Housing Authority.
Other coalition partners include:
Ruth K. Nelson Revocable Trust
George Kaiser Family Foundation
Abba's Family
Associated Centers for Therapy
City of Tulsa Working in Neighborhoods (WIN)
Community Action Project
Community Service Council/Homeless Services Network/211
Family & Children's Services
Goodwill Industries
Housing Partners of Tulsa
Iron Gate Ministries
John 3:16
Legal Aid Services of Oklahoma
Morton Health Care
Oklahoma Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services
Salvation Army
Tulsa Day Center for the Homeless
Volunteers of America of Oklahoma
Workforce Oklahoma
YMCA of Greater Tulsa
Youth Services of Tulsa
Who was it that Bynum muttered about at the end over an open mic. Something about appologizing
Well, if there was ever any doubt about being Batty....what a bunch of garbage MB! You failed to mention the family who holds title to the old Warehouse Market.
Eagleton proved tonight to be the best head the council has ever had. His speach at the end was spot on. It's about much more than "white city" ....it's about giving a hand up.
And you call yourself a good christian. It's guys like MB that make me a friend of the devil.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_19970711/ai_n10111485
Legislation OKs leasing of vacant Hissom Memorial Center at $10.00 per year.
This location appears to still stand vacant, and the current rent seems very reasonable at $10.00 per year.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Well, if there was ever any doubt about being Batty....what a bunch of garbage MB! You failed to mention the family who holds title to the old Warehouse Market.
Eagleton proved tonight to be the best head the council has ever had. His speach at the end was spot on. It's about much more than "white city" ....it's about giving a hand up.
And you call yourself a good christian. It's guys like MB that make me a friend of the devil.
Why not get more bang for the buck and spend the money on what is already in downtown. Oh thats right it's different when it's a problem for downtown. besides an Educare what else has been provided out this far from downtown or mid-town.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Well, if there was ever any doubt about being Batty....what a bunch of garbage MB! You failed to mention the family who holds title to the old Warehouse Market.
Eagleton proved tonight to be the best head the council has ever had. His speach at the end was spot on. It's about much more than "white city" ....it's about giving a hand up.
And you call yourself a good christian. It's guys like MB that make me a friend of the devil.
Even more reason the facility should be built in South Tulsa, perhaps near the Oral Roberts University and Ministry.
Why not just remodel the downtown YMCA building? What is planned for that place, another parking lot?
I guess KKT didn't have a need to fly in that redneck **** off his vacation to vote on this.
I hope this sinks Patrick's re-election. By the time he is up for reelection, this thing should be under construction.
Now we just need to find a good issue to sink Gomerz and Martinson.
Uninteller, what is wrong with the project? Seems to me I-244 acts as a buffer as does the cemetary. $4 million dollars of funding....and it would be built there even if the "yes" votes had prevailed.
Where do you wish to shove the helpless?
Why not right in the middle of downtown in between all the "churches"?
Seems the old Whittier/Kendall School site at I-244 and Lewis where the buildings were torn down seems to be a much less expensive site to build on. One would think the City already owns that property.
Why purchase property from a private party when the City alredy owns property that is larger and also on I-244?
Interesting that the neighbors got over 500 signatures in one day against the proposed facility at the Admiral and Yale location. Doesn't sound as if the battles are over, there were some very emotional folks who have their life time investments in that area. Imagine if that facility were to be built, un-announced, at a major intersection near your home or business.
A few of the businesses along Admiral are well suited for an influx of folks with social problems.
1. The Piggly Wiggly grocery store east of Harvard on Admiral already has two armed guards on duty there.
2. The Blood Plasma collection center, just east of Yale on Admiral, provides armed guards for those needing cash for err ah recreational goods, for those willing to provide sell their blood to the comsmetic industry, most human plasma is used to make hair care products.
3. And just a mile east at Admiral and Sheridan are several low cost motels that seem to be surrounded by prostitution and folks that are selling something to those driving up to the intersections away form the lights.
Just check out the area around the Denny's restaurant between midnight and 4am some weekend. Or down by the O'Reillys Auto Parts store.
There are several long standing Arenas and attractions in Tulsa
Was very embarassing as a Tulsan to watch the touists that traveled to Tulsa to see the IHRA Skull Shine National Drag Races this spring that stopped in at the Denny's to have dinner after a night's races with their young kids, wives and families. News folks should of been there interviewing those people in regards to their reaction to the street walkers and bums hanging around in the parking lot and around that area.
Race Fans attending the Chili Bowl often eat at Tally's restaurant at 11th and Yale, just 1 mile from this new proposed Homeless Center.
Should not take too much time for the new residents to discover the nicely mowed and manicured University of Tulsa grounds nearby for shade and an afternoon siesta.
And what of the limited parking problems that have forever plagued Skelly Stadium or what ever it is called today?
The I-244 highway does not work as a buffer as it cuts across in a diagonal direction in that area. Besides there is a pedestrian bridge near Deleware and a sidewalk across all the bridges with buttons on the crosswalks for the traffic signals.
Have to agree with the above poster that most of the homeless folks like to hang out downtown. They have the super cool in the summer, and warm in the winter Central Library with free internet access, tons of books, DVDs and comfortable seating. And there is no parking fee if you walk in, ride a bicycle, or arrive via city bus which is good, saves on the carbon footprint. Got the Catholic Chairities and several Soup Kitchens at the area churches for breakfast, lunch and dinner there. Day Center has a warm coat, new/used clothes, shoes and more. Seeking a day job there are several day labor halls including the AFLCIO Union Labor halls located downtown. The DTA as most call it, Down Town Area.
Who was the man that had the soup kitchen that was always featured on John Earling's morning show on KRMG? Believe he sat on a billboard at one time.
Tulsa Hobo History
While attending one of the Beryl Ford collection seminars at the Tulsa Library I learned these little tidbits of Tulsa History from the facilitator.
Going back to the early days in Tulsa when the pedestrian bridge went across the Arkansas River where the 11th street bridge is now. Train stopped there on the east bank, and there was a turnstile that sent the train back east as the heavy train bridge had yet to be built. The pedestrian bridge was a toll bridge back then. Others would ride horses or wade across the river to move freight on wagons.
If you walk past the Civic Center across Southwest Blvd, you will cross over to the north bank of the Arkansas River, which runs along side of Charles Page Boulevard to the west. Along the levy and the Freight Train tracks that were once the Sand Springs Line.
Shanty hobo camps have existed along that river bank for 100+ years.
Hobos would make that walk towards the downtown area, walking in the alleys behind the homes downtown that were occupied by the wealthy Tulsa Oil famlies and ask the domestics or wives for food at their kitchen windows and back doors. Most were accomodating to the travelers and provided a small meal for them of food they were most likely to through out anyway. Some would make Mulligan Stew from the left overs they were given. The Hobos would then take a piece of chalk and MARK the pavement or curb at the homes that were chairitable. The term Mark designates one who is giving to the Hobos.
From there the trail led around the old Warehouse Market where the Home Depot is today. Liquor Stores are another tradition of the gypsy travelers who mainly rely on rail for transportation from one village to another.
So if one follows the trail, which has existed since the beginning of Tulsey Town, you can quickly identify why and where the homeless travelers slept, bathed, ate and obtained liquor and food. By displacing them off of that natural trail, I believe that is only a temporary deterrent, providing a place for the night's sleep. Most know the way back to the downtown area as that is where most stepped off the freight train when they arrived here. It is also where their entertainment, food, social interactions, saloons, liquor stores and chemical additives are found.
The Tilsdale Expressway when first built became a momentary barrier for the folks that lived on the east side that interacted with those in the public housing Osage Apartments on the west side. One may notice when traveling north out of downtown that a pedestrian bridge was constructed to handle the folks that before just simply walked across the highway. A quick hole in the fence made short order of that barrier allowing residents to simply walk across the limited access highway. Believe a few people got hit and killed there. That was before the walk over bridge had to be built.
Attempting to build a barrier, fence or other obstruction that blocks an old time established 100+ year trail is very hard to do.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Uninteller, what is wrong with the project? Seems to me I-244 acts as a buffer as does the cemetary. $4 million dollars of funding....and it would be built there even if the "yes" votes had prevailed.
Where do you wish to shove the helpless?
Why not right in the middle of downtown in between all the "churches"?
There is daycare withing a few blocks, a park just under half a mile, railroad tracks another half mile, cemetary to go lay around in, sonic to beg at along with a QT , people pulling off the highway for the fair and go hey there's a hotel for us, Salvation army toy haven is just a few blocks away come Christmas time for them, they'll have to fight over the trash at the grocery store a half mile west , it's already taken.
Forget bike lanes , there will be a need for ped. lanes from downtown to Yale with this lol
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Uninteller, what is wrong with the project? Seems to me I-244 acts as a buffer as does the cemetary. $4 million dollars of funding....and it would be built there even if the "yes" votes had prevailed.
Where do you wish to shove the helpless?
Why not right in the middle of downtown in between all the "churches"?
i know they will build anyways. I'm more thrilled that patrick wasn't there and just disenfranchised his constituency.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Uninteller, what is wrong with the project? Seems to me I-244 acts as a buffer as does the cemetary. $4 million dollars of funding....and it would be built there even if the "yes" votes had prevailed.
Where do you wish to shove the helpless?
Why not right in the middle of downtown in between all the "churches"?
i know they will build anyways. I'm more thrilled that patrick wasn't there and just disenfranchised his constituency.
Those that showed up tonight, probably didn't vote for him anyway.
Hats off to Proctor taking it on, makes me want to vote for Rice
For some reason I thought it would be near this... http://www.catholiccharitiestulsa.org/news/newsitem.aspx?newsid=733&newsitemid=3035
I dont know if its better to have more services of this nature together in one area or not. I am very curious as to what kind of services and treatment programs they will have at this new building.
Why not just ask those that are going to use this facility where they would like it to be located?
1. Provide a list of locations that are suitable, available and zoned properly.
2. Then have the residents of the YMCA make a choice.
That would seem to be much more logical than just sticking a pin in a map.
A nice Holiday Inn Hotel at I-244 and Yale makes way more sense than the Homeless Shelter. Would be ideal for service for the Fairgrounds.
A. So the Day Center for the Homeless, and the John 316 Misson remain downtown?
http://www.tulsadaycenter.org/
B. Catholic Charities moves to Harvard and Apache.
http://www.catholiccharitiestulsa.org/news/newsitem.aspx?newsid=733&newsitemid=3035
C. Morton Health Center relocated to Lansing and Pine.
http://www.vision2025.info/category.php?category=mortonhealthcare
D. New Homeless Shelter proposed at I-244 and Yale.
Again, with all the pre-planning for Vision 2025, and the Master Plans, it sounds like some loose ends were not thought through. Why not locate the Homeless Shelter and Catholic Charities next to the Morton Health Center? See Lansing Business Park Rule #5 Below
With the current idea of making everything close together to save energy and reduce carbon footprints, one would think that one stop shopping would make way much more sense than moving these social services miles apart from each other. What happened to the idea of the Village format in planning? I was led to believe it was to keep everyone living, shopping, and enjoying entertainment in the Urban area versus the sprawl factor.
I believe the Food Bank, and a Rehabilitation center is also in the Lansing Business Park along with EMSA.
Sounds like a homeless person is going to need an "all you can eat" Bus Pass or a set of wheels to make the long distance trips for the social services that were within walking distance when conveniently located in the Urban downtown Tulsa area. The current natural locations of these services, choosen back when, seem much more organized, use less energy for travel and were way more convenient than the new planned proposal.
New trails that are the shortest distance between the two points of these new social services will be established and will most likely cut through neighborhoods, around or through man made and natural barriers and provide shelter stops along the routes. Cutting a hole in a fence of an abandoned industrial lot is not uncommon today. One may want to use Google Earth to find the shortest quickest walking routes between these facilities.
LANSING BUSINESS PARK
"The park, which covers nearly 100 acres on the northeast edge of downtown, is designed to provide medium to small sites for office, warehouse, distribution, research and development, light assembly and manufacturing, and service businesses. Lansing is the only close-in development ofits type and offers all the services and amenities of a modern business park. It will appeal to those desiring immediate proximity to downtown, Oklahoma State University at Tulsa and the expressway system.
Several developments have also been completed in the newer sections of the park including the headquarters of the Emergency Medical Services Authority (EMSA), the office production facility of Banknote Printing, Service and Equipment International, and the Lansing Business Center, a project of the Tulsa Development Authority with the purpose of providing incubator space for small, start up businesses.
Lansing Park offers immediate access to the arterial street system-via Pine Street and Peoria Avenue. We invite you to compare traffic volume on the arterial to those serving similar parks in southeast Tulsa. Lansing Park is adjacent to Highway 75 (Cherokee Expressway) and offers excellent access to the expressway system-via the Pine and Peoria expressway interchange. Visual exposure from the Cherokee Expressway exists at several sites."
Lansing Park is located less than one mile north of the inner dispersal loop and I-244 with easy access to Highway 64 (Cimmaron Turnpike), Highway 51 (Broken Arrow Expressway), Highway 169 and I-44. Lansing Park adjoins the Oklahoma State University at Tulsa campus and is approximately four minutes from the downtown Central Post Office and some of the finest hotel accommodations in the City. Additionally, the Park is ten minutes from the Tulsa International Airport and only thirty minutes from the Port of Catoosa.
No other industrial park in the city can make these claims. All utilities are available to each site in Lansing. All subdivisions have site use restrictions; those for Lansing are relatively modest and are primarily designed to promote quality development, enhance the appearance of the park, assure compatibility of use, and protect investment.
LANSING BUSINESS PARK SITE RESTRICTIONS:
1.Exterior walls must be masonry or metal; street side must be decorative (masonry veneer encouraged). No outdoor storage visible from the street is permitted.
2.Buildings and grounds must be kept in good repair. Unnecessary tree removal is prohibited.
3.All building plans, signage and landscaping must be approved by TDA. Appropriate landscaping is mandatory.
4.Paved off-street parking for employees and customers must be provided and maintained.
5. No residential, nuisance, or offensive uses of property is permitted. Also, no use which interferes with other businesses in Lansing.
6. Ground floor area of building may not exceed 50% of the lot size.
Sounds like many areas of Tulsa need to adopt these rules and quick before someone decides to drop a Residential Nuisance in their neighborhood.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Is anybody else watching the City Council meeting tonight?
This project has sure pissed off the neighbors.
Gomez just signed his own death warrant on his political career and the poor bastard probably doesn't even realize it. Numb nutts will probably turn around and sign a second one when he approves Bumgarners OH zoning in a matter of weeks.
What the hell is up with his Ballpark trust meeting anyway? If he wants to clear up the situation he should push to make public, with full disclosure, all the communications and travel accommodations between the Council, da Mares office, and sponsors involved in this deal.
Councilor Gomez on Development = Empty Campaign Rhetoric:
quote:
Development that works with the neighborhoods to enhance livability should be welcomed and encouraged throughout District 4. Common sense is the key. Revitalization of neighborhoods must be done for Tulsa to continue to prosper. Many different people and organizations must stay actively involved in the process to keep it balanced. Neither the politically connected special interest nor the screams of the tyrannical minority should be able to trample on their neighbors personal property rights.
Gomez has joined the tyrannical minority of the politically connected special interests that is Empress Kathy and Emperor Kaiser's royal court. He serves as her newly knighted loyal, trusted, man-servant since Sir Martinson has fallen out of her favor. He's even joined da Mare's mile high club, joining the elite few who've flown on her majesty's private jet, Mare Force One.
Just don't expect this knight in slimy armor to come to the rescue of 120 lofts. He serves the Queen first, his city and his district last.
The funny thing is, I can't hardly seem to find anyone who'll admit to voting for him. It's Miller time for Gomez? Any suggestions on challengers? The primaries are less than a year away. I think Bates should challenge Gomez. Bates for D4/09.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Well, if there was ever any doubt about being Batty....what a bunch of garbage MB! You failed to mention the family who holds title to the old Warehouse Market.
Eagleton proved tonight to be the best head the council has ever had. His speach at the end was spot on. It's about much more than "white city" ....it's about giving a hand up.
And you call yourself a good christian. It's guys like MB that make me a friend of the devil.
Even more reason the facility should be built in South Tulsa, perhaps near the Oral Roberts University and Ministry.
Why not just remodel the downtown YMCA building? What is planned for that place, another parking lot?
How about on the site of an abandoned Wal-Mart?
Suprised one of the Photo Shop gurus has not come up with the signs for the I-244 Exit.
Tulsa Fairgrounds & Tulsa Homeless Shelter Next Exit - BOK Arena 3 miles ahead
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
Admiral and Yale...
Good spot. Lots of jobs close and within walking distance.
Do people even think about these things before they decide? I agree with the above, follow the money and see which campaign contributor owned that property.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
So why not leave it there in downtown? Whats the problem? Redoing the sprinklers is cheaper than what they are about to spend.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
The YMCA 'Safe Haven' was for dually-diagnosed mentally ill homeless. It was a 'damp' zone which meant there was not a strict teetotaling policy, nor were the residents in treatment. Moving these kinds of services around town will help downtown a bunch.
And who gives a poop what Bates thinks, Amp? If he wants to join RM's thread, let him.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
I guess KKT didn't have a need to fly in that redneck **** off his vacation to vote on this.
I hope this sinks Patrick's re-election. By the time he is up for reelection, this thing should be under construction.
Now we just need to find a good issue to sink Gomerz and Martinson.
Patrick doesn't care about the people and their business. Have you ever seen his dumpy "Magic Gas" service station and trashy house in Dawson? Build it there.
Not against the spirit of the project, just the location. What is wrong with locating it downtown where the Day Center for the Homeless, Catholic Charities, Salvation Army, John 316 Mission and other Chairities are already located? If not there then why not plan an area where all those types of services are within walking distance, instead of sitting on a land locked small lot such as the Admiral and Yale location?
Downtown was a good location for many years for those services when they were built not too many years ago. Majority of businesses and services typically locate close to their customer base and close to other businesses and services that compliment theirs.
Why locate this new facility 4 miles from all the other services in a residental area of Tulsa?
Thought the idea of the Urban living concept was to consolidate the Urban space downtown, provide housing areas, jobs, community services, build food and entertainment facilities and create a village atmosphere to save energy by avoiding driving so much. This proposal sounds more like Sprawl than consolidation.
If the Homeless folks are seeking a job, I read where SMG management at the BOK Center were hiring 100 plus folks at $6 to $8 per hour for the events.
Bottm line, would you like this facility or another one in your residential neighborhood?
Keep it in the industrial/business zone surrounding downtown where they have been comfortable for 100+ years and lots of other services similar to this are located.
Alternative locations are:
Lewis and I-244 which the City owns that property already, less cost, larger lot, less residental impact.
Hissom Memorial Center which was designed as a mental health facility to begin with.
Intersection at Yale and Admiral lends itself towards a nice four story motel for visitors to the Fairgrounds.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Not against the spirit of the project, just the location. What is wrong with locating it downtown where the Day Center for the Homeless, Catholic Charities, Salvation Army, John 316 Mission and other Chairities are already located?
Why locate this new facility 4 miles from all the other services? Thought the idea was to consolidate the Urban space downtown, provide housing areas, jobs, build entertainment facilities and create a village atmosphere to save energy by avoiding driving so much. This proposal sounds more like Sprawl than consolidation.
If the Homeless folks are seeking a job, I read where SMG management at the BOK Center were hiring 200 plus folks at $6 to $8 per hour for the events.
Bottm line, would you like this facility or another one in your residential neighborhood?
Keep it in the industrial/business zone surrounding downtown where they have been comfortable for 100+ years.
You partially answered your question when you mentioned SMG and BOK center. Build a sparkling new arena downtown and export the homeless. The mis-guided idea is people don't want to go downtown because of the "homeless" problem. I'm downtown quite a bit after-hours and it's not near as bad as people who never spend any time downtown make it sound.
FAIK, those 200 jobs are not daily employment, event-only.
I suggested a year ago we build this project in OKC, would have kept everyone happy
except those in OKC. [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Why locate this new facility 4 miles from all the other services in a residental area of Tulsa?
Admiral and Yale is not inside a residential area, its a business corridor.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Bottm line, would you like this facility or another one in your residential neighborhood?
My residential neighborhood is downtown. I am not harrassed or threatened by "homeless people", the only people that ever stop me for money are usually the grifters and pan-handlers at Quick Trip but they are non-threatening.
Where exactly is this location? The newspaper referred to 10th and Yale while everyone else refers to Admiral and Yale. The corner of Admiral and Yale has a muffler shop, a cemetary, a Sonic and auto parts stores. The neighborhood is shielded by 244 on the South, 40 acres of cemetary on the north and a half mile of low end retail on the east and west.
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial. Concentrating every public facility downtown doesn't make much sense to me unless you just want to make sure downtown dies a slow, more visible death. Would rather see some sort of revenue stimulating, taxpaying entities replace those functions.
BTW, I liked Eagleton's response.
10 S Yale, which I think is where the warehouse market was.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
The newspaper referred to 10th and Yale while everyone else refers to Admiral and Yale.
Error by the reporter. He has noted the error in the comments section on the website. It should be 10 S. Yale
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
The newspaper referred to 10th and Yale while everyone else refers to Admiral and Yale.
Error by the reporter. He has noted the error in the comments section on the website. It should be 10 S. Yale
Thanks. AMP, there are suitable locations all over town. This is one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial.
How come we never see these planned for that part of town? How come we don't have a four story homeless shelter at 31st and Lewis, 51st and Harvard or on Brookside?
I agree that this will be a great facility and I am glad that the donors have stepped up. This is one of the reasons why I love this town.
But this is going to affect this neighborhood a lot and they were never told about it. I love that part of town. It was where I grew up. That was the store we bought all our groceries. My wife was the president of the neighborhood association there for over ten years.
It was approved before anyone knew anything about it. There has to be a better way.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Where exactly is this location? The newspaper referred to 10th and Yale while everyone else refers to Admiral and Yale. The corner of Admiral and Yale has a muffler shop, a cemetary, a Sonic and auto parts stores. The neighborhood is shielded by 244 on the South, 40 acres of cemetary on the north and a half mile of low end retail on the east and west.
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial.
there is no bus stop at 101st/Mem so your cute swipe FAILS IT.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
there is no bus stop at 101st/Mem so your cute swipe FAILS IT.
There is at 91st. ;)
Of course, anybody trying to walk that mile stands a good chance of death. Depending on the time of day, it might be from cars blasting down the road at 60mph or from being shot by frustrated drivers moving more slowly than a person can walk.
And as someone who lives in the area, I wouldn't have a problem with services for the homeless being nearby. My SO probably would, though. She works close to the YMCA and hates having to leave work after dark. The homeless people scare her.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Where exactly is this location? The newspaper referred to 10th and Yale while everyone else refers to Admiral and Yale. The corner of Admiral and Yale has a muffler shop, a cemetary, a Sonic and auto parts stores. The neighborhood is shielded by 244 on the South, 40 acres of cemetary on the north and a half mile of low end retail on the east and west.
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial.
there is no bus stop at 101st/Mem so your cute swipe FAILS IT.
Easily remedied. I wasn't trying to be cute but...even Southies know what a bus looks like, they're just not sure what they're used for unless its a booze cruz wedding party.[;)]
Whatsamatter Interller, you don't think South Tulsa cake eaters could handle any homeless, semi-mental housing? "Your tax dollars at work" as long as they're north of 71st? I do. I think South Tulsa would be a great place to mainstream some of these folks and I think many of the people out there have family or friends who would benefit and wouldn't object.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial.
How come we never see these planned for that part of town? How come we don't have a four story homeless shelter at 31st and Lewis, 51st and Harvard or on Brookside?
I agree that this will be a great facility and I am glad that the donors have stepped up. This is one of the reasons why I love this town.
But this is going to affect this neighborhood a lot and they were never told about it. I love that part of town. It was where I grew up. That was the store we bought all our groceries. My wife was the president of the neighborhood association there for over ten years.
It was approved before anyone knew anything about it. There has to be a better way.
I don't think they needed approval Mike... As I understand the matter the "use" is by Right..
If it had not been, by Right, they would have needed to go before the Board of Adjustments.
To the fellow that referred to this item as though it were "to be the only such facility built across Tulsa" hold on to your hat..!
I have seen the list..
This is all part of a "planned approach" to the issue we now handle by segregation... and the warehousing of the less fortunate and mentally ill.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial.
How come we never see these planned for that part of town? How come we don't have a four story homeless shelter at 31st and Lewis, 51st and Harvard or on Brookside?
I agree that this will be a great facility and I am glad that the donors have stepped up. This is one of the reasons why I love this town.
But this is going to affect this neighborhood a lot and they were never told about it. I love that part of town. It was where I grew up. That was the store we bought all our groceries. My wife was the president of the neighborhood association there for over ten years.
It was approved before anyone knew anything about it. There has to be a better way.
Actually, there are two near my neighborhood that I would bet most people don't even know about. I live in what many dub the "money belt", so you can't say that those types of developments only occur in certain parts of town.
The big difference, though, is that the developments near me house less than 20 people. It's very easy for people to not notice such small groups. It doesn't affect my property value because most people simply don't know they exist.
This unit is huge. Everyone will know it is there. Whether they are perfect neighbors or not, their presence will effect property values. Would you buy a single family home near the equivalent of the downtown YMCA? Your home is your biggest investment, and you want to assure the value will always increase.
If they had simply broken this project up into three units of 25, I bet no one would have even noticed. Why would they build such a large, conspicuous unit?
I am all for helping the homeless, and I am extremely grateful for the incredible generosity of the people behind this. I just think it could have been done a bit differently.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I would guess any location that is near a bus line, a grocery store, and a park would be suitable. That includes 101st and Memorial.
How come we never see these planned for that part of town? How come we don't have a four story homeless shelter at 31st and Lewis, 51st and Harvard or on Brookside?
I agree that this will be a great facility and I am glad that the donors have stepped up. This is one of the reasons why I love this town.
But this is going to affect this neighborhood a lot and they were never told about it. I love that part of town. It was where I grew up. That was the store we bought all our groceries. My wife was the president of the neighborhood association there for over ten years.
It was approved before anyone knew anything about it. There has to be a better way.
Actually, there are two near my neighborhood that I would bet most people don't even know about. I live in what many dub the "money belt", so you can't say that those types of developments only occur in certain parts of town.
The big difference, though, is that the developments near me house less than 20 people. It's very easy for people to not notice such small groups. It doesn't affect my property value because most people simply don't know they exist.
This unit is huge. Everyone will know it is there. Whether they are perfect neighbors or not, their presence will effect property values. Would you buy a single family home near the equivalent of the downtown YMCA? Your home is your biggest investment, and you want to assure the value will always increase.
If they had simply broken this project up into three units of 25, I bet no one would have even noticed. Why would they build such a large, conspicuous unit?
I am all for helping the homeless, and I am extremely grateful for the incredible generosity of the people behind this. I just think it could have been done a bit differently.
It's the Kaiser's retaliation for North Tulsa voting against the river tax.
PM, I'll swap one of these YMCA developments anyday for the Boulder Plaza. Even with that informal mental health development, next to the mental health association, it doesn't seem to affect values in Riverview or Maple Ridge.
I visited the new site today. There is very little residential west of the site and none to its east. The north is insulated by the cemetary. The south side though cut off by the expressway is the only area at risk. Would they rather a cheap hotel went in to complement the machine shops, auto parts, muffler shop, blood bank, auto salvage, mobile home park and Sonic?
As a downtowner I have ZERO SYMPATHY toward the neighborhood. It's a needed service in a city. Hopefully it helps the homeless make changes in their lives and break free of homelessness.
quote:
Originally posted by TheTed
As a downtowner I have ZERO SYMPATHY toward the neighborhood. It's a needed service in a city. Hopefully it helps the homeless make changes in their lives and break free of homelessness.
Problem for you is that there is more than 75 downtown now and in another year there will be more....whatcha going to do.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
PM, I'll swap one of these YMCA developments anyday for the Boulder Plaza. Even with that informal mental health development, next to the mental health association, it doesn't seem to affect values in Riverview or Maple Ridge.
I visited the new site today. There is very little residential west of the site and none to its east. The north is insulated by the cemetary. The south side though cut off by the expressway is the only area at risk. Would they rather a cheap hotel went in to complement the machine shops, auto parts, muffler shop, blood bank, auto salvage, mobile home park and Sonic?
and of course they won't dare cross the highway or walk a few blocks north. Oh and I guess you missed the few houses to the east of the gas station which is more homeowners than is that close to the current YMCA.
When I was at the Mental Hell Association DTU was quite active in addressing the homeless problem, in fact was the primary mover in getting MHA to take on housing as a core program. I saw firsthand the difference medications and case management make in getting people back on their feet.
My concern with the project is whether or not this is a 'safe haven' like the Y was. Having 75 under-medicated mentally ill drunks or crackheads in the neighborhood is NOT the same as a hotel, even if it is separated by the MLK.
I got it!
We can build it anywhere in Oklahoma City AND upgrade our transit system to provide these poor souls free (one way) transportation west. They should really be begging outside a pro-sports venue anyway.
You know, because we care. [;)]
OKC, don't get mad. You can build a shelter in Amarillo.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
PM, I'll swap one of these YMCA developments anyday for the Boulder Plaza. Even with that informal mental health development, next to the mental health association, it doesn't seem to affect values in Riverview or Maple Ridge.
I visited the new site today. There is very little residential west of the site and none to its east. The north is insulated by the cemetary. The south side though cut off by the expressway is the only area at risk. Would they rather a cheap hotel went in to complement the machine shops, auto parts, muffler shop, blood bank, auto salvage, mobile home park and Sonic?
and of course they won't dare cross the highway or walk a few blocks north. Oh and I guess you missed the few houses to the east of the gas station which is more homeowners than is that close to the current YMCA.
I know that area well. I lived there after college for a year or so and I've used the many automotive service shops, and other services around there over the last 25 years. Its effects won't even be noticed anywhere but south of 244 and then only marginally. Every part of the city should share this burden. It is simply wrong to warehouse them downtown or in remote locations, creating ghettos for homeless and struggling people. Live your faith. Area churches have a great opportunity here.
And just 2 nights after Councilor Eagleton and other councilors give this group $4 million of our tax money. Eagleton is eating at White River Fish Market with a group of 16 that includes Judy Kishner? Say it ain't so
Is there a reason I'm wondering if Eagleton should have not voted
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I got it!
We can build it anywhere in Oklahoma City AND upgrade our transit system to provide these poor souls free (one way) transportation west. They should really be begging outside a pro-sports venue anyway.
You know, because we care. [;)]
OKC, don't get mad. You can build a shelter in Amarillo.
Interesting you mention that, as several major Tulsa based non-profits donated large sums of money to build a major Skate Park in Joplin, Missouri.
http://www.thebridgejoplin.com/bridge/aboutus/place.html
http://www.autumnramppark.com/autumn/pics/index.html
Was their intent to move the Skaters out of Tulsa and up the pike towards Joplin?
DATE: 6/18/04
HEADLINE: The Bridge is Building a new Destination for Joplin
BODY:
The Bridge has been helping the community for 5 years. With 8000 members and over 100,000 visits, The Bridge is working on a plan to build a brand new Recreation and Entertainment facility for the Joplin area. The new facility will be located just north east of the John Q. Hammons Convention Center off of Hammons Blvd on 59.2 Acres donated by John Q. Hammons. The facility will be over 60,000 sq. ft. with Skatepark, Rock Climbing, gaming, cage-basketball, music-venue, bmx dirt jumps, food service and more. Construction financing is approved and dirt work will begin at the end of June.
The ground breaking for this new facility will take place on Tuesday June 29 at 10 a.m. on the site. The community is encouraged to attend. Major Project partners to date include: John Q. Hammons, St. John's Regional Medical Center, J.E. and L.E. Mabee Foundation, The Betenbough Foundation, The Lemons Trust, the staff and Trustees at The Bridge and the nine local banks that are financing construction. These banks include: U.S. Bank, Hometown Bank, Commerce Bank, Community Bank and Trust, First State Bank, Arvest Bank, Bank of Joplin, Great Southern Bank and Southwest Missouri Bank.
The Bridge needs to raise an additional $875,000 in commitments from the Joplin community in order to receive a challenge grant from the
J.E. and L.E. Mabee Foundation for $750,000. The Mabee Foundation is from Tulsa, the Betenbough Foundation is out of Lubbock, TX, Mr. Hammons is from Springfield. As we announce this project other towns and cities around the Midwest see the need and have invested in this idea. Now it is time for Joplin to get behind what will be a major asset to this community in terms of making a place for the teen population and in terms of creating a destination for the Joplin Market.
Local schools, Boys and Girls Clubs, Young Life, Churches, Girl Scouts, Juvenile Detention Center, Ozark Center, St. John's Regional Medical Center, The Joplin Family Y have all already benefited from utilizing the current Bridge facility. The new facility will only enhance the programs of these and other wonderful organizations.
The Bridge is open after school and on the weekends for teens. We work to connect students with adults that will mentor and challenge students to become active and productive members of society. Most importantly, we are connecting students with the hope and love offered by God to every generation. We see this new facility as a gift to one of the most overlooked segments of the population. In addition, we see the eyes of the nation looking at Joplin as a leader in a modern day movement that is designed to help teens transition into healthy adults.
http://www.thebridgejoplin.com/bridge/aboutus/index.html
Gee and local skaters have to raise their own money to enhance the one being built (someday) from Vision 2025
"Skate the 918"
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Well, if there was ever any doubt about being Batty....what a bunch of garbage MB! You failed to mention the family who holds title to the old Warehouse Market.
Eagleton proved tonight to be the best head the council has ever had. His speach at the end was spot on. It's about much more than "white city" ....it's about giving a hand up.
And you call yourself a good christian. It's guys like MB that make me a friend of the devil.
Objectors need form a committee to identify all future potential sites that slip through NIMBY fingers.....THA most likely already has it.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Well, if there was ever any doubt about being Batty....what a bunch of garbage MB! You failed to mention the family who holds title to the old Warehouse Market.
Eagleton proved tonight to be the best head the council has ever had. His speach at the end was spot on. It's about much more than "white city" ....it's about giving a hand up.
And you call yourself a good christian. It's guys like MB that make me a friend of the devil.
Objectors need form a committee to identify all future potential sites that slip through NIMBY fingers.....THA most likely already has it.
6th and Denver is a good location. It's a block away to 20 bus lines, across the street from Central Library and the Courthouse. A hospital is only a few blocks away. Social services are within walking distance. Why not there?
There's some land just West of Utica at 20th. Close to hospitals, shopping, bus routes potential employers, there's even a Y just a short 6 blocks away. Why not there?
Brookside has a good library they can use as well as bus routes and employers too. Why not there?
I saw some land over by 41st and Hudson. Now there's a good spot Walking distance to 12/12, bus routes, employers, shopping. Why not there?
They're tearing down forests at 106th & Memorial even a golf driving range. Lots of land and support judging by the density of churches out there. No busses but that could be arranged. Why not there?
Why is downtown the default location?
I think those are all good sites for a small facility. Small facilities (like eight to twenty units) fit in lots of places.
Why the move to build a 70 plus unit building?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think those are all good sites for a small facility. Small facilities (like eight to twenty units) fit in lots of places.
Why the move to build a 70 plus unit building?
My guess? Ask a lawyer. Why do you ask for 20 million when you only expect and would gladly settle for 5? If 70 is available and approved doesn't mean it will end up that many. But it may mean that the cost of the land justifies that much and the additional units may only cost marginally more (cost slightly more to build 20 more units if they are on the same foundation and utilities cheaper as well).
A compromise with NIMBY's may end up with half the projected amount. Does that make sense?
I don't see a compromise coming.
THA was very clear of their intentions to build a facility this size and the neighborhood leaders seem very resolute to oppose any facility at this location.
This is a mess. People are really pissed about this.
There is a meeting of the Tulsa Housing Authority scheduled for Tuesday. Here is the agenda...
http://www.tulsahousing.org/Portals/0/General%20Documents/AGENDA%20for%2008.12.08%20THA%20Board%20Meeting.pdf
This item is going to be discussed.
These neighbors are not going to back down. They are well organized (I know most of them because my wife was the president of the neighborhood association for a decade). They just had a big neighborhood controversy last month with the school board about opening a special school for troubled and anger management students. The school board saw the writing on the wall and dropped the plans even after spending $30,000 in improvements.
They are mad at the housing authority. They are mad at the city council, especially Eric Gomez and David Patrick. I would expect fireworks.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I don't see a compromise coming.
THA was very clear of their intentions to build a facility this size and the neighborhood leaders seem very resolute to oppose any facility at this location.
This is a mess. People are really pissed about this.
There is a meeting of the Tulsa Housing Authority scheduled for Tuesday. Here is the agenda...
http://www.tulsahousing.org/Portals/0/General%20Documents/AGENDA%20for%2008.12.08%20THA%20Board%20Meeting.pdf
This item is going to be discussed.
These neighbors are not going to back down. They are well organized (I know most of them because my wife was the president of the neighborhood association for a decade). They just had a big neighborhood controversy last month with the school board about opening a special school for troubled and anger management students. The school board saw the writing on the wall and dropped the plans even after spending $30,000 in improvements.
They are mad at the housing authority. They are mad at the city council, especially Eric Gomez and David Patrick. I would expect fireworks.
Doesn't anybody get it?
First, fabricate a funky, MADE-UP rule about retrofitting high rise buildings with active, fire suppressant systems is passed by the City Council, at the urging of the Tulsa Fire Chief/Fire Suppression Industry.
This mandate, promulated by the Fire Suppression Industry through their paid paladin the current and former Tulsa Fire Dept. fire chiefs to line the pockets of the Fire Protection Industry, earns the undying support of their financial largess for whatever the Tulsa Oligarchy desires, and offers the Chiefs future employment after they retire from their City of Tulsa sinecures.
This made-up-rule "requires" that the 50 year old YMCA to be retrofitted with ACTIVE fire suppression systems, which results in the facility to be closed because it is not economically viable at $270 per month rent per room to the homeless/indigent drug and alcohol abusers to rehab the building.
Good-bye downtown YMCA.
Second, this serves the local power establishment's dual purpose of moving these indigent, panhandling, bums, druggees, and drunks to outside of downtown Tulsa.
After all, we have the beautiful new BOK Arena as the ICONIC emblem of downtown Tulsa.
The local Plutocrat Oligarchy certainly don't want those indigent individuals, who are clustered downtown because of readily available mass transit, downtown churches "Helping Hands" support, city/county/state assistance, John 3:16 Mission, the Salvation Army Day Center for the Homeless, and the de-facto Adult Day Care Center at the Tulsa Central Library to continue to be an eyesore around their iconic BOK Arena.
Uncalled for insult deleted by moderator Mrs. Ruth KAISER Nelson, the THA ChairWoman, is pushing this 76-Unit Nut-Case housing in the environs of the White City neighborhood vicinity of Yale and Admiral Place, FOUR miles from downtown social services.
And, the White City residents are vehemently against it.
They are going to tell
another unneeded insult deleted by the moderator to take her money and GO TO HELL, and mind the brimstone on the way down.
Promptly, please.
Watch for the Fireworks!
[8)]
I don't think that a 4-story building exactly qualifies as a "high rise." (It's not Cabrini Green...). And, while I understand that it would be best to spread out into smaller, less noticeable buildings, I would expect this would greatly increase the cost/difficulty of providing services.
Part of the problem here is that everyone's acting like this is a leper colony or something. I've been a downtown Y member for 15 years, and I've never had a problem with one of the residents. (They do janitorial jobs in the Y, and I've never felt uncomfortable.)
Statistically, most "homeless" folks are just normal people who have suffered some financial or medical problem that knocked them onto the streets. (Many people count 1 or 2 paychecks as their financial cushion. Not much if you don't have health insurance and need surgery...)
If this facility (in whatever location) provides a stable place and offers excellent services (everything from medical/mental health to job training and placement?) I wouldn't expect to see a bunch of homeless people loitering around the streets. I would assume they are going to be too busy getting back on their feet. (And if there's a/c indoors, who's going to be hanging around outdoors anyway?)
I agree that smaller buildings/groups are ideal (I used to live 2 doors down from a women's shelter, and didn't know it for the first year or so...), I think the most important thing is that we don't demonize "homeless people" and that they get the services they need to re-enter normal life.
Which is, of course, easy for me to say b/c it's not in my backyard.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
And just 2 nights after Councilor Eagleton and other councilors give this group $4 million of our tax money. Eagleton is eating at White River Fish Market with a group of 16 that includes Judy Kishner? Say it ain't so
Is there a reason I'm wondering if Eagleton should have not voted
quote:
Richards and her cousin Judy Kishner, a daughter of philanthropist Henry Zarrow, started an effort last year to find a way to house Tulsa's chronically homeless permanently.
"We now know that providing shelter is not enough," Richards said. "We are committed to finding affordable housing in Tulsa, starting with the homeless."
The Zarrow Families Foundation has gathered support to form a coalition including Mayor Kathy Taylor and more than 15 groups, among them the Tulsa Housing Authority, Morton Health Clinic and Goodwill Industries.
"We could be the first city to end chronic homelessness," Richards said. "We would be No. 1 on a list somewhere."
The effort started when the downtown YMCA announced that it would close its housing program by 2010. About 140 residents live in the low-income units.
Another impetus is the downtown redevelopment effort centered on the September opening of the BOK Center.
"We have a perfect opportunity in Tulsa," Kishner said. "We really need to address the downtown homeless, and the way to do that is to find people a permanent housing situation."
The plan is similar to a program of the Mental Health Association in Tulsa's. It has 200 scattered units throughout the city and brings services to the residents. About 80 percent never return to homelessness.
Most housing programs now have requirements such as staying sober or not having a criminal record.
The Building Tulsa, Building Lives project would provide housing first, then follow up with services.
Kishner said locations are being sought, and the units would not be in concentrated areas or all downtown.
"Looking at other cities, when you want a vibrant area, you need mixed-use housing," she said. "You cannot do it with all high-end housing."
Using a variety of sources, Kishner outlined how a person receiving minimum wage can't afford an average onebedroom apartment. About 26 percent of Tulsans are at risk of homelessness.
The project is seeking funds from government and private sources. It also plans to seek a type of "anti-panhandling" city ordinance, Kishner said.
She said shelters can be a starting point for people without a home.
"We need to stop the revolving door," Kishner said. "Even though the shelters are doing a wonderful job taking care of people and helping them, there is no place to transition them into housing that is affordable."
BUILDING TULSA, BUILDING LIVES
Homeless:
611 people are homeless each night
220 are chronically homeless; others are situationally homeless
About 10 percent are former foster children
About 60 percent of chronically homeless people have mental health problems
26 percent of Tulsans are one paycheck away from homelessness
Project:
611 scattered units costing $31,505 per unit
$41.3 million in savings from costs such as emergency room visits, unpaid hospital bills and incarceration
Source: Building Tulsa, Building Lives project
Sounds like this is only the first of several buildings or living options that will be scattered around the city for the chronically homeless. This one building isnt going to be enough.
IMO moving the occupants of the YMCA out of downtown is only the first of a number of moves to come in the future.
Stayed tuned for moving the county courthouse, the federal courthouse / post office, the county jail and the county library.
I know it will be expensive and I know we just built the jail but moving these elements away from the arena and the ball park has to be in the works.
IMO no hotel is going to be built in the vicinity of the arena as long as those elements are still there.
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
IMO moving the occupants of the YMCA out of downtown is only the first of a number of moves to come in the future.
Stayed tuned for moving the county courthouse, the federal courthouse / post office, the county jail and the county library.
I know it will be expensive and I know we just built the jail but moving these elements away from the arena and the ball park has to be in the works.
IMO no hotel is going to be built in the vicinity of the arena as long as those elements are still there.
I don't buy that another hotel would not be built, but it sure does sound like we are trying to export the homeless from DT with this new building.
Crowne Plaza and Doubletree were both built when all of this was centered downtown. Doubletree was built within two or three blocks of the old jail and the Y.
At this juncture, the most likely development scenario for downtown is....
Ballpark goes in, Greenwood, Brady Arts and Blue dome begin to rapidly infill and redevelop. This will also spill into the East End.
The stadium will act as a draw getting some more people into downtown and of course adding to the "qualaity of life" for Tulsa in general. The areas I mentioned above, will be the places those people will go before and after. The area immediately around the arena to the S E isnt going to be a focus for any real growth for now. I just dont see any large hotel or development going in there at the moment. Any hotels will likely be several small and medium sized ones that go in near the Ballpark. Will also likely see some midrise, contemporary apartments going in that area as well.
If in the future the Brady, Greenwood, Blue dome and East End areas, have taken off and filled in and downtown is starting to thrive. THEN the next area of focus will be the area around the Arena and tying it in with the rest of downtown and the Brady. By then the old city hall may be gone and that space available. The old Courthouse and Library may be needing to be replaced, etc. The canvas "plenty of developable space" and the desire "the rest of downtown bustling and filling up" will be set to see the area around the arena start growing.
Your most likely going to see the North and East part of downtown see the growth at the moment. Then it will shift to other areas down the road. Doesnt mean the arena was a bad idea or in a bad location. It will help downtown grow, and add to the cities attractiveness and quality of life. The location is good in that it can have synergies with the old Convention Center and the parking garages that are around it. Its simply that at the moment, the best areas for development are going to be around the Ballpark.
Artist, had trouble getting past the word "rapidly" in the first sentence. But your positive attitude is always refreshing. Oh the optimist.... My guess is 15 years out ..... maybe. They better worry about timing. The Areama will throw off fair to good numbers for 2-3 years and then it will be like every other third tier city's demographics with interest waning from potential users. How's the convention bookings coming? The Areama was a bad idea but a worse location.
Moving Federal offices will take a lot longer than 3 years.....FOTD thinketh you best put that thinking cap back on reality. The North end will still take 3-8 years from a developer's perspective. The East End? Give me a catalyst....please. Otherwise, it will continue to languish despite wishful thinking.
Just being realistic....Sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Sounds like this is only the first of several buildings or living options that will be scattered around the city for the chronically homeless. This one building isnt going to be enough.
Is the THA plan to actually build MULTIPLE high-rise housing for the homeless/deranged/drugged/drunk at their property at Admiral Place and Yale?
This could be the first of several buildings.
Once THA gets their first one approved, watch for more at the same location.
Either way, THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
My advice to White City residents:
SELL, while you still can.......
Fraidy Bear strikes again!
They already have a website--that was fast:
http://www.whoownstulsa.org/index.html
Normally, it's the process with which I have a problem. But, in this case, the project is also misplanned, along with a really poor process.
The forced feeding, closed-door planning and failure to yield are disconcerting. They seem intent on making it clear it's not our City, it's theirs, and they get to do what they want.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Artist, had trouble getting past the word "rapidly" in the first sentence. But your positive attitude is always refreshing. Oh the optimist.... My guess is 15 years out ..... maybe. They better worry about timing. The Areama will throw off fair to good numbers for 2-3 years and then it will be like every other third tier city's demographics with interest waning from potential users. How's the convention bookings coming? The Areama was a bad idea but a worse location.
Moving Federal offices will take a lot longer than 3 years.....FOTD thinketh you best put that thinking cap back on reality. The North end will still take 3-8 years from a developer's perspective. The East End? Give me a catalyst....please. Otherwise, it will continue to languish despite wishful thinking.
Just being realistic....Sorry.
I would say 15 years IS rapidly.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
They already have a website--that was fast:
http://www.whoownstulsa.org/index.html
Me likey, Me likey lot!
All political power is inherent in the people
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/1358884923_m.gif)
Article 2 Section 1 Oklahoma Constitution
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
+1
Most of the residents at the Y have a job. A low-paying job, but a job. Many are on disability. Without an affordable place to live like the Y or a comparable facility, they
would be homeless.
The silent nature with which this is being shoved up the tailpipes of surrounding residents is what I've got a problem with. I think this is bad faith on the government's part and does nothing to ease the hyperbole about the "impact of homeless people" wandering the neighborhoods.
There is a lot of fear-mongering about what would happen to surrounding property values and the image of zombie vagrants walking about the area. The reality is, these are apparently people who are being transitioned back to having a home and being employed, this does not appear to be a shelter like Starvation Army or DCFTH which attracts the most hard-core of the homeless. If I have missed something on what it is and is not, please feel free to correct me.
A lot of the fear is un-warranted:
Wings of Freedom operates a female drug offender halfway house on the south end of the Patrick Henry addition, as well as a men's halfway house elsewhere in mid-town. The highrise across from Veteran's Park which looks like it belongs in Beirut is home to mentally ill and is within wandering distance of the SoBo entertainment district and Maple Ridge.
There are also substance-abuser group homes scattered throughout the city, some in very nice neighborhoods. I know of one in particular just north of 61st between Harvard and Yale a few houses from my mother's. It's been there for a couple of years and there's never been so much as a police response to the address.
All of the above-mentioned residences and programs appear to co-exist peacefully with their surrounding neighbors.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
They already have a website--that was fast:
http://www.whoownstulsa.org/index.html
PM....sorry.
FOR THOSE WHO ESTABLISHED AND SUPPORT THIS SITE YOU LINK!:
Don't bite the good hands that generously donate compassion and care, money and property, to do the work to help the helpless.
While FOTD claims to be the devil's advocate on this site he abhors hate aimed at those that reach out to lift up the sick, neglected and less fortunate.
Who owns you Pukes? Not your conscience.
Mean People Suck! Get it?
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
+1
Most of the residents at the Y have a job. A low-paying job, but a job. Many are on disability. Without an affordable place to live like the Y or a comparable facility, they would be homeless.
The YMCA has done a very good job of offering inexpensive, short-term housing for those men needing spartan, dormitory-room type lodging.
The Y has a variety of transients, including recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, emotionally disturbed, and others in transition, trying to work their way back into normal society.
The Tulsa Fire Chief has an unbridled agenda to promote a ruinously expensive building code change requiring implementation of an active fire suppression system in all existing downtown high-rises.
The Fire Suppression Industry has been vigorously promoting this retroactive building code change across the country in order to require a building code MANDATE that will line their pockets.
However, most jurisdictions have been too smart to bite.
This mandate kills the value of older high-rises that under existing building codes do not need an active fire suppression system, and are not undergoing a major change in use or rehabilitation requiring the installation of an active fire suppression system.
The Fire Chief's agenda fits hand-in-glove with the local ruling power establishment's desire to run the transient population OUT of downtown Tulsa.
Hence, plans to close the YMCA by 2010.
Perfect fit.
It's funny... I'm not against building a shelter, and I'm tempted to cite property rights, existing zoning, etc to support it.
But at the same time, I believe that people shouldn't be able to randomly tear down historic buildings that they own....because of the impact on the surrounding neighborhood and the loss to future generations. (Believing that irreplaceable architecture should, in some way, trump the short-sighted desire to destroy history through demolition.)
Mr. Spock would not be ambivalent....it must be a human trait....
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
+1
Most of the residents at the Y have a job. A low-paying job, but a job. Many are on disability. Without an affordable place to live like the Y or a comparable facility, they would be homeless.
The YMCA has done a very good job of offering inexpensive, short-term housing for those men needing spartan, dormitory-room type lodging.
The Y has a variety of transients, including recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, emotionally disturbed, and others in transition, trying to work their way back into normal society.
The Tulsa Fire Chief has an unbridled agenda to promote a ruinously expensive building code change requiring implementation of an active fire suppression system in all existing downtown high-rises.
The Fire Suppression Industry has been vigorously promoting this retroactive building code change across the country in order to require a building code MANDATE that will line their pockets.
However, most jurisdictions have been too smart to bite.
This mandate kills the value of older high-rises that under existing building codes do not need an active fire suppression system, and are not undergoing a major change in use or rehabilitation requiring the installation of an active fire suppression system.
The Fire Chief's agenda fits hand-in-glove with the local ruling power establishment's desire to run the transient population OUT of downtown Tulsa.
Hence, plans to close the YMCA by 2010.
Perfect fit.
You are way off-base on a hidden agenda to benefit
local fire control companies with this one project and your assertion that suddenly the COT is using the IFC's as a form of emminent domain. The COT implements many national codes, of which, the origins could be from fire protection advocates (i.e. fire marshals) or industry-driven (sprinker companies).
The powers that be at the local office of Simplex-Grinnel and Mac Systems are far too busy to be lobbying the city to tear down the Y, just so they can get in on some sprinkler action at a new shelter.
International Fire Code, International Mechanical Code, International Building Code etc. ad nauseum are accepted by many municipalities. They are a pain in the donkey to deal with and there's a lot of redundancy when comparing with state code requirements. As over-reaching as they may seem at times to those in the construction industry, they do serve the purpose of protecting the public. It's one rare instance of where I feel government works for the common good.
I am guessing that in order for the old Y to be used as a "housing first" type program it would require substantially more than just a new fire repression system. It would essentially need to be gutted and rebuilt. Not sure how feasible or cost effective that would be. Housing first programs have it so that the homeless person has their own place. They get the key to their own apartment, sometimes one thats shared. Its not a dorm or institutional type environment with a lot of rules. Its a real place they can call their own with a bathroom, kitchen, bedroom, etc. I dont know for certain, but I am just guessing that the old Y isnt set up like that? And if not it would probably require extensive remodeling and wouldn't be able to have as many tennants.
However, if it were possible to purchase and remodel the old building properly, with the added fire prevention stuff etc., at a cost that would be less than the new building... that would have been the way to go. If anything just because there are a lot of services and opportunities nearby for the homeless to utilize. You could have used any money saved, to provide more case workers and services for the tennants. I just dont know how the numbers would work out for doing that?
I also dont think it would have been a problem for visitors to downtown or the arena. Its the downtown of a city for goodness sakes. A city dweller just almost expects to see people like that, its part of the landscape of a city. Even Mayberry had its town drunk, Otis wasnt it? lol As for the arena and guests there, I hardly think a couple of raggedy looking individuals would be all that disconcerting when there are crowds of thousands going in and out of the arena for events. They would survive the indignity of having to see a few "bums". And again, a remodeled Y would have fewer tennants and hopefully better programs and services for them.
It's going to take more than moving the Y and making apartments all over Tulsa to remove what some consider unsightly.
We are already seeing more intersections with people holding signs for food all over Tulsa also. There are more out of town visitors to Tulsa in these other areas than will be in downtown. The sight is not going anywhere out of town , just shared in more areas and growing as THA spreads the kindness.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
It's going to take more than moving the Y and making apartments all over Tulsa to remove what some consider unsightly.
We are already seeing more intersections with people holding signs for food all over Tulsa also. There are more out of town visitors to Tulsa in these other areas than will be in downtown. The sight is not going anywhere out of town , just shared in more areas and growing as THA spreads the kindness.
In most cases the sign holders are not the homeless, they are opportunists and grifters that know how much money can be made holding a cardboard sign and preying on the sympathy of others.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
+1
Most of the residents at the Y have a job. A low-paying job, but a job. Many are on disability. Without an affordable place to live like the Y or a comparable facility, they would be homeless.
The YMCA has done a very good job of offering inexpensive, short-term housing for those men needing spartan, dormitory-room type lodging.
The Y has a variety of transients, including recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, emotionally disturbed, and others in transition, trying to work their way back into normal society.
The Tulsa Fire Chief has an unbridled agenda to promote a ruinously expensive building code change requiring implementation of an active fire suppression system in all existing downtown high-rises.
The Fire Suppression Industry has been vigorously promoting this retroactive building code change across the country in order to require a building code MANDATE that will line their pockets.
However, most jurisdictions have been too smart to bite.
This mandate kills the value of older high-rises that under existing building codes do not need an active fire suppression system, and are not undergoing a major change in use or rehabilitation requiring the installation of an active fire suppression system.
The Fire Chief's agenda fits hand-in-glove with the local ruling power establishment's desire to run the transient population OUT of downtown Tulsa.
Hence, plans to close the YMCA by 2010.
Perfect fit.
You are way off-base on a hidden agenda to benefit local fire control companies with this one project and your assertion that suddenly the COT is using the IFC's as a form of emminent domain. The COT implements many national codes, of which, the origins could be from fire protection advocates (i.e. fire marshals) or industry-driven (sprinker companies).
The powers that be at the local office of Simplex-Grinnel and Mac Systems are far too busy to be lobbying the city to tear down the Y, just so they can get in on some sprinkler action at a new shelter.
International Fire Code, International Mechanical Code, International Building Code etc. ad nauseum are accepted by many municipalities. They are a pain in the donkey to deal with and there's a lot of redundancy when comparing with state code requirements. As over-reaching as they may seem at times to those in the construction industry, they do serve the purpose of protecting the public. It's one rare instance of where I feel government works for the common good.
It definitely is the NATIONAL Fire Suppression Industry that is trying to get a segue into at least one major city to require the adoption of city fire and building codes that
REQUIRE the RETROFIT of active fire suppression systems on ALL high rises, regardless of when built.
That MANDATE will collectively put $billions into their pockets.
Existing buildings that complied with existing building code when they were built typically do not have to retrofit to meet changes in the codes until they make a substantial change in the building use or function.
This mandate will force the installation of active fire suppression systems into all high rise buildings.
Remember the big fight between the downtown Tulsa residential high-rise condo associations and the City Fire Chief over this proposal??
They went to WAR against the Tulsa Fire Chief, who was carrying the water for the national Fire Suppression Industry over this proposal, which would require $1,000,000's to retrofit active fire suppression systems into their solid concrete structures, built as "fire-proof" back in the 1960's.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
QuoteOriginally posted by MDepr2007
In most cases the sign holders are not the homeless, they are opportunists and grifters that know how much money can be made holding a cardboard sign and preying on the sympathy of others.
+1 on that. They do well enough to contact each other by cell phone. Street performers with a hangover.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
+1
Most of the residents at the Y have a job. A low-paying job, but a job. Many are on disability. Without an affordable place to live like the Y or a comparable facility, they would be homeless.
The YMCA has done a very good job of offering inexpensive, short-term housing for those men needing spartan, dormitory-room type lodging.
The Y has a variety of transients, including recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, emotionally disturbed, and others in transition, trying to work their way back into normal society.
The Tulsa Fire Chief has an unbridled agenda to promote a ruinously expensive building code change requiring implementation of an active fire suppression system in all existing downtown high-rises.
The Fire Suppression Industry has been vigorously promoting this retroactive building code change across the country in order to require a building code MANDATE that will line their pockets.
However, most jurisdictions have been too smart to bite.
This mandate kills the value of older high-rises that under existing building codes do not need an active fire suppression system, and are not undergoing a major change in use or rehabilitation requiring the installation of an active fire suppression system.
The Fire Chief's agenda fits hand-in-glove with the local ruling power establishment's desire to run the transient population OUT of downtown Tulsa.
Hence, plans to close the YMCA by 2010.
Perfect fit.
You are way off-base on a hidden agenda to benefit local fire control companies with this one project and your assertion that suddenly the COT is using the IFC's as a form of emminent domain. The COT implements many national codes, of which, the origins could be from fire protection advocates (i.e. fire marshals) or industry-driven (sprinker companies).
The powers that be at the local office of Simplex-Grinnel and Mac Systems are far too busy to be lobbying the city to tear down the Y, just so they can get in on some sprinkler action at a new shelter.
International Fire Code, International Mechanical Code, International Building Code etc. ad nauseum are accepted by many municipalities. They are a pain in the donkey to deal with and there's a lot of redundancy when comparing with state code requirements. As over-reaching as they may seem at times to those in the construction industry, they do serve the purpose of protecting the public. It's one rare instance of where I feel government works for the common good.
It definitely is the NATIONAL Fire Suppression Industry that is trying to get a segue into at least one major city to require the adoption of city fire and building codes that REQUIRE the RETROFIT of active fire suppression systems on ALL high rises, regardless of when built.
That MANDATE will collectively put $billions into their pockets.
Existing buildings that complied with existing building code when they were built typically do not have to retrofit to meet changes in the codes until they make a substantial change in the building use or function.
This mandate will force the installation of active fire suppression systems into all high rise buildings.
Remember the big fight between the downtown Tulsa residential high-rise condo associations and the City Fire Chief over this proposal??
They went to WAR against the Tulsa Fire Chief, who was carrying the water for the national Fire Suppression Industry over this proposal, which would require $1,000,000's to retrofit active fire suppression systems into their solid concrete structures, built as "fire-proof" back in the 1960's.
There was a pretty big fire back in the 70's I believe in the London Square apartments and shopping area. Seems it was exacerbated by not having "firewalls" between units or the firewalls didn't extend into the attics. Suddenly we realized that many of Tulsa's apartments built during the 60's boom did not have them even though builders/developers knew of their importance. They just followed the existing code.
Is that what you are championing? Grandfathering in outdated construction that escalates fires? That's a poor argument.
When I spoke with Kent Moreland (sp?) at lunch one day during his election campaign I seem to remember that he was unhappy with the all or nothing approach the Chief was taking. He wasn't against gradually adding fire suppression methods. But then he seemed pretty reasonable and didn't see it as conspiracy by anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The YMCA was not running a "homeless" shelter. They were providing affordable living for people that needed a hand. They also had in house services to help the clients look for work and acquire appropriate clothes to interview. How can anyone be against a facility that will help people get back on their feet and become constructive members of society?
+1
Most of the residents at the Y have a job. A low-paying job, but a job. Many are on disability. Without an affordable place to live like the Y or a comparable facility, they would be homeless.
The YMCA has done a very good job of offering inexpensive, short-term housing for those men needing spartan, dormitory-room type lodging.
The Y has a variety of transients, including recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, emotionally disturbed, and others in transition, trying to work their way back into normal society.
The Tulsa Fire Chief has an unbridled agenda to promote a ruinously expensive building code change requiring implementation of an active fire suppression system in all existing downtown high-rises.
The Fire Suppression Industry has been vigorously promoting this retroactive building code change across the country in order to require a building code MANDATE that will line their pockets.
However, most jurisdictions have been too smart to bite.
This mandate kills the value of older high-rises that under existing building codes do not need an active fire suppression system, and are not undergoing a major change in use or rehabilitation requiring the installation of an active fire suppression system.
The Fire Chief's agenda fits hand-in-glove with the local ruling power establishment's desire to run the transient population OUT of downtown Tulsa.
Hence, plans to close the YMCA by 2010.
Perfect fit.
You are way off-base on a hidden agenda to benefit local fire control companies with this one project and your assertion that suddenly the COT is using the IFC's as a form of emminent domain. The COT implements many national codes, of which, the origins could be from fire protection advocates (i.e. fire marshals) or industry-driven (sprinker companies).
The powers that be at the local office of Simplex-Grinnel and Mac Systems are far too busy to be lobbying the city to tear down the Y, just so they can get in on some sprinkler action at a new shelter.
International Fire Code, International Mechanical Code, International Building Code etc. ad nauseum are accepted by many municipalities. They are a pain in the donkey to deal with and there's a lot of redundancy when comparing with state code requirements. As over-reaching as they may seem at times to those in the construction industry, they do serve the purpose of protecting the public. It's one rare instance of where I feel government works for the common good.
It definitely is the NATIONAL Fire Suppression Industry that is trying to get a segue into at least one major city to require the adoption of city fire and building codes that REQUIRE the RETROFIT of active fire suppression systems on ALL high rises, regardless of when built.
That MANDATE will collectively put $billions into their pockets.
Existing buildings that complied with existing building code when they were built typically do not have to retrofit to meet changes in the codes until they make a substantial change in the building use or function.
This mandate will force the installation of active fire suppression systems into all high rise buildings.
Remember the big fight between the downtown Tulsa residential high-rise condo associations and the City Fire Chief over this proposal??
They went to WAR against the Tulsa Fire Chief, who was carrying the water for the national Fire Suppression Industry over this proposal, which would require $1,000,000's to retrofit active fire suppression systems into their solid concrete structures, built as "fire-proof" back in the 1960's.
There was a pretty big fire back in the 70's I believe in the London Square apartments and shopping area. Seems it was exacerbated by not having "firewalls" between units or the firewalls didn't extend into the attics. Suddenly we realized that many of Tulsa's apartments built during the 60's boom did not have them even though builders/developers knew of their importance. They just followed the existing code.
Is that what you are championing? Grandfathering in outdated construction that escalates fires? That's a poor argument.
When I spoke with Kent Moreland (sp?) at lunch one day during his election campaign I seem to remember that he was unhappy with the all or nothing approach the Chief was taking. He wasn't against gradually adding fire suppression methods. But then he seemed pretty reasonable and didn't see it as conspiracy by anyone.
I'm actually in favor of following common sense.
There is a cost-benefit relationship to any retrofit.
The cost to retrofit is definite and concrete.
However, the benefit is amorphous, like someone "might" die if there is no active fire suppression system in an older high-rise. Maybe. Possibly.
Has
ANYONE died in Tulsa in the last 40 years in a major fire in a high-rise office or residential building?
I think that answer is:
NO.
So, retrofitting existing buildings to comply with the zealotry of those public officials shouting "We'll Be SAFER", when they are simply carrying the water for the vested financial interests of a particular industry is stupidity defined.
Furthermore, I would say that lack of an adequate city code inspection during the construction of homes and buildings is 1000X the problem of what is or is not in the actual building code.
Original homeowners only find out years later when they try to sell their homes that they were not built to code in some respect, even though those homes successfully passed FINAL CITY of TULSA Building INSPECTIONS.
Then the homeowners have to retrofit to fix the code defects in order to pass the Home Inspection to sell.
That's the REAL swindle.
You might say that, but at the time the problem was that the city code didn't require them but they were known to contain fires to smaller areas. Any fireman or developer/builder could tell you even in the 1960's that they could not effectively fight a fire above the 4th floor in the multi-story residences that were being built. But they were built anyway to existing city codes.
Are you saying that we don't have enough city inspectors or that they don't do an adequate job? What difference does it make if fire suppression sprinklers weren't required when the high rises were built?
Wow, you entirely changed your post before I could respond. Just like arguing with my teenager.[:D]
If fire suppression systems are not needed in residential high rises, then it follows they aren't needed in commercial and industrial settings either. Might as well nip this conspiracy in the bud...In The Bud!
Good luck on getting the insurance companies to sign on to that. Commercial companies see the cost/benefit as positive as well. Perhaps they are getting kickbacks from the fire sprinkler companies too. Its a huge web of vipers using safety as their tool I guess. I was totally unaware.
Maybe the reason why more Tulsans don't die in fires is because we follow fire codes.
I am sorry, friendly bear. Of all your wild conspiracy theories, saying the homeless are being run out of downtown by the Fire Marshall is your dumbest.
The Fire Marshall didn't just pick one building of near homeless people and make up special rules. He is trying to keep Tulsa safe and following the international guidelines.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Maybe the reason why more Tulsans don't die in fires is because we follow fire codes.
I am sorry, friendly bear. Of all your wild conspiracy theories, saying the homeless are being run out of downtown by the Fire Marshall is your dumbest.
The Fire Marshall didn't just pick one building of near homeless people and make up special rules. He is trying to keep Tulsa safe and following the international guidelines.
Yup. I know someone who lives in the Sophian, and they b*tched a lot about having to retrofit sprinkler systems in the building. But that's where my friend and I parted ways -- especially in a really old building like that one.
Fire prevention in high-rises is a good thing. No sense in having another Triangle Shirtwaist situation nearly a century after it occurred.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Maybe the reason why more Tulsans don't die in fires is because we follow fire codes.
I am sorry, friendly bear. Of all your wild conspiracy theories, saying the homeless are being run out of downtown by the Fire Marshall is your dumbest.
The Fire Marshall didn't just pick one building of near homeless people and make up special rules. He is trying to keep Tulsa safe and following the international guidelines.
The Fire Marshal can certainly be pursuing multiple objectives in his intentional zealotry regarding retrofitting automatic sprinkler systems in high-rises.
1) Serve the financial interests of his future employer: The Fire Suppression Industry, or the Fire Truck Industry with MANDATES.
2) Ingratiate himself with the local power oligarchy by closing down low-cost, affordable housing downtown, and running the dregs away from their shiny new Arena with High-Rise building Automatic Fire Suppression System mandates.
3) Maybe he'll do a Tom Baker, too, and roll-out of retirement as Fire Chief, with the Lorton's World endorsement into a city council seat.
Again, name a single, major fire in a downtown Tulsa high-rise
in the past 40 years that killed even ONE person?
It's a Solution Looking for a Problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Maybe the reason why more Tulsans don't die in fires is because we follow fire codes.
I am sorry, friendly bear. Of all your wild conspiracy theories, saying the homeless are being run out of downtown by the Fire Marshall is your dumbest.
The Fire Marshall didn't just pick one building of near homeless people and make up special rules. He is trying to keep Tulsa safe and following the international guidelines.
Again, name a single, major fire in a downtown Tulsa high-rise in the past 40 years that killed even ONE person?
That's a really poor reason to NOT have fire codes, Bear.
Do you have to actually HAVE a dead person before they're needed?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Maybe the reason why more Tulsans don't die in fires is because we follow fire codes.
I am sorry, friendly bear. Of all your wild conspiracy theories, saying the homeless are being run out of downtown by the Fire Marshall is your dumbest.
The Fire Marshall didn't just pick one building of near homeless people and make up special rules. He is trying to keep Tulsa safe and following the international guidelines.
Again, name a single, major fire in a downtown Tulsa high-rise in the past 40 years that killed even ONE person?
That's a really poor reason to NOT have fire codes, Bear.
Do you have to actually HAVE a dead person before they're needed?
You're trying to twist your LIE into my remarks.
I did NOT say we did NOT NEED FIRE CODES.
We have been benefitting from fire codes since at least the 1920's.
That's why tall buildings were built with:
Fire Escapes.
Fire Resistant Materials.
Published Escape Routes.
Emergency Lighting.
Fire Alarms.
Progress and fire standards were, however, INCREMENTAL.
By way of comparison on snail-pace initiatives to save lives, it was a well-established FACT, that a SIZEABLE, RECURRING BODY COUNT was one of the reasons that the U.S. DOT finally mandated:
Automobile Seat Belts.
Remember?
After YEARS of doing:
Nothing.Thousands and thousands of killed or maimed drivers and passengers YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR before the belts became standard, mandatory auto equipment.
As a result, thousands upon thousands of lives are saved yearly.
Then, in their adopted safety zealotry, the U.S. DOT went even further, so we now have automatic Air Bags.
And, fewer drivers now wear their seat belts, as a result.
I'm all for putting in an automatic fire suppression system in a NEW CONSTRUCTION. That is the CURRENT national fire safety building codes for high rise buildings.
That is not the high cost proposition that RETROFITTING them into existing buildings that complied with existing fire codes when built.
We're not talking about what the Bear wants. We're talking about whether the fire marshall is using fire codes to run homeless out of the downtown area. With your assertion, he is willing to also empty out Sophian Plaza, Liberty Towers, Central Plaza etc. just to make sure he gets downtown cleaned up and a job with the national assn. when he retires.
Quite a campfire story there, Bear.
Does anyone know why they are requiring sprinklers at the Y? After all, they exempted Sophian Plaza, Liberty Towers, et al.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
We're not talking about what the Bear wants. We're talking about whether the fire marshall is using fire codes to run homeless out of the downtown area. With your assertion, he is willing to also empty out Sophian Plaza, Liberty Towers, Central Plaza etc. just to make sure he gets downtown cleaned up and a job with the national assn. when he retires.
Quite a campfire story there, Bear.
Different agendas.
You're sophisticated enough to know that a public official can have multiple agendas, right?
Like when a politician starts agitating for a new public facility saying "It's All About Jobs", that his ADDITIONAL agenda item might be to ingratiate himself to the local connected construction cabal, right?
So, our noble Fire Chief certainly is carrying the water for the national Fire Protection/Detection/Suppression Industry by agitating for RETROFIT of active Fire Suppression Systems in existing high rises.
That agenda item might also just serve his and other agendas, such as the Zarrow Family, to advance "Affordable Housing" initiatives, and to also advance another Agenda item of local ruling Oligarchy Families to clean out the homeless and hopeless from downtown.
Because they want to show off the bright, shiny new Arena.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
Does anyone know why they are requiring sprinklers at the Y? After all, they exempted Sophian Plaza, Liberty Towers, et al.
Who is included in et al and why were these others exempted? That gives one pause. The only reason I could see is if they were constructed so as to be sufficiently safe without sprinklers such as protective barriers between units, fireproof materials or dedicated fire hoses on each floor.
We never had fire sprinklers in Walker Towers dorm rooms. Either they were safely constructed or they didn't care that much about us. Cause if we did we would have set them off routinely.[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
So, our noble Fire Chief certainly is carrying the water for the national Fire Protection/Detection/Suppression Industry...
First of all...our fire department doesn't carry water much. We are a big city...we spray water now.
Secondly, you make it sound wrong that our fire department cares about making buildings fire safe. That is their job.
Why don't you go back to your job riding a bike at the circus?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
So, our noble Fire Chief certainly is carrying the water for the national Fire Protection/Detection/Suppression Industry...
First of all...our fire department doesn't carry water much. We are a big city...we spray water now.
Secondly, you make it sound wrong that our fire department cares about making buildings fire safe. That is their job.
Why don't you go back to your job riding a bike at the circus?
We know it's the council and not the FC. The FC is there to just set it in motion, besides it would have been the council making the exemptions I beleive[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
So, our noble Fire Chief certainly is carrying the water for the national Fire Protection/Detection/Suppression Industry...
First of all...our fire department doesn't carry water much. We are a big city...we spray water now.
Secondly, you make it sound wrong that our fire department cares about making buildings fire safe. That is their job.
Why don't you go back to your job riding a bike at the circus?
The Tulsa Fire Chief is just tangentially employed as a City of Tulsa Civil Service employee.
More directly, his sustenance and professional affinity and support comes from the Fire Suppression/Detection/Provisioning industries.
Like those who sell building automated sprinkler systems.
Like those companies that sell shiny new $400-$600K fire trucks, which our city police department quickly burn up racing to EMT-related fainting spells at local nursing homes.
You think the Fire Chief works for US?
Bull-oney.
He and his Deputy Chiefs are working on their NEXT job:
NAFED, SFPE, ADT, 3-M, Grinnell, Johnson Controls, etc.
Don't you get it?
[:O]
You must be mistaken, bear. Our fire department top management doesn't change much. We have had only two fire chiefs in probably thirty years.
You are just making stuff up to prove your mistaken fantasies. You really should give up on this one and save your strength for your next conspiracy pipe dream.
I can't remember what this thread was about...
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
Does anyone know why they are requiring sprinklers at the Y? After all, they exempted Sophian Plaza, Liberty Towers, et al.
Who is included in et al and why were these others exempted? That gives one pause. The only reason I could see is if they were constructed so as to be sufficiently safe without sprinklers such as protective barriers between units, fireproof materials or dedicated fire hoses on each floor.
We never had fire sprinklers in Walker Towers dorm rooms. Either they were safely constructed or they didn't care that much about us. Cause if we did we would have set them off routinely.[;)]
It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that City Council a few years back voted to exempt all of the downtown residential buildings from installing sprinklers. Very recently, I think that some additional fire precautions were required on those buildings, but still no sprinklers.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
You must be mistaken, bear. Our fire department top management doesn't change much. We have had only two fire chiefs in probably thirty years.
You are just making stuff up to prove your mistaken fantasies. You really should give up on this one and save your strength for your next conspiracy pipe dream.
Today's Lorton's World article proves that the Fire Chief is working together with the power establishment to move the homeless, mental cases over to White City, as well as deny FREEDOM OF SPEECH to White City residents:
The Mental Health Association had a meeting today where the 70 unit facility was APPROVED.
The meeting was filled to capacity and was interrupted several times by shouting and applause.
Several people who live near where the development is planned were not allowed to enter the meeting because of fire codes.http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080812_296_Afte687402
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Today's Lorton's World article proves that the Fire Chief is working together with the power establishment to move the homeless, mental cases over to White City, as well as deny FREEDOM OF SPEECH to White City residents
...
Several people who live near where the development is planned were not allowed to enter the meeting because of fire codes.
Did the Fire Chief change the occupany limits immediately before the meeting?
Isn't the actual "Y" moving into the MAYO Hotel?
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Isn't the actual "Y" moving into the MAYO Hotel?
Mayo Building I think (5th and Main) not hotel.
I think they should build the new unit on the site of the old Homeland on Denver just down the street from the current Y. Riverview is used to having the homeless population in close proximity, put it there.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I think they should build the new unit on the site of the old Homeland on Denver just down the street from the current Y. Riverview is used to having the homeless population in close proximity, put it there.
THERE's an idea.
However, the THA may not already own the land where the old Homeland Store is located at 11th and Denver.
Wasn't that near the location that the proposed "Grand Central Library" was to be built....on Schusterman land?
Right across Denver Avenue?
Maybe the Schustermans, the Zarrows, the Kaisers and the Rabinowitzs could convene a minion to decide the issue......
[:D]
Maybe I was dropped on my head, but I'm pretty sure it's the YMCA GYM that's moving.
Homeless people are not gym equipment.
So it looks like the neighbors have organized into an effort to recall Gomez and Patrick. See their website, whoownstulsa.com. Good question.
This has been described as a high rise. I saw the rendering on the news this morning and its a rather nice looking spread out complex that appeared no more than a few stories tall.
How embarrassing that the White City crowd lights their torches and starts boiling the tar. They have worked no harder in solidifying their neighborhoods than Riverview, Maple Ridge, Tracy Park or other midtown hoods that have group homes, treatment centers and homeless populations.
The lady on camera representing them bitterly asked "Would you want them in your neighborhood?" repeatedly. Well, ma'am. We do and we don't suffer for it.
Lately, I'm of the opinion that Tulsan's just like getting angry and being against change of any sort. Some on here enjoy the spectacle and throw fuel on the fire for their own ego. The idea that every project and those behind it are evil, nefarious, self serving and incompetent is getting real tiresome. It will eventually stifle our city altoghether.
They say "homeless hi-rise" because it sounds good.
70-whatever units is not that big. Probably have that many mental patients on Admiral right now, with or without the building.
(http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/33103/5m/kjrhimg.dayport.com/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1218432932306_0p08432485327903938.jpg)
I support the ideal of housing for the homeless. We are a wealthy enough nation that we should not have people living on the streets, especially when they are there because of mental or other illnesses. And I think facilities like this have the potential to save us a ton of money.
There have been studies that show that it's far cheaper (not to mention kinder) to house and take proper care of the homeless. When a street person today isn't feeling well and it's cold out they simply do something to get arrested. We suddenly incur the cost of arresting, and then housing the homeless person in jail. If he's really sick we then have emergency healthcare costs we pay for. If charges are pressed we have court time and cost. All that just because it was cold out and he didn't feel well. A single homeless man can cost the public hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in this way. It's far cheaper to house, feed and give basic non-emergency medical care.
But, Facilities like this done at the local level are a losing proposition. If we created great facilities like this for all of our homeless people we are just going to end up with even more people on the streets as more homeless migrate here from other places to take advantage of what we offer. We will become (if we are not already) a haven for the homeless. This kind of project needs to be done, it would save the public a ton of money in healthcare, social services and law enforcement just to name a few. But it needs to be done at a national level, not local.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Maybe I was dropped on my head, but I'm pretty sure it's the YMCA GYM that's moving.
Homeless people are not gym equipment.
Basically they are moving the "gym" but they are also getting out of the "homeless business" as well, so are leaving the whole building.
You can ask why the donors arent buying the old building from the Y and refurbishing it into a "housing first" program. But even then they would need some place to house these people while that was being done. Its likely the whole building would need to be gutted.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
I support the ideal of housing for the homeless. We are a wealthy enough nation that we should not have people living on the streets, especially when they are there because of mental or other illnesses. And I think facilities like this have the potential to save us a ton of money.
There have been studies that show that it's far cheaper (not to mention kinder) to house and take proper care of the homeless. When a street person today isn't feeling well and it's cold out they simply do something to get arrested. We suddenly incur the cost of arresting, and then housing the homeless person in jail. If he's really sick we then have emergency healthcare costs we pay for. If charges are pressed we have court time and cost. All that just because it was cold out and he didn't feel well. A single homeless man can cost the public hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in this way. It's far cheaper to house, feed and give basic non-emergency medical care.
But, Facilities like this done at the local level are a losing proposition. If we created great facilities like this for all of our homeless people we are just going to end up with even more people on the streets as more homeless migrate here from other places to take advantage of what we offer. We will become (if we are not already) a haven for the homeless. This kind of project needs to be done, it would save the public a ton of money in healthcare, social services and law enforcement just to name a few. But it needs to be done at a national level, not local.
Fortunately this type of "housing first" program has been active across the nation and many cities are using it. Tulsa is actually behind the curve.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
This has been described as a high rise. I saw the rendering on the news this morning and its a rather nice looking spread out complex that appeared no more than a few stories tall.
How embarrassing that the White City crowd lights their torches and starts boiling the tar. They have worked no harder in solidifying their neighborhoods than Riverview, Maple Ridge, Tracy Park or other midtown hoods that have group homes, treatment centers and homeless populations.
The lady on camera representing them bitterly asked "Would you want them in your neighborhood?" repeatedly. Well, ma'am. We do and we don't suffer for it.
Lately, I'm of the opinion that Tulsan's just like getting angry and being against change of any sort. Some on here enjoy the spectacle and throw fuel on the fire for their own ego. The idea that every project and those behind it are evil, nefarious, self serving and incompetent is getting real tiresome. It will eventually stifle our city altoghether.
I agree with your assessment. But...
I think the city could have saved a whole lot of grief if they would have been more up-front about the whole project. Instead, they are standing by statements that posting legal notices in the paper was sufficient.
Both Patrick and Gomez could have informed residents this was coming and informed people of what this project is and is not.
Instead, it's got the markings of an under-handed project to import a bunch of mentally-ill social rejects to their neighborhoods.
The best way to create fear is through ignorance. If local residents were not enlightened to the project, it should come as no surprise the have negative paradigms about it.
I also think this is also a poor location. I agree it's not a "residential area" the way some are saying. The site is in a run down commercial strip between I-244 and Admiral that stretches for miles. Across Admiral is a cemetery. The only nearby homes on that side of I-244 are on the northeast corner of Yale and Admiral and they are set pretty far back.
But, this location is still a poor choice. This facility will impact the TU area right on the other side of I-244, and that's bad. This isn't being NIMBY, it's that we should want to follow the European city model as noted on another recent thread on the evolution of cities. The core of a city should be it's most desirable part. The area around TU should be one of our "core" areas that we need to fight to support. Downtown is the center of our core and this facility should not be located there either. A location further out that has access to entry level employment, social services and medical care is what we need to find. Access to those services via transit is and should be perfectly acceptable. Good locations might include near the airport or Port of Catoosa or Cherokee Industrial Park. Entry level jobs are plentiful in those locations and if they don't have access transit now, they should as employment centers anyway and locating a facility like this nearby would only increase the need.
We need to stop making all the same old mistakes are rethink what and where we do things.
How did White City get its name?
I don't know, and I'm genuinely curious.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
How did White City get its name?
I don't know, and I'm genuinely curious.
It's named after a family farm that used to be there.
http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Community/Neighborhoods/SignGuide.asp
http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Community/Neighborhoods/images/whitecitysmall_000.jpg
For some reason I believe it was at one time a large Dairy Farm called White's Dairy.
It is more than that.
Here is a link...
http://www.tulsapreservationcommission.org/nationalregister/districts/whitecity/significance/
Glenn Braden founded Oklahoma Natural Gas company. He also had a big family dairy farm.
He was quite the benevolent person and would hire people down on their luck to whitewash his home, his barns and his picket fence. They all had many coats of fresh white paint and was known as that "white city" outside of town.
His home later in life still exists at 9th and Braden street. It is white, but hidden behind large bushes. His original pond is where the park is today.
SIGNIFICANCE:
Glenn T. Braden, founder of Oklahoma Natural Gas Company and one of the first proponents of using Oklahoma's wealth of methane gas for fuel, bought the land that later became the White City neighborhood from the Creek Indians in 1912. Early histories of Tulsa indicate that Braden, a Pennsylvania native, brought a herd of Jersey dairy cattle to this area during World War I. He established the White City Jersey Dairy Farm four miles outside the city limits. It was so named because of the color of the buildings and silos Braden built there. After his death, Braden's children closed the dairy, platted the land and began selling lots to employees of the nearby steel and oil field supply companies.
The W.D. McCoy "organization" was put in "...active charge of developing White City and the sale of its acreage tracts." Targeted at Tulsa's middle class, the addition offered "...something new and inviting -- modern suburban acreage." The addition was platted into large acre tracts of various sizes. Many of the streets were graded, rolled and oiled or chatted. City land records show 1946 to be the high-water mark in White City land sales. The open fields began to fill with homes.
One of the important amenities included within the original White City Addition was a park area for the neighborhood. Located towards the southern end of the development, the park was originally called "White City Park." However, within a few years of the neighborhood's opening, the name changed to "Braden Park," under which the park continues to operate. A popular attraction in the park during the 1930s through the late 1940s was a wading pool. The city of Tulsa closed all wading pools in the city in the late 1940s due to a polio scare. In the late 1930s, the WPA undertook some improvements on the park but nothing on a significant scale. Although the facilities in the park have changed over the years, the park continues to be a focus of the neighborhood. Significant churches serving the neighborhood include the White City Baptist Church, the Yale Avenue Presbyterian Church, the Will Rogers Methodist Church and several others.
http://www.neighborhoodlink.com/tulsa/whitecity/history.html
Recent reports indicate the cost of this new building will run upwards of $7 million.
70 units would be an average of $100,000 per unit for a one bedroom.
Wonder if that includes a private bath or a common shower area?
What of the apartments down at 61st and Peoria, did the developers have that much invested in those per unit?
Conan and Swake: good posts that reflect more sane and responsible views. I agree that the two councilors were scared to tell their constituents or were convinced by the donors to keep it hushed because they knew what the response would be. Advice to them is grow some nads and do your duty.
Also agree Swake, considering your "core" philosophy, that there might be better locations near the port or an industrial park. Perhaps open notice might have stimulated some conversation about that but would also have likely driven up acquisition costs.
BTW AMP, wading pools were open all over town during the 1960's. I remember playing in Kendall, Tracey, Braden pools. Some large pools closed over the polio scare, Newblock indoors (Waterworks bldng) I think, but most remained open into the seventies.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Recent reports indicate the cost of this new building will run upwards of $7 million.
70 units would be an average of $100,000 per unit for a one bedroom.
Wonder if that includes a private bath or a common shower area?
What of the apartments down at 61st and Peoria, did the developers have that much invested in those per unit?
Its a "Housing First" program for the umpteenth time. Of course each unit will have its own bath and kitchen, living area, bedrooms etc. These are supposed to be homes, not a place to "crash" or spend a few nights.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
What of the apartments down at 61st and Peoria, did the developers have that much invested in those per unit?
No. More like $10,000 per unit. But that was over 30 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Recent reports indicate the cost of this new building will run upwards of $7 million.
70 units would be an average of $100,000 per unit for a one bedroom.
Wonder if that includes a private bath or a common shower area?
What of the apartments down at 61st and Peoria, did the developers have that much invested in those per unit?
Your per unit cost includes land acquisition. But I don't think those at 61st & Peoria were built for the same purpose and the land costs were cheaper for the ones built in the 60's. They may have been low income subsidized though.
Land costs? I'd think the Helmerichs would be donating the old Warehouse Market. But maybe they sold it in the last two years to some other party who is "flipping" it for profit.
$100,000 per unit.
How many square feet is each unit and are they limited to one person or multi people in each unit?
Is $100,000 for that number of square feet the standard costs for construction for apartments today?
Sorry,did a McCainism. I don't know if the land is going to be donated or if someone is handling a sale. Its just not a good comparison on several fronts.
Believe the land at Lewis and I-244 is already owned by the City of Tulsa. Where the old Whitier school was.
Also what about the corner of Peoria and I-44, didn't the City take that when the Camelot was destroyed. That building would of been good for this purpose.
No I believe Quiktrip owns that.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Believe the land at Lewis and I-244 is already owned by the City of Tulsa. Where the old Whitier school was.
Also what about the corner of Peoria and I-44, didn't the City take that when the Camelot was destroyed. That building would of been good for this purpose.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Believe the land at Lewis and I-244 is already owned by the City of Tulsa. Where the old Whitier school was.
Also what about the corner of Peoria and I-44, didn't the City take that when the Camelot was destroyed. That building would of been good for this purpose.
I dont think it would have been good for this purpose at all. It would have cost vastly more to have refurbished that building and to have turned the rooms into apartments. There may have been a few rooms large enough but then you would have had to have combined most of the rest of the rooms into apartments, then added a kitchen in each of the apartments and that alone would have taken a lot of work and money. Plus, I dont know if you want it to be that large and have that many residents in one spot.
This isnt just a room or a place to stay like a hotel room, its supposed to be a real home.
Have any of you even looked up what "Housing First" programs are all about? I keep hearing comments that suggest otherwise.
and now back to the council exempting other buildings downtown but not the Y, why?
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
PAYBACK TIME..............
[B)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
PAYBACK TIME..............
[B)]
Somewhere Maria Barnes and Roscoe Turner are snickering to themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
PAYBACK TIME..............
[B)]
Somewhere Maria Barnes and Roscoe Turner are snickering to themselves.
If the Recall is successful, the remaining City Councilors APPOINT a replacement to fill the remaining term of those Recalled Councilors.
Presumably, the City Council could re-appoint Gomez and Patrick into their old positions. But, that would have a LARGE political cost to the individuals so voting.
Now, is everyone starting to get the picture WHY the local ruling power Oligarchy worked so hard to get rid of Mautino, Medlock, Roop, Turner and Henderson?
Four out of five are gone in only four years. Only one is still left standing: Henderson. And Kaiser Kronies funded well his opponent in last Spring's City Kouncil election.
A solitary voice crying in the City Council Wilderness remains. Occasionally joined by John Eagleton when he's not too busy carrying the water for the Mayor.
Rubber-stamp replacements now hold the Gang of Five's former City Council positions.
Does ANYONE in District 3 still think that David Patrick shows more concern for his constituents that did former Councilor Roscoe Turner?
Or that District 4 councilor Eric Gomez is more concerned about his constituents than his predecessor Maria Barnes?
People, THINK Before You Vote, and ALWAYS Follow The Money!
The recall effort will be less successful than the last one. That one actually made it to a vote and wasted time and money. This one will just waste time and money.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
and now back to the council exempting other buildings downtown but not the Y, why?
Those other buildings were established residential. Some changes were made to them to make them safer. PM's posted previously this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
PAYBACK TIME..............
[B)]
Somewhere Maria Barnes and Roscoe Turner are snickering to themselves.
If the Recall is successful, the remaining City Councilors APPOINT a replacement to fill the remaining term of those Recalled Councilors.
Presumably, the City Council could re-appoint Gomez and Patrick into their old positions. But, that would have a LARGE political cost to the individuals so voting.
Now, is everyone starting to get the picture WHY the local ruling power Oligarchy worked so hard to get rid of Mautino, Medlock, Turner and Henderson?
Only one is still left standing. A solitary voice crying in the City Council Wilderness. Occasionally joined by John Eagleton when he's not carrying the water for the Mayor.
Rubber-stamp replacements now hold their former City Council positions.
Does ANYONE in District 3 still think that David Patrick shows more concern for his constituents that did former Councilor Roscoe Turner?
Or that District 4 councilor Eric Gomez is more concerned about his constituents than his predecessor Maria Barnes?
People, THINK Before You Vote, and ALWAYS Follow The Money!
Youre the guy who yells fire in a crowded theatre and then revels over the chaos. You're the guy who loves to yell at the ump even though your team is way ahead. Off with their heads! Throw the bums out! No new taxes! Just vote No!
As long as the villagers are fighting among themselves over the outrageous deeds of the ruling class, nothing will happen and that is exactly what you want.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
PAYBACK TIME..............
[B)]
Somewhere Maria Barnes and Roscoe Turner are snickering to themselves.
Except Maria voted for this during the original joint Council/Housing Authority public hearing and she has her own Kaiser conflicts of interest/connections (//%22http://www.batesline.com/archives/2008/02/city-council-contribution-report.html%22).
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I told you all the neighbors are pissed.
They have started recall petitions against two of the councilors.
PAYBACK TIME..............
[B)]
Somewhere Maria Barnes and Roscoe Turner are snickering to themselves.
If the Recall is successful, the remaining City Councilors APPOINT a replacement to fill the remaining term of those Recalled Councilors.
Presumably, the City Council could re-appoint Gomez and Patrick into their old positions. But, that would have a LARGE political cost to the individuals so voting.
Now, is everyone starting to get the picture WHY the local ruling power Oligarchy worked so hard to get rid of Mautino, Medlock, Turner and Henderson?
Only one is still left standing. A solitary voice crying in the City Council Wilderness. Occasionally joined by John Eagleton when he's not carrying the water for the Mayor.
Rubber-stamp replacements now hold their former City Council positions.
Does ANYONE in District 3 still think that David Patrick shows more concern for his constituents that did former Councilor Roscoe Turner?
Or that District 4 councilor Eric Gomez is more concerned about his constituents than his predecessor Maria Barnes?
People, THINK Before You Vote, and ALWAYS Follow The Money!
Youre the guy who yells fire in a crowded theatre and then revels over the chaos. You're the guy who loves to yell at the ump even though your team is way ahead. Off with their heads! Throw the bums out! No new taxes! Just vote No!
As long as the villagers are fighting among themselves over the outrageous deeds of the ruling class, nothing will happen and that is exactly what you want.
So, all this bickering is somehow MY fault?
It wasn't ME that brought up Recall.
I merely commented on RecycleMichael's brief Recall thread.
You can rest assured that the local Power establishment has two replacement
Faux-Reformers waiting in reserve, just in case Gomez or Patrick do in fact get successfully recalled.
Gomez and Patrick can thank Ruth Kaiser Nelson for maneuvering them into a position in their effected districts where she hands them their heads on a platter.
Right now their heads are spinning off like a fully-baked dreidel on overdrive.
This incident won't even be a pimple of a pesky Speed Bump in the Oligarchy's steam-roller control of our local city Goobermint for the past 50 years.
[:(!]
Who are the bad guys here?
Ruth Kaiser Nelson wants to give millions of her own dollars to help solve a community problem.
THA and MHA want to build facilities all over town so they can get rid of the concentration of working poor people living downtown in a building without sprinklers.
The Fire Marshall wants all buildings where people live to be safe.
Councilor Gomez has a similar facility ,albeit smaller, near his home and has seen no problems. He voted to receive additional funding from the state.
Councilor Patrick wasn't even at the meeting where the residents spoke, but did vote along with Councilor Gomez the week before to receive the few million in matching funds from the state.
The neighborhood leaders found out about the proposed development from a TV station and quickly organized people to come down to the meeting and speak out.
At this point, everyone did what they should have done.
The problem is that up until the second council meeting, people were not talking to each other, probably out of fear. The THA lady admitted to as much in today's paper.
I don't know if Councilor Gomez or Patrick knew all about everything and should have discussed this with their constituants, but it sounds like that is what has pissed people off the most.
If only the media had picked up on this earlier...if only the THA had really tried to talk to the neighborhood leaders...if only the councilors would have met in advance with the neighborhood and involved them in the planning of this facility...if only, if only, if only.
Communication could have soothed all these hard feelings. Respectful communication is a good thing.
"TulsaNow, facilitating communication for a better Tulsa".
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Who are the bad guys here?
Ruth Kaiser Nelson wants to give millions of her own dollars to help solve a community problem.
THA and MHA want to build facilities all over town so they can get rid of the concentration of working poor people living downtown in a building without sprinklers.
The Fire Marshall wants all buildings where people live to be safe.
Councilor Gomez has a similar facility ,albeit smaller, near his home and has seen no problems. He voted to receive additional funding from the state.
Councilor Patrick wasn't even at the meeting where the residents spoke, but did vote along with Councilor Gomez the week before to receive the few million in matching funds from the state.
The neighborhood leaders found out about the proposed development from a TV station and quickly organized people to come down to the meeting and speak out.
At this point, everyone did what they should have done.
The problem is that up until the second council meeting, people were not talking to each other, probably out of fear. The THA lady admitted to as much in today's paper.
I don't know if Councilor Gomez or Patrick knew all about everything and should have discussed this with their constituants, but it sounds like that is what has pissed people off the most.
If only the media had picked up on this earlier...if only the THA had really tried to talk to the neighborhood leaders...if only the councilors would have met in advance with the neighborhood and involved them in the planning of this facility...if only, if only, if only.
Communication could have soothed all these hard feelings. Respectful communication is a good thing.
"TulsaNow, facilitating communication for a better Tulsa".
Good analysis, RecycleMichael. Totally out of character for you, however.
How about directing some of that "Respectful communication" towards Friendly Bear, sometime?
First notice on this Forum was RecycleMichael's real-time Aug. 7 comment about the City Council Meeting discussing the THA proposal, and the audience's raucous response.
Regardless of their underlying presumably Pure-as-Virgin-Snow Motives, the local ruling power establishment and their appointed Kaiser Kouncil Kronies, and City of Kaiser Housing Authority Kronies tried to SNEAK this by everyone.
Caught ya!
Here's a FRESH Idea:
To cheer up the the Kaisers after SemGroup ripped the throat out of their bank (Bank Of Kaiser) earnings this quarter, let's rename Tulsa County:
Kaiser Kounty.
Has a nice sort of ring to it, doesn't it.
While we're at it, let's rename the city after the Kaisers.....They do sooooo much for us.
Call it:
Kaiserslauten.
K-Town for short. Sort of reminds us of old T-Town.
K-Town.
I LIKE it.
IT's the least we can do.
And, since they so heavily promoted the Kaiser River Tax last October, let's go ahead and just rename the Arkansas River, too?
Yes, you guessed it:
The Kaiser River.
[:o)]
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Who are the bad guys here?
Ruth Kaiser Nelson wants to give millions of her own dollars to help solve a community problem.
THA and MHA want to build facilities all over town so they can get rid of the concentration of working poor people living downtown in a building without sprinklers.
The Fire Marshall wants all buildings where people live to be safe.
Councilor Gomez has a similar facility ,albeit smaller, near his home and has seen no problems. He voted to receive additional funding from the state.
Councilor Patrick wasn't even at the meeting where the residents spoke, but did vote along with Councilor Gomez the week before to receive the few million in matching funds from the state.
The neighborhood leaders found out about the proposed development from a TV station and quickly organized people to come down to the meeting and speak out.
At this point, everyone did what they should have done.
The problem is that up until the second council meeting, people were not talking to each other, probably out of fear. The THA lady admitted to as much in today's paper.
I don't know if Councilor Gomez or Patrick knew all about everything and should have discussed this with their constituants, but it sounds like that is what has pissed people off the most.
If only the media had picked up on this earlier...if only the THA had really tried to talk to the neighborhood leaders...if only the councilors would have met in advance with the neighborhood and involved them in the planning of this facility...if only, if only, if only.
Communication could have soothed all these hard feelings. Respectful communication is a good thing.
"TulsaNow, facilitating communication for a better Tulsa".
This is about the ethical transgressions of these men who are charter members of the Mare Force One Mile High Club, whose ethical lapses on lier jets with lobbyists are to blame for the situation they find themselves in today. If they had been respectful of the public trust, conducted themselves in an open, transparent, ethical way and communicated with their constituents they might have avoided what is the result of their own misconduct. They have disrespected the public and the public demands satisfaction for this dishonor. I will sign the D4 recall petition.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Who are the bad guys here?
Ruth Kaiser Nelson wants to give millions of her own dollars to help solve a community problem.
THA and MHA want to build facilities all over town so they can get rid of the concentration of working poor people living downtown in a building without sprinklers.
The Fire Marshall wants all buildings where people live to be safe.
Councilor Gomez has a similar facility ,albeit smaller, near his home and has seen no problems. He voted to receive additional funding from the state.
Councilor Patrick wasn't even at the meeting where the residents spoke, but did vote along with Councilor Gomez the week before to receive the few million in matching funds from the state.
The neighborhood leaders found out about the proposed development from a TV station and quickly organized people to come down to the meeting and speak out.
At this point, everyone did what they should have done.
The problem is that up until the second council meeting, people were not talking to each other, probably out of fear. The THA lady admitted to as much in today's paper.
I don't know if Councilor Gomez or Patrick knew all about everything and should have discussed this with their constituants, but it sounds like that is what has pissed people off the most.
If only the media had picked up on this earlier...if only the THA had really tried to talk to the neighborhood leaders...if only the councilors would have met in advance with the neighborhood and involved them in the planning of this facility...if only, if only, if only.
Communication could have soothed all these hard feelings. Respectful communication is a good thing.
"TulsaNow, facilitating communication for a better Tulsa".
This is about the ethical ethical trangressions of these men who are members of the Mare Force One Mile High Club whose ethical lapses on lier jets with lobbyists are to blame for in the situation they find themselves in today. If they had been respectful of the public trust, conducted themselves in an open, transparent, ethical way and communicated with their constituents they might have avoided what is the result of their own misconduct. They have disrespected the public and the public demands satisfaction for this dishonor. I will sign the D4 recall petition.
I'd sign it too, but I don't live in District 3 or 4.
Here's a plan:
Can I sign Sam Roop's name to the District 4 Recall Petition?
Sure he won't mind.
These last few posts diminish the credibility of this forum. It is a constant diatribe with name calling, accusations, and conspiracy theories from these two. I would suggest they go back to TulsaToday and sell that stuff over there. Oh, yeah, they can't. They discontinued that forum due to such posting.[;)]
Who wants to serve in politics with these attitudes constantly serving to berate them? Who wants to donate money to such ungrateful vicious people? Truly, does no good deed go unpunished?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
These last few posts diminish the credibility of this forum. It is a constant diatribe with name calling, accusations, and conspiracy theories from these two. I would suggest they go back to TulsaToday and sell that stuff over there. Oh, yeah, they can't. They discontinued that forum due to such posting.[;)]
Who wants to serve in politics with these attitudes constantly serving to berate them? Who wants to donate money to such ungrateful vicious people? Truly, does no good deed go unpunished?
Then I come across your post and wonder of the waste of time I just spent reading something that is so superior [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
These last few posts diminish the credibility of this forum. It is a constant diatribe with name calling, accusations, and conspiracy theories from these two. I would suggest they go back to TulsaToday and sell that stuff over there. Oh, yeah, they can't. They discontinued that forum due to such posting.[;)]
Who wants to serve in politics with these attitudes constantly serving to berate them? Who wants to donate money to such ungrateful vicious people? Truly, does no good deed go unpunished?
well listen dude, Patrick didn't EVEN SHOW UP the night this was discussed. He thought everything "was ok". And I didn't see any jets flying to his dirt farm to pick him up so I guess everything "was ok" as far as his taskmasters were concerned.
He deserves to be recalled. And Gomerz actions have not even come CLOSE to matching his campaign promises. The way he sits there all smug at the meetings makes me want to puke. I hope they are both put out to pasture.
I don't like either one of them. I voted for Barnes and even though I criticized Roscoe, I liked him. Call them to task. But come on. Is everything related to the T-Town Oligarchy, the Bananna Republic of Tulsa, Da Mare's cronyism, blah, blah, blah? These two never let up.
If we just keep electing bumpkins then tearing away at them with recalls, lawsuits, name calling and smears will we ever get anything done around here? Isn't that what FB and his buddies want?
Is it possible that people just disagree and are not part of a conspiracy to carry water for the mayor and Kaisers minions? And what kind of class warfare criticizes a part time councilor for working in a garage and still representing his district. If he was practicing law like others would that be okay?
Geez.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I don't like either one of them. I voted for Barnes and even though I criticized Roscoe, I liked him. Call them to task. But come on. Is everything related to the T-Town Oligarchy, the Bananna Republic of Tulsa, Da Mare's cronyism, blah, blah, blah? These two never let up.
If we just keep electing bumpkins then tearing away at them with recalls, lawsuits, name calling and smears will we ever get anything done around here? Isn't that what FB and his buddies want?
Is it possible that people just disagree and are not part of a conspiracy to carry water for the mayor and Kaisers minions? And what kind of class warfare criticizes a part time councilor for working in a garage and still representing his district. If he was practicing law like others would that be okay?
Geez.
The local ruling Power Oligarchy wants to control at least six of nine city councilors, and also the Office of the Mayor.
They briefly lost that control back in 2004, with the election of the Gang of Five.
And, brother, did they ever HOWL!
Methinks they doth protest Too Much!
It's about control of the local levers of power, which gives them control of the funding Honey Pots: TAIT, TMUA, TDA, THA, etc.
They use their Money to get Power. And, Power to build on their already ample Fortunes.
Simple, really.
A power/money paradign first elucidated in "The Prince" by Oligarchia Familia advisor, Nicolo Machiavelli.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I don't like either one of them. I voted for Barnes and even though I criticized Roscoe, I liked him. Call them to task. But come on. Is everything related to the T-Town Oligarchy, the Bananna Republic of Tulsa, Da Mare's cronyism, blah, blah, blah? These two never let up.
If we just keep electing bumpkins then tearing away at them with recalls, lawsuits, name calling and smears will we ever get anything done around here? Isn't that what FB and his buddies want?
Is it possible that people just disagree and are not part of a conspiracy to carry water for the mayor and Kaisers minions? And what kind of class warfare criticizes a part time councilor for working in a garage and still representing his district. If he was practicing law like others would that be okay?
Geez.
if you let a council full of gomez types run tulsa then you might as well just raze all the neighborhoods and fill the town with zone code busting italiante dreck and forget honoring any kind of civic contracts like a Comp Plan.
as far as the council was concerned....the "gang of five" years were some of the best. You had bipartisan cooperation for one of the first times ever. The PEOPLE'S business was actually carried out, not the bidding of a few turds in the Williams Ivory Tower.
Guess I'm different than most folks on this.
I'm glad to see them get the homeless finally out of our downtown area. But I'm more glad to see proper housing being built for the homeless and those that suffer from mental illness, like so many of them do.
I'm not much of a Mayor Kathy fan but I like what she has done with this situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I don't like either one of them. I voted for Barnes and even though I criticized Roscoe, I liked him. Call them to task. But come on. Is everything related to the T-Town Oligarchy, the Bananna Republic of Tulsa, Da Mare's cronyism, blah, blah, blah? These two never let up.
If we just keep electing bumpkins then tearing away at them with recalls, lawsuits, name calling and smears will we ever get anything done around here? Isn't that what FB and his buddies want?
Is it possible that people just disagree and are not part of a conspiracy to carry water for the mayor and Kaisers minions? And what kind of class warfare criticizes a part time councilor for working in a garage and still representing his district. If he was practicing law like others would that be okay?
Geez.
The local ruling Power Oligarchy wants to control at least six of nine city councilors, and also the Office of the Mayor.
They briefly lost that control back in 2004, with the election of the Gang of Five.
And, brother, did they ever HOWL!
It's about control of the local levers of power, which gives them control of the funding Honey Pots: TAIT, TMUA, TDA, THA, etc.
They use their Money to get Power. And, Power to protect their Money.
Simple, really.
So simple it plum evades me.
Just saying this stuff over and over doesn't make it true. I'll make this assertion though. Take off all the members of these boards and authorities that you think are members of the oligarchy or toadies for them and replace them with your hand picked toadies. Within a year they'll resemble the old boards and authorities. We'll have a new person espousing stories of a new oligarchy.
Your personality is same as the current administration. Never give an opponent an even break. Reward your supporters and punish dissenters (enemies). Don't let logic or the law get in the way.
Its very simple really.
Friendly Bear... You need to run for Mayor or City Council.
While you are weighing your options.... Please get back on your meds and try to make your Doctor appointments.
[;)]
Bottom line is , this project will win awards and produce more wall hanging material with their names on it. Thats all that really matters. Got to keep getting those back pats[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I don't like either one of them. I voted for Barnes and even though I criticized Roscoe, I liked him. Call them to task. But come on. Is everything related to the T-Town Oligarchy, the Bananna Republic of Tulsa, Da Mare's cronyism, blah, blah, blah? These two never let up.
If we just keep electing bumpkins then tearing away at them with recalls, lawsuits, name calling and smears will we ever get anything done around here? Isn't that what FB and his buddies want?
Is it possible that people just disagree and are not part of a conspiracy to carry water for the mayor and Kaisers minions? And what kind of class warfare criticizes a part time councilor for working in a garage and still representing his district. If he was practicing law like others would that be okay?
Geez.
The local ruling Power Oligarchy wants to control at least six of nine city councilors, and also the Office of the Mayor.
They briefly lost that control back in 2004, with the election of the Gang of Five.
And, brother, did they ever HOWL!
It's about control of the local levers of power, which gives them control of the funding Honey Pots: TAIT, TMUA, TDA, THA, etc.
They use their Money to get Power. And, Power to protect their Money.
Simple, really.
So simple it plum evades me.
Just saying this stuff over and over doesn't make it true. I'll make this assertion though. Take off all the members of these boards and authorities that you think are members of the oligarchy or toadies for them and replace them with your hand picked toadies. Within a year they'll resemble the old boards and authorities. We'll have a new person espousing stories of a new oligarchy.
Your personality is same as the current administration. Never give an opponent an even break. Reward your supporters and punish dissenters (enemies). Don't let logic or the law get in the way.
Its very simple really.
The LAW? There is NO law in a Banana Republic.
The law is what a crony judge of the local ruling power elite SAYS is the law.
I refer you to the Poster Boy of Judicial Cronyism:
Dear Judge Jane Wiseman.
Promoted from Tulsa District Judge to Oklahoma State Court of Appeals as a reward for her FIVE minutes of deliberation on the Log-Rolled Vision 2025 ballot lawsuit, filed by Gary Richardson on behalf of former city councilor and
personna non grata Todd Houston.
And, I'd be happy to vote for a real Reformer on Tulsa City Council, whether Democrat or Republican.
However, we're unlikely to ever again see a majority of the city council comprised of Reformers.
TOO dangerous for the local ruling Power Oligarchy.
Too many skeletons buried in the various city boards, authorities, and commissions.
Too many sweet-heart deals with a certain two local banks, and their sole-sourced municipal bond underwriting deals.
Too many sweet-heart deals with the favored local construction company cabal, their connected sub-contractor cronies, and their sole-sourced construction projects. With their allied legions of certain connected attorneys, architects, engineers, and PR personnel.
Reform?
Not very likely.
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Friendly Bear... You need to run for Mayor or City Council.
While you are weighing your options.... Please get back on your meds and try to make your Doctor appointments.
[;)]
I really appreciate your show of support.
What kind of meds do you recommend for me?
How about: Viagra.
Bend over?
You know Bear, its not that I or others around here don't know that there is some truth to your rantings. Its that you do nothing but talk, talk, talk. Do something rather than just continuuing to denigrate our local structure!
If you could get elected or appointed to a meaningful slot in the structure and start to effect change instead of complain about the status quo, I for one would follow along regardless of your party affiliation. Same goes for AA. Easy to make fun and criticize but harder to actually do something.
But something tells me you've tried that and were rebuffed and now you feel obligated to educate and warn the rest of us. Instead you end up floundering in the surf yelling about how dangerous water is.
For me your low point was to call Eagleton the Water Carrier for the Mayor (at least you didn't call him the waterboy). He is anything but that, he simply had a different perspective than you and made a different decision. He is the outside of the box councilor you should be defending.
I read about how the city of Tulsa basically stole the water rights of Spavinaw from the tribe that owned them. When city leaders came across resistance they went to the state and used the system to validate/justify their theft. Indians usually lost back then (no casinos to fund good representation). That was over 80 years ago. Now we are in the process of further limiting adjacent landowners rights on Spavinaw Creek to protect our water quality and once again there is resistance. We will win this one too. My point is that you may have misjudged just what our republic is and has been for a long time. And its like this at all levels all over the country. Do something about it. Write a book, make a movie, run for office...something.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Friendly Bear... You need to run for Mayor or City Council.
While you are weighing your options.... Please get back on your meds and try to make your Doctor appointments.
[;)]
I really appreciate your show of support.
What kind of meds do you recommend for me?
How about: Viagra.
Bend over?
Now Bear.... Some of your latent Freudian tendencies are peeking through...
You remember changing your name from Uranus to Friendly Bear... That was a positive step.
I am not familiar with your med list.. I imagine something for
High Anxiety...
By the way I was serious that you should run for office..
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
You know Bear, its not that I or others around here don't know that there is some truth to your rantings. Its that you do nothing but talk, talk, talk. Do something rather than just continuuing to denigrate our local structure!
If you could get elected or appointed to a meaningful slot in the structure and start to effect change instead of complain about the status quo, I for one would follow along regardless of your party affiliation. Same goes for AA. Easy to make fun and criticize but harder to actually do something.
But something tells me you've tried that and were rebuffed and now you feel obligated to educate and warn the rest of us. Instead you end up floundering in the surf yelling about how dangerous water is.
For me your low point was to call Eagleton the Water Carrier for the Mayor (at least you didn't call him the waterboy). He is anything but that, he simply had a different perspective than you and made a different decision. He is the outside of the box councilor you should be defending.
I read about how the city of Tulsa basically stole the water rights of Spavinaw from the tribe that owned them. When city leaders came across resistance they went to the state and used the system to validate/justify their theft. Indians usually lost back then (no casinos to fund good representation). That was over 80 years ago. Now we are in the process of further limiting adjacent landowners rights on Spavinaw Creek to protect our water quality and once again there is resistance. We will win this one too. My point is that you may have misjudged just what our republic is and has been for a long time. And its like this at all levels all over the country. Do something about it. Write a book, make a movie, run for office...something.
Hint:
How do you KNOW that I'm not already holding local elective office, or sitting on one of our many facile Boards, Authorities, or Commissions?
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Friendly Bear... You need to run for Mayor or City Council.
While you are weighing your options.... Please get back on your meds and try to make your Doctor appointments.
[;)]
I really appreciate your show of support.
What kind of meds do you recommend for me?
How about: Viagra.
Bend over?
Now Bear.... Some of your latent Freudian tendencies are peeking through...
You remember changing your name from Uranus to Friendly Bear... That was a positive step.
I am not familiar with your med list.. I imagine something for High Anxiety...
By the way I was serious that you should run for office..
[}:)]
We talking Uranus.
Not mine.
[;)]
And, like I told Waterboy, how do you KNOW I don't already hold elective office?
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Friendly Bear... You need to run for Mayor or City Council.
While you are weighing your options.... Please get back on your meds and try to make your Doctor appointments.
[;)]
I really appreciate your show of support.
What kind of meds do you recommend for me?
How about: Viagra.
Bend over?
Now Bear.... Some of your latent Freudian tendencies are peeking through...
You remember changing your name from Uranus to Friendly Bear... That was a positive step.
I am not familiar with your med list.. I imagine something for High Anxiety...
By the way I was serious that you should run for office..
[}:)]
We talking Uranus.
Not mine.
[;)]
And, like I told Waterboy, hold do you KNOW I don't already hold elective office?
Roscoe, is that you?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_19980820/ai_n10122004
These replaced the old Osage Hills Apartments which were the old style low income housing.
These units are fairly decent, and look much better than the old Osage Hills Brick Box flat roof units they replaced.
Set next to the Golf Course, the view from the patio rivals residental units costing tens of thousands more in other locations.
http://www.tempe.gov/arts/exhibitions/files/Vihel/Housing/osage.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
You know Bear, its not that I or others around here don't know that there is some truth to your rantings. Its that you do nothing but talk, talk, talk. Do something rather than just continuuing to denigrate our local structure!
If you could get elected or appointed to a meaningful slot in the structure and start to effect change instead of complain about the status quo, I for one would follow along regardless of your party affiliation. Same goes for AA. Easy to make fun and criticize but harder to actually do something.
But something tells me you've tried that and were rebuffed and now you feel obligated to educate and warn the rest of us. Instead you end up floundering in the surf yelling about how dangerous water is.
For me your low point was to call Eagleton the Water Carrier for the Mayor (at least you didn't call him the waterboy). He is anything but that, he simply had a different perspective than you and made a different decision. He is the outside of the box councilor you should be defending.
I read about how the city of Tulsa basically stole the water rights of Spavinaw from the tribe that owned them. When city leaders came across resistance they went to the state and used the system to validate/justify their theft. Indians usually lost back then (no casinos to fund good representation). That was over 80 years ago. Now we are in the process of further limiting adjacent landowners rights on Spavinaw Creek to protect our water quality and once again there is resistance. We will win this one too. My point is that you may have misjudged just what our republic is and has been for a long time. And its like this at all levels all over the country. Do something about it. Write a book, make a movie, run for office...something.
Hint:
How do you KNOW that I'm not already holding local elective office, or sitting on one of our many facile Boards, Authorities, or Commissions?
I don't. I can only surmise. However, I think you may have held an elected position in the past and are too smart to divulge that info. Or you are closely allied with current or former office holders and know where the bones are buried.
If you were sitting on one of these unelected entities and weren't raising hell over their conflicts, elitism and incompetence then you are no better than them.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Friendly Bear... You need to run for Mayor or City Council.
While you are weighing your options.... Please get back on your meds and try to make your Doctor appointments.
[;)]
I really appreciate your show of support.
What kind of meds do you recommend for me?
How about: Viagra.
Bend over?
Now Bear.... Some of your latent Freudian tendencies are peeking through...
You remember changing your name from Uranus to Friendly Bear... That was a positive step.
I am not familiar with your med list.. I imagine something for High Anxiety...
By the way I was serious that you should run for office..
[}:)]
We talking Uranus.
Not mine.
[;)]
And, like I told Waterboy, hold do you KNOW I don't already hold elective office?
Roscoe, is that you?
Daddy??
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
You know Bear, its not that I or others around here don't know that there is some truth to your rantings. Its that you do nothing but talk, talk, talk. Do something rather than just continuuing to denigrate our local structure!
If you could get elected or appointed to a meaningful slot in the structure and start to effect change instead of complain about the status quo, I for one would follow along regardless of your party affiliation. Same goes for AA. Easy to make fun and criticize but harder to actually do something.
But something tells me you've tried that and were rebuffed and now you feel obligated to educate and warn the rest of us. Instead you end up floundering in the surf yelling about how dangerous water is.
For me your low point was to call Eagleton the Water Carrier for the Mayor (at least you didn't call him the waterboy). He is anything but that, he simply had a different perspective than you and made a different decision. He is the outside of the box councilor you should be defending.
I read about how the city of Tulsa basically stole the water rights of Spavinaw from the tribe that owned them. When city leaders came across resistance they went to the state and used the system to validate/justify their theft. Indians usually lost back then (no casinos to fund good representation). That was over 80 years ago. Now we are in the process of further limiting adjacent landowners rights on Spavinaw Creek to protect our water quality and once again there is resistance. We will win this one too. My point is that you may have misjudged just what our republic is and has been for a long time. And its like this at all levels all over the country. Do something about it. Write a book, make a movie, run for office...something.
Hint:
How do you KNOW that I'm not already holding local elective office, or sitting on one of our many facile Boards, Authorities, or Commissions?
I don't. I can only surmise. However, I think you may have held an elected position in the past and are too smart to divulge that info. Or you are closely allied with current or former office holders and know where the bones are buried.
If you were sitting on one of these unelected entities and weren't raising hell over their conflicts, elitism and incompetence then you are no better than them.
Someone of the calibre of an outsider like Michael Bates would be well-suited to an important local board or authority, such as TAIT, River Parks, TMUA, THA, TMAPC, BOA, etc.
However, I think the likelihood of a reformer of his calibre actually being appointed is about as likely as an Auschwitz survivor shouting "Heil Hitler".
Nil.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I don't like either one of them. I voted for Barnes and even though I criticized Roscoe, I liked him. Call them to task. But come on. Is everything related to the T-Town Oligarchy, the Bananna Republic of Tulsa, Da Mare's cronyism, blah, blah, blah? These two never let up.
If we just keep electing bumpkins then tearing away at them with recalls, lawsuits, name calling and smears will we ever get anything done around here? Isn't that what FB and his buddies want?
Is it possible that people just disagree and are not part of a conspiracy to carry water for the mayor and Kaisers minions? And what kind of class warfare criticizes a part time councilor for working in a garage and still representing his district. If he was practicing law like others would that be okay?
Geez.
The local ruling Power Oligarchy wants to control at least six of nine city councilors, and also the Office of the Mayor.
They briefly lost that control back in 2004, with the election of the Gang of Five.
And, brother, did they ever HOWL!
It's about control of the local levers of power, which gives them control of the funding Honey Pots: TAIT, TMUA, TDA, THA, etc.
They use their Money to get Power. And, Power to protect their Money.
Simple, really.
So simple it plum evades me.
Just saying this stuff over and over doesn't make it true. I'll make this assertion though. Take off all the members of these boards and authorities that you think are members of the oligarchy or toadies for them and replace them with your hand picked toadies. Within a year they'll resemble the old boards and authorities. We'll have a new person espousing stories of a new oligarchy.
Your personality is same as the current administration. Never give an opponent an even break. Reward your supporters and punish dissenters (enemies). Don't let logic or the law get in the way.
Its very simple really.
The LAW? There is NO law in a Banana Republic.
The law is what a crony judge of the local ruling power elite SAYS is the law.
I refer you to the Poster Boy of Judicial Cronyism:
Dear Judge Jane Wiseman.
Promoted from Tulsa District Judge to Oklahoma State Court of Appeals as a reward for her FIVE minutes of deliberation on the Log-Rolled Vision 2025 ballot lawsuit, filed by Gary Richardson on behalf of former city councilor and personna non grata Todd Houston.
And, I'd be happy to vote for a real Reformer on Tulsa City Council, whether Democrat or Republican.
However, we're unlikely to ever again see a majority of the city council comprised of Reformers.
TOO dangerous for the local ruling Power Oligarchy.
Too many skeletons buried in the various city boards, authorities, and commissions.
Too many sweet-heart deals with a certain two local banks, and their sole-sourced municipal bond underwriting deals.
Too many sweet-heart deals with the favored local construction company cabal, their connected sub-contractor cronies, and their sole-sourced construction projects. With their allied legions of certain connected attorneys, architects, engineers, and PR personnel.
Reform?
Not very likely.
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
[:O]
You've been humiliated on the Wiseman issue before.
Why bring it up?
Do you cry at night thinking about the fact you are a clueless fool?
Wiseman is one of the best judges you could ever have. Everyone I know in the legal community respects her.
You have no clue what you are talking about.
But, please, keep making stuff up.
Who needs facts and honest discussion when you have Friendly Bear?
[}:)]
A little CYA just hit the news:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080814_296_Anew571050
Back on the topic . . .
I live west of 18th and Boulder, or so. We have some sort of subsdized/ transient housing around the corner in a really terrible building that needs to be torn down. There are also another couple of similar housing situations described in a recent blog by Wayne Green, http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/blogs/weblog.aspx?column_id=30#2881.
Despite the fact we have some low income families and an occaisional panhandler or transient, the value of real estate in that neighborhood keeps going up. My home is worth 33% more than when I bought it nine years ago. There are million dollar homes in the area (I saw the closing amount on one recently). The neighborhood has maintained all of its charm.
The blowhard/tinfoil hat crowd is really blowing this out of proportion.
Its called diversity. The people against this project seem to be projecting some thinly veiled bias or prejudice against their fellow humans.
People are just afraid of what they know little about, plain and simple.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
Its called diversity. The people against this project seem to be projecting some thinly veiled bias or prejudice against their fellow humans.
Interesting point. How someone at Admiral and Yale gets their panties in a wad over diversity is beyond me. That's one of the most diverse parts of the city. If anyone has doubts, visit Rogers High School any day of the week.
It's not like their moving tent city to the neighborhood.
Beyond that, the Y needs to go. If we keep people living there, we subject them to the risk of a terrible fire. Just a thought that seems to get lost in this discussion.
I was a Roper!
That's such a beautiful building. I DVR'd Rumblefish the other night -- hadn't seen it in awhile. Forgot that they walk through the front of the school in it.
Like a lot of things that get blown out of proportion in Tulsa, I think the neighbors are taking issue with the law itself, not the interpretation of it. As far as I can tell, appropriate notice was given and the project is legal. The web site that sprung up really says a lot about the motives of the noisemakers on this one.
Call the group who initiated the project arrogant if you want, I call it leadership.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I was a Roper!
Me too.
Class of 1976
quote:
Originally posted by tshane250
People are just afraid of what they know little about, plain and simple.
Tshane, good point.
What is it they say? "A lack of education leads to ignorance"? Ignorance leads to ignorant comments from the looks of things.
But some of the comments I've read here and elsewhere does border on sheer ignorant prejudice of mental health issues and the people they affect.
I don't mention it much for no other reason than it's seldom relevant in my daily conversation, but I've got a relative who lives in a group home environment in Bethany (OKC). It's a converted Howard Johnson's motel and it houses people with mental illness, some veterans, and people with substance abuse issues on their way back up from bottom.
Honestly, it's not unlike a partial cross-section of any neighborhood or apartment complex in the Tulsa area. Even the nicest areas have people with mental illness or who have suffered (or are still suffering) from substance abuse, near homelessness at some point or being destitute.
My relative is a vet and suffers from Schizophrenia. Most days he's pretty lucid, but he is not capable of holding down any sort of employment. He goes to the Vet center in OKC most days. He's harmless and probably one of my favorite extended family members. Most other people who live there are just as harmless and might go so far as to walk over to some of the fast food places in the area to eat, but generally, they stay out of the residential area a block away other than taking walks in the morning or afternoon.
Gold, you pretty much backed up my assertion of the "Beirut" looking building down at 18th & Boulder not affecting the neighborhood negatively.
The people around Admiral and Yale need to consider this a nice gift to the landscape. I seriously doubt they will even notice their new neighbors. This isn't like putting in a prison pre-release center, a sexual preditor lock-up, or a bunch of strip clubs. I really do fail to see how this will hurt property values.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Beyond that, the Y needs to go. If we keep people living there, we subject them to the risk of a terrible fire. Just a thought that seems to get lost in this discussion.
Install sprinklers, problem solved.
quote:
Originally posted by cks511
A little CYA just hit the news:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080814_296_Anew571050
It will be interesting to see if this will pass legal.....
If so... I think you can safely say it will allow people to vent and to come to grips with the situation...
Doubt anything would change.
Maybe the targeted councilors can put together a plan to reopen Hissom and bring back warehousing, electro-shock, and lobotomy...
Progress a plenty in the little town of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by cks511
A little CYA just hit the news:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080814_296_Anew571050
It will be interesting to see if this will pass legal.....
If so... I think you can safely say it will allow people to vent and to come to grips with the situation...
Doubt anything would change.
Maybe the targeted councilors can put together a plan to reopen Hissom and bring back warehousing, electro-shock, and lobotomy...
Progress a plenty in the little town of Tulsa.
Gomerz is a Goner. The grifter got caught in this game of graft, now he's up s*#t's creek without a paddle or a raft.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by cks511
A little CYA just hit the news:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080814_296_Anew571050
It will be interesting to see if this will pass legal.....
If so... I think you can safely say it will allow people to vent and to come to grips with the situation...
Doubt anything would change.
Maybe the targeted councilors can put together a plan to reopen Hissom and bring back warehousing, electro-shock, and lobotomy...
Progress a plenty in the little town of Tulsa.
Gomerz is a Goner. The grifter got caught in this game of graft, now he's up s*#t's creek without a paddle or a raft.
I really wish you would cinch up your nut-sack and run for D-4 councilor. You probably go to as many council meetings as they do anyway. I'd contribute to your campaign just to see someone stir the bucket for a couple of years on the council.
If this had been a four story, 76 unit apartment or condo complex at Admiral and Yale, it would have been applauded by the city and the neighborhoods.
It ain't the building, nor the location, it is the type of resident that everyone fears.
What is wrong with this picture?
Discrimination. Now if only they were African American, Muslim, Gay or some other "acceptable" socio-economic group.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I was a Roper!
I was too, are they still busing in blacks for the status look ?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
If this had been a four story, 76 unit apartment or condo complex at Admiral and Yale, it would have been applauded by the city and the neighborhoods.
It ain't the building, nor the location, it is the type of resident that everyone fears.
What is wrong with this picture?
Actually there is another hotel going in at 67th (?) and between Admiral and Archer , between Hibdon Tire and an auto parts store. The uproar but then again there is already many hotels and prostitutes anyway.
Remember the lady on TV pounding the podium and asking the THA board if they wanted this in their backyard.
Here is her website
http://wandawatsonband.com/
I think some should rethink what they call and label a blues singer. A successfull blues singer always comes from the heart and soul [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Beyond that, the Y needs to go. If we keep people living there, we subject them to the risk of a terrible fire. Just a thought that seems to get lost in this discussion.
Install sprinklers, problem solved.
Got the cash for that?
It's really expensive. Several buildings downtown have been hit with this problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Beyond that, the Y needs to go. If we keep people living there, we subject them to the risk of a terrible fire. Just a thought that seems to get lost in this discussion.
Install sprinklers, problem solved.
Got the cash for that?
It's really expensive. Several buildings downtown have been hit with this problem.
Who better to be in position to pay for it if they really cared for the occupants. Instead they have decided to keep the residents in a dangerous building longer, just so they can build an award winning building with their names on it [B)]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by tshane250
People are just afraid of what they know little about, plain and simple.
Tshane, good point.
What is it they say? "A lack of education leads to ignorance"? Ignorance leads to ignorant comments from the looks of things.
But some of the comments I've read here and elsewhere does border on sheer ignorant prejudice of mental health issues and the people they affect.
I don't mention it much for no other reason than it's seldom relevant in my daily conversation, but I've got a relative who lives in a group home environment in Bethany (OKC). It's a converted Howard Johnson's motel and it houses people with mental illness, some veterans, and people with substance abuse issues on their way back up from bottom.
Honestly, it's not unlike a partial cross-section of any neighborhood or apartment complex in the Tulsa area. Even the nicest areas have people with mental illness or who have suffered (or are still suffering) from substance abuse, near homelessness at some point or being destitute.
My relative is a vet and suffers from Schizophrenia. Most days he's pretty lucid, but he is not capable of holding down any sort of employment. He goes to the Vet center in OKC most days. He's harmless and probably one of my favorite extended family members. Most other people who live there are just as harmless and might go so far as to walk over to some of the fast food places in the area to eat, but generally, they stay out of the residential area a block away other than taking walks in the morning or afternoon.
Gold, you pretty much backed up my assertion of the "Beirut" looking building down at 18th & Boulder not affecting the neighborhood negatively.
The people around Admiral and Yale need to consider this a nice gift to the landscape. I seriously doubt they will even notice their new neighbors. This isn't like putting in a prison pre-release center, a sexual preditor lock-up, or a bunch of strip clubs. I really do fail to see how this will hurt property values.
"Beirut" is a pretty good name for that building. Made me smile -- you could also call the style "Eastern Bloc" or "gulag." It seriously looks like every bombed out looking building in slums stretching from Poland to Mongolia. I think I stayed in another of the architect's works in Ulan Bataar once.
Back to the topic -- ever notice how that building has virtually no parking? That was kind of an epiphany for me as to what it was intended to be.
I won't go so far as to say there is no negative impact. For the most part, those folks go about their lives and are just normal people. But there are some weirdos that show up -- there was a woman who would appear on 18th or Cheyenne for about nine months and flag your car down like it was an emergency. The emergency was that she needed bus fare. Someone finally wrote the World about her and she vanished shortly after.
I love the neighborhood and my wife will have to pry me away from it. But there are some poor people or mentally ill people walking by from time to time (but that's true a lot of places). I've had a guy show up waiving his id at the front door and asking for money while we were hosting a dinner party; I had a strange woman ring the door in the middle of the night once (I think it was a woman, I couldn't see her, which is why I just didn't open the door), and one time a homeless guy drew a smiley face with his finger on my car window (I saw him touching the car and ran out, only to see a smiley face). For nine years, that isn't so bad. Stranger things happen if you live along Peoria or Lewis, in my experience.
That neighborhood is about electic as Tulsa gets, with the Dresser and McFarlin mansions nearby, townhouses, apartments for different income levels, the University Club Tower, the Mansion House, the river, the Abundant Life building, subsidized housing, law offices, a gay bar, uppity restaurants and bars, not so uppity bars, a couple of salons, and a bank all in about a five minute walk. And despite all that cacophony, the price of the quality homes keeps going up. I think it's all about having attractive stuff nearby and maintaining your house.
Now, I will say that if I ever hit the Powerball, I will see that the Beirut building, the Abundant Life building, and the apartments northwest of the Riverside and Denver intersection all come down.
TV news reporter visited the YMCA downtown. Rooms they showed were 10 feet by 9 feet or 90 square feet. Tile floor, a door, single bed, a chair and a small desk. Said the new proposed units will be 3 times as large 240 square feet and have a shower & toilet, kitchen area. Based on the size stated, one would gather these are at the best efficiency rooms and not one bed room apartments.
Efficiency apartments of that nature are currently available downtown and in areas surrounding downtown in many areas from around $250-$300 per month with most bills paid. Many have a boiler with steam heat, and a single window AC unit. Cheap and easy cost effective housing. May not be a Ritz Carlton resort, but it provides shelter and most I have seen appear to be well kept. Many have strict rules regarding security of doors, noise during night hours, and guests, but so do most hotel/motels today.
The city is really missing the chance of bumping the numbers of people living downtown. Just think what the $14 million hotel would do for downtown. Heck, they could even build lofts for the homeless.
Does downtown really want residents downtown or just a certain kind of resident. Surely there is no discrimination going on here.
I just don't get it , the leaders themselves claim this hotel will enhance the neighborhood but it's funny how everything is about getting it downtown but this.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
The city is really missing the chance of bumping the numbers of people living downtown. Just think what the $14 million hotel would do for downtown. Heck, they could even build lofts for the homeless.
Does downtown really want residents downtown or just a certain kind of resident. Surely there is no discrimination going on here.
I just don't get it , the leaders themselves claim this hotel will enhance the neighborhood but it's funny how everything is about getting it downtown but this.
Is the issue perhaps that there is no viable space for such a facility? We had a thread on here not so long ago about how even some of the worst pieces of real estate (like the beat up houses on Elgin) have a hefty asking price because the owners have unrealistic (and maybe greeddy) demands.
True, you have the space where the YMCA may come down. But economics would seem to say that some entity with a profit motive will want that land.
So, you have to move them. And maybe they are better served on cheaper land -- because you only have so many charity dollars to throw around -- and with a nicer building.
Just a thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Beyond that, the Y needs to go. If we keep people living there, we subject them to the risk of a terrible fire. Just a thought that seems to get lost in this discussion.
Install sprinklers, problem solved.
Got the cash for that?
It's really expensive. Several buildings downtown have been hit with this problem.
It's much cheaper than a new building.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
The city is really missing the chance of bumping the numbers of people living downtown. Just think what the $14 million hotel would do for downtown. Heck, they could even build lofts for the homeless.
Does downtown really want residents downtown or just a certain kind of resident. Surely there is no discrimination going on here.
I just don't get it , the leaders themselves claim this hotel will enhance the neighborhood but it's funny how everything is about getting it downtown but this.
Is the issue perhaps that there is no viable space for such a facility? We had a thread on here not so long ago about how even some of the worst pieces of real estate (like the beat up houses on Elgin) have a hefty asking price because the owners have unrealistic (and maybe greeddy) demands.
True, you have the space where the YMCA may come down. But economics would seem to say that some entity with a profit motive will want that land.
So, you have to move them. And maybe they are better served on cheaper land -- because you only have so many charity dollars to throw around -- and with a nicer building.
Just a thought.
I'll look this weekend and hopefully TulsaNow didn't delet the post about the downtown library proposal. Seemed that one of the Zarrows or close in nature to them owned the land of the old Safeway on south Denver.Who ever it was, was willing to donate it if we voted to build a new main library there. Maybe it was a Schusterman can't remember that part.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
TV news reporter visited the YMCA downtown. Rooms they showed were 10 feet by 9 feet or 90 square feet. Tile floor, a door, single bed, a chair and a small desk. Said the new proposed units will be 3 times as large 240 square feet and have a shower & toilet, kitchen area. Based on the size stated, one would gather these are at the best efficiency rooms and not one bed room apartments.
Efficiency apartments of that nature are currently available downtown and in areas surrounding downtown in many areas from around $250-$300 per month with most bills paid. Many have a boiler with steam heat, and a single window AC unit. Cheap and easy cost effective housing. May not be a Ritz Carlton resort, but it provides shelter and most I have seen appear to be well kept. Many have strict rules regarding security of doors, noise during night hours, and guests, but so do most hotel/motels today.
Thats just what I thought. I figured if they were to turn the old Y into a "housing first" type facility it would basically have to be gutted. It would take about 3 rooms to make one apartment. Adding a kitchen and bath into each of those apartments would also require major renovations and expense to put throughout the building. Even if it were less expensive to buy that property, gut the building, and then redo it... you would still need places to put the people that are staying there while you are doing all of that. They can't stay in a gutted building.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Beyond that, the Y needs to go. If we keep people living there, we subject them to the risk of a terrible fire. Just a thought that seems to get lost in this discussion.
Install sprinklers, problem solved.
Got the cash for that?
It's really expensive. Several buildings downtown have been hit with this problem.
It's much cheaper than a new building.
Is it? Look at the fortune it's taking to totally re-do the Mayo. I'm not sure what market there is for potential buyers to purchase a former flop house with flop house facilities. Without the homeless, the building serves no economic function. The land the building is on is probably worth more than the building itself.
I'm pretty sure it's actually cheaper to build a new building out on Yale than to renovate and add sprinklers so people can stay there (this isn't the first time this issue has popped up in Tulsa). But it would be interesting to see the numbers.
I think the YMCA could be a groovy hotel if you spent enough money.
It has the best pool in Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think the YMCA could be a groovy hotel if you spent enough money.
It has the best pool in Tulsa.
That would kinda put a damper on the old city hall hotel idea aye...
Or is that still an idea.?
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think the YMCA could be a groovy hotel if you spent enough money.
It has the best pool in Tulsa.
That would kinda put a damper on the old city hall hotel idea aye...
Or is that still an idea.?
It's the reason Building Tulsa Building Lives is chasing these folks out of the Y and forcing this development on White City. As a matter of fact, considering the Admiral & Yale property is centrally located in relation to the fairgrounds, downtown, and the airport and in close proximity to the major interstate in a commercial corridor that services all three; it seems a Hotel at the Admiral and Yale location would be a much better fit than the use currently proposed. It would bring some much needed economic development to a struggling north Tulsa Commercial corridor instead of a residential use that would not result in the same economic impact of dollars turning over in this commercial corridor.
You keep calling this White City which from my memory starts around 4th street to 11th street. It is the only decent neighborhood in four directions, is bounded on the south by a gnarly looking prostitute and car lot laden thoroughfare which is more damaging to their values. It is hardly at risk for any negative consequences from this building's residents.
You'd rather see a motel/hotel? Highway hotels rarely do much to improve the neighborhoods they sit in unless its like a suburban Doubletree. Most of them attract truckers looking for strip joints nearby, groups of kids looking for someplace to party and druggies bunking up for a couple days. Go over by I-44 and Riverside and check out what you're asking for. Heck, just go up the street on Admiral and Memorial and see what wonderful things the motels have done for that area.
Why carry the battleflag for this skirmish?
So.... what your saying is that in place of this Hobo Heaven..... we could have our very own (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Redlight.gif)......!
Well that is something to think about..[}:)]
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
The one I'm thinking of is hard to place. I actually found it looking for something else. I believe it is south of the BA expressway and east of harvard around 25th?
It looks like several residential fenced in ranch style homes sitting far back from the street. Anyone know of this one?
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Now, I will say that if I ever hit the Powerball, I will see that the Beirut building, the Abundant Life building, and the apartments northwest of the Riverside and Denver intersection all come down.
Interesting thought. What would you put up? Something besides a surface parking lot I hope.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
You keep calling this White City which from my memory starts around 4th street to 11th street. It is the only decent neighborhood in four directions, is bounded on the south by a gnarly looking prostitute and car lot laden thoroughfare which is more damaging to their values. It is hardly at risk for any negative consequences from this building's residents.
You'd rather see a motel/hotel? Highway hotels rarely do much to improve the neighborhoods they sit in unless its like a suburban Doubletree. Most of them attract truckers looking for strip joints nearby, groups of kids looking for someplace to party and druggies bunking up for a couple days. Go over by I-44 and Riverside and check out what you're asking for. Heck, just go up the street on Admiral and Memorial and see what wonderful things the motels have done for that area.
Why carry the battleflag for this skirmish?
In a few cities I travel to there are typically low end and high end hotel/motels near the same area. The Holiday Inn runs $80 per night, while the mom and pop operated motel 1/2 mile away runs $45 per night. At Admiral and I-244 one finds the same mix of pricing and quality.
Depending on the quality, security and style one is seeking and their budget steers folks to choose one over the other. Most highway travelers don't stay long enough to survey the neighborhood, bath, bed, back of their eyelids, and the continental breakfast is most that the typically traveler ever sees.
A Holiday Inn at the eixt of I-244 on Yale lends itself to a great fit for that piece of realestate. Would also be a good location for a 24 hour restaurant such as an I-Hop, Pancake Place or Waffle House as the only competition in that area is the Denny's at I-244 and Sheridan. By charging $80+ a night for a room, the quality of the customer base is kept under control.
The 24 hour restaurant and motel/hotel franchise sales rep missed the boat on that location. One would think they were called on the carpet and quizzed why they had not proposed this land to prospective investors when the news of this 70 unit facility hit the media.
Come to think of it, don't recall ever seeing a For Sale sign posted on that lot?Home OwnershipHome ownership should be the number one priority for those intending to live for more than a few years in an area. In addition the mortgage companies earn their profits from providing mortgages and collecting monthly payments. Rent only results in a receipt and no equity.
If one earned only minimum wage today $6.55 per hour and worked 2080 hours per year, 40 hour work week, their total earnings would be around $1,340 per month.
Based on the minimum 30% of income for the monthly rental for these units one would think the majority of those earning upwards of $1,340 per month could afford to buy a house versus renting a room as they will be paying $340 per month. Actually if they claim and qualify for earned income tax credit, if they qualify for the maximum, they may be paying around $370 per month.
Even at the minimum wage $340 payment that should make the mortgage payment on most homes north of Admiral Boulevard in Tulsa. If they are married and both work that should increase to $680 per month payment based on the 30% rule of the housing deal. One should be qualified to purchase the majority of homes available north of 11th street for $680 per month payment today with the low property values, glut of vacant homes and low interest rates available.
WHAT HAPPEND TO SWEAT EQUITY?http://www.homevestors.com/inthenews/news.php?id=80
Actually asumptions of existing home loans should be another avenue to explore to purchase older homes in distressed areas. UG the Ugly House Buyer offerd $10,000 cash for a 3 bedroom house near Sheridan and Pine last week. He provided six contracts that showed he had purchased those six homes, all of which were 2 bedrooms or 3 bedrooms, in the surrounding area for $10,000 and less. Payment on that unit would be around $100 per month.
Keep in mind minimum wage will increase again to $7.25 in July of 2009. Or $1,256 per month average. That is a minimum monthly payment of $376 based on the 30% rule.
One may be way better off to check the multi-lists prior to signing a deal on a room. Or hang out around the Ug Buys Ugly Houses location on 15th street, and follow their rep to a few great home deals. :)
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
A Holiday Inn at the eixt of I-244 on Yale lends itself to a great fit for that piece of realestate. Would also be a good location for a 24 hour restaurant such as an I-Hop, Pancake Place or Waffle House as the only competition in that area is the Denny's at I-244 and Sheridan. By charging $80+ a night for a room, the quality of the customer base is kept under control.
The 24 hour restaurant and motel/hotel franchise sales rep missed the boat on that location. One would think they were called on the carpet and quizzed why they had not proposed this land to prospective investors when the news of this 70 unit facility hit the media.
I forgot to mention the proximity to TU. I bet plenty of visitors like prospective students, families of students and sports fans would take advantage of a mid ranged facility so close to the campus. Lots of events happening throughout the year on the TU campus, athletic events, graduations, etc.. If I had the money to build a hotel there, I would. I bet it would be really succesful. Sames goes for a 24 hour restaurant there.
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Forest Orchard is west of Hillcrest. They probably have some of this type of housing, poor neighborhoods usually bear the brunt of this sort of thing. I Gar-on-tee they don't have a 75 unit place. Nothing of that scale exists outside of downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
A Holiday Inn at the eixt of I-244 on Yale lends itself to a great fit for that piece of realestate. Would also be a good location for a 24 hour restaurant such as an I-Hop, Pancake Place or Waffle House as the only competition in that area is the Denny's at I-244 and Sheridan. By charging $80+ a night for a room, the quality of the customer base is kept under control.
The 24 hour restaurant and motel/hotel franchise sales rep missed the boat on that location. One would think they were called on the carpet and quizzed why they had not proposed this land to prospective investors when the news of this 70 unit facility hit the media.
I forgot to mention the proximity to TU. I bet plenty of visitors like prospective students, families of students and sports fans would take advantage of a mid ranged facility so close to the campus. Lots of events happening throughout the year on the TU campus, athletic events, graduations, etc.. If I had the money to build a hotel there, I would. I bet it would be really succesful. Sames goes for a 24 hour restaurant there.
So why can't the owner of that property go out for bid from other investors and propose it for other use which it is zoned for at this point in time. Did not read where the deal had been signed and the property closed on.
If I owned that lot, I would be opening invitations to purchase at bid, and looking at the highest bidders. With all the free advertising it has received, tens of thousands of words written about it, photos distributed, mpgs of media coverage, talks shows spending days discussing the location, it seems the value would be at its peak at this point.
Where is Daryl Baskin?
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
You keep calling this White City which from my memory starts around 4th street to 11th street. It is the only decent neighborhood in four directions, is bounded on the south by a gnarly looking prostitute and car lot laden thoroughfare which is more damaging to their values. It is hardly at risk for any negative consequences from this building's residents.
You'd rather see a motel/hotel? Highway hotels rarely do much to improve the neighborhoods they sit in unless its like a suburban Doubletree. Most of them attract truckers looking for strip joints nearby, groups of kids looking for someplace to party and druggies bunking up for a couple days. Go over by I-44 and Riverside and check out what you're asking for. Heck, just go up the street on Admiral and Memorial and see what wonderful things the motels have done for that area.
Why carry the battleflag for this skirmish?
In a few cities I travel to there are typically low end and high end hotel/motels near the same area. The Holiday Inn runs $80 per night, while the mom and pop operated motel 1/2 mile away runs $45 per night. At Admiral and I-244 one finds the same mix of pricing and quality.
Depending on the quality, security and style one is seeking and their budget steers folks to choose one over the other. Most highway travelers don't stay long enough to survey the neighborhood, bath, bed, back of their eyelids, and the continental breakfast is most that the typically traveler ever sees.
A Holiday Inn at the eixt of I-244 on Yale lends itself to a great fit for that piece of realestate. Would also be a good location for a 24 hour restaurant such as an I-Hop, Pancake Place or Waffle House as the only competition in that area is the Denny's at I-244 and Sheridan. By charging $80+ a night for a room, the quality of the customer base is kept under control.
The 24 hour restaurant and motel/hotel franchise sales rep missed the boat on that location. One would think they were called on the carpet and quizzed why they had not proposed this land to prospective investors when the news of this 70 unit facility hit the media.
Come to think of it, don't recall ever seeing a For Sale sign posted on that lot?
Home Ownership
Home ownership should be the number one priority for those intending to live for more than a few years in an area. In addition the mortgage companies earn their profits from providing mortgages and collecting monthly payments. Rent only results in a receipt and no equity.
If one earned only minimum wage today $6.55 per hour and worked 2080 hours per year, 40 hour work week, their total earnings would be around $1,340 per month.
Based on the minimum 30% of income for the monthly rental for these units one would think the majority of those earning upwards of $1,340 per month could afford to buy a house versus renting a room as they will be paying $340 per month. Actually if they claim and qualify for earned income tax credit, if they qualify for the maximum, they may be paying around $370 per month.
Even at the minimum wage $340 payment that should make the mortgage payment on most homes north of Admiral Boulevard in Tulsa. If they are married and both work that should increase to $680 per month payment based on the 30% rule of the housing deal. One should be qualified to purchase the majority of homes available north of 11th street for $680 per month payment today with the low property values, glut of vacant homes and low interest rates available.
WHAT HAPPEND TO SWEAT EQUITY?
http://www.homevestors.com/inthenews/news.php?id=80
Actually asumptions of existing home loans should be another avenue to explore to purchase older homes in distressed areas. UG the Ugly House Buyer offerd $10,000 cash for a 3 bedroom house near Sheridan and Pine last week. He provided six contracts that showed he had purchased those six homes, all of which were 2 bedrooms or 3 bedrooms, in the surrounding area for $10,000 and less. Payment on that unit would be around $100 per month.
Keep in mind minimum wage will increase again to $7.25 in July of 2009. Or $1,256 per month average. That is a minimum monthly payment of $376 based on the 30% rule.
One may be way better off to check the multi-lists prior to signing a deal on a room. Or hang out around the Ug Buys Ugly Houses location on 15th street, and follow their rep to a few great home deals. :)
I do not think someone making minimum wage should be buying a house. They should be more concerned with going to college and getting a career, or starting a business. Spending time upkeeping a house and yard at that point in ones life doesnt seem wise. Nor does locking oneself into a position of having lots of "stuff" to furnish and maintain a house, having to sell the house if you need to move for college or a better job, etc. also seems entirely the wrong thing to do. Its as though your assuming there will be a lot of people choosing to stay in minimum wage jobs for very long periods. Anyone, or couple, who would make that choice is setting themselves up for a life of hardship no matter how cheap the housing is. A person or couple (I dont think anyone making minimum wage should be thinking about getting married either, but thats a different discussion) at that point in their lives should maintain maximum flexibility, aka ability to move and have little to worry about moving, in order to take advantage of better job and educational opportunities no matter where in the country that may be.
The obvious exceptions would be people who are "down on their luck", have mental problems, etc. which then brings up the notion that people living in those types of situations in this neighborhood arent far removed from the situations that the people in the new Homeless Shelter are in. Its like the pot calling the kettle black. If there are houses going for 10,000 dollars in the area. I hardly see how this new building and the people in it will be bringing property values down or how the people in the area would think they are so much better off. Relatively speaking, they are truly all pretty much in the same boat.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
You keep calling this White City which from my memory starts around 4th street to 11th street. It is the only decent neighborhood in four directions, is bounded on the south by a gnarly looking prostitute and car lot laden thoroughfare which is more damaging to their values. It is hardly at risk for any negative consequences from this building's residents.
You'd rather see a motel/hotel? Highway hotels rarely do much to improve the neighborhoods they sit in unless its like a suburban Doubletree. Most of them attract truckers looking for strip joints nearby, groups of kids looking for someplace to party and druggies bunking up for a couple days. Go over by I-44 and Riverside and check out what you're asking for. Heck, just go up the street on Admiral and Memorial and see what wonderful things the motels have done for that area.
Why carry the battleflag for this skirmish?
In a few cities I travel to there are typically low end and high end hotel/motels near the same area. The Holiday Inn runs $80 per night, while the mom and pop operated motel 1/2 mile away runs $45 per night. At Admiral and I-244 one finds the same mix of pricing and quality.
Where at I-244 and Admiral is there a high end hotel/motel? La Quinta? At the airport but not on Admiral unless I've missed something.
Hotel people are not slow witted. Site location is their prime consideration. If there is demand, if there is availability of land, they will locate. Anyone know the occupancy rates or room count in Tulsa right now? Seems with the Arena and a potential Ball Park they would be scrambling to build more if they though it necessary. And there is certainly more cheap land along Admiral should they want to locate.
Anyone that would like to get involved with the rest of us working with each other and for each other, please visit www.whoownstulsa.org. Sign up for updates, get information on how to sign the recall petition and volunteer help if you're interested.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Now, I will say that if I ever hit the Powerball, I will see that the Beirut building, the Abundant Life building, and the apartments northwest of the Riverside and Denver intersection all come down.
Interesting thought. What would you put up? Something besides a surface parking lot I hope.
Three Starbucks locations. [:o)]
I dunno. I'm just taking them down.
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
Just a guess... But I believe that piece of real estate would cost more than the lot at 10 S Yale.
But the main reason I believe is zoning.
Bear in mind
none of the homeless shelters... such as the day center, John 3:16,
Salvation Army,not to mention Avalon, would be, if not for a bending of the zoning regulations.
They were never intended to be placed there.
At least the City Planners did not call for it.
What you are seeing at 10 South Yale is an un-clustering and new approach to dealing with the issue.
I doubt the building will cause the turmoil eluded to in this topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
Just a guess... But I believe that piece of real estate would cost more than the lot at 10 S Yale.
But the main reason I believe is zoning.
Bear in mind none of the homeless shelters... such as the day center, John 3:16,
Salvation Army,not to mention Avalon, would be, if not for a bending of the zoning regulations.
They were never intended to be placed there.
At least the City Planners did not call for it.
What you are seeing at 10 South Yale is an un-clustering and new approach to dealing with the issue.
I doubt the building will cause the turmoil eluded to in this topic.
But look at the chance to fix up a building that is also very visible... Not my money and our opinions don't matter anyway[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
Just a guess... But I believe that piece of real estate would cost more than the lot at 10 S Yale.
But the main reason I believe is zoning.
Bear in mind none of the homeless shelters... such as the day center, John 3:16,
Salvation Army,not to mention Avalon, would be, if not for a bending of the zoning regulations.
They were never intended to be placed there.
At least the City Planners did not call for it.
What you are seeing at 10 South Yale is an un-clustering and new approach to dealing with the issue.
I doubt the building will cause the turmoil eluded to in this topic.
Uh, didn't your hood just fight a similar type of development successfully? Didn't your hood band together with other neighborhoods to fight it? You seem kinda nonchalant and dismissive about this, considering that. Does it not really matter to you since it's not in your backyard? Have you become one of those good NIMBYs Bates talked about?
I had someone ask me yesterday why they call this part of town White City. Does anyone know?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
Just a guess... But I believe that piece of real estate would cost more than the lot at 10 S Yale.
But the main reason I believe is zoning.
Bear in mind none of the homeless shelters... such as the day center, John 3:16,
Salvation Army,not to mention Avalon, would be, if not for a bending of the zoning regulations.
They were never intended to be placed there.
At least the City Planners did not call for it.
What you are seeing at 10 South Yale is an un-clustering and new approach to dealing with the issue.
I doubt the building will cause the turmoil eluded to in this topic.
Uh, didn't your hood just fight a similar type of development successfully? Didn't your hood band together with other neighborhoods to fight it? You seem kinda nonchalant and dismissive about this, considering that. Does it not really matter to you since it's not in your backyard? Have you become one of those good NIMBYs Bates talked about?
The matter you refer to was the issuance of a variance for a "parole center"... Small difference between parole and indigent or mentally ill... wouldn't you say.?
That matter required a variance in order to be put into play. That is the only reason we had recourse.
If it is of any conciliation to these "nervous Nellies"..... There are no plans to close the Day Center, The Salvation Army, John 3:16, etc. and a variance goes on and on.
So if you and the others are correct that the key objective for these individuals is to get drunk, cause trouble, lower property values, etc. Rest Easy... They will still be able to do so where they belong.
Downtown.
My "nonchalant" attitude may just be the perception that 75 individuals would barely be noticeable if that is all you had to deal with.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I had someone ask me yesterday why they call this part of town White City. Does anyone know?
Read page five of this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I had someone ask me yesterday why they call this part of town White City. Does anyone know?
Read page five of this thread.
Thanks RM, that was really interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
Just a guess... But I believe that piece of real estate would cost more than the lot at 10 S Yale.
But the main reason I believe is zoning.
Bear in mind none of the homeless shelters... such as the day center, John 3:16,
Salvation Army,not to mention Avalon, would be, if not for a bending of the zoning regulations.
They were never intended to be placed there.
At least the City Planners did not call for it.
What you are seeing at 10 South Yale is an un-clustering and new approach to dealing with the issue.
I doubt the building will cause the turmoil eluded to in this topic.
Uh, didn't your hood just fight a similar type of development successfully? Didn't your hood band together with other neighborhoods to fight it? You seem kinda nonchalant and dismissive about this, considering that. Does it not really matter to you since it's not in your backyard? Have you become one of those good NIMBYs Bates talked about?
The matter you refer to was the issuance of a variance for a "parole center"... Small difference between parole and indigent or mentally ill... wouldn't you say.?
That matter required a variance in order to be put into play. That is the only reason we had recourse.
If it is of any conciliation to these "nervous Nellies"..... There are no plans to close the Day Center, The Salvation Army, John 3:16, etc. and a variance goes on and on.
So if you and the others are correct that the key objective for these individuals is to get drunk, cause trouble, lower property values, etc. Rest Easy... They will still be able to do so where they belong.
Downtown.
My "nonchalant" attitude may just be the perception that 75 individuals would barely be noticeable if that is all you had to deal with.
I look forward to Owen park and the TNA welcoming this project in their neighborhoods, then. White City is looking for alternate locations to suggest that this be moved to, I'll pass that location along to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Has anyone heard why not buy and fix the hotel thats for sale above Coney Island. Perfectly positioned across the street from the bus station, one block from the library and 2 block from working part time jobs at the new arena.
Just a guess... But I believe that piece of real estate would cost more than the lot at 10 S Yale.
But the main reason I believe is zoning.
Bear in mind none of the homeless shelters... such as the day center, John 3:16,
Salvation Army,not to mention Avalon, would be, if not for a bending of the zoning regulations.
They were never intended to be placed there.
At least the City Planners did not call for it.
What you are seeing at 10 South Yale is an un-clustering and new approach to dealing with the issue.
I doubt the building will cause the turmoil eluded to in this topic.
Uh, didn't your hood just fight a similar type of development successfully? Didn't your hood band together with other neighborhoods to fight it? You seem kinda nonchalant and dismissive about this, considering that. Does it not really matter to you since it's not in your backyard? Have you become one of those good NIMBYs Bates talked about?
The matter you refer to was the issuance of a variance for a "parole center"... Small difference between parole and indigent or mentally ill... wouldn't you say.?
That matter required a variance in order to be put into play. That is the only reason we had recourse.
If it is of any conciliation to these "nervous Nellies"..... There are no plans to close the Day Center, The Salvation Army, John 3:16, etc. and a variance goes on and on.
So if you and the others are correct that the key objective for these individuals is to get drunk, cause trouble, lower property values, etc. Rest Easy... They will still be able to do so where they belong.
Downtown.
My "nonchalant" attitude may just be the perception that 75 individuals would barely be noticeable if that is all you had to deal with.
It's more like 120 occupants , your number is the number of units ( plus or minus 1 )
Well Aa you have to "know when to hold them... and know when to fold them."
I'll take my chances..
White City is quite some distance from this development is it not??
That would have to be one industrious homeless fellow to make that stroll.
The liquor store is the other direction.
[}:)]
AA, Flag Bearer for the NIMBY movement...Palladin, Palladin, where do you roam? Palladin, Palladin, far, far from home...
This anti group would be better off pooling their money to clean up 11th street rather than reaching over onto Admiral. They've certainly looked askance as Admiral slowly deteriorated into poor quality. Admiral doesn't even have curbs between Yale and Sheridan.
Whatever. I read with interest Pearson's opinion page piece in the World this morning. This strong movement to divide the city up on every issue simply serves to make sure we do nothing rather than offend anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Whatever. I read with interest Pearson's opinion page piece in the World this morning. This strong movement to divide the city up on every issue simply serves to make sure we do nothing rather than offend anyone.
And once again a one-sided blame to go with it.
Just because the "blamed side" can't afford the millions to do what they would like in Tulsa. They should just be quiet and let the "non-blamed" do whatever they want because they have the millions. Even if it raises the cost of the "blamed" to live in Tulsa or changes the quality of living of the "blamed" .
Maybe JP can qualify next year for the Tulsa Hall of Fame with all her kiss azz....
Janet's piece should have been page 1....
It is really not hard to "pin down what is fueling the negativity."
Yes, "tough times and mistrust of power and authority", "the switch to council government", the small contrarians who garner a "disproportionate share of influence" combined to produce this climate! No maybe about it.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Whatever. I read with interest Pearson's opinion page piece in the World this morning. This strong movement to divide the city up on every issue simply serves to make sure we do nothing rather than offend anyone.
And once again a one-sided blame to go with it.
Just because the "blamed side" can't afford the millions to do what they would like in Tulsa. They should just be quiet and let the "non-blamed" do whatever they want because they have the millions. Even if it raises the cost of the "blamed" to live in Tulsa or changes the quality of living of the "blamed" .
Maybe JP can qualify next year for the Tulsa Hall of Fame with all her kiss azz....
None of your post makes sense to me. Guess I read something different into her piece. She was commenting on our propensity to be so bound up in our own fractional interests as to ignore the common interest. I saw nothing about blame except for those that refuse to yield or compromise at all, rich, poor, educated or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Well Aa you have to "know when to hold them... and know when to fold them."
I'll take my chances..
White City is quite some distance from this development is it not??
That would have to be one industrious homeless fellow to make that stroll.
The liquor store is the other direction.
[}:)]
BTW, it's not just White City, Maxwell Park and Sequoyah are affected and are opposed to this as well. White city is about a block from this.
THE FEAR!!!!!![}:)]
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their moto is "don't tread on me" (Garcia/Hunter)
FOTD lives close to a hospital. The MIRA virus is within a distance that could destroy my neighborhood. Be leary of health clinics.
It could be worse. To think Planned Parenthood could locate near me. Baby killers!
And, there are homes with co-oped occupants in recovery, part of "the program" near me. Oh the nights this devil lays awake trembling.
But those nearby apartments with gunslingers are no issue......
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Well Aa you have to "know when to hold them... and know when to fold them."
I'll take my chances..
White City is quite some distance from this development is it not??
That would have to be one industrious homeless fellow to make that stroll.
The liquor store is the other direction.
[}:)]
BTW, it's not just White City, Maxwell Park and Sequoyah are affected and are opposed to this as well. White city is about a block from this.
White City never started before 4th street before. Expanding is it? Including streets, places, boulevards and the 1/4 mile wide bridge over I-244 its more like a half mile at least. But why stop there? Squiggle is probably against it. Anyone on Archer, Independence, Haskell. Truthfully you could round up any part of the city that has no such facilities currently and fold them into the "movement".
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
THE FEAR!!!!!![}:)]
"Their walls are built of cannon balls, their moto is "don't tread on me" (Garcia/Hunter)
FOTD lives close to a hospital. The MIRA virus is within a distance that could destroy my neighborhood. Be leary of health clinics.
It could be worse. To think Planned Parenthood could locate near me. Baby killers!
And, there are homes with co-oped occupants in recovery, part of "the program" near me. Oh the nights this devil lays awake trembling.
But those nearby apartments with gunslingers are no issue......
Lucky guy. I live within a qtr. mile of a hillbilly bar with obnoxious motorcycles blasting off all the time. Then on Saturday nights the gastro elitists descend on us looking for good Italian and Nouveau cuisine. Not to mention those dang firetrucks with their sirens.
And don't get me started about living close to a "midtown elitist" grade school. Then we have those unsavory teenagers walking to the bus stop. I'm tellin' ya'. WE GOTTA STOP THIS STUFF NOW!! ARE YOU WITH ME FELLOW NIMBY'S? WE GOTTA' TAKE OUR NEIGHBORHOODS BACK![;)]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
White City never started before 4th street before.
No. The boundaries are the expressway to 11th from Yale to the railroad tracks.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
White City never started before 4th street before.
No. The boundaries are the expressway to 11th from Yale to the railroad tracks.
Are those association boundaries? When I sold real estate over there it didn't start till south of 4th street which was the main artery to Memorial from Harvard. The White City Dairy certainly didn't go that far north and you can see a distinct difference in housing style north of 4th and Hudson. If it went north of there I guess they ran the expressway through it. Dang oligarchists.
I could be wrong. Maybe we just said that to sell homes. Doesn't matter much. We call everything Maple Ridge over here too even though very little really is. They can call themselves whatever they want and fight for truth, justice, and the American way under whatever Nimby battle flag is convenient. Perhaps they could fight for gating themselves in like out south. NO FREEDOM WITHOUT WALLS!
I visited the website. I'll tell you who owns Tulsa. Its developers, builders, insurance companies, banks, real estate companies and lawyers. Stop sending your kids into these lucrative careers, move to the country, run naked with a shotgun and be free. The city needs to move on.
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Resonance is located at 16th and Elwood. While its not a "homeless shelter" it is a place where women that are recovering or have been released from recent incarceration are assisted back into the community. Resonance is a welcome neighbor in our area.
I think the term "homless shelter" does not apply in relation to either the YMCA or BTBL since the occupants do pay room and board.
Just thought I'd sneak some facts in:
This would be the 3rd or 4th such facility in the city of Tulsa and will be the nicest by far.
Homeless will not be living here, the residents will be working and paying rent.
This is meant for people who either need someone making sure they don't mess up their meds, having trouble integrating due to problems like autism, those kinds of things. This is just an assisted living center for people with various mental conditions. Without this level of assistance, they would not be able to maintain a productive life or job and likely would eventually end up homeless.
Thanks grizz. I noticed Mr Bates avoided these facts in his UTW opinion in favor of inserting latin and emotion.
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
Thanks grizz. I noticed Mr Bates avoided these facts in his UTW opinion in favor of inserting latin and emotion.
[:D]
Well stated. Who needs facts when you have opinion? As Colbert says, facts may change, but his opinion doesn't.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
Thanks grizz. I noticed Mr Bates avoided these facts in his UTW opinion in favor of inserting latin and emotion.
Hopefully that should surpise no-one.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Resonance is located at 16th and Elwood. While its not a "homeless shelter" it is a place where women that are recovering or have been released from recent incarceration are assisted back into the community. Resonance is a welcome neighbor in our area.
I think the term "homless shelter" does not apply in relation to either the YMCA or BTBL since the occupants do pay room and board.
Like I've said before, put it at the abandoned homeland store on Denver just north of Highway 51 if this is such a nice facility. I find it ironic that you are talking like you are superior and more enlightened than everyone else, while moving this problem to Admiral & Yale gets this problem away from your neighborhood and downtown. I guess that makes you one of those good NIMBY's. The women don't live at Resonance and the facility does not accommodate anywhere near 120 people, either. That's comparing apples to oranges.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Resonance is located at 16th and Elwood. While its not a "homeless shelter" it is a place where women that are recovering or have been released from recent incarceration are assisted back into the community. Resonance is a welcome neighbor in our area.
I think the term "homless shelter" does not apply in relation to either the YMCA or BTBL since the occupants do pay room and board.
Like I've said before, put it at the abandoned homeland store on Denver just north of Highway 51 if this is such a nice facility. I find it ironic that you are talking like you are superior and more enlightened than everyone else, while moving this problem to Admiral & Yale gets this problem away from your neighborhood and downtown. I guess that makes you one of those good NIMBY's. The women don't live at Resonance and the facility does not accommodate anywhere near 120 people, either. That's comparing apples to oranges.
What is the asking price for the parcel of land where Homeland was? Probably a lot more than 1st and Yale . . .
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Janet's piece should have been page 1....
It is really not hard to "pin down what is fueling the negativity."
Yes, "tough times and mistrust of power and authority", "the switch to council government", the small contrarians who garner a "disproportionate share of influence" combined to produce this climate! No maybe about it.
Thanks for turning me onto that. It's a pretty good summary of the tinfoil hat crowd and other obscructionists. They have no vision, for the most part. A few just like to hear their own voices.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
So what does that say about the people who are working so hard to clear the YMCA and its residents out of downtown?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Resonance is located at 16th and Elwood. While its not a "homeless shelter" it is a place where women that are recovering or have been released from recent incarceration are assisted back into the community. Resonance is a welcome neighbor in our area.
I think the term "homless shelter" does not apply in relation to either the YMCA or BTBL since the occupants do pay room and board.
Like I've said before, put it at the abandoned homeland store on Denver just north of Highway 51 if this is such a nice facility. I find it ironic that you are talking like you are superior and more enlightened than everyone else, while moving this problem to Admiral & Yale gets this problem away from your neighborhood and downtown. I guess that makes you one of those good NIMBY's. The women don't live at Resonance and the facility does not accommodate anywhere near 120 people, either. That's comparing apples to oranges.
I'm fine with putting it at Denver and 11th. If you can make that happen I will not complain. This is a nice facility and the residents are harmless (not homeless as they pay rent).
I don't know why you are such a hater. Why do you think everyone else is an elitist?
My neighborhood is filled with low rent affordable housing not nearly as nice as this facility will be. A house a few doors down from me has squatters living in it and I mow their yard for them and pick up their leaves so the city won't hassle them.
You have no right to judge me or call me a NIMBY (good or bad).
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Resonance is located at 16th and Elwood. While its not a "homeless shelter" it is a place where women that are recovering or have been released from recent incarceration are assisted back into the community. Resonance is a welcome neighbor in our area.
I think the term "homless shelter" does not apply in relation to either the YMCA or BTBL since the occupants do pay room and board.
Like I've said before, put it at the abandoned homeland store on Denver just north of Highway 51 if this is such a nice facility. I find it ironic that you are talking like you are superior and more enlightened than everyone else, while moving this problem to Admiral & Yale gets this problem away from your neighborhood and downtown. I guess that makes you one of those good NIMBY's. The women don't live at Resonance and the facility does not accommodate anywhere near 120 people, either. That's comparing apples to oranges.
I'm fine with putting it at Denver and 11th. If you can make that happen I will not complain. This is a nice facility and the residents are harmless (not homeless as they pay rent).
I don't know why you are such a hater. Why do you think everyone else is an elitist?
My neighborhood is filled with low rent affordable housing not nearly as nice as this facility will be. A house a few doors down from me has squatters living in it and I mow their yard for them and pick up their leaves so the city won't hassle them.
You have no right to judge me or call me a NIMBY (good or bad).
What gives you the right to stand in judgment of these neighborhoods?
Your speciously sanctimonious statements ring hollow. You just seem offended for being called on it.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Janet's piece should have been page 1....
It is really not hard to "pin down what is fueling the negativity."
Yes, "tough times and mistrust of power and authority", "the switch to council government", the small contrarians who garner a "disproportionate share of influence" combined to produce this climate! No maybe about it.
Thanks for turning me onto that. It's a pretty good summary of the tinfoil hat crowd and other obscructionists. They have no vision, for the most part. A few just like to hear their own voices.
Certainly. You are welcome.
BTW, notice who penned in next?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Flamingo
I've read that there are more shelters in other neighborhoods around town. Does anyone know where they are or how to find out? I think it would be interesting to drive by and have a look and to see what part of town they're located in. A neighborhood called Forest Orchard, I believe it's called, has one and reports that they're having no problems at all. Thanks.
Resonance is located at 16th and Elwood. While its not a "homeless shelter" it is a place where women that are recovering or have been released from recent incarceration are assisted back into the community. Resonance is a welcome neighbor in our area.
I think the term "homless shelter" does not apply in relation to either the YMCA or BTBL since the occupants do pay room and board.
Like I've said before, put it at the abandoned homeland store on Denver just north of Highway 51 if this is such a nice facility. I find it ironic that you are talking like you are superior and more enlightened than everyone else, while moving this problem to Admiral & Yale gets this problem away from your neighborhood and downtown. I guess that makes you one of those good NIMBY's. The women don't live at Resonance and the facility does not accommodate anywhere near 120 people, either. That's comparing apples to oranges.
I'm very disappointed in your view AA. If nothing else you've been a resolute champion for principles of fairness, equality, and justice. It almost seems as if you've traded them in for some political reasons.
How does keeping groups of people considered "troublesome" grouped in ghettos downtown, separated from others, fit into your past opinions?
Is it fair to have only the downtown neighborhoods shoulder this task? Yeah, there's lots of vacant land down there. There's also an empty unusable lot at 48th and Yale on the west side that has many nice advantages. Why isn't anything south of 11th street being considered. That would be fairness.
Is it equal treatment to make sure they are far from more mainstream populations? They want to be near and emulate successful people's lifestyles. Putting them all downtown to see only each other is hardly equality. It is closer to the way blacks were treated here for generations.
Is it justice to have them treated like zoo animals kept in plain sight downtown only to be viewed disdainfully when "good" people visit the arena and the ballpark?
I see you on the wrong side of this.
Oh I see. I'm wrong for thinking that these neighborhoods have an apparent bias towards their fellow humans because of the stink they are creating over what they think is a "homeless shleter" moving into the area.
I must be misinformed because their actions obviously show that I'm the one with the problem not them.
These are not the actions of a group of people responding out of fear and bias:
1.Creating a petition to recall their city counsilors for something outside of their control.
2. Blaming said councilors for the location, not providing a heads up, voting to approve private donations so that state funds could be secured.
3. Suggesting that there is a conspiracy to close the YMCA due to the opening of the BOK center
4. Calling people who live in downtown reverse NIMBYs
5. Numerous opinion letters printed in the daily paper, along with responses on the TW blog and in this forum that state point blank that they don't want that rif-raf in their neighborhoods undermining their property value
6. In these same formats launching hate filled bile at the donors and at the mayor
Yes, of course I'm the one who has a problem.
Why don't they put it on Brookside. It could be a "urban, mixed use development!" It's not far from the river, (where alot of them stay, during the daytime and it's still close to TRMC, St. John's and Hillcrest so they can get their medication and have easy medical service.
Is it fair to put this in a North Tulsa commercial corridor in North Tulsa effectively killing any chance for real economic development in this commercial interstate corridor? I've been around Tulsa long enough to see what happens when social services move into the retail/commercial areas in North Tulsa, the customers dry up and the businesses leave, never to come back. Is it fair to cluster so much of this type of housing in North Tulsa? The homeless are better served in the IDL. This is economic cleansing in the downtown area to clear the homeless from the IDL for a gentrified, homogeneous, elitist, population complete with taxpayer subsidized luxury lofts. That's why I'm pissed off about this.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Is it fair to put this in a North Tulsa commercial corridor in North Tulsa effectively killing any chance for real economic development in this commercial interstate corridor? I've been around Tulsa long enough to see what happens when social services move into the retail/commercial areas in North Tulsa, the customers dry up and the businesses leave, never to come back. Is it fair to cluster so much of this type of housing in North Tulsa? The homeless are better served in the IDL. This is economic cleansing in the downtown area to clear the homeless from the IDL for a gentrified, homogeneous, elitist, population complete with taxpayer subsidized luxury lofts. That's why I'm pissed off about this.
Well, you're getting close but no cigar. White City is not North Tulsa. The Admiral corridor has been declining for over 30years and this won't accelerate that.
But you're so close in my mind. When Blacks are persecuted, do they turn to Latino's and kick them in the donkey? Not usually. Following the same behaviour as your oppressors makes you no better and perhaps even worse.
I'm pissed too! Why is it either downtown, northside or near north? Why does Hillcrest and St.John's carry a larger burden of unpaid indigent healthcare than St.Francis and Southcrest? There is space all over this town and none of it is even being considered!
Don't aid and abet the process. Welcome well crafted and thoughtful programs into Admiral and Yale. Then make sure the next one is at 101st and Mingo, 48th and Yale or Utica %#*ing Square.[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
So what does that say about the people who are working so hard to clear the YMCA and its residents out of downtown?
So now we're bashing the fire code?
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
So what does that say about the people who are working so hard to clear the YMCA and its residents out of downtown?
So now we're bashing the fire code?
Who wrote the fire code?
The oligarchs.
And "fire" starts "f," as in F&M Bank.
And the Arkansas river has banks.
So, it's all a conspiracy. And even if it's not, let's just say it is.
You forgot to mention bananas.
How can we have a conspiracy without a banana republic?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
You forgot to mention bananas.
How can we have a conspiracy without a banana republic?
Well, I don't want you knowing about the banana part of the conspiracy.
That's top secret.
Only people on the internet talk about it.
So it must be true.
(http://www.alancaseyentertainment.com.au/Bananas%20in%20Pajamas.JPG)
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
You forgot to mention bananas.
How can we have a conspiracy without a banana republic?
And Banana Republic is in Utica Square where all the oligarchs meet to shop and plan strategy.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
You forgot to mention bananas.
How can we have a conspiracy without a banana republic?
And Banana Republic is in Utica Square where all the oligarchs meet to shop and plan strategy.
There's an F&M Bank at Utica Square, too.
And several places that sell the Tulsa World.
And I saw the fire marshall shopping there once.
See! See!
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
So what does that say about the people who are working so hard to clear the YMCA and its residents out of downtown?
So now we're bashing the fire code?
Does the fire code ban indigents and the mentally ill from downtown?
Was Suzanne Stewart from the Convention and Visitors Bureau at the THA meeting last week because she was concerned about the fire code?
The need for sprinklers is not sufficient reason to tear down a building and relocate the people who live there.
In New York City, Common Ground renovated buildings that were already housing the homeless, mentally ill, and indigent in Times Square and in the Chelsea neighborhood. They allowed these people to stay in familiar, walkable neighborhoods with access to transportation, jobs, and services.
Building Tulsa, Building Lives could do the same for the residents of the YMCA, but they want them out of downtown badly enough to spend $17 million on the project. I believe they could fix up the Y, or perhaps one of Maurice Kanbar's empty buildings, for that amount.
BTBL wants to push YMCA residents from a location with a walkability score of 89 to a location with a walkability score of 45, from a place with 20 bus lines to a place with a single, daytime-only bus line. Is that really serving the interests of the YMCA residents?
Michael, I guess I need an education. What jobs are in our downtown? There are some construction gigs available but most of the jobs downtown are not exactly blue collar. What am I missing?
I wonder what the YMCA people think about all this?
Do they want to stay in the housing business?
Do they think the building doesn't need sprinklers? Do they have plans to renovate or sell once the building is empty? Do they think their tenants would be better off somewhere else?
How come nobody is talking to them?
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
So what does that say about the people who are working so hard to clear the YMCA and its residents out of downtown?
So now we're bashing the fire code?
Does the fire code ban indigents and the mentally ill from downtown?
Was Suzanne Stewart from the Convention and Visitors Bureau at the THA meeting last week because she was concerned about the fire code?
The need for sprinklers is not sufficient reason to tear down a building and relocate the people who live there.
In New York City, Common Ground renovated buildings that were already housing the homeless, mentally ill, and indigent in Times Square and in the Chelsea neighborhood. They allowed these people to stay in familiar, walkable neighborhoods with access to transportation, jobs, and services.
Building Tulsa, Building Lives could do the same for the residents of the YMCA, but they want them out of downtown badly enough to spend $17 million on the project. I believe they could fix up the Y, or perhaps one of Maurice Kanbar's empty buildings, for that amount.
BTBL wants to push YMCA residents from a location with a walkability score of 89 to a location with a walkability score of 45, from a place with 20 bus lines to a place with a single, daytime-only bus line. Is that really serving the interests of the YMCA residents?
The law is certainly a reason for someone to move out of a building. Look at Table 704.1. http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Ordinances/ordinances/14PREVEN.pdf. My understanding is that it's a misdemeanor to violate this ordinance. So, again, another reason to close the facility.
Just because the fire code/sprinkler issue prevents them from staying at the Y doesn't mean the building comes down. I thought it applied to residential space. This issue is several years old and my understanding is that people have known for a long time that the Y was going to close.
Again, it would be interesting to see the numbers for retrofitting these sprinklers rather than both sides asserting that it is cheaper/more expensive to add them as opposed to building something new on cheaper real estate.
Just a guess, as I've never set foot in the Y that I can remember, but I'm willing to bet the building needs a whole lot more than a fire sprinkler upgrade.
Yup.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
Michael, I guess I need an education. What jobs are in our downtown? There are some construction gigs available but most of the jobs downtown are not exactly blue collar. What am I missing?
Believe it or not, there are still many blue collar jobs downtown, not to mention the industrial areas northeast and east of downtown and that wee oil refinery just across the river. Even in the office buildings and entertainment areas there are plenty of jobs that don't require a law degree or an MBA, but if you aren't looking for them, you might not notice.
Last I heard, 35,000 people work downtown. At its peak, back in the '80s, downtown employment was twice that number.
As a transit hub, downtown provides non-stop access to many more job-sites around Tulsa. There are 20 bus lines that serve the downtown bus station. Four of those are night lines that provide transportation for shift work and night courses.
At Admiral & Yale, there is only one bus line. It runs east and west along Admiral at 40 minute intervals. Transferring to any other line at the downtown station can mean a considerable wait. (The bus routes don't seem to be synchronized very well, partly because each route has a different frequency.) Being able to get where you need to go without a transfer makes bus travel much more practical.
RM, even if the Y wants to get out of the residence business, that doesn't mean they couldn't sell the facility to BTBL to remodel. And in response to someone who said they'd have to vacate the Y building to add sprinklers, buildings get modified all the time without clearing everyone out. Common Ground kept 200 residents of the Times Square Hotel in place when they remodeled it to become a 600-unit supported living facility.
Often times jobs are not performed at the same location from where the workers live and are dispatched from. Many service businesses are located in the downtown area and use vans and service trucks to move helpers to job sites not in downtown. There are also several labor companies that deliver labor to job sites from their downtown branches.
Lower cost labor typically lives in lower cost housing areas. Just as in Branson, Missouri or other tourist areas, the service personnel typically comute from surrounding lower housing cost areas. To be competitive, most businesses rely on lower cost labor.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
You forgot to mention bananas.
How can we have a conspiracy without a banana republic?
And Banana Republic is in Utica Square where all the oligarchs meet to shop and plan strategy.
There's an F&M Bank at Utica Square, too.
And several places that sell the Tulsa World.
And I saw the fire marshall shopping there once.
See! See!
Wow. now we get to see something smart finally. Too bad the only thing smart from this contains donkey
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Just thought I'd sneak some facts in:
This would be the 3rd or 4th such facility in the city of Tulsa and will be the nicest by far.
Homeless will not be living here, the residents will be working and paying rent.
This is meant for people who either need someone making sure they don't mess up their meds, having trouble integrating due to problems like autism, those kinds of things. This is just an assisted living center for people with various mental conditions. Without this level of assistance, they would not be able to maintain a productive life or job and likely would eventually end up homeless.
Source?? or are you excempt ?
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Just thought I'd sneak some facts in:
This would be the 3rd or 4th such facility in the city of Tulsa and will be the nicest by far.
Homeless will not be living here, the residents will be working and paying rent.
This is meant for people who either need someone making sure they don't mess up their meds, having trouble integrating due to problems like autism, those kinds of things. This is just an assisted living center for people with various mental conditions. Without this level of assistance, they would not be able to maintain a productive life or job and likely would eventually end up homeless.
Source?? or are you excempt ?
excempt?
The three locations currently offering low-income housing and mental health assistance are Pioneer Plaza, Hewgley Terrace, & LaFortune Towers. One of which is downtown and the other two are about a mile outside the IDL. All involve staff from the Mental Health Association of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Just thought I'd sneak some facts in:
This would be the 3rd or 4th such facility in the city of Tulsa and will be the nicest by far.
Homeless will not be living here, the residents will be working and paying rent.
This is meant for people who either need someone making sure they don't mess up their meds, having trouble integrating due to problems like autism, those kinds of things. This is just an assisted living center for people with various mental conditions. Without this level of assistance, they would not be able to maintain a productive life or job and likely would eventually end up homeless.
Source?? or are you excempt ?
excempt?
The three locations currently offering low-income housing and mental health assistance are Pioneer Plaza, Hewgley Terrace, & LaFortune Towers. One of which is downtown and the other two are about a mile outside the IDL. All involve staff from the Mental Health Association of Tulsa.
"exempt" yada yada
Now explain why one should beleive what you write over what someone writing a column that is published writes?
Pioneer plaza has daily fire calls due to someone burning toast. This will put firefighters at more of a strain possibly for those living near Admiral and Yale.
Lafortune has many fire calls too but not as many.
Hewgley security would be laughable if the problem with protecting residents inside from the danger of people who prey on the weak wasn't serious.
All 3 of those are older complexes with a more dorm-like feel. These are 1 bedroom studio apartments with kitchens and bathrooms.
I like Bates but if he didn't have a flair for the dramatic, he wouldn't have a job at UT. Not to mention he never liked Gomez and has one of those little tear-off calendars counting down days until the next council election. (see, now that last part about the calendar was made up)
MD, you give too much credence to columnists. Especially one who writes for a weekly alternative paper. Why haven't you shown support for Janet Pearson's excellent take on this in last Sunday's World? I happen to like Bates but not his politics and thats what this is. As long as the hatred exists between classes, parties and races in this town we'll have these opportunistic battles flaring up whenever some unpopular issue surfaces.
I'm around town a lot during the day. Firetrucks respond to fire alarms at many different complexes each day including apartments in cake eaters country. Senior citizen retirement homes are particularly prone to burning things. Do you also not want any of them in your neighborhood?
Everyone take five steps back from the computer, breath, calm down and come back. Are you back yet? No, what about now?
Ok now that your back, do any of you remember why you where mad?
If not I will remind you, the THA is "overstepping" there bounds, that said, are you putting fire under the correct peoples asses? Most likely not, who manages the THA, how do they get there power? Once you know that go after that process with the people in power.
No one was purposely left out of the process, and again lots of donated money is helping a new home be built.
Conspiracy? I think not, let's face the facts, the YMCA is closing, the YMCA and its parent organizations all across the US are leaving, yes leaving the shelters business. No evil local plot here to hurt people, just what the YMCA as a private organization as a whole is exiting the shelter "business."
Why that property? I have no idea, but I can guess it (the home being built) is going to hurt the property values of the area any more than all the poorly maintained rental homes and low end commercial businesses. If anything aesthetically it will be a facelift to that part of the street.
If the neighborhood is that afraid of the people they should be this organized when they form neighborhood watches. An aware neighborhood is a safe one.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
Michael, I guess I need an education. What jobs are in our downtown? There are some construction gigs available but most of the jobs downtown are not exactly blue collar. What am I missing?
Believe it or not, there are still many blue collar jobs downtown, not to mention the industrial areas northeast and east of downtown and that wee oil refinery just across the river. Even in the office buildings and entertainment areas there are plenty of jobs that don't require a law degree or an MBA, but if you aren't looking for them, you might not notice.
Last I heard, 35,000 people work downtown. At its peak, back in the '80s, downtown employment was twice that number.
As a transit hub, downtown provides non-stop access to many more job-sites around Tulsa. There are 20 bus lines that serve the downtown bus station. Four of those are night lines that provide transportation for shift work and night courses.
At Admiral & Yale, there is only one bus line. It runs east and west along Admiral at 40 minute intervals. Transferring to any other line at the downtown station can mean a considerable wait. (The bus routes don't seem to be synchronized very well, partly because each route has a different frequency.) Being able to get where you need to go without a transfer makes bus travel much more practical.
RM, even if the Y wants to get out of the residence business, that doesn't mean they couldn't sell the facility to BTBL to remodel. And in response to someone who said they'd have to vacate the Y building to add sprinklers, buildings get modified all the time without clearing everyone out. Common Ground kept 200 residents of the Times Square Hotel in place when they remodeled it to become a 600-unit supported living facility.
Thanks Michael and I agree that a modification to the existing facility should be investigated, but I doubt that it could ever be modified to give the residents personal bathrooms and kitchens. Certainly building a new facility in downtown would meet with less resistance than the Admiral and Yale proposal.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Pioneer plaza has daily fire calls due to someone burning toast. This will put firefighters at more of a strain possibly for those living near Admiral and Yale.
Lafortune has many fire calls too but not as many.
Hewgley security would be laughable if the problem with protecting residents inside from the danger of people who prey on the weak wasn't serious.
Source? Or are you exempt?
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The fact is, almost no-one wants this near them, but no-one wants to pay bills, or go to work either. These are people that need this service and it's not just sticking homeless in a shack together, it is trying to get these people the help they need so they aren't homeless. As was pointed out by a sage purveyor of pies, if you put ANYTHING else in the place of the word "homeless" or "mentally ill" you would be billed as racist, sexist, etc. Imagine these headlines:
*Black Hi-Rise to be built near White City.
*Gay Condominiums to be built at straight intersection of Admiral and Yale.
*Muslim Motel makes waves in midtown.
So what does that say about the people who are working so hard to clear the YMCA and its residents out of downtown?
So now we're bashing the fire code?
Who wrote the fire code?
The oligarchs.
And "fire" starts "f," as in F&M Bank.
And the Arkansas river has banks.
So, it's all a conspiracy. And even if it's not, let's just say it is.
Well, sort of.
Despite some ridiculing references to the Banana Republic of Tulsa, and the ruling Oligarch Families,
The Lorton's are principal shareholders of F&M Bank.
They are also charter members of the local Dozen Ruling Oligarch Families.
The Tulsa Fire Chief is carrying the water for the national Fire Protection Industry's efforts to find at least one gullible city to adopt their expansionist fire code, which requires ruinously expensive fire SUPPRESSION retrofits to old, existing high rise buildings.
If their greedy goals are realized in the Banana Republic of Tulsa, then local fire chiefs around the country will use the City of Tulsa's revised Fire Code as a SEGUE to demand changes in local fire codes in hundreds of cities nationwide.
Resulting in $BILLIONS flowing into the pockets of the national FSSA Fire Protection Industry: Johnson Controls, ADT, 3-M, Grinnell, etc., will get to line their pockets for decades to come.
See, ALWAYS Follow the Money.....
Tulsa seems to be the only city to have swallowed hook, line and sinker the bunk about making older high rise building safer.
and, a happy corollary effect of the new Tulsa fire code will cause the obsolescence of old, downtown high-rises, including the ubiquitous YMCA.
Y---M-C-A.
Y---M-C-A.
Name a single fatality in a downtown Tulsa high rise due to a fire in the last 40 years?
Anyone??
Answer: None.
What will the Tulsa city leaders swallow next:
TulsaMetroChamberPots sponsored plan for a NON-STOP air service for a start-up Two Plane Regional Jet Airline?
With only $40 million in our tax dollars for their capital, instead of private capital!
P.S. United Airlines already flies non-stop daily from Tulsa to L.A.X.
and,
Continental Airlines flies non-stop daily from Tulsa to Newark Int'l Airport.
How about a new downtown Driller Stadium instead, to line the pockets of the Rooney Looney Tune Oligarchia Familia vis-a-vis Manhattan Construction Co.??
[}:)]
Bear....better tone it down or you'll have Vatican City on your tail.[:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
P.S. United Airlines already flies non-stop daily from Tulsa to L.A.X.
no they dont. they fly from OKC to LAX. expressjet flies to ontario until Sept 1st. There hasnt been a direct flight to LAX since American in 2002 or so.
Bear needs to go to the woods because he is full of s%#t.
The fire marshall want buildings to be safe. It is not a conspiracy from the "suppression industry".
Doctors don't work for the drug companies, they want to heal. Preachers don't work for Bible distributors, they want to spread the word of God. As hard as it is for you to believe, the Public Works department doesn't repair roads to be in cahoots with the asphalt industry, they want good roads.
You really need to find some other focus in life besides making up conspiracy theories. You have become a laughingstock of a poster.
So, you're putting FB in with the devils are you![:O][:P]
"Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?"
B. Dylan (Brady 8-27-08)
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
You really need to find some other focus in life besides making up conspiracy theories. You have become a laughingstock of a poster.
well it that case you need to scoot over and make room.[}:)]
Thank you inteller. It is my goal to get people to laugh, especially on here.
I believe Friendly Bear's goal is to make people distrust each other.
What would you describe your goal on this forum to be?
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
P.S. United Airlines already flies non-stop daily from Tulsa to L.A.X.
no they dont. they fly from OKC to LAX. expressjet flies to ontario until Sept 1st. There hasnt been a direct flight to LAX since American in 2002 or so.
http://www.tulsaairports.com/index.cfm?id=53
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
P.S. United Airlines already flies non-stop daily from Tulsa to L.A.X.
no they dont. they fly from OKC to LAX. expressjet flies to ontario until Sept 1st. There hasnt been a direct flight to LAX since American in 2002 or so.
http://www.tulsaairports.com/index.cfm?id=53
now try booking a flight and see just how many non stops United has to LAX, I saw none.
quote:
Originally posted by Juan Mad Okie
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
P.S. United Airlines already flies non-stop daily from Tulsa to L.A.X.
no they dont. they fly from OKC to LAX. expressjet flies to ontario until Sept 1st. There hasnt been a direct flight to LAX since American in 2002 or so.
http://www.tulsaairports.com/index.cfm?id=53
now try booking a flight and see just how many non stops United has to LAX, I saw none.
hmmm. I hope they aren't wasting too much money on the billboards then. Maybe it's coming soon?
It's united airlines flight 6097
http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByFlight.do?&id=135022972&airlineCode=UA&flightNumber=6097
How did this thread go from housing for the poor to jetsetting to the coast for the rich?
Interesting, this is what I get when I checked UAL's web site with their default date:
http://travel.united.com/ube/core/us/compactSearch.do?waitingPageFlag=true
Checking a departure of tomorrow and return of Friday, it finally came up:
http://travel.united.com/ube/shopInput.do?waitingPageFlag=true
non-stop both ways.
Harumph.
Well the title is "Homeless Hi-Rise" and neither of those are accurate either...
A high rise is 75 feet to 491 feet in height and this building looks to be only about 65 to 70.
Housing would stop them from being homeless.
It is also not at Admiral and Yale because that would be in the middle of an intersection.
Technically, you are correct, sir.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Well the title is "Homeless Hi-Rise" and neither of those are accurate either...
Whadya think Grizz? Time for the horse?
(http://images.mccoveychronicles.com/images/admin/BeatDeadHorse.gif)
That never gets old.
I mean really, reading back on this thread is like reading this:
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fail-owned-geography-fail2.jpg)
Do we come to the conclusion then that Councilor Eagleton was incorrect when he yelled at the citizens about turning their back on the homeless.
We actually are getting a half-way house (apartment complex) for the mentally challenged. excluding RM of course.
Each APARTMENT will have it's own bathroom and kitchen because it would need different zoning if they provided food for the residents?
I'm sure there are many more twist than this and maybe I'm confussed too...
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
How did this thread go from housing for the poor to jetsetting to the coast for the rich?
was just wondering the same???
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Do we come to the conclusion then that Councilor Eagleton was incorrect when he yelled at the citizens about turning their back on the homeless.
We actually are getting a half-way house (apartment complex) for the mentally challenged. excluding RM of course.
Each APARTMENT will have it's own bathroom and kitchen because it would need different zoning if they provided food for the residents?
I'm sure there are many more twist than this and maybe I'm confussed too...
No, that is not the conclusion or the consensus. Yes, you are confused.
Conan, I think the horse likes it. He's faking it because he's into S/M. Wears leathers too.[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Do we come to the conclusion then that Councilor Eagleton was incorrect when he yelled at the citizens about turning their back on the homeless.
We actually are getting a half-way house (apartment complex) for the mentally challenged. excluding RM of course.
Each APARTMENT will have it's own bathroom and kitchen because it would need different zoning if they provided food for the residents?
I'm sure there are many more twist than this and maybe I'm confussed too...
No, that is not the conclusion or the consensus. Yes, you are confused.
Conan, I think the horse likes it. He's faking it because he's into S/M. Wears leathers too.[;)]
Then what was Eagleton eluding to?
This apartment is not going to take any current homeless person off the street in Tulsa. In fact it will not be big enough to take care of everyone currently staying at the Y. In fact it will probably not even accept some of the current residence , as they will not qualify for this new "apartment" . What does that say?
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Do we come to the conclusion then that Councilor Eagleton was incorrect when he yelled at the citizens about turning their back on the homeless.
We actually are getting a half-way house (apartment complex) for the mentally challenged. excluding RM of course.
Each APARTMENT will have it's own bathroom and kitchen because it would need different zoning if they provided food for the residents?
I'm sure there are many more twist than this and maybe I'm confussed too...
No, that is not the conclusion or the consensus. Yes, you are confused.
Conan, I think the horse likes it. He's faking it because he's into S/M. Wears leathers too.[;)]
Then what was Eagleton eluding to?
This apartment is not going to take any current homeless person off the street in Tulsa. In fact it will not be big enough to take care of everyone currently staying at the Y. In fact it will probably not even accept some of the current residence , as they will not qualify for this new "apartment" . What does that say?
You seem to have a handle on it, connect the dots, as they say.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Do we come to the conclusion then that Councilor Eagleton was incorrect when he yelled at the citizens about turning their back on the homeless.
We actually are getting a half-way house (apartment complex) for the mentally challenged. excluding RM of course.
Each APARTMENT will have it's own bathroom and kitchen because it would need different zoning if they provided food for the residents?
I'm sure there are many more twist than this and maybe I'm confussed too...
No, that is not the conclusion or the consensus. Yes, you are confused.
Conan, I think the horse likes it. He's faking it because he's into S/M. Wears leathers too.[;)]
Then what was Eagleton eluding to?
This apartment is not going to take any current homeless person off the street in Tulsa. In fact it will not be big enough to take care of everyone currently staying at the Y. In fact it will probably not even accept some of the current residence , as they will not qualify for this new "apartment" . What does that say?
Ask Eagleton. I don't presume to know what's in his mind or what he said.
I have a problem with a neighborhood that is so fiercely adamant against alleged incursions on their edges by this group but didn't bother to read legal notices or keep up with their own councilor's activities. (YOU ELECTED HIM! WE WANTED BARNES!) Where was your homeowners association? Planning block parties?
There was no zoning change required and these folks followed all the applicable laws for notice that have been in place for decades. They didn't need council approval except for the grant involved. They got no special treatment by government. Yet you whine like you've been abused. You remind me of a past counselor, Anita Falling I believe, that couldn't read a city budget even though she was college educated. She needed special treatment because it was all just too complicated. Other councillors had been figuring them out for years.
The issues of whether or not the Y should be used or torn down, whether its residents are homeless, mental, recovering or whatever is not really your business. These are decisions that the organization answers for themselves and their donors. Separate issues. What they did was legal and common. Just because you didn't know about it is no defense. But because you folks threaten, yell, whine and get TV time people have to pass resolutions and cover their butts.
Life is tough. Buck up and defend your neighborhood by keeping informed and voting for people who will address your interests.
I am minded of what Apostle Paul once said
1Corinthians 11:22
quote:
What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
and what the prophet once said
Isaiah 5:7
quote:
....and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. (v.8) Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
... for the mentally challenged. excluding RM of course.
You have no clue to how true that statement is...
WATERBOY WIN!
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
WATERBOY WIN!
Agreed, he only missed one vital point: The residents do pay and will pay rent. If you pay rent you are not homeless in my book.
Waterboy for mayor!
I am humbled. I am also underemployed. I'd take the job and unlike the mayor, I'd keep the pay.[;)]
And yet many with no horse find it ok to critic those who have a horse in the issue. Why are you complaining about others complaining.
There sure is alot of red backs in this club[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Bear....better tone it down or you'll have Vatican City on your tail.[:D]
What's the Ambassador going to do, ask his Holiness to Excommunicate me??
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
And yet many with no horse find it ok to critic those who have a horse in the issue. Why are you complaining about others complaining.
There sure is alot of red backs in this club[:X]
I would be glad to let you have the last word but I don't understand it. Redback?
And yes, we all have a horse in this race. If the rules are changed because your neighborhood dropped the ball then we're all affected.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Bear needs to go to the woods because he is full of s%#t.
The fire marshall want buildings to be safe. It is not a conspiracy from the "suppression industry".
Doctors don't work for the drug companies, they want to heal. Preachers don't work for Bible distributors, they want to spread the word of God. As hard as it is for you to believe, the Public Works department doesn't repair roads to be in cahoots with the asphalt industry, they want good roads.
You really need to find some other focus in life besides making up conspiracy theories. You have become a laughingstock of a poster.
Can you REALLY be so naive?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
And yet many with no horse find it ok to critic those who have a horse in the issue. Why are you complaining about others complaining.
There sure is alot of red backs in this club[:X]
I would be glad to let you have the last word but I don't understand it. Redback?
And yes, we all have a horse in this race. If the rules are changed because your neighborhood dropped the ball then we're all affected.
You should quit assuming , I don't live in that neighborhood actually [:D]
Then why are you complaining about others complaining about complaining? And what the heck is a redback?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Then why are you complaining about others complaining about complaining? And what the heck is a redback?
Just a guess... But
"redback" may be a backwood confederate style insinuation that there are many fakes on this board.
Redback definition? (//%22http://www.dallashistory.org/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=4851%22)
But most of the folks on this board know how to read a newspaper.
[;)]
Ahhh. Texas. 'splains it all.
The scandal ripens...
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=9ba3662a-1ba1-4f05-a094-b5abc09481ef
Shock and outrage in one Tulsa neighborhood tonight, after new details emerge about the site of a proposed low-income apartment complex. FOX 23 News has learned the Tulsa Housing Authority, which would operate the facility, may have overpaid for the land by more than a half-million dollars.
quote:
Originally posted by patric
The scandal ripens...
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=9ba3662a-1ba1-4f05-a094-b5abc09481ef
Shock and outrage in one Tulsa neighborhood tonight, after new details emerge about the site of a proposed low-income apartment complex. FOX 23 News has learned the Tulsa Housing Authority, which would operate the facility, may have overpaid for the land by more than a half-million dollars.
Yeah.... this could turn out to be good news for the people in that neighborhood...!
That land "as appraised" is only worth 30 cents on the dollar.........get me that appraisers name!
That makes my house and land worth what?
Boy we will show them huh?
Fox News.........you gotta Love Rupert.
Property sold for higher than the tax value?
SAY IT AIN'T SO!
Again, the deal is done with donations. If someone got a piece from Kaiser, more power to him.
If its tax value then the story is a fraud.
Even if it is not, price is determined by perceived value of the buyer. IOW, the property is worth what someone will pay for it. The appraisal is not for a loan as the money is donated. Its actually, irrelevant what the appraisal says unless its public money buying it.
September 13 2008
Aloha and Lawzee
Ah Flip they might actually build the thing
are the city fathers crazy I have nothing against helping the homeless but I live around the Haskel & Lewis pl area & I've been broken into four times in the last six years isn't this part of town ghettofied enough don't we have enough crime and problems please do not suggest the old whittier School site its way to close to home
I would like to think that Tulsa could find a better & less intrusive location to build the place
Aloha and Lawzee
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
If its tax value then the story is a fraud.
Even if it is not, price is determined by perceived value of the buyer. IOW, the property is worth what someone will pay for it. The appraisal is not for a loan as the money is donated. Its actually, irrelevant what the appraisal says unless its public money buying it.
It is public money. You can't distinguish private/public money on a public project. It's a pool, donated to the authority for a project, not for land purchased specifically, unless the land was purchased, then donated.
Even more interesting would be from whom they purchased this land. Another LLC perhaps? How many times did this land change hands in the last two years?
I'd even question TDA's ability to establish any LLC for any reason. That's not what Public Trusts do, or are supposed to anyway.
And, they've sorta eliminated the blind purchase to save money on land costs option.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
If its tax value then the story is a fraud.
Even if it is not, price is determined by perceived value of the buyer. IOW, the property is worth what someone will pay for it. The appraisal is not for a loan as the money is donated. Its actually, irrelevant what the appraisal says unless its public money buying it.
It is public money. You can't distinguish private/public money on a public project. It's a pool, donated to the authority for a project, not for land purchased specifically, unless the land was purchased, then donated.
Even more interesting would be from whom they purchased this land. Another LLC perhaps? How many times did this land change hands in the last two years?
I'd even question TDA's ability to establish any LLC for any reason. That's not what Public Trusts do, or are supposed to anyway.
And, they've sorta eliminated the blind purchase to save money on land costs option.
Hey, if its determined this property has been daisy chained to increase a private return,and cost the public more because of it, then I'll be as incensed as anyone else. However, the reasons the neighborhood is using to oppose the development are not very persuasive.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
If its tax value then the story is a fraud.
Even if it is not, price is determined by perceived value of the buyer. IOW, the property is worth what someone will pay for it. The appraisal is not for a loan as the money is donated. Its actually, irrelevant what the appraisal says unless its public money buying it.
It is public money. You can't distinguish private/public money on a public project. It's a pool, donated to the authority for a project, not for land purchased specifically, unless the land was purchased, then donated.
Even more interesting would be from whom they purchased this land. Another LLC perhaps? How many times did this land change hands in the last two years?
I'd even question TDA's ability to establish any LLC for any reason. That's not what Public Trusts do, or are supposed to anyway.
And, they've sorta eliminated the blind purchase to save money on land costs option.
Hey, if its determined this property has been daisy chained to increase a private return,and cost the public more because of it, then I'll be as incensed as anyone else. However, the reasons the neighborhood is using to oppose the development are not very persuasive.
I think it more the methodology used to cram it down their throats, like much of the stuff I complain about on this forum. It's often not what's being done, as how. But, in this case, it's an unabashed attempt to get it done before being noticed and intentional cloaked agendas.
Yeah, I'd be p.o.'d. Am, just not directly affected. The argument that it's 'the same as' other similar operations around town is bogus, however. There is no similar operation of that scale, unless you go back downtown with the Y.
The neighborhood seemed ammenable to a scaled down version. I don't think opposition is opposed to having it at all.
Again, the steam comes from the process.
Sorry, still not that worked up over a non-homeless non-hi-rise built with not-public funds that is the 4th built in the city that is somehow upsetting some people who aren't even really nearby.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sorry, still not that worked up over a non-homeless non-hi-rise built with not-public funds that is the 4th built in the city that is somehow upsetting some people who aren't even really nearby.
Guess you missed the vote by the Council on the $3 (or was it $4) million in State funding for this project.
Scale is the issue, 74-units. None that big anywhere outside of downtown, or the Y.
If there is, name it, with address please.
Actually there will be homeless people staying there, and thats what irks me. You heard me originally constantly arguing that it was to be a "Homeless First" program facility. Which is what they said it would be and were trying to pass it off as. Then come to find out thats only partly true. A good number of the units will be for "over night" type stays and people not paying any rent. Either the news had it all wrong at first, or the people pushing for this lied. I don't like being lied to.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sorry, still not that worked up over a non-homeless non-hi-rise built with not-public funds that is the 4th built in the city that is somehow upsetting some people who aren't even really nearby.
Guess you missed the vote by the Council on the $3 (or was it $4) million in State funding for this project.
Scale is the issue, 74-units. None that big anywhere outside of downtown, or the Y.
If there is, name it, with address please.
74 units is big?
I can name 5 within 5 miles of my house and I live nowhere near downtown.
And as far as homeless/short term. I was told by someone who would be working with the people in this facility that it will charge rent.
Unless someone reforms the mental health system in oklahoma, I say we should build 12 of them. If they have to build the other 11 by my house so I don't have to listen to everyone whine, then I'm fine with it.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sorry, still not that worked up over a non-homeless non-hi-rise built with not-public funds that is the 4th built in the city that is somehow upsetting some people who aren't even really nearby.
Guess you missed the vote by the Council on the $3 (or was it $4) million in State funding for this project.
Scale is the issue, 74-units. None that big anywhere outside of downtown, or the Y.
If there is, name it, with address please.
74 units is big?
I can name 5 within 5 miles of my house and I live nowhere near downtown.
And as far as homeless/short term. I was told by someone who would be working with the people in this facility that it will charge rent.
Unless someone reforms the mental health system in oklahoma, I say we should build 12 of them. If they have to build the other 11 by my house so I don't have to listen to everyone whine, then I'm fine with it.
Let's start with one. Name one with the address.
Quail Creek Villa, Woodland Terrace. Both are single buildings with over 100 units.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Quail Creek Villa, Woodland Terrace. Both are single buildings with over 100 units.
Quail Creek Villa
7334 South Memorial Drive
and
Woodland Terrace Retirement Community
9524 East 71st South
are RETIREMENT FACILITIES with assisted care options/capabilities for portions of their units.
...any homeless relocation/drug intervention/mental caseload facilities in the City, especially of this scale?
Nope, didn't think so.
You said that number of units was unheard of and I pointed out it's size was not large.
You want mental patients?
Hewgley Terrace
Lafortune Tower
etc.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sorry, still not that worked up over a non-homeless non-hi-rise built with not-public funds that is the 4th built in the city that is somehow upsetting some people who aren't even really nearby.
Guess you missed the vote by the Council on the $3 (or was it $4) million in State funding for this project.
Scale is the issue, 74-units. None that big anywhere outside of downtown, or the Y.
If there is, name it, with address please.
74 units is big?
I can name 5 within 5 miles of my house and I live nowhere near downtown.
And as far as homeless/short term. I was told by someone who would be working with the people in this facility that it will charge rent.
Unless someone reforms the mental health system in oklahoma, I say we should build 12 of them. If they have to build the other 11 by my house so I don't have to listen to everyone whine, then I'm fine with it.
It will charge rent,,, but in the fine print,,, to only some of the units.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
You said that number of units was unheard of and I pointed out it's size was not large.
You want mental patients?
Hewgley Terrace
Lafortune Tower
etc.
Hewgley Terrace
420 South Lawton Ave (INSIDE IDL)
Just west of the State of Oklahoma Bldg.
Lafortune Tower
1725 Southwest Blvd
immediately across the river west from IDL
Don't know much about Hewgley Terrace, but Lafortune Tower is your basic Section 8 housing, not a mental/homeless/drug rehab facility.
Maybe we should find out who is trying to inflate the construction costs before we seriously consider building it...
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Maybe we should find out who is trying to inflate the construction costs before we seriously consider building it...
Friendly Bear must be off-line this afternoon, I will answer in his absence:
The Rooney & Flint familes, The Lortons, and Kaiser. Who else?
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Maybe we should find out who is trying to inflate the construction costs before we seriously consider building it...
Hadn't begun to look at costs (other than the paying of around $800K for the land appraised at $225K six months later as reported by FOX News yesterday (//%22http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=9ba3662a-1ba1-4f05-a094-b5abc09481ef%22)). But, if one takes only the $4 Million State contribution (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080807_1__Moret02461%22), that comes to about $53,000 per unit. I'd suspect that of being about the average cost of a two-bedroom apartment in the commercial apartment sector.
How much were the donors contributing to this project?
Also, what is this $2 Million also stated to be for this project? (//%22http://www.endlongtermhomelessness.org/press_center/funding_gives_boost_homeless.aspx%22)