Suffering from Insomnia again, I've been Watching the Eminence Grise/ Prince of Darkness/ Rainmaker Long-Time City of Tulsa Attorney Charles Norman on TGOV explain how the City of Tulsa formed a Title 60 "Public Trust" so that they could build the Tulsa Performing Arts Center back in 1973.
Now, I freely admit that back in 1973 I was much more interested in little Ms. Mary Jane Rottencrotch than in City of Tulsa's Title 60 Public Trust's 30% cost overruns on the PAC.
Much.
It's all a matter of priorities, you know.
And oh, by the way, these SO HANDY Title 60 Public Trusts let the Oligarch Familias CIRCUMVENT competitive bidding so that Flintco could be awarded a NO BID contract for a $14 million PAC Construction plan to to build a $19 million PAC - OVERRUNS included.
It suddenly came to mind, in an virtual Epiphany, when Mayor Chatty Kathy's facile and false mouthpieces informed us that the Driller Stadium will be also governed by a Title 60 Public Trust.
Oh, and did I mention that just coincidentally Manhattan Construction Company a.k.a. Rooney Oligarch Familia will be awarded a NO-BID contract to construct the $30 million (uh, really I mean $60 million) new Driller stadium?
This current episode in our polis brought a certain, Je ne sais quois:
Deja Vu?
All over again.
History Repeats Itself.
Is it the Rooneys or the Flints that co-own the Caribbean Island with the Lorton's???
I never seem to remember which Oligarcha Familia shares that certain Caribbean Island with the Lorton's....
Sorry.
I haven't been invited on the Lorton's 180' Yacht. And, Expect I won't.
Or our High-Maintenance Mayor Chatty Kathy's Lear Jet either.
But, brother, we're paying for them.
In Spades.
P.S. The ruling Oligarch Families finally figured out how to LITERALLY bury the 1921 Greenwood Race Riot.
Build a Baseball Stadium ON IT.
To Help the Healing.
Of Course.
They are, afterall, allowing Negroes to actually play baseball in the new stadium.....
Remember what the famous Negro League pitcher Satchel Page advised:
Never look back; someone may be gaining on you.
God Bless You, Satchel!
Smile down on us from Heaven.
We NEED a smile.
For encouragement. You understood Oppression.........
[:O]
How many times are you going to edit your post?
(http://storyengineer.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/demotivatormar07.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
How many times are you going to edit your post?
(http://storyengineer.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/demotivatormar07.jpg)
When it is Perfect.......
[:I]
I think the PAC is very nice. So there! [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Suffering from Insomnia again, I've been Watching the Eminence Grise/ Prince of Darkness/ Rainmaker Long-Time City of Tulsa Attorney Charles Norman on TGOV explain how the City of Tulsa formed a Title 60 "Public Trust" so that they could build the Tulsa Performing Arts Center back in 1973.
Now, I freely admit that back in 1973 I was much more interested in little Ms. Mary Jane Rottencrotch than in City of Tulsa's Title 60 Public Trust's 30% cost overruns on the PAC.
Much.
It's all a matter of priorities, you know.
And oh, by the way, these SO HANDY Title 60 Public Trusts let the Oligarch Familias CIRCUMVENT competitive bidding so that Flintco could be awarded a NO BID contract for a $14 million PAC Construction plan to to build a $19 million PAC - OVERRUNS included.
It suddenly came to mind, in an virtual Epiphany, when Mayor Chatty Kathy's facile and false mouthpieces informed us that the Driller Stadium will be also governed by a Title 60 Public Trust.
Oh, and did I mention that just coincidentally Manhattan Construction Company a.k.a. Rooney Oligarch Familia will be awarded a NO-BID contract to construct the $30 million (uh, really I mean $60 million) new Driller stadium?
This current episode in our polis brought a certain, Je ne sais quois:
Deja Vu?
All over again.
History Repeats Itself.
Is it the Rooneys or the Flints that co-own the Caribbean Island with the Lorton's???
I never seem to remember which Oligarcha Familia shares that certain Caribbean Island with the Lorton's....
Sorry.
I haven't been invited on the Lorton's 180' Yacht. And, Expect I won't.
Or our High-Maintenance Mayor Chatty Kathy's Lear Jet either.
But, brother, we're paying for them.
In Spades.
P.S. The ruling Oligarch Families finally figured out how to LITERALLY bury the 1921 Greenwood Race Riot.
Build a Baseball Stadium ON IT.
To Help the Healing.
Of Course.
They are, afterall, allowing Negroes to actually play baseball in the new stadium.....
Remember what the famous Negro League pitcher Satchel Page advised:
Never look back; someone may be gaining on you.
God Bless You, Satchel!
Smile down on us from Heaven.
We NEED a smile.
For encouragement. You understood Oppression.........
[:O]
Anyone who thinks Charles Norman is anything less than a gentleman and outstanding citizen doesn't know him. I don't care if you agree with him or not.
I've been to both the Brady and to the PAC.
I, for one, am very glad they built PAC. It's an incredibly good facility. And I've been in a lot of them across the Midwest and Mid-South.
The Brady is OK, but is hopelessly obsolete for "Phantom of the Opera" and other big, traveling productions that people want.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I've been to both the Brady and to the PAC.
I, for one, am very glad they built PAC. It's an incredibly good facility. And I've been in a lot of them across the Midwest and Mid-South.
The Brady is OK, but is hopelessly obsolete for "Phantom of the Opera" and other big, traveling productions that people want.
The PAC is a very fine venue for Small to Medium sized events.
My whole point is really how our local ruling families ESCHEW competitive bidding when it really counts.
Someone conveniently arranged the state law so that:
a) Engineering/Architectural contracts are NOT subject to either competitive bidding, or for that matter PRICE cannot even be the basis of the selection.
and,
b) Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trusts are NOT subject to the state's competitive bidding laws.
And, Tulsa city and county governments just LOVE Title 60 Public Trusts.
Does anyone even know how many of these Public Trusts are running our lives, and picking our pockets because they sole-source their major projects to companies controlled by the ruling Oligarch Families, and their connected cronies?
TMUA?
TARE?
Tulsa County Jail Authority?
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority?
BOK Arena Authority?
Driller Stadium Authority? NO-BID contract to the Rooney Family already announced ONE DAY after the City Council approved the $60 million Dirty Driller Deal.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Suffering from Insomnia again, I've been Watching the Eminence Grise/ Prince of Darkness/ Rainmaker Long-Time City of Tulsa Attorney Charles Norman on TGOV explain how the City of Tulsa formed a Title 60 "Public Trust" so that they could build the Tulsa Performing Arts Center back in 1973.
Now, I freely admit that back in 1973 I was much more interested in little Ms. Mary Jane Rottencrotch than in City of Tulsa's Title 60 Public Trust's 30% cost overruns on the PAC.
Much.
It's all a matter of priorities, you know.
And oh, by the way, these SO HANDY Title 60 Public Trusts let the Oligarch Familias CIRCUMVENT competitive bidding so that Flintco could be awarded a NO BID contract for a $14 million PAC Construction plan to to build a $19 million PAC - OVERRUNS included.
It suddenly came to mind, in an virtual Epiphany, when Mayor Chatty Kathy's facile and false mouthpieces informed us that the Driller Stadium will be also governed by a Title 60 Public Trust.
Oh, and did I mention that just coincidentally Manhattan Construction Company a.k.a. Rooney Oligarch Familia will be awarded a NO-BID contract to construct the $30 million (uh, really I mean $60 million) new Driller stadium?
This current episode in our polis brought a certain, Je ne sais quois:
Deja Vu?
All over again.
History Repeats Itself.
Is it the Rooneys or the Flints that co-own the Caribbean Island with the Lorton's???
I never seem to remember which Oligarcha Familia shares that certain Caribbean Island with the Lorton's....
Sorry.
I haven't been invited on the Lorton's 180' Yacht. And, Expect I won't.
Or our High-Maintenance Mayor Chatty Kathy's Lear Jet either.
But, brother, we're paying for them.
In Spades.
P.S. The ruling Oligarch Families finally figured out how to LITERALLY bury the 1921 Greenwood Race Riot.
Build a Baseball Stadium ON IT.
To Help the Healing.
Of Course.
They are, afterall, allowing Negroes to actually play baseball in the new stadium.....
Remember what the famous Negro League pitcher Satchel Page advised:
Never look back; someone may be gaining on you.
God Bless You, Satchel!
Smile down on us from Heaven.
We NEED a smile.
For encouragement. You understood Oppression.........
[:O]
Anyone who thinks Charles Norman is anything less than a gentleman and outstanding citizen doesn't know him. I don't care if you agree with him or not.
Did he help engineer the largest Tax burden-shifting ever foisted on Tulsa citizens?
How?
Let's speculate, shall we?
Back in the 1960's, after a certain connected local Oligarch family had bought up most of rural south Tulsa, someone conveniently got the Special Assessment process paid by property owners eliminated.
These special assessments funded road-widening, and were paid by property owners adjacent and contiguous to the road being widened.
And, that Special Assessment was projected to cut into the juicy profit margins of that certain connected local family.
So, this road widening source disappeared, South Tulsa grew enormously, and in a mere decade and one-half, our ruined farm-to-market south Tulsa roads were totally gridlocked.
According to plan, by 1980, the Tulsa voters were sufficiently softened up enough driving on bad narrow roads to approve the Itty Bitty Third Penny Sales Tax.
Earmarked for Road Widening, of course.
That itty bitty third penny sales tax has picked the pockets of Tulsans for over $1.3 billion since its inception.
But, remember, it's a TEMPORARY Tax.
And, it's paid by everyone.
Even a tiny bit paid personally by the local ruling family that may have engineered this Billion dollar tax avoidance scheme.
They want to share out PAIN.
And, just who was this family's paid Paladin to accomplish the foregoing?
Just guess...
[}:)]
quote:
The PAC is a very fine venue for Small to Medium sized events.
Just like the professional theater venues in Dallas? The Dallas PAC has a main theater that seats 2,200.
Louise M. Davies Symphony Hall, home of the San Francisco symphony 2,600.
Denver Center for Performing Arts - 2,634
Meyerhoff Symphony Hall, Baltimore's Symphony Hall - 2,400
Kansas City PAC - 1,700
Las Vegas PAC - 1,832
New Mexico PAC (Albuquerque) - 1,985
Whichita PAC - 2,025
New York Philharmonic which resides in Avery Fisher Hall at Lincoln Center – 2,738.
Juliard's Sharp Theater - 983
Orchestra Hall, Chicago's PAC - 2,500
Carnegie Hall - 2,800
For that matter lets go national!
Beijing PAC - 2,017 (built 2007)
Tokyo Opera House - 1,632
National Theatre of Korea (Seoul PAC) - 1,563
Vienna Opera House - 1,840
Paris National Theater - 1,905
Paris Opera House - 2,200
Berlin Philharmonic - 2,440
Parco della Musica (Rome) - 2,756
Tulsa seats 2,365.
I'd say it is adequate for most facilities of it's nature. Either that or everyone else is wrong. Certainly we don't measure of for grandeur (our entry way is a supreme disappointment and overall the facility is utilitarian) but for size and facility it is more than merely adequate.
Wow!
FB, you are looking in the wrong place.
If it's integrity you seek, government projects will always disappoint. You will find ego, politics, poor estimating, back-scratching, and mistruth through omission.
You have to sit back and chuckle because you know that $10 million actually means $18 million. It's just the game. It's ancient, and unchanging.
I don't know why you badmouth Charles Norman. He actually brings integrity to the game.
Charlie Norman was successful.
FB hates success.
It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.
FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.
Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.
They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.
No local government trying to develop the city.
No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.
Why can't FB go home to Belarus?
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.
He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Charlie Norman was successful.
FB hates success.
It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.
FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.
Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.
They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.
No local government trying to develop the city.
No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.
Why can't FB go home to Belarus?
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.
I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.
I'm still waiting.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.
He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.
Fine. But DID he or did he NOT engineer the elimination of the city street funding mechanism called Special Assessments?
My understanding to Mr. Norman's accumulation of wealth is that he did write the city zoning and building permitting.
As a result, isn't the process so convoluted, confusing, and opaque to a person wanting to build ANYTHING, they need the services of a skilled Land Attorney?
And, Mr. Norman is the Go-To man for that process, isn't he?.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.
He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.
My recollection is that Charles Norman left his job as the City Attorney back in the 1960's.
I believe the Charter Change, which brought about our current Mayor-Council form of city government occurred in about 1990, and was a settlement of the contemporaneous lawsuit filed on behalf of African Americans who believed that the Commission form of government had disenfranchised them.
As a result of the change, 1-2 African Americans have been city councilors EVERY year since then, representing Council Districts with significant African American populations.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Charlie Norman was successful.
FB hates success.
It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.
FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.
Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.
They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.
No local government trying to develop the city.
No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.
Why can't FB go home to Belarus?
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.
I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.
I'm still waiting.
Time spent taking down Friendly Bear is time God doesn't take away from you; kind of like fishing.
I'm not sure what fair deal the government didn't give you. Would love to know -- it would beat reading your nonsensical rants.
You just sound bitter.
You continually attack people of the utmost integrity.
Which probably means you have none.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.
He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.
My recollection is that Charles Norman left his job as the City Attorney back in the 1960's.
I believe the Charter Change, which brought about our current Mayor-Council form of city government occurred in about 1990, and was a settlement of the contemporaneous lawsuit filed on behalf of African Americans who believed that the Commission form of government had disenfranchised them.
As a result of the change, 1-2 African Americans have been city councilors EVERY year since then, representing Council Districts with significant African American populations.
Hey F Buddy....News. The lawsuit was filed elsewhere. Not here in river city. Just a pre-emptive stop gap to keep the city judgement proof. Don't interject a black white thing. Many municipalities across the country were under that representation spell. I believe the court system said the constitution does not deal with municipal issues of representation. CF can check my statement because it's based on sketchy memory banks (not to be confused with teetering banks).
Yes. Norman decided to go out into private practice several years after developing our wonderful code no doubt being the best versed with the most "ins" at various departments. But even when advising clients drew the line between acceptable and over reaching, right from wrong. A lawyer's lawyer. He just left out what the government's duties were to enforce in the code book. Instead, left the door open for lack of oversight. Hence, public diswerks. He also failed to keep other government agents from badly ammending the code over the years with new ordinances and careless stewards of our city as growth occured.
This town should be run like a lockdown. Well, kinda sorta already is.....
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.
He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.
My recollection is that Charles Norman left his job as the City Attorney back in the 1960's.
I believe the Charter Change, which brought about our current Mayor-Council form of city government occurred in about 1990, and was a settlement of the contemporaneous lawsuit filed on behalf of African Americans who believed that the Commission form of government had disenfranchised them.
As a result of the change, 1-2 African Americans have been city councilors EVERY year since then, representing Council Districts with significant African American populations.
Hey F Buddy....News. The lawsuit was filed elsewhere. Not here in river city. Just a pre-emptive stop gap to keep the city judgement proof. Don't interject a black white thing. Many municipalities across the country were under that representation spell. I believe the court system said the constitution does not deal with municipal issues of representation. CF can check my statement because it's based on sketchy memory banks (not to be confused with teetering banks).
Yes. Norman decided to go out into private practice several years after developing our wonderful code no doubt being the best versed with the most "ins" at various departments. But even when advising clients drew the line between acceptable and over reaching, right from wrong. A lawyer's lawyer. He just left out what the government's duties were to enforce in the code book. Instead, left the door open for lack of oversight. Hence, public diswerks. He also failed to keep other government agents from badly ammending the code over the years with new ordinances and careless stewards of our city as growth occured.
This town should be run like a lockdown. Well, kinda sorta already is.....
A local attorney named Greg Bledsoe, who is also an occasionally poster on this Forum, was one of the plaintiff attorney's.
It was a local suit filed here locally by Mr. Bledsoe et al.
There may also have been other collateral suits in other cities around the U.S. that were litigating over the Commissioner form of local government.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Charlie Norman was successful.
FB hates success.
It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.
FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.
Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.
They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.
No local government trying to develop the city.
No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.
Why can't FB go home to Belarus?
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.
I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.
I'm still waiting.
Time spent taking down Friendly Bear is time God doesn't take away from you; kind of like fishing.
I'm not sure what fair deal the government didn't give you. Would love to know -- it would beat reading your nonsensical rants.
You just sound bitter.
You continually attack people of the utmost integrity.
Which probably means you have none.
[:O]
When you quit drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid, you might awake from your slumber and realize that we live in a Banana Republic of Tulsa.
Only a chimp or a chump would want to live in a Banana Republic.
Or a Connected Crony.
[:X]
Chimp here!
I will go with primate here. Btw, bannannas are one of the most nutritious foods you can eat. Very good for you. Plus if you eat one with a serving of milk, you get lots of protein, the amino acids in a bannanna can be combined by your body with the amino acids in the milk, thus enhancing the nutritional value of both. [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Charlie Norman was successful.
FB hates success.
It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.
FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.
Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.
They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.
No local government trying to develop the city.
No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.
Why can't FB go home to Belarus?
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.
I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.
I'm still waiting.
Time spent taking down Friendly Bear is time God doesn't take away from you; kind of like fishing.
I'm not sure what fair deal the government didn't give you. Would love to know -- it would beat reading your nonsensical rants.
You just sound bitter.
You continually attack people of the utmost integrity.
Which probably means you have none.
[:O]
When you quit drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid, you might awake from your slumber and realize that we live in a Banana Republic of Tulsa.
Only a chimp or a chump would want to live in a Banana Republic.
Or a Connected Crony.
[:X]
I don't think it's a Banana Republic at all.
We do have a couple of those stores.
I'm more of a J Crew guy myself.
And which are you -- a chimp or a chump or a crony? You continue to live here?
I'll get you that bus ticket. Where do you want to go? A city that doesn't invest in infrastructure? A city without a locally owned paper and locally owned billion dollar companies?
OK . . . Pampa, Texas, get ready for FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I will go with primate here. Btw, bannannas are one of the most nutritious foods you can eat. Very good for you. Plus if you eat one with a serving of milk, you get lots of protein, the amino acids in a bannanna can be combined by your body with the amino acids in the milk, thus enhancing the nutritional value of both. [:D]
Darn! I just like bananas because they taste good. Knowing they are good for me is too much.
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
Oh it sucks . . .
to be jealous of everyone . . .
no need to insult everyone . . .
but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
Oh it sucks . . .
to be jealous of everyone . . .
no need to insult everyone . . .
but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?
[:O]
I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman. His legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:
Nuclear engineering.
My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience and a Soul, rather than acquire the trappings of great wealth and power.
Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.
He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.
He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.
He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.
He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
Oh it sucks . . .
to be jealous of everyone . . .
no need to insult everyone . . .
but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?
[:O]
I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman. The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:
Nuclear engineering.
My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.
Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.
He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.
He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.
He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.
He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......
Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .
You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.
I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times. I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.
Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges. We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city. When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.
And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.
I didn't offer you anything, either. FB, I think you're losing it.
Look, quit it with the cheap insults.
Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not. And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.
But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.
I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
Oh it sucks . . .
to be jealous of everyone . . .
no need to insult everyone . . .
but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?
[:O]
I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman. The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:
Nuclear engineering.
My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.
Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.
He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.
He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.
He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.
He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......
Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .
You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.
I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times. I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.
Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges. We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city. When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.
And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.
I didn't offer you anything, either. FB, I think you're losing it.
Look, quit it with the cheap insults.
Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not. And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.
But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.
I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.
[:O]
If someone helped engineer the elimination of the Special Assessment, and by doing so shifted the tax burden over to the financial detriment of the vast majority of the citizens of Tulsa, and simultaneously eliminated the burden from the landowners/developers/builders to fatten their profit margins, then I think it is readily clear about the state of that person's conscience.
Note to Gold:
The Itty Bitty Third Penny, first enacted in 1980 to help catch up about 15 years of local road improvement underfunding, has picked the pockets of Tulsans of over $1.4 BILLION dollars.
Ouch!
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
Oh it sucks . . .
to be jealous of everyone . . .
no need to insult everyone . . .
but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?
[:O]
I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman. The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:
Nuclear engineering.
My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.
Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.
He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.
He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.
He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.
He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......
Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .
You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.
I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times. I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.
Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges. We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city. When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.
And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.
I didn't offer you anything, either. FB, I think you're losing it.
Look, quit it with the cheap insults.
Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not. And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.
But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.
I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.
[:O]
If someone helped engineer the elimination of the Special Assessment, and by doing so shifted the tax burden over to the financial detriment of the vast majority of the citizens of Tulsa, and simultaneously eliminated the burden from the landowners/developers/builders to fatten their profit margins, then I think it is readily clear about the state of that person's conscience.
Note to Gold:
The Itty Bitty Third Penny, first enacted in 1980 to help catch up about 15 years of local road improvement underfunding, has picked the pockets of Tulsans of over $1.4 BILLION dollars.
Ouch!
You don't like the policy. Great.
If it's so bad, move (I think you already did that).
Even if that's the case, there's no reason to call the guy out. You have no idea if he's a good guy or not. You just don't like the policy.
But, whoever scorned you long ago, or maybe just your Paul Tay-like need for attention, dictates that you always attack the person.
You sound confused today. First it was the hilarious bit about Lamson not wanting to compete with the bars downtown (even though he wants to move his team there), now this bit of confusion.
It's good for entertainment I guess, but not so much for serious political discussion.
Poor FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.
Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.
Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.
I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.
I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.
Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.
If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:
Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.
You can E-mail him and ask.
He might respond....
Oh it sucks . . .
to be jealous of everyone . . .
no need to insult everyone . . .
but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?
[:O]
I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman. The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:
Nuclear engineering.
My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.
Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.
He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.
He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.
He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.
He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......
Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .
You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.
I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times. I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.
Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges. We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city. When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.
And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.
I didn't offer you anything, either. FB, I think you're losing it.
Look, quit it with the cheap insults.
Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not. And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.
But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.
I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.
[:O]
If someone helped engineer the elimination of the Special Assessment, and by doing so shifted the tax burden over to the financial detriment of the vast majority of the citizens of Tulsa, and simultaneously eliminated the burden from the landowners/developers/builders to fatten their profit margins, then I think it is readily clear about the state of that person's conscience.
Note to Gold:
The Itty Bitty Third Penny, first enacted in 1980 to help catch up about 15 years of local road improvement underfunding, has picked the pockets of Tulsans of over $1.4 BILLION dollars.
Ouch!
You don't like the policy. Great.
If it's so bad, move (I think you already did that).
Even if that's the case, there's no reason to call the guy out. You have no idea if he's a good guy or not. You just don't like the policy.
But, whoever scorned you long ago, or maybe just your Paul Tay-like need for attention, dictates that you always attack the person.
You sound confused today. First it was the hilarious bit about Lamson not wanting to compete with the bars downtown (even though he want sto move his team there), now this bit of confusion.
It's good for entertainment I guess, but not so much for serious political discussion.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Again, I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED that serial, personal attacks against me, which contradict the Forum Rules of Deportment go unsanctioned, maybe even encouraged by the Forum Administrators.
Why or why?
How is that a personal attack?
I don't think you live here (you just miss badly on some stuff).
You say a lot of stuff that is totally baseless.
YOU attack good people that you clearly don't know.
Instead of saying that a certain judge or politician is on the plutocrats' payroll, how about just saying you disagree with their position?
If you just stuck to the issues rather than going Delgiorno at all times, maybe we could have a discussion.
I just think without the namedropping and bullying, you don't have much to offer.
Just stick to an issue. Any issue.
Quit it with the circular reasoning and tinfoil hat conspiracy tirade.
It is amusing to watch you just collapse around some basic questions, but not very productive -- then again, hopefully you quit it now that I'm doing the exact same thing to you that you do to good, hardworking public and private figures (though I'm starting to think by comparison, a lot of what I say is on the money about you).
You did skip down your list of message board tricks pretty quickly today.
I guess it's no fun to realize you're wrong.
[:X]
Methinks bear doth protesteth too much.
"Never argue with an idiot. He drags you down to his level and then beats you with experience."
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
How is that a personal attack?
I don't think you live here (you just miss badly on some stuff).
You say a lot of stuff that is totally baseless.
YOU attack good people that you clearly don't know.
Instead of saying that a certain judge or politician is on the plutocrats' payroll, how about just saying you disagree with their position?
If you just stuck to the issues rather than going Delgiorno at all times, maybe we could have a discussion.
I just think without the namedropping and bullying, you don't have much to offer.
Just stick to an issue. Any issue.
Quit it with the circular reasoning and tinfoil hat conspiracy tirade.
It is amusing to watch you just collapse around some basic questions, but not very productive -- then again, hopefully you quit it now that I'm doing the exact same thing to you that you do to good, hardworking public and private figures (though I'm starting to think by comparison, a lot of what I say is on the money about you).
You did skip down your list of message board tricks pretty quickly today.
I guess it's no fun to realize you're wrong.
[:X]
It's no fun interacting with a Petulant Child.
Who needed a spanking.
^^^- Now FB is talking to himself..
quote:
Originally posted by bokworker
^^^- Now FB is talking to himself..
Employees lunchbreak has been cancelled because Quarterly earnings were DOWN.....
However, compliance is VOLUNTARY.
Just click on the link to OPT-OUT of lunch-break.
http://www.bokf.com/Lybarger/lunch/opt-out/HR/TerminationNotice
Remember, it is entirely VOLUNTARY.
Entirely.
JUST like the BOK Employee Opt-out Option for Vision 2025 Vote YES campaign yard signs.
Remember?
Bon Appetit!
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
How is that a personal attack?
I don't think you live here (you just miss badly on some stuff).
You say a lot of stuff that is totally baseless.
YOU attack good people that you clearly don't know.
Instead of saying that a certain judge or politician is on the plutocrats' payroll, how about just saying you disagree with their position?
If you just stuck to the issues rather than going Delgiorno at all times, maybe we could have a discussion.
I just think without the namedropping and bullying, you don't have much to offer.
Just stick to an issue. Any issue.
Quit it with the circular reasoning and tinfoil hat conspiracy tirade.
It is amusing to watch you just collapse around some basic questions, but not very productive -- then again, hopefully you quit it now that I'm doing the exact same thing to you that you do to good, hardworking public and private figures (though I'm starting to think by comparison, a lot of what I say is on the money about you).
You did skip down your list of message board tricks pretty quickly today.
I guess it's no fun to realize you're wrong.
[:X]
It's no fun interacting with a Petulant Child.
Who needed a spanking.
And that's not a personal attack? You literally advocated some sort of homerotic violence.
Grrrr . . .
Thanks, but no thanks, Bear.
And thanks for proving my point. You can't stick to the issues. You just want attention. You don't live in Tulsa (can't if you're a nuclear engineer, unless you have some sort of job in the medical field) and you haven't been downtown for at least 20 years. So, for you, this isn't about politics or discussion, it's just a need for attention.
"Hey look at me, I just called Charlie Norman a name."
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
How is that a personal attack?
I don't think you live here (you just miss badly on some stuff).
You say a lot of stuff that is totally baseless.
YOU attack good people that you clearly don't know.
Instead of saying that a certain judge or politician is on the plutocrats' payroll, how about just saying you disagree with their position?
If you just stuck to the issues rather than going Delgiorno at all times, maybe we could have a discussion.
I just think without the namedropping and bullying, you don't have much to offer.
Just stick to an issue. Any issue.
Quit it with the circular reasoning and tinfoil hat conspiracy tirade.
It is amusing to watch you just collapse around some basic questions, but not very productive -- then again, hopefully you quit it now that I'm doing the exact same thing to you that you do to good, hardworking public and private figures (though I'm starting to think by comparison, a lot of what I say is on the money about you).
You did skip down your list of message board tricks pretty quickly today.
I guess it's no fun to realize you're wrong.
[:X]
It's no fun interacting with a Petulant Child.
Who needed a spanking.
And that's not a personal attack? You literally advocated some sort of homerotic violence.
Grrrr . . .
Thanks, but no thanks, Bear.
And thanks for proving my point. You can't stick to the issues. You just want attention. You don't live in Tulsa (can't if you're a nuclear engineer, unless you have some sort of job in the medical field) and you haven't been downtown for at least 20 years. So, for you, this isn't about politics or discussion, it's just a need for attention.
"Hey look at me, I just called Charlie Norman a name."
[:O]
PAST tense on the spanking.
I think the Reform School missed their chance paddling your behind.
Might have helped, at one time.
Too late now, methinks.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
How is that a personal attack?
I don't think you live here (you just miss badly on some stuff).
You say a lot of stuff that is totally baseless.
YOU attack good people that you clearly don't know.
Instead of saying that a certain judge or politician is on the plutocrats' payroll, how about just saying you disagree with their position?
If you just stuck to the issues rather than going Delgiorno at all times, maybe we could have a discussion.
I just think without the namedropping and bullying, you don't have much to offer.
Just stick to an issue. Any issue.
Quit it with the circular reasoning and tinfoil hat conspiracy tirade.
It is amusing to watch you just collapse around some basic questions, but not very productive -- then again, hopefully you quit it now that I'm doing the exact same thing to you that you do to good, hardworking public and private figures (though I'm starting to think by comparison, a lot of what I say is on the money about you).
You did skip down your list of message board tricks pretty quickly today.
I guess it's no fun to realize you're wrong.
[:X]
It's no fun interacting with a Petulant Child.
Who needed a spanking.
And that's not a personal attack? You literally advocated some sort of homerotic violence.
Grrrr . . .
Thanks, but no thanks, Bear.
And thanks for proving my point. You can't stick to the issues. You just want attention. You don't live in Tulsa (can't if you're a nuclear engineer, unless you have some sort of job in the medical field) and you haven't been downtown for at least 20 years. So, for you, this isn't about politics or discussion, it's just a need for attention.
"Hey look at me, I just called Charlie Norman a name."
[:O]
PAST tense on the spanking.
I think the Reform School missed their chance paddling your behind.
Might have helped, at one time.
Too late now, methinks.
I get it, you like hitting little boys. The point still stands.
Maybe you could apply to run the alternative school, with all the changes . . . you know, if you wanted to move back to Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
How is that a personal attack?
I don't think you live here (you just miss badly on some stuff).
You say a lot of stuff that is totally baseless.
YOU attack good people that you clearly don't know.
Instead of saying that a certain judge or politician is on the plutocrats' payroll, how about just saying you disagree with their position?
If you just stuck to the issues rather than going Delgiorno at all times, maybe we could have a discussion.
I just think without the namedropping and bullying, you don't have much to offer.
Just stick to an issue. Any issue.
Quit it with the circular reasoning and tinfoil hat conspiracy tirade.
It is amusing to watch you just collapse around some basic questions, but not very productive -- then again, hopefully you quit it now that I'm doing the exact same thing to you that you do to good, hardworking public and private figures (though I'm starting to think by comparison, a lot of what I say is on the money about you).
You did skip down your list of message board tricks pretty quickly today.
I guess it's no fun to realize you're wrong.
[:X]
It's no fun interacting with a Petulant Child.
Who needed a spanking.
And that's not a personal attack? You literally advocated some sort of homerotic violence.
Grrrr . . .
Thanks, but no thanks, Bear.
And thanks for proving my point. You can't stick to the issues. You just want attention. You don't live in Tulsa (can't if you're a nuclear engineer, unless you have some sort of job in the medical field) and you haven't been downtown for at least 20 years. So, for you, this isn't about politics or discussion, it's just a need for attention.
"Hey look at me, I just called Charlie Norman a name."
[:O]
PAST tense on the spanking.
I think the Reform School missed their chance paddling your behind.
Might have helped, at one time.
Too late now, methinks.
I get it, you like hitting little boys. The point still stands.
Maybe you could apply to run the alternative school, with all the changes . . . you know, if you wanted to move back to Tulsa.
Based on your immature view of the city Real Politik, I've long suspected you were a mere juvenile.
Thanks for confirming, Junior.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear - Posted - 07/16/2008 : 12:52:21
Just click on the link to OPT-OUT of lunch-break.
http://www.bokf.com/Lybarger/lunch/opt-out/HR/TerminationNotice
Edited by - Friendly Bear on 07/16/2008 16:50:50
You really went back and edited a joke 4 hours later? It wasn't even that funny or clever...
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear - Posted - 07/16/2008 : 12:52:21
Just click on the link to OPT-OUT of lunch-break.
http://www.bokf.com/Lybarger/lunch/opt-out/HR/TerminationNotice
Edited by - Friendly Bear on 07/16/2008 16:50:50
You really went back and edited a joke 4 hours later? It wasn't even that funny or clever...
Only for BOK Werker's benefit.
That way, bank employees electing to Opt-Out of their Voluntary lunch break, going forward could link directly to their HR Termination of Employment notice.
Saves a lot of time that way.
He appreciated it.
I'm glad to help.
Again.
Still, the bank made over $100 million in net profit for the first six months of 2008.
Not TOO shabby.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Methinks bear doth protesteth too much.
"Never argue with an idiot. He drags you down to his level and then beats you with experience."
"Yes, and never mud wrestle with a pig.
The pigs enjoys it."
Oink.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Based on your immature view of the city Real Politik, I've long suspected you were a mere juvenile.
Thanks for confirming, Junior.
What are you talking about? Where have I advocated anything on here about the "city politik" other than support for a stadium that every single member of city council was in support of?
You don't even know my age.
But I do know that you don't live in Tulsa because you always shy away.
You don't know squat about the issues facing downtown or the city at large. You just spout off a bunch of nonsense.
And you are jealous of successful people.
And just playing hateful.
It's tough to be Friendly Bear.
No one likes you.
And you think it's OK to touch little boys.
Poor FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Based on your immature view of the city Real Politik, I've long suspected you were a mere juvenile.
Thanks for confirming, Junior.
What are you talking about? Where have I advocated anything on here about the "city politik" other than support for a stadium that every single member of city council was in support of?
You don't even know my age.
But I do know that you don't live in Tulsa because you always shy away.
You don't know squat about the issues facing downtown or the city at large. You just spout off a bunch of nonsense.
And you are jealous of successful people.
And just playing hateful.
It's tough to be Friendly Bear.
No one likes you.
And you think it's OK to touch little boys.
Poor FB.
[:O]
The term realpolitik is often used pejoratively to imply politics that are coercive, amoral, or Machiavellian.
I.E., a PERFEKT description of our merry lives here in the Banana Republic of Tulsa.
You'll probably cover Realpolitik in next year's session at The Tulsa's Boy's Home.
It's mandatory to graduate.
Don't worry. It's okay.
They allow an Open-Book exam.....
Where are we, Step #9 for FB? "If being made a fool, do everything possible to get thread locked, including whining to moderators and going to petty insults, all of which have no support." [}:)]
Again, I'm not sure why you are talking about the Boy's home. I've been to college and have a graduate degree.
Is there some boy you know at the Boy's Home?
Is that where your kids are now that you aren't in Tulsa?
You never said "realpolitick" -- you said "politick," which is a pretty meaningless term.
Regardless, you don't know what you are talking about. You make up all these false accusations about Tulsa and people, but they rarely have support (see the thread about your lack of knowledge of Drillers baseball and the other where you said there was nothing downtown).
If being an ignorant a-ho is "politick," then I guess you've got in cornered.
Look, I know you are a troll.
And in a few easy steps, I've made a fool of you.
You can make up stuff about me all you want. None of it's true.
You just prove my point again and again.
If you really are serious about having a conversation, tell us where you live.
I want a zip code and a street.
Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you don't live here, haven't been here for some time, and generally clueless about Tulsa.
So, choose it -- Door #1, zip code and street -- or Door #2, admit you know nothing.
I'll await your response, but may alert authorities if you live within so many feet of a school or park.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Where are we, Step #9 for FB? "If being made a fool, do everything possible to get thread locked, including whining to moderators and going to petty insults, all of which have no support." [}:)]
Again, I'm not sure why you are talking about the Boy's home. I've been to college and have a graduate degree.
Is there some boy you know at the Boy's Home?
Is that where your kids are now that you aren't in Tulsa?
You never said "realpolitick" -- you said "politick," which is a pretty meaningless term.
Regardless, you don't know what you are talking about. You make up all these false accusations about Tulsa and people, but they rarely have support (see the thread about your lack of knowledge of Drillers baseball and the other where you said there was nothing downtown).
If being an ignorant a-ho is "politick," then I guess you've got in cornered.
Look, I know you are a troll.
And in a few easy steps, I've made a fool of you.
You can make up stuff about me all you want. None of it's true.
You just prove my point again and again.
If you really are serious about having a conversation, tell us where you live.
I want a zip code and a street.
Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you don't live here, haven't been here for some time, and generally clueless about Tulsa.
So, choose it -- Door #1, zip code and street -- or Door #2, admit you know nothing.
I'll await your response, but may alert authorities if you live within so many feet of a school or park.
[:O]
I choose............
Door #3.
What's behind Door #3?
The Octopus.
We've been occassionally connecting the dots in this Forum, despite immature disrupters trying to personalize attacks, or trying to change the subject.
The Octopus.
That would make a FINE Forum topic.
Shall we start with The Dozen?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Where are we, Step #9 for FB? "If being made a fool, do everything possible to get thread locked, including whining to moderators and going to petty insults, all of which have no support." [}:)]
Again, I'm not sure why you are talking about the Boy's home. I've been to college and have a graduate degree.
Is there some boy you know at the Boy's Home?
Is that where your kids are now that you aren't in Tulsa?
You never said "realpolitick" -- you said "politick," which is a pretty meaningless term.
Regardless, you don't know what you are talking about. You make up all these false accusations about Tulsa and people, but they rarely have support (see the thread about your lack of knowledge of Drillers baseball and the other where you said there was nothing downtown).
If being an ignorant a-ho is "politick," then I guess you've got in cornered.
Look, I know you are a troll.
And in a few easy steps, I've made a fool of you.
You can make up stuff about me all you want. None of it's true.
You just prove my point again and again.
If you really are serious about having a conversation, tell us where you live.
I want a zip code and a street.
Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you don't live here, haven't been here for some time, and generally clueless about Tulsa.
So, choose it -- Door #1, zip code and street -- or Door #2, admit you know nothing.
I'll await your response, but may alert authorities if you live within so many feet of a school or park.
[:O]
I choose............
Door #3.
What's behind Door #3?
The Octopus.
We've been occassionally connecting the dots in this Forum, despite immature disrupters trying to personalize attacks, or trying to change the subject.
The Octopus.
That would make a FINE Forum topic.
Shall we start with The Dozen?
This is just too easy now
(http://www.atn2.net/bunny_pancake.jpg/bunny_pancake-full.jpg)
That's an admission that you know nothing.
I'm not sure what contribution of your's I have disrupted -- it's 99% nonsense from you all the time.
It's all the same bizarre, poorly reasoned conspiracy theory . . .
blame the banks . . .
the oligarchs (even if they ran against each other) . . .
anyone with success . . .
Throw in an emoticon and maybe a hateful, cheap comments . . .
You don't give a rat's patootie what happens to this town.
You are against ANY effort to improve it.
I kind of think you hate Tulsa.
I've offered a bus ticket, but you won't take it; you aren't even man enough to say that you live here.
You're just a chump hiding behind a screenname and some childish, sometimes perverse comments.
It sucks to have to admit you know nothing, but thanks for playing.
FB gets owned again.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
That's an admission that you know nothing.
I'm not sure what contribution of your's I have disrupted -- it's 99% nonsense from you all the time.
It's all the same bizarre, poorly reasoned conspiracy theory . . .
blame the banks . . .
the oligarchs (even if they ran against each other) . . .
anyone with success . . .
Throw in an emoticon and maybe a hateful, cheap comments . . .
You don't give a rat's patootie what happens to this town.
You are against ANY effort to improve it.
I kind of think you hate Tulsa.
I've offered a bus ticket, but you won't take it; you aren't even man enough to say that you live here.
You're just a chump hiding behind a screenname and some childish, sometimes perverse comments.
It sucks to have to admit you know nothing, but thanks for playing.
FB gets owned again.
[}:)]
It's busy right now, installing some new gas centrifuges, so a discussion of the local Tulsa Octopus will have to wait.
Be patient.
It's been around for decades.
And, it's not going away.
Are those centrifuges for all your hot air?
You just don't have a cogent response -- you have time to type that BS response, but no time to give me your zip code.
You aren't here to talk about what Tulsa needs to do.
You're here just to be hateful.
It's a tacit admission.
Thanks for playing.
[8]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Are those centrifuges for all your hot air?
You just don't have a cogent response -- you have time to type that BS response, but no time to give me your zip code.
You aren't here to talk about what Tulsa needs to do.
You're here just to be hateful.
It's a tacit admission.
Thanks for playing.
[8]
Why don't you phone, instead?
We can talk.
Call:
BR549. Ask for "Junior" Samples.
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
If you would bring just one idea ONCE, maybe there could be some useful discourse.
Instead you ramble on aimlessly because you crave attention.
Seriously, I have a hard time making hide nor tail of about 90 percent of the stuff you spew.
But I tend to agree with Gold, you probably live in Osage County somewhere outside the city limits.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
If you would bring just one idea ONCE, maybe there could be some useful discourse.
Instead you ramble on aimlessly because you crave attention.
Seriously, I have a hard time making hide nor tail of about 90 percent of the stuff you spew.
But I tend to agree with Gold, you probably live in Osage County somewhere outside the city limits.
Bring one idea here.......
Hmmmmh?
Okay.
How about the new Driller Stadium tax-fleecing is in essence only a Cash Flow replacement for the Manhattan Construction Company, a.k.a. the Rooney Family Financial Interests?
That is all.
The BOK Arena opens September 2008, ending Manhattan's juicy taxpayer provided gravy train.
According to our high maintenance Mayor Kathy Taylor, Manhattan has ALREADY been selected to construct the Driller Stadium.
Named the DAY AFTER the City Council was BUM-RUSHED to vote 6-3 for the downtown BID.
Without the benefit of COMPETITIVE Bidding!
Stadium construction begins in September......
What timing!
Reason:
They NEED to FEED their GREED.
and,
To make their 9-30-08 financial numbers?
What about making their numbers?
The domestic commercial real estate construction market is in a widespread decline.
Nationwide.
Staying on the Goobermint sinecure may help keep their bankers happy.
Clear enough?
Dots connected sufficiently?
[:O]
So, let me understand here.
Nuclear Engineer, yes?
Chances are then you suck off the gov't teat or rate-payer's teats, or you likely have a job which interacts with government entities and somewhere up-line requires government investment.
The act is getting old in Tulsa Friendly Bear, time to re-join the carnival circuit.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
So, let me understand here.
Nuclear Engineer, yes?
Chances are then you suck off the gov't teat or rate-payer's teats, or you likely have a job which interacts with government entities and somewhere up-line requires government investment.
The act is getting old in Tulsa Friendly Bear, time to re-join the carnival circuit.
FB receives no Federal, State, County, or City tax money.
My Paymaster, however, is very generous.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
So, let me understand here.
Nuclear Engineer, yes?
Chances are then you suck off the gov't teat or rate-payer's teats, or you likely have a job which interacts with government entities and somewhere up-line requires government investment.
The act is getting old in Tulsa Friendly Bear, time to re-join the carnival circuit.
FB receives no Federal, State, County, or City tax money.
My Paymaster, however, is very generous.
[:X]
Nice way to dance around that one, how about the "paymaster" or the paymaster's clientele?
If your clients get tax breaks for their projects, you are on the teat.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
So, let me understand here.
Nuclear Engineer, yes?
Chances are then you suck off the gov't teat or rate-payer's teats, or you likely have a job which interacts with government entities and somewhere up-line requires government investment.
The act is getting old in Tulsa Friendly Bear, time to re-join the carnival circuit.
FB receives no Federal, State, County, or City tax money.
My Paymaster, however, is very generous.
[:X]
Nice way to dance around that one, how about the "paymaster" or the paymaster's clientele?
If your clients get tax breaks for their projects, you are on the teat.
I don't handle the financial end.
Simply fission and fusion.
And, C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
Yoou don't have any ideas.
You add virtually nothing to the conversation.
A lot of what you say is intentionally false.
You are probably the most poorly informed troll I've found on the internet, and CF will attest to how many I've encountered.
You won't even answer a simple question about your zip code.
Sorry, FB, you suck at life.
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
Yoou don't have any ideas.
You add virtually nothing to the conversation.
A lot of what you say is intentionally false.
You are probably the most poorly informed troll I've found on the internet, and CF will attest to how many I've encountered.
You won't even answer a simple question about your zip code.
Sorry, FB, you suck at life.
[;)]
Isn't this a Political Forum, and isn't this Topic about how our local controlling power structure LOVES to keep the concrete flowing for their favored construction companies, eschews competitive bidding on these construction projects, and never met a tax they didn't like?
It's really not about personalities. Is it?
It's about Issues and Public Policy.
Really.
Mr. Auric seems to want to personalize it.
Or, change the subject.
Hmmmmmh..........
Wonder WHY?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
Yoou don't have any ideas.
You add virtually nothing to the conversation.
A lot of what you say is intentionally false.
You are probably the most poorly informed troll I've found on the internet, and CF will attest to how many I've encountered.
You won't even answer a simple question about your zip code.
Sorry, FB, you suck at life.
[;)]
Isn't this a Political Forum, and isn't this Topic about how our local controlling power structure LOVES to keep the concrete flowing for their favored construction companies, eschews competitive bidding on these construction projects, and never met a tax they didn't like?
It's really not about personalities. Is it?
It's about Issues and Public Policy.
Really.
Mr. Auric seems to want to personalize it.
Or, change the subject.
Hmmmmmh..........
Wonder WHY?
Why?
It'c clear: I'm sick of your baseless attacks on good people.
I'm sick of your ignorant comments on city politics.
I don't like people who hate on downtown but. at best, haven't been there since 1987.
Plus, I think you're a jerk.
You make yourself the topic of discussion.
You can't believe 90% of the poop you throw on the walls here.
If you want to be an attention whore, then fine: we'll make you the topic of conversation.
Where do you live again?
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Glad that you admit you are an ignorant bumpkin.
You have no connection to Tulsa.
And you are a wimp.
This www.tulsanow.org Forum is called Political "Arena".
Not like in Boxing Arena.
Like in an Arena of Ideas.
Try and bring one sometime.
To discuss.
Yoou don't have any ideas.
You add virtually nothing to the conversation.
A lot of what you say is intentionally false.
You are probably the most poorly informed troll I've found on the internet, and CF will attest to how many I've encountered.
You won't even answer a simple question about your zip code.
Sorry, FB, you suck at life.
[;)]
Isn't this a Political Forum, and isn't this Topic about how our local controlling power structure LOVES to keep the concrete flowing for their favored construction companies, eschews competitive bidding on these construction projects, and never met a tax they didn't like?
It's really not about personalities. Is it?
It's about Issues and Public Policy.
Really.
Mr. Auric seems to want to personalize it.
Or, change the subject.
Hmmmmmh..........
Wonder WHY?
Why?
It'c clear: I'm sick of your baseless attacks on good people.
I'm sick of your ignorant comments on city politics.
I don't like people who hate on downtown but. at best, haven't been there since 1987.
Plus, I think you're a jerk.
You make yourself the topic of discussion.
You can't believe 90% of the poop you throw on the walls here.
If you want to be an attention whore, then fine: we'll make you the topic of conversation.
Where do you live again?
[:O]
Thank you for responding.
ANALYSIS to follow??
You won't even answer my question.
You have no guts.
You aren't qualified to speak on issues in Tulsa.
You attack good people.
That's not analysis -- it's just mindless hate.
I have defended them in this thread.
You aren't here for political discussion.
You just want attention.
Like Paul Tay.
Or Bikerfox.
Only, you aren't even in Tulsa.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You won't even answer my question.
You have no guts.
You aren't qualified to speak on issues in Tulsa.
You attack good people.
That's not analysis -- it's just mindless hate.
I have defended them in this thread.
You aren't here for political discussion.
You just want attention.
Like Paul Tay.
Or Bikerfox.
Only, you aren't even in Tulsa.
[:X]
Qualified?
Recently, in this Political Arena Forum, I posted a New Topic titled:
Why Do We Need a New Stadium?
Positing 10 reasons we do NOT need a new stadium.
Kind of an analysis, some might say.
The topic generated 3702 views, and 177 posts in response, indicating Forum interest.
It was topical.
Timely.
Temperate.
And, now locked.
It wasn't cogent.
The vasy majority of your reasons on the stadium weren't based in fact.
You have repeatedly said there is nothing in downtown Tulsa.
I have given you a couple of extensive lists of things in downtown.
You never respond to that because you don't know what I'm talking about.
Pretty much the same thing with your lack of knowledge of minor league baseball.
Ergo, you haven't been downtown or really followed the Drillers for a long time.
And that's my point: how can such a discussion be fruitful if the guy who claims to know everything (but in some sort of ironic twist actually knows nothing) hasn't seen the area around the proposed stadium in a couple of decades? Or who doesn't know much about minor league baseball?
I've asked you whether you live in Tulsa because I'm trying to understand how you can repeatedly be so wrong.
You won't answer.
Ergo, you don't live in Tulsa.
Yeah, people read the thread because they are interested in the topic.
I don't think they are interested in your lies and misrepresentations.
You're so wrong on a lot of things, it's almost satire.
But it's not, because you really believe it.
And you're such a coward, you won't even give us a basic location of where you live.
All that makes for less than fruitful conversation.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It wasn't cogent.
The vasy majority of your reasons on the stadium weren't based in fact.
You have repeatedly said there is nothing in downtown Tulsa.
I have given you a couple of extensive lists of things in downtown.
You never respond to that because you don't know what I'm talking about.
Pretty much the same thing with your lack of knowledge of minor league baseball.
Ergo, you haven't been downtown or really followed the Drillers for a long time.
And that's my point: how can such a discussion be fruitful if the guy who claims to know everything (but in some sort of ironic twist actually knows nothing) hasn't seen the area around the proposed stadium in a couple of decades? Or who doesn't know much about minor league baseball?
I've asked you whether you live in Tulsa because I'm trying to understand how you can repeatedly be so wrong.
You won't answer.
Ergo, you don't live in Tulsa.
Yeah, people read the thread because they are interested in the topic.
I don't think they are interested in your lies and misrepresentations.
You're so wrong on a lot of things, it's almost satire.
But it's not, because you really believe it.
And you're such a coward, you won't even give us a basic location of where you live.
All that makes for less than fruitful conversation.
[}:)]
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
With all the flurry and hub-bub of activity downtown, I'm surprised that our city leaders want to crowd in Downtown with a new Stadium.
What next downtown?
How about:
A Grocery Store.
[:)]
As an observer in this conversation Bear, it does appear that you have no clue what is in that area. This Friday head down that way. Get some dinner, maybe catch a show at the PAC or a concert at Canes, grab a few beers.
Without the catalysts of a baseball stadium, renovated convention center and the BOk Center tons of entertainment is already established in that area. You have great research and incite into some issues (the breakdown of Great Plains), but it doesn't look like you know much about what's happening in the scene. When was the last time you did anything downtown?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It wasn't cogent.
The vasy majority of your reasons on the stadium weren't based in fact.
You have repeatedly said there is nothing in downtown Tulsa.
I have given you a couple of extensive lists of things in downtown.
You never respond to that because you don't know what I'm talking about.
Pretty much the same thing with your lack of knowledge of minor league baseball.
Ergo, you haven't been downtown or really followed the Drillers for a long time.
And that's my point: how can such a discussion be fruitful if the guy who claims to know everything (but in some sort of ironic twist actually knows nothing) hasn't seen the area around the proposed stadium in a couple of decades? Or who doesn't know much about minor league baseball?
I've asked you whether you live in Tulsa because I'm trying to understand how you can repeatedly be so wrong.
You won't answer.
Ergo, you don't live in Tulsa.
Yeah, people read the thread because they are interested in the topic.
I don't think they are interested in your lies and misrepresentations.
You're so wrong on a lot of things, it's almost satire.
But it's not, because you really believe it.
And you're such a coward, you won't even give us a basic location of where you live.
All that makes for less than fruitful conversation.
[}:)]
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
With all the flurry and hub-bub of activity downtown, I'm surprised that our city leaders want to crowd in Downtown with a new Stadium.
What next downtown?
How about:
A Grocery Store.
[:)]
While I appreciate the irony of you contradicting your earlier assertions about how there is nothing downtown, and your effort at humor, it doesn't excuse your earlier ignorance (or lies) about life downtown.
There's a lot going on down there these days.
Much more than there was in Bricktown when they built their stadium.
There is also a big empty lot in the area that will be filled with the stadium.
A grocery store is a good idea down there -- it is much needed.
I have heard of a couple who have looked at it as a possibility in recent months.
Downtown also really needs a pharmacy, given the hospital and the workers downtown who have to drive out to wait in line in other parts of the city.
Of course, the problem is that no one wants to give these types a good enough deal.
Hopefully that changes.
And hopefully you enlighten us on your residence.
Until then, I'll keep calling out your BS.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
As an observer in this conversation Bear, it does appear that you have no clue what is in that area. This Friday head down that way. Get some dinner, maybe catch a show at the PAC or a concert at Canes, grab a few beers.
Without the catalysts of a baseball stadium, renovated convention center and the BOk Center tons of entertainment is already established in that area. You have great research and incite into some issues (the breakdown of Great Plains), but it doesn't look like you know much about what's happening in the scene. When was the last time you did anything downtown?
I've never said that downtown is dead.
It has however been in a steady decline for decades stretching back to the late 1960's.
The need for a CBD has faded with new technologies (FAXES, E-mail, computerization with inter-networking, and high speed telecom), new suburban housing patterns and new suburban retail venues.
Not working downtown, I infrequently go downtown for business. No need.
The distance from the Maxwell Convention Center to the proposed Stadium is a pretty good hike.
Maybe there can be synergies.
However, I don't see how 66-70 home games per year will provide any significant tipping factor for downtown redevelopment.
The book "Field of Schemes" says it much better than I ever could regarding the economics of new sports stadiums.
The Maxwell convention center didn't lead to redevelop downtown.
The PAC didn't do it.
The Main Mall didn't do it.
I don't see how the Arena in its silo'd location next to the Federal Building will do it.
An outdoor stadium will sit mostly empty.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It wasn't cogent.
The vasy majority of your reasons on the stadium weren't based in fact.
You have repeatedly said there is nothing in downtown Tulsa.
I have given you a couple of extensive lists of things in downtown.
You never respond to that because you don't know what I'm talking about.
Pretty much the same thing with your lack of knowledge of minor league baseball.
Ergo, you haven't been downtown or really followed the Drillers for a long time.
And that's my point: how can such a discussion be fruitful if the guy who claims to know everything (but in some sort of ironic twist actually knows nothing) hasn't seen the area around the proposed stadium in a couple of decades? Or who doesn't know much about minor league baseball?
I've asked you whether you live in Tulsa because I'm trying to understand how you can repeatedly be so wrong.
You won't answer.
Ergo, you don't live in Tulsa.
Yeah, people read the thread because they are interested in the topic.
I don't think they are interested in your lies and misrepresentations.
You're so wrong on a lot of things, it's almost satire.
But it's not, because you really believe it.
And you're such a coward, you won't even give us a basic location of where you live.
All that makes for less than fruitful conversation.
[}:)]
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
With all the flurry and hub-bub of activity downtown, I'm surprised that our city leaders want to crowd in Downtown with a new Stadium.
What next downtown?
How about:
A Grocery Store.
[:)]
While I appreciate the irony of you contradicting your earlier assertions about how there is nothing downtown, and your effort at humor, it doesn't excuse your earlier ignorance (or lies) about life downtown.
There's a lot going on down there these days.
Much more than there was in Bricktown when they built their stadium.
There is also a big empty lot in the area that will be filled with the stadium.
A grocery store is a good idea down there -- it is much needed.
I have heard of a couple who have looked at it as a possibility in recent months.
Downtown also really needs a pharmacy, given the hospital and the workers downtown who have to drive out to wait in line in other parts of the city.
Of course, the problem is that no one wants to give these types a good enough deal.
Hopefully that changes.
And hopefully you enlighten us on your residence.
Until then, I'll keep calling out your BS.
[:X]
Consider it unlikely that having been called a Hater, Whore, Coward, Wimp, Troll, and Jerk, among other choice epithets, that I would really provide you with my street address.
Maybe we'll meet someday at a Driller's game.....I'll buy you a beer.
I didn't ask for a street address -- just a zip code and street.
You call all sorts of people whores and other names.
That's part of my point: you cry when the tables are turned on you.
I called you an "attention whore," for the record.
But you're right, I do think you're a jerk.
As for the offer of a beer, I don't make any Drillers road games, so I doubt I'll be wherever you'll watch.
Hell, you don't even like the Drillers from what I gather.
And you surely won't watch them downtown.
And, like I said, if you actually do live in Tulsa, I'll buy you a bus ticket so you can escape your perceived oligarchy.
Anyway, they shouldn't sell beer to someone in your condition.
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I didn't ask for a street address -- just a zip code and street.
You call all sorts of people whores and other names.
That's part of my point: you cry when the tables are turned on you.
I called you an "attention whore," for the record.
But you're right, I do think you're a jerk.
As for the offer of a beer, I don't make any Drillers road games, so I doubt I'll be wherever you'll watch.
Hell, you don't even like the Drillers from what I gather.
And you surely won't watch them downtown.
And, like I said, if you actually do live in Tulsa, I'll buy you a bus ticket so you can escape your perceived oligarchy.
Anyway, they shouldn't sell beer to someone in your condition.
[;)]
Incorrect.
Feel free to show me where I've called anyone a Whore.
Pimping, pandering prostitute politicians, maybe.
But never Whore.
[:X]
There's a distinction with meaning.
Though not as meaningful as living in Tulsa or not living in Tulsa.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
There's a distinction with meaning.
Though not as meaningful as living in Tulsa or not living in Tulsa.
[}:)]
Did you mean "A distinction without a difference"?
Thought you might, by way of continuing your thread of constant criticism.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
There's a distinction with meaning.
Though not as meaningful as living in Tulsa or not living in Tulsa.
[}:)]
Did you mean "A distinction without a difference"?
Thought you might, by way of continuing your thread of constant criticism.
If you can't take the heat.....
It's less than 1 mile (.9) from the front door of the BOk Center to the entrance to the new ballpark in Tulsa. 2 blocks further from the convention center.
It's .7 miles from the OKC Convention Center/Ford Center to the Bricktown Ballpark.
With just a little effort, it could be a nice walk. Through the Center of the Universe to the Brady District. Just a little effort and it would be well lit the and occupied the entire way.
Certainly 1 mile is not too far for most people that would be going out after a concert. Or run a couple shuttles. Hell, Paul Tay could get out there with a peddle powered rickshaw and make some decent money.
You reading this Paul? I'd be a huge fan.
OKC
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=16495635331445506446,35.464655,-97.518140%3B809267375506793323,35.465843,-97.509141&saddr=Myriad+Gardens+%4035.464655,+-97.518140&daddr=35.465931,-97.510657+to:S+Mickey+Mantle+Dr+%4035.465843,+-97.509141&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=16&via=1&dirflg=w&doflg=ptm&sll=35.465065,-97.51197&sspn=0.011709,0.018797&ie=UTF8&z=16
Tulsa
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=503749286646080215,36.155284,-95.992212&saddr=W+3rd+St+S+%26+Denver+Ave&daddr=W+1st+St+S+%4036.155284,+-95.992212+to:36.158217,-95.993578+to:E.+Brady+Ave+%26+N+Elgin&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=2&sz=16&via=1,2&dirflg=w&doflg=ptm&sll=36.157194,-95.992763&sspn=0.011608,0.018797&ie=UTF8&z=16
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
There's a distinction with meaning.
Though not as meaningful as living in Tulsa or not living in Tulsa.
[}:)]
Did you mean "A distinction without a difference"?
Thought you might, by way of continuing your thread of constant criticism.
For someone who does everything to attack good, hardworking people, you sure can't take the heat.
And, you appear to have no grasp for sarcasm.
Or a sense of what Tulsa can do to improve.
You want it to continue to struggle.
And that's bad.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
It's less than 1 mile (.9) from the front door of the BOk Center to the entrance to the new ballpark in Tulsa. 2 blocks further from the convention center.
It's .7 miles from the OKC Convention Center/Ford Center to the Bricktown Ballpark.
With just a little effort, it could be a nice walk. Through the Center of the Universe to the Brady District. Just a little effort and it would be well lit the and occupied the entire way.
Certainly 1 mile is not too far for most people that would be going out after a concert. Or run a couple shuttles. Hell, Paul Tay could get out there with a peddle powered rickshaw and make some decent money.
You reading this Paul? I'd be a huge fan.
OKC
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=16495635331445506446,35.464655,-97.518140%3B809267375506793323,35.465843,-97.509141&saddr=Myriad+Gardens+%4035.464655,+-97.518140&daddr=35.465931,-97.510657+to:S+Mickey+Mantle+Dr+%4035.465843,+-97.509141&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=16&via=1&dirflg=w&doflg=ptm&sll=35.465065,-97.51197&sspn=0.011709,0.018797&ie=UTF8&z=16
Tulsa
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=503749286646080215,36.155284,-95.992212&saddr=W+3rd+St+S+%26+Denver+Ave&daddr=W+1st+St+S+%4036.155284,+-95.992212+to:36.158217,-95.993578+to:E.+Brady+Ave+%26+N+Elgin&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=2&sz=16&via=1,2&dirflg=w&doflg=ptm&sll=36.157194,-95.992763&sspn=0.011608,0.018797&ie=UTF8&z=16
IF the price of gasoline keeps going UP, we may all be riding bicyles like Paul Tay, albeit without the Props and signs.
Connecting the BOK Arena to the new downtown Ballpark still seems a might of a stretch.
They are dissimilar venues.
Now, if there was an entertainment district between the two, their might be some Synergy.
I still consider a $30 million public investment to garner 66-70 nites of activity downtown while abandoning an adequate, PAID-FOR Driller Stadium to be a total waste of taxpayer money.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now, if there was an entertainment district between the two, their might be some Synergy.
Silly old Pooh-Bear, do you have any f***ing clue what you are talking about? They already exist, and they are called Brady and Blue Dome.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now, if there was an entertainment district between the two, their might be some Synergy.
Silly old Pooh-Bear, do you have any f***ing clue what you are talking about? They already exist, and they are called Brady and Blue Dome.
Why start with the F-bomb insults?
These entertainment areas aren't exactly BETWEEN the two venues.
More tangential.
And, not close at all to the BOK Arena.
In fact, there's not much around the Arena except parking lots and government buildings.
Luckily, the TowerView Apartments isn't the closest commercial building to the Arena anymore.
The Salvation Army Day Center for the Homeless is as near to the BOK Arena as these entertainment venues.
The Tulsa County Jail is closer to the Arena than the Brady District is to the Arena.
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium, and the Stadium may give a minor boost 66-70 nites per year to sales in the Brady District.
Great.
Mr. Lamson will love his Driller fans eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 attending a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Friendly Bear, get off your donkey and away from Google Earth and actually go walk the area instead of spreading misinformation about downtown.
Helps to actually know the area before a case of loose stool of the mouth occurs.
So the Flints or Rooneys are going to make more money, would you prefer that the mayor have made it easier for an outfit from Ft. Lauderdale, Dallas, or KC to take our money out of the city?
BFD, move on.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now, if there was an entertainment district between the two, their might be some Synergy.
Silly old Pooh-Bear, do you have any f***ing clue what you are talking about? They already exist, and they are called Brady and Blue Dome.
Why start with the F-bomb insults?
These entertainment areas aren't exactly BETWEEN the two venues.
More tangential.
And, not close at all to the BOK Arena.
In fact, there's not much around the Arena except parking lots and government buildings.
Luckily, the TowerView Apartments isn't the closest commercial building to the Arena anymore.
The Day Center for the Homeless is as near to to the BOK Arena as these entertainment venues.
The Jail is closer to the Arena than the Brady District is to the Arena.
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
This is where you have been proven wrong several times.
Can we agree that you'll drop terrible arguments when they are blown out of the water?
No one is forcing the Drillers to move downtown (though they will inevitablty be forced to move by the Tulsa County
Fairgrounds Horsey World.
If he wants to go to Jenks, he had his opportunity.
In OKC, the other establishments thrive because there is a stadium nearby. Not everyone wants a hot dog; some folks might want a beer before or after the game; heck, some people just like to eat and drink.
This model has worked all over the country. Almost every major league park now has an entertainment district nearby. Many minor league teams (OKC, Memphis) are doing the same thing. You present no reason why it won't work in Tulsa.
You're right in that the arena location doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it's not THAT far away from the rest of the night life. I wold have preferred that we do something like Memphis, where the arena opens onto Beale Street.
That said, you've lost this argument before.
Please drop the nonsense like this; it's a waste of time to repeat the response.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Friendly Bear, get off your donkey and away from Google Earth and actually go walk the area instead of spreading misinformation about downtown.
Helps to actually know the area before a case of loose stool of the mouth occurs.
So the Flints or Rooneys are going to make more money, would you prefer that the mayor have made it easier for an outfit from Ft. Lauderdale, Dallas, or KC to take our money out of the city?
BFD, move on.
Feel free to show me where I'm wrong..........
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
In that case, there is a Taco Cabana located nearby the current Driller's stadium. They serve nachos, don't they? And Target has pretzels and popcorn. They even sell peanuts. Lowe's has a hot dog stand in the parking lot.
It's a shame that there is so much competition. How will they ever survive?
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
You lose.
So sorry.
Thanks for playing.
Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks. But, it has stayed in busines.
Lamson knows it is there. Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?
The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment. The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.
Anyway, your argument on this is really poor. The model has worked all over the country. You have no counter-examples. Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.
So, you're wrong.
Didn't get it right.
Way off base.
Incorrect.
You lose.
False.
Fail.
No.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
In that case, there is a Taco Cabana located nearby the current Driller's stadium. They serve nachos, don't they? And Target has pretzels and popcorn. They even sell peanuts. Lowe's has a hot dog stand in the parking lot.
It's a shame that there is so much competition. How will they ever survive?
Ritz has beer and better table dances.
[;)]
Did anyone catch this?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Now we know why Pooh-Bear wants the Drillers to move to Jenks. We also know why he also opposes any development downtown, midtown, or elsewhere in the city.
His intentions aren't honorable as he would like other posters to believe. His arguments are purely based on the fact of convenience to him.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
You lose.
So sorry.
Thanks for playing.
Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks. But, it has stayed in busines.
Lamson knows it is there. Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?
The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment. The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.
Anyway, your argument on this is really poor. The model has worked all over the country. You have no counter-examples. Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.
So, you're wrong.
Didn't get it right.
Way off base.
Incorrect.
You lose.
False.
Fail.
No.
[:O]
Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets. Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.
Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium. He'll be WORSE off unless:
1) He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.
2) He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan. Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.
3) He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.
Where's he gonna make the $$?
Concessions.
Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:
You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".
It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.
Available from www.amazon.com
Enjoy your education.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
Did anyone catch this?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Now we know why Pooh-Bear wants the Drillers to move to Jenks. We also know why he also opposes any development downtown, midtown, or elsewhere in the city.
His intentions aren't honorable as he would like other posters to believe. His arguments are purely based on the fact of convenience to him.
Am I your favorite poster?
Wow.
Since the geographic center of Tulsa is 41st and Yale, and NOT downtown, methinks that the downtown arena will not be convenient for the majority of citizens of Tulsa, Bixby, Jenks, Glenpool and south Broken Arrow.
I'm in GOOD company.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
Wrong. Only those sports that are considered professional. Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?
How about OSU vs OU. Those games ARE taxed.
How about merchandise? Food?
Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?
You're spinning your wheels now.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
So you think you know about his business than he does?
The Drillers are very smart business people...your argument is that he will lose money because he is near some restaurants seems ludicrous.
Have you ever been to Wrigley Park? Surrounded by bars and restauurants, yet was the first ballpark to add concession stands.
Give it up friendly bear, you don't know nothing about the baseball business or downtown Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Am I your favorite poster?
Wow.
Only because I find those with illusions of grandeur entertaining. It's a morbid fascination of mine... [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
In that case, there is a Taco Cabana located nearby the current Driller's stadium. They serve nachos, don't they? And Target has pretzels and popcorn. They even sell peanuts. Lowe's has a hot dog stand in the parking lot.
It's a shame that there is so much competition. How will they ever survive?
You can buy all the above at the Walgreens at 15th & Yale just outside left field. You can even buy a small Hibachi grill, charcoal and lighter fluid. How did the Drillers make it there so long? Good point Rob [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
Did anyone catch this?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Now we know why Pooh-Bear wants the Drillers to move to Jenks. We also know why he also opposes any development downtown, midtown, or elsewhere in the city.
His intentions aren't honorable as he would like other posters to believe. His arguments are purely based on the fact of convenience to him.
Am I your favorite poster?
Wow.
Since the geographic center of Tulsa is 41st and Yale, and NOT downtown, methinks that the downtown arena will not be convenient for the majority of citizens of Tulsa, Bixby, Jenks, Glenpool and south Broken Arrow.
I'm in GOOD company.
Al Jerkins told me one time that "if you paid to get into a Driller's game, you need to have your head examined."
Concessions are taxable, as well as souvenirs. That's where the real revenue is, not the gate. Why do you think they do so many free gate admission promotions? To get the real revenue.
Nice try, but weak. You are starting to wander off into the area of errors and omissions. Do they make nuclear scientists carry EOI?
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
Wrong. Only those sports that are considered professional. Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?
How about OSU vs OU. Those games ARE taxed.
How about merchandise? Food?
Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?
You're spinning your wheels now.
Huh?
Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes. It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.
The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.
The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment. I've heard yes, and also NO.
The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales. OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.
You simply do not know, Goldilocks.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
In that case, there is a Taco Cabana located nearby the current Driller's stadium. They serve nachos, don't they? And Target has pretzels and popcorn. They even sell peanuts. Lowe's has a hot dog stand in the parking lot.
It's a shame that there is so much competition. How will they ever survive?
You can buy all the above at the Walgreens at 15th & Yale just outside left field. You can even buy a small Hibachi grill, charcoal and lighter fluid. How did the Drillers make it there so long? Good point Rob [}:)]
Now I'm thinking perhaps YOU haven't been to a game.
Notice the sign at Drillers Stadium:
NO OUTSIDE FOOD OR DRINK ALLOWED.
Feel free to sit in the Walgreen Parking lot with your Hibachi, and listen to the play by play announcer.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Huh?
Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes. It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.
The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.
The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment. I've heard yes, and also NO.
Please keep up with the conversation. Nobody said anything about Ad Valorem taxes. In fact, this topic was specifically discussed at the council meeting which you did not attend.
Perhaps all that radiation poisoning is making you hear voices in your head?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
Did anyone catch this?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Now we know why Pooh-Bear wants the Drillers to move to Jenks. We also know why he also opposes any development downtown, midtown, or elsewhere in the city.
His intentions aren't honorable as he would like other posters to believe. His arguments are purely based on the fact of convenience to him.
Am I your favorite poster?
Wow.
Since the geographic center of Tulsa is 41st and Yale, and NOT downtown, methinks that the downtown arena will not be convenient for the majority of citizens of Tulsa, Bixby, Jenks, Glenpool and south Broken Arrow.
I'm in GOOD company.
Al Jerkins told me one time that "if you paid to get into a Driller's game, you need to have your head examined."
Concessions are taxable, as well as souvenirs. That's where the real revenue is, not the gate. Why do you think they do so many free gate admission promotions? To get the real revenue.
Nice try, but weak. You are starting to wander off into the area of errors and omissions. Do they make nuclear scientists carry EOI?
I agree with you:
Their business model has their REAL revenue coming from food and concession sales.
Therefore, it is COUNTER-INTUITIVE that locating the stadium adjacent to an active food/entertainment venue, a.k.a. the Brady District, will HELP the Drillers sell MORE food and concessions.
They will sell LESS.
People who consume food, drinks, or alcohol in the Brady entertainment district before the game will HURT Stadium food/drink sales.
Period.
Everyone can't pack it away like RecycleMichael.
Therefore, Lamson's business model is either a side deal with the construction company, or he's raising ticket prices.
Possibly the local Oligarch Families fronting the $30 million for development of the adjacent areas around the stadium have him in for a cut of the action.
An undisclosed SIDE DEAL.
There is no other ECONOMIC way to make money at the stadium?
Television Rights? Not for AA.
Radio broadcast? Already covered.
Gosh, some entrepreneurial street vendor may start selling "authentic" Driller's baseball caps for 1/2 PRICE RIGHT ACROSS the street from the stadium.
Ouch! That will hurt stadium concession sales.
Ouch, OUCH!
I think friendly bear is too simple for this conversation. He can't understand that having the stadium part of a thriving entertainment district is a good business plan.
He is obsessed with the food portion of the business and where people eat. I think it is because he is trying to come up with a plan to steal picnic baskets. Bears have been known to do that.
Instead, in his animal sized bear brain, he decides it must be for some other reason the Drillers want a new ballpark downtown.
Sorry bear. I'll take the business mind of Chuck Lamson over your rabid and delusional thoughts any day.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
Wrong. Only those sports that are considered professional. Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?
How about OSU vs OU. Those games ARE taxed.
How about merchandise? Food?
Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?
You're spinning your wheels now.
Huh?
Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes. It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.
The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.
The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment. I've heard yes, and also NO.
The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales. OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.
You simply do not know, Goldilocks.
OK, now you think I'm Gold....you need to check your vision or something. I was not talking about ad-valorem taxes, I was talking specficially to the misguided information you gave about sales taxes as they apply to tickets for sports events. Sales tax by law cannot be assessed to tickets for professional sports events. This includes such things as minor league baseball and higher. Since college sports aren't professional, or anything labeled amateur, they CAN be taxed.
I also spoke to the extra tax the city will receive due to the stadium being on city land.
You may need to go take a nap, tired Bear.
FB- I doubt there would be a change in concession sales. Many people eat at home before a game, that doesn't change a thing, now does it?
It's a good business model, you seem to be the only person in Tulsa who does not agree.
FWIW, I was tongue-in-cheek talking about a family sitting in the Walgreen's parking lot cooking out. I'm quite well aware you don't bring your own food or drink into a Driller's game except early in the season when it's not out of place to wear a large jacket. [;)]
Bottom line is, there's no shortage of drive throughs to and from the ballpark in any direction from the present ballpark.
Another weak argument. Horse is out of the barn, quit complaining bear.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think friendly bear is too simple for this conversation. He can't understand that having the stadium part of a thriving entertainment district is a good business plan.
He is obsessed with the food portion of the business and where people eat. I think it is because he is trying to come up with a plan to steal picnic baskets. Bears have been known to do that.
Instead, in his animal sized bear brain, he decides it must be for some other reason the Drillers want a new ballpark downtown.
Sorry bear. I'll take the business mind of Chuck Lamson over your rabid and delusional thoughts any day.
On the SURFACE, it is NOT a good business plan for Lamson.
It may be the re-genesis of a new downtown. This is the fifth effort I'm aware of that been the re-genesis of downtown.
Moving city hall to OTC was the last folly.
Before that the BOK Arena?
Want more?
Do we need to go over those flops again?
Follow the logic:
Smaller Stadium = FEWER customers.
Maybe higher prices tickets = LESS ticket sales.
COMPETING entertainment venues NEARBY for sales of food and drink, his main operating revenue source.
The County is practically GIVING him the stadium now out at the Fairgrounds. That's a GREAT deal.
He's gotta get the vigorish from somewhere in the new deal.
Side-deal probably. Stadium Partners, L.P. with the contractor(s)??
Or, a share of store-fronts surrounding the stadium funded from the Oligarchia Familias.
It isn't coming from TV rights?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
You lose.
So sorry.
Thanks for playing.
Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks. But, it has stayed in busines.
Lamson knows it is there. Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?
The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment. The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.
Anyway, your argument on this is really poor. The model has worked all over the country. You have no counter-examples. Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.
So, you're wrong.
Didn't get it right.
Way off base.
Incorrect.
You lose.
False.
Fail.
No.
[:O]
Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets. Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.
Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium. He'll be WORSE off unless:
1) He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.
2) He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan. Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.
3) He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.
Where's he gonna make the $$?
Concessions.
Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:
You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".
It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.
Available from www.amazon.com
Enjoy your education.
Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand. New stadiums always attract fans. Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.
You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed. You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply. I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks. You have no counterexamples. You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.
You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal. If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.
We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool. They don't sell the place out after the first few games. Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000. There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S. Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.
Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions. You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off. We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.
The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd. The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks. Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert. If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.
Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood. Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options. Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment. It's his business decision to make.
If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it. The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district. Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.
Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea. Any argument to the contrary is crap.
You lost.
We win.
We're happy.
I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.
When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.
Please shut up now.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
Wrong. Only those sports that are considered professional. Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?
How about OSU vs OU. Those games ARE taxed.
How about merchandise? Food?
Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?
You're spinning your wheels now.
Huh?
Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes. It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.
The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.
The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment. I've heard yes, and also NO.
The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales. OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.
You simply do not know, Goldilocks.
OK, now you think I'm Gold....you need to check your vision or something. I was not talking about ad-valorem taxes, I was talking specficially to the misguided information you gave about sales taxes as they apply to tickets for sports events. Sales tax by law cannot be assessed to tickets for professional sports events. This includes such things as minor league baseball and higher. Since college sports aren't professional, or anything labeled amateur, they CAN be taxed.
I also spoke to the extra tax the city will receive due to the stadium being on city land.
You may need to go take a nap, tired Bear.
You refer to "county AND city tax" WITHOUT specifying the TYPE of tax, and it's MY fault I assumed Ad Valorem?
There is no Ticket sales tax collected at Drillers game. Period.
I never thought there were.
I think someone did.
The new stadium, being owned by a Title 60 Public Trust, MAY be subject to a BID assessment.
That has not been adjudicated.
Please refrain from twisting my analysis.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
This just proves how little you know about anything.
Why do you post if you are so stupid?
Are you just wasting people's time?
There is no exchange of ideas. You are just throwing up all these crappy arguments, none of which stick.
I never once said the tickets lead to sales tax.
My point about sales tax is a direct line from Bill Christiansen, who said during the debate on this stadium proposal (if you lived in Tulsa, you could have watched in on tv), that the Drillers create about $100K (if I recall right) in sales tax for the city every year. I never said it had a thing to do with tickets. The sales tax comes from concessions and merchandise, as far as I know. But, it was one of the more eloquent and important points of that discussion -- voting against the measure would have meant $100,000 less a year for services the city already struyggles to provide.
You are just a massive failure at everything.
Poor FB.
[V]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
You lose.
So sorry.
Thanks for playing.
Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks. But, it has stayed in busines.
Lamson knows it is there. Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?
The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment. The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.
Anyway, your argument on this is really poor. The model has worked all over the country. You have no counter-examples. Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.
So, you're wrong.
Didn't get it right.
Way off base.
Incorrect.
You lose.
False.
Fail.
No.
[:O]
Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets. Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.
Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium. He'll be WORSE off unless:
1) He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.
2) He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan. Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.
3) He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.
Where's he gonna make the $$?
Concessions.
Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:
You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".
It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.
Available from www.amazon.com
Enjoy your education.
Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand. New stadiums always attract fans. Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.
You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed. You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply. I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks. You have no counterexamples. You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.
You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal. If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.
We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool. They don't sell the place out after the first few games. Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000. There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S. Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.
Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions. You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off. We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.
The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd. The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks. Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert. If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.
Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood. Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options. Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment. It's his business decision to make.
If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it. The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district. Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.
Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea. Any argument to the contrary is crap.
You lost.
We win.
We're happy.
I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.
When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.
Please shut up now.
Wow, naming your first Stadium bowel movement after a TulsaNow Forum member.
What an honor.
Did they run out of Dial soap at Tulsa Boy's Home to wash out that potty mouth?
OH, and did I mention Economics 101:
Raise Ticket Price = Less Ticket Sales.
Basic Econ.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think friendly bear is too simple for this conversation. He can't understand that having the stadium part of a thriving entertainment district is a good business plan.
He is obsessed with the food portion of the business and where people eat. I think it is because he is trying to come up with a plan to steal picnic baskets. Bears have been known to do that.
Instead, in his animal sized bear brain, he decides it must be for some other reason the Drillers want a new ballpark downtown.
Sorry bear. I'll take the business mind of Chuck Lamson over your rabid and delusional thoughts any day.
Post of the day. What a whacko.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
You lose.
So sorry.
Thanks for playing.
Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks. But, it has stayed in busines.
Lamson knows it is there. Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?
The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment. The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.
Anyway, your argument on this is really poor. The model has worked all over the country. You have no counter-examples. Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.
So, you're wrong.
Didn't get it right.
Way off base.
Incorrect.
You lose.
False.
Fail.
No.
[:O]
Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets. Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.
Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium. He'll be WORSE off unless:
1) He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.
2) He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan. Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.
3) He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.
Where's he gonna make the $$?
Concessions.
Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:
You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".
It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.
Available from www.amazon.com
Enjoy your education.
Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand. New stadiums always attract fans. Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.
You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed. You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply. I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks. You have no counterexamples. You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.
You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal. If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.
We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool. They don't sell the place out after the first few games. Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000. There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S. Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.
Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions. You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off. We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.
The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd. The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks. Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert. If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.
Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood. Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options. Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment. It's his business decision to make.
If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it. The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district. Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.
Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea. Any argument to the contrary is crap.
You lost.
We win.
We're happy.
I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.
When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.
Please shut up now.
Wow, naming your first Stadium bowel movement after a TulsaNow Forum member.
What an honor.
Did they run out of Dial soap at Tulsa Boy's Home to wash out that potty mouth?
If I lived at the Boy's Home (real classy to make fun of orphans, btw), I'd trade my annual Christmas present in for a tax credit to go to you'd quit this nonsense. Then, I'd go to the stadium and do the same thing.
Econ II: utility. You charge what people are willing to pay. All stadiums sell more tickets when they are new. You can make better margins that way. (Again, you say ticket sales aren't the relevant factor to look at, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.) LOL at Friendly Bear's simplistic understanding of economics.
You offer no productive material for these conversations. You repeat lies, attack good people, and cry like a baby when the tables are turned. You don't even live in Tulsa. You just want attention.
And because you want attention so much, I figured my friendly bear offering at the new stadium was the only part of my life worth me giving toward your need for attention.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium. Great. Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.
The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.
Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?
At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.
Along with Beer.
Common items sold as well in the Brady District.
I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.
We'll soon see............in 2010.
Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?
Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?
Or the pizza for that matter?
Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).
But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.
FB is clueless.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:
A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.
Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.
Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.
Pizza.
I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District. With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably. Mr. Lamson will love that.
Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?
Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?
221 East Brady.
What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?
Sounds like....
Grady?
Shady?
Cady?
Brady?
[:X]
You lose.
So sorry.
Thanks for playing.
Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks. But, it has stayed in busines.
Lamson knows it is there. Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?
The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment. The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.
Anyway, your argument on this is really poor. The model has worked all over the country. You have no counter-examples. Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.
So, you're wrong.
Didn't get it right.
Way off base.
Incorrect.
You lose.
False.
Fail.
No.
[:O]
Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets. Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.
Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium. He'll be WORSE off unless:
1) He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.
2) He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan. Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.
3) He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.
Where's he gonna make the $$?
Concessions.
Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:
You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".
It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.
Available from www.amazon.com
Enjoy your education.
Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand. New stadiums always attract fans. Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.
You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed. You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply. I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks. You have no counterexamples. You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.
You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal. If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.
We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool. They don't sell the place out after the first few games. Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000. There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S. Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.
Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions. You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off. We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.
The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd. The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks. Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert. If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.
Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood. Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options. Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment. It's his business decision to make.
If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it. The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district. Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.
Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea. Any argument to the contrary is crap.
You lost.
We win.
We're happy.
I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.
When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.
Please shut up now.
Wow, naming your first Stadium bowel movement after a TulsaNow Forum member.
What an honor.
Did they run out of Dial soap at Tulsa Boy's Home to wash out that potty mouth?
If I lived at the Boy's Home (real classy to make fun of orphans, btw), I'd trade my annual Christmas present in for a tax credit to go to you'd quit this nonsense. Then, I'd go to the stadium and do the same thing.
Econ II: utility. You charge what people are willing to pay. All stadiums sell more tickets when they are new. You can make better margins that way. (Again, you say ticket sales aren't the relevant factor to look at, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.) LOL at Friendly Bear's simplistic understanding of economics.
You offer no productive material for these conversations. You repeat lies, attack good people, and cry like a baby when the tables are turned. You don't even live in Tulsa. You just want attention.
And because you want attention so much, I figured my friendly bear offering at the new stadium was the only part of my life worth me giving toward your need for attention.
[:X]
Simply logical to hypothesize you were an Orphan housed at the Tulsa Boys Home.
Couldn't be saying what you say here, and have had a mother.
If you did, wouldn't she be REAL proud of Goldilocks if she could read your posts?
[:O]
I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.
Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.
Where are we? Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses? Talking about mothers?
Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
FB:
Driller's stadium is adequate. It is bought and paid for.
BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
The Driller's are moving. The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice. Period. End of story.
Your point on the existing stadium is moot. You're just digging a hole.
Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2. Either A) or B).
We need to ask what is behind Door #3.
Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.
Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.
He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks. If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.
Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.
$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.
Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.
Win-Win.
You have been proven wrong here as well.
There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.
Along with its sales tax.
All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.
Give it up.
You're wrong.
[:O]
Sales tax?
Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes. By state law.
Big fat loss.
Wrong. Only those sports that are considered professional. Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?
How about OSU vs OU. Those games ARE taxed.
How about merchandise? Food?
Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?
You're spinning your wheels now.
Huh?
Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes. It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.
The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.
The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment. I've heard yes, and also NO.
The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales. OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.
You simply do not know, Goldilocks.
OK, now you think I'm Gold....you need to check your vision or something. I was not talking about ad-valorem taxes, I was talking specficially to the misguided information you gave about sales taxes as they apply to tickets for sports events. Sales tax by law cannot be assessed to tickets for professional sports events. This includes such things as minor league baseball and higher. Since college sports aren't professional, or anything labeled amateur, they CAN be taxed.
I also spoke to the extra tax the city will receive due to the stadium being on city land.
You may need to go take a nap, tired Bear.
You refer to "county AND city tax" WITHOUT specifying the TYPE of tax, and it's MY fault I assumed Ad Valorem?
There is no Ticket sales tax collected at Drillers game. Period.
I never thought there were.
I think someone did.
The new stadium, being owned by a Title 60 Public Trust, MAY be subject to a BID assessment.
That has not been adjudicated.
Please refrain from twisting my analysis.
Yes, from Drillers games. You never specified which. There are more events at the stadium than just Driller Games. Have you forgotten about baseball bedlam. Those ARE taxed.
I'm not twisting your analysis; you're doing that just fine on your own.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.
Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.
Where are we? Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses? Talking about mothers?
Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.
[:X]
While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.
I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.
There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance. Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?
Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:
A CONSCIENCE.
Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age. We have Laws now, instead.
Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:
RESPONSIBLY.
Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.
Much too late now to change.
Just surmise.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Or, change the subject back to the Topic:
The downtown Drillers Stadium?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.
Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.
Where are we? Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses? Talking about mothers?
Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.
[:X]
While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.
I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.
There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance. Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?
Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:
A CONSCIENCE.
Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age. We have Laws now, instead.
Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:
RESPONSIBLY.
Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.
Much too late now to change.
Just surmise.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Or, change the subject back to the Topic:
The downtown Drillers Stadium?
Rest assured, my family life was very great growing up.
I won't give you any other info than that -- you won't even give me a zip code.
I'm pretty sure you were raised by senile lemurs.
Might explain why you argue like one.
You personally attack public and private figures all the time.
I turn the tables on you and you cry.
You don't want to discuss political issues.
You just make crap up.
I'm here to to point out your crap and throw it back at you.
You don't act like a man.
If you were, you'd tell us where you lived.
You wouldn't hide behind a screen name to attack people you don't know in a city you don't live in.
I've given you multiple opportunities to reveal some basic information, but like the fatherless child you are, you are cower away.
But for you, it's not about getting facts right.
It's about saying stupid stuff you know isn't right.
You can keep making up stuff about me.
I'm not going away.
Maybe you should find a new hobby.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.
Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.
Where are we? Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses? Talking about mothers?
Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.
[:X]
While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.
I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.
There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance. Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?
Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:
A CONSCIENCE.
Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age. We have Laws now, instead.
Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:
RESPONSIBLY.
Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.
Much too late now to change.
Just surmise.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Or, change the subject back to the Topic:
The downtown Drillers Stadium?
Rest assured, my family life was very great growing up.
[}:)]
Sure fooled me.
Back on Topic now?
Seriously Bear. I think you are really upset by this so I want to respect your urge to discuss it. But you are making it difficult.
1) Moving the Driller's was not a threat, it was an inevitability. They would be in Jenks. Closer to South Tulsa, yes. But why not put all our assets in Jenks so it can be closer to South Tulsa then? The argument simply fails.
If we want the Driller's to stay in Tulsa, a new stadium is required. But that argument is not the primary reason, just a catalyst for action.
2) Driller's Stadium is an adequate facility to play baseball in. But that is all. It is not an adequate destination to draw in people. The location is not adequate to make a real night of it. The experience as a whole is to go to a baseball game and go home and nothing more.
Great ballparks do more. Not only architecturally and for a game experience, but for entertainment. Going out to eat, a concert, the bars. Activity and life in the area.
I'm tired of Tulsa being adequate. That's a "C" average and it's not good enough.
3) The financing is really a non-issue. I want it to be scrutinized but as proposed it is fairly sound. As many property owners are on the side of the city in the injunction as are against it.
We've crunched the numbers on all levels. For property owners. For County/City residents. The funding can't be your real area of concern as it is insignificant to you (you don't go downtown by admission, so the plight of business there is of little concern and you're share is insignificant).
4) Then it is clear that you are not familiar with the area. There is entertainment already in place. People are willing to go downtown for entertainment and there is TONS to do. And certainly another venue will only serve to improve that.
5) The "business" angle is purely made up. The argument is simply weak. Every ballpark pointed to as a success has development around it serving food and beverages. From Wrigley, to Busch, to Bricktown and Isotopes stadium. At our level Springfield's new park.
6) Do you live here? This question keeps coming up and you keep failing to answer it. I can't help but wonder why you know so little about the actual ground level goings on.
If you don't live in Tulsa, why do you care so much? If you live in South Tulsa, do you really just not want to pay the $20 a year it might cost you?
- - -
Basically Bear, just state your argument. You're all over the board and most of your arguments are extremly weak. I imagine there is something else going on. Just don't trust government with more money? Hate downtown? Don't want to pay your $20?
I'm happy to discuss it with you, but the current discussion is just worthless.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.
Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.
Where are we? Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses? Talking about mothers?
Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.
[:X]
While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.
I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.
There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance. Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?
Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:
A CONSCIENCE.
Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age. We have Laws now, instead.
Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:
RESPONSIBLY.
Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.
Much too late now to change.
Just surmise.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Or, change the subject back to the Topic:
The downtown Drillers Stadium?
Rest assured, my family life was very great growing up.
[}:)]
Sure fooled me.
Back on Topic now?
What topic?
I'll wait for your next tinfoil hat moment.
This weekend, I'll be in downtown celebrating D-fest and I'll drink a beer in your honor, knowing that it pisses off ignorant slobs like yourself.
Poor FB.
He feels left out.
[:O]
This discussion is really going nowhere.
Gold and Friendly Bear, if you care to continue this discussion would you please edit down quoted text in your posts. For those who are still following your sparring match, it's tedious to follow when the last three or four posts are quoted in their entirety.
Thank You,
Moderator
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Seriously Bear. I think you are really upset by this so I want to respect your urge to discuss it. But you are making it difficult.
1) Moving the Driller's was not a threat, it was an inevitability. They would be in Jenks. Closer to South Tulsa, yes. But why not put all our assets in Jenks so it can be closer to South Tulsa then? The argument simply fails.
If we want the Driller's to stay in Tulsa, a new stadium is required. But that argument is not the primary reason, just a catalyst for action.
2) Driller's Stadium is an adequate facility to play baseball in. But that is all. It is not an adequate destination to draw in people. The location is not adequate to make a real night of it. The experience as a whole is to go to a baseball game and go home and nothing more.
Great ballparks do more. Not only architecturally and for a game experience, but for entertainment. Going out to eat, a concert, the bars. Activity and life in the area.
I'm tired of Tulsa being adequate. That's a "C" average and it's not good enough.
3) The financing is really a non-issue. I want it to be scrutinized but as proposed it is fairly sound. As many property owners are on the side of the city in the injunction as are against it.
We've crunched the numbers on all levels. For property owners. For County/City residents. The funding can't be your real area of concern as it is insignificant to you (you don't go downtown by admission, so the plight of business there is of little concern and you're share is insignificant).
4) Then it is clear that you are not familiar with the area. There is entertainment already in place. People are willing to go downtown for entertainment and there is TONS to do. And certainly another venue will only serve to improve that.
5) The "business" angle is purely made up. The argument is simply weak. Every ballpark pointed to as a success has development around it serving food and beverages. From Wrigley, to Busch, to Bricktown and Isotopes stadium. At our level Springfield's new park.
6) Do you live here? This question keeps coming up and you keep failing to answer it. I can't help but wonder why you know so little about the actual ground level goings on.
If you don't live in Tulsa, why do you care so much? If you live in South Tulsa, do you really just not want to pay the $20 a year it might cost you?
- - -
Basically Bear, just state your argument. You're all over the board and most of your arguments are extremly weak. I imagine there is something else going on. Just don't trust government with more money? Hate downtown? Don't want to pay your $20?
I'm happy to discuss it with you, but the current discussion is just worthless.
Has Gold hacked your TulsaNow password?
You're starting to sound like him/it. That is disquieting.
No one's "Upset" on this end. This Forum is a public discussion on the Topic of the Stadium. That's simply what I've been trying to do.
That's been getting harder to do with serial personalized attacks coming my way.
I'm getting the feeling someone doesn't like WHAT I'm saying. Not just how it's being said.
In case you haven't figured it out, Lamson's threat of a Drillers move to Jenks was a smoke screen coordinated with those who like to build things, and with those who like to build things downtown.
Fact:
Population of Jenks is:
Under 15,000.
Population of Tulsa: 380,000
Jenks' miniscule population is going to front a tax to build a new stadium?
Would the JENKS voters approve it?
Jenks SCHOOL District, which includes the city limits of Jenks, is already the most highly taxed area in the entire state Oklahoma for Ad Valorem/Property Taxes.
They want MORE taxes?
Maybe a new Jenks Driller Stadium Sales Tax?
I certainly don't think that would be certain.
My city councilor actually voted against it. He didn't have the time to analyze getting a data dump on him at the last minute, or even all the information to analyze with new information coming from Boylan and Lybarger at the last minute, and he said so right during the city council meeting.
In their Rush to Tax with a new BID, the stadium promoter DETAILS sort of got overlooked....
Downtown property owners inside the IDL are going to get taxed three ways:
1) Huge increase from what they pay on the current mainmall BID.
2) City of Tulsa property will be subject to the BID assessment.
3) COUNTY property will be subject to the BID Assessment.
4) Will STATE property also be subject to the BID assessment? We'll see.
Anyone know?
Everyone else in Tulsa County will pay for items 2), 3) and 4) above.
There was insufficient time for citizen participation and citizen analysis of this new tax.
Why weren't all of these specifics provided to the city council before they were rushed into voting for something which had a artificial deadline created by Mayor Taylor, Lybarger and Lamson, which IMMEDIATELY after approval got POSTPONED, and may be postponed again with the melt down corporate sponsor Sem Group?
Our city streets are Grade D heading to an F.
Only 4 of 22 of our public pools are open.
The new BOK Arena will open a black-hole in our city operating budget.
And someone thinks that building a new stadium will solve any problems?
Maybe just one: Manhattan's cash flow problems?
You didn't answer any of my questions nor direct attention to my other areas of concern. I did not attack you in any personal way what-so-ever and the insinuation is a pathetic attempt to avoid all the valid issues I raise in your arguments. I pointed out how and why your arguments are weak and asked you to clarify - that is not a personal attack.
I keep trying to give you an avenue to get back in the discussion on a meaningful level. Instead you dig your hole deeper and deeper.
You're argument has now changed to:
1) The stadium plan is too expensive and Jenks won't fund it.
We are left to assume that we are then to reject the Driller's plan, rely on Jenks to reject the tax proposal, assume no other funding goes through and no other offers come to the table, and then accept the current facility as adequate.
Even after I fill in your argument for you, it's still weak.
2) You then switch gears and argue:
Our streets suck, fix them first!
Which is in essence a straw man argument you have used for everything. BOk Center, River, and now a new stadium. The argument address none the issues involved in THIS transaction and is again, weak.
- - -
Please go back and try to address the litany of issues I raised. I am being perfectly reasonable here. It might help to jot down your arguments and phrase them in an organized manner. Maybe numbered with paragraphs for explanations?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
QuoteHas Gold hacked your TulsaNow password?
You're starting to sound like him/it. That is disquieting.
No one's "Upset" on this end. This Forum is a public discussion on the Topic of the Stadium. That's simply what I've been trying to do.
That's been getting harder to do with serial personalized attacks coming my way.
I'm getting the feeling someone doesn't like WHAT I'm saying. Not just how it's being said.
In case you haven't figured it out, Lamson's threat of a Drillers move to Jenks was a smoke screen coordinated with those who like to build things, and with those who like to build things downtown.
Fact:
Population of Jenks is:
Under 15,000.
Population of Tulsa: 380,000
Jenks' miniscule population is going to front a tax to build a new stadium?
Would the JENKS voters approve it?
Jenks SCHOOL District, which includes the city limits of Jenks, is already the most highly taxed area in the entire state Oklahoma for Ad Valorem/Property Taxes.
They want MORE taxes?
Maybe a new Jenks Driller Stadium Sales Tax?
I certainly don't think that would be certain.
My city councilor actually voted against it. He didn't have the time to analyze getting a data dump on him at the last minute, or even all the information to analyze with new information coming from Boylan and Lybarger at the last minute, and he said so right during the city council meeting.
In their Rush to Tax with a new BID, the stadium promoter DETAILS sort of got overlooked....
Downtown property owners inside the IDL are going to get taxed three ways:
1) Huge increase from what they pay on the current mainmall BID.
2) City of Tulsa property will be subject to the BID assessment.
3) COUNTY property will be subject to the BID Assessment.
4) Will STATE property also be subject to the BID assessment? We'll see.
Anyone know?
Everyone else in Tulsa County will pay for items 2), 3) and 4) above.
There was insufficient time for citizen participation and citizen analysis of this new tax.
Why weren't all of these specifics provided to the city council before they were rushed into voting for something which had a artificial deadline created by Mayor Taylor, Lybarger and Lamson, which IMMEDIATELY after approval got POSTPONED, and may be postponed again with the melt down corporate sponsor Sem Group?
Our city streets are Grade D heading to an F.
Only 4 of 22 of our public pools are open.
The new BOK Arena will open a black-hole in our city operating budget.
And someone thinks that building a new stadium will solve any problems?
Maybe just one: Manhattan's cash flow problems?
They aren't your streets. You don't live here.
I'm sick of you ruining TulsaNow with your awful personal attacks on talented Tulsans and looney tune conspiracy theories.
You very rarely subsstantiate your claims -- when you get called out on them, you just throw out another terrible argument/ crazy, unsubstantiated theory.
Jenks had a plan to get the stadium. The Drillers had talked to Jenks for a couple of years. Even if you don't buy the chance that they move to Jenks, there is another risk that Lamson was going to move them elsewhere -- with the Texas league being so small, there being nother nearby leagues, and Tulsa having no real chance of working in AAA, there was a risk we'd have no team at all.
You have no response to the argument that the county is eventually going to kick the Drillers out of the fairgrounds nor any response to the fact that the facility is no longer adequate for the Texas League.
Manhattan has no cash flow problems -- please substantiate that. Again, when you are wrong you just make crap up. That's pathetic.
All nine councilers were in favor of the plan. The three who voted against it has ample time to review the package and travel with the mayor ands Lamson to other facilities. If they can't do the busy job of city council, perhaps they should get out of the way. The "not enouggh information" line is such a lie -- they knew the city had a July 15 deadline for quite awhile. Ultimately, their argument is with the City Charter and a desire to have more oversight.
Building the new stadium won't solve some of the infrastructure issues facing the city, such as bad urban planning, underperforming schools, terrible public transport, and the roads. But NO ONE claimed it would. Those are bigger, more complicated issues.
This stadium is a homerun, on the other hand, and all nine councilers ultimately favored the idea and location. It will help bring more people. and different types of people, to a growing downtown district. It means at least $100K in sales tax a year to a city with a stagnat budget (probably more). It's not a panacea and was never intended as such.
FB, that argument is piss poor, even for you.
You are really desperate. But when you don't live in a city, don't follow the development and politics, and have a stick up your anal cavity (that looks like one of the Lortons), I guess that's all we can expect.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
QuoteHas Gold hacked your TulsaNow password?
You're starting to sound like him/it. That is disquieting.
And someone thinks that building a new stadium will solve any problems?
Maybe just one: Manhattan's cash flow problems?
They aren't your streets. You don't live here.
I'm sick of you ruining TulsaNow ..... you don't live in a city, don't follow the development and politics, and have a stick up your anal cavity (that looks like one of the Lortons)
[:X]
I'm happy to hear that you know that Manhattan has no cash flow problems.
How do you know?
They are a private company.
You have REVIEWED their financial information?
Interesting.
Which Rooney are you?
It's my surmise they need another tax gravy train to be served up in their slop trough, to replace the BOK Arena whose payday stops for them in September.
That's what it's REALLY all about....
The Friendly Bear has died.
He doesn't address points, changes the subject, interjects theories with no basis and then chastises responses without sources, and repeats losing arguments OVER AND OVER.
I tried to save him. But he didn't listen.
Here's a picture of a dead bear:
(http://www.alaskatrophyadventures.com/DSCN0200_006.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[
I'm happy to hear that you know that Manhattan has no cash flow problems.
How do you know?
They are a private company.
You have REVIEWED their financial information?
Interesting.
Which Rooney are you?
It's my surmise they need another tax gravy train to be served up in their slop trough, to replace the BOK Arena whose payday stops for them in September.
That's what it's REALLY all about....
Don't turn this nonsense around on me.
You have no idea what their financials look like either, unless you moonlight as an out of state attorney or accountant -- at which point, you just breached a lot of rules.
They are a billion dollar company last I heard. I seriously doubt they'll be hurting when the arena is finished or that the stadium is the next thing they need to stay afloat. To wit, you can go here to find all their current projects -- they seem to be doing just fine. http://www.manhattanconstruction.com/projects__work_in_progress.htm
Do you just like making crap up? I'm not a Rooney.
Please, come back when you have a real point people would want to read. This drivel act gets really old and discourages people from posting.
Poor FB.
You're so deep in this you can't quit. But news to you: everyone thinks you're crazy and is tired of the act (it's an act becauasse no one is really this stupid).
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[
I'm happy to hear that you know that Manhattan has no cash flow problems.
How do you know?
They are a private company.
You have REVIEWED their financial information?
Interesting.
Which Rooney are you?
It's my surmise they need another tax gravy train to be served up in their slop trough, to replace the BOK Arena whose payday stops for them in September.
That's what it's REALLY all about....
Don't turn this nonsense around on me.
You have no idea what their financials look like either, unless you moonlight as an out of state attorney or accountant -- at which point, you just breached a lot of rules.
They are a billion dollar company last I heard. I seriously doubt they'll be hurting when the arena is finished or that the stadium is the next thing they need to stay afloat. To wit, you can go here to find all their current projects -- they seem to be doing just fine. http://www.manhattanconstruction.com/projects__work_in_progress.htm
Do you just like making crap up? I'm not a Rooney.
Please, come back when you have a real point people would want to read. This drivel act gets really old and discourages people from posting.
Poor FB.
You're so deep in this you can't quit. But news to you: everyone thinks you're crazy and is tired of the act (it's an act becauasse no one is really this stupid).
[:O]
How do you KNOW Manhattan has NO cash flow problems?
You said it.
How?
And, you think that everyone thinks I'm crazy.
Maybe they think that.
Some I suspect think I'm right about the real reasons for the downtown stadium proposal.
And, maybe a few other things about happenings hereabout.
There are many more lurkers than posters on this forum.
They are learning much about the Banana Republic of Tulsa............
And, if they are patient, they may learn more.
BOK Arena
Several St. Francis projects
St. johns
A Miami Casino
Schusterman Expansion
The Dallas Cowboys new stadium
Atlanta International Airport
2 Atlanta Schools
21 Story Apartment in Atlanta
Parking Garage for SC Medical College
A new PAC in SC
A Casino in Louisiana
350,000 sq ft office building in Houston
Pasadena Police Station
OKC University Building
OSBI Forensics Building
Native American Cultural Center
30 Story Building in Tampa
Several Schools in Tampa
Barracks in Arlington
A hospital in DC
PSTOC Lab in DC
Andrews Airforce Base center
NASA Exploration Building (DC area)
George Mason academic building
A hospital in Puerto Rico
A 4 Star hotel in Curacao
Those are the list of ACTIVE projects that I can find. Many eclipse the BOk in size, scope, and dollar value. Multiple projects in the Billion Dollar range.
Cash strapped or not, I don't see how donating $1mil to get the contract on Tulsa's little deal would be anything devious. Let alone save them from their cash strapped woes.
(http://www.arthropod.net/specimens/hides/images/lh310-gr.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
QuoteOriginally posted by Gold
Quote from:
How do you KNOW Manhattan has NO cash flow problems?
You said it.
How?
And, you think that everyone thinks I'm crazy.
Maybe they think that.
Some I suspect think I'm right about the real reasons for the downtown stadium proposal.
And, maybe a few other things about happenings hereabout.
There are many more lurkers than posters on this forum.
They are learning much about the Banana Republic of Tulsa............
And, if they are patient, they may learn more.
Again, you made the initial asertion that Manhattan needed the money. Are you really this stupid? Or are you just lazy to read what you already wrote? Maybe you forgot. I gave you a link that shows Manhattan appears to have plenty of business around the country. That's more than your lie about their balance sheet. Bottom line: you made the assertion and you are a total coward about proving it.
You run people off with terrible logic like this. It's no fun to have a conversation when the jerk, who doesn't live in Tulsa, just makes stuff up for the sake of attention. You're like John C. Reilly's character in Boogue Nights -- someone says something, you lie about whatever they said.
Example:
Poster: There is night life downtown.
FB: No there isn't. There is nothing down there.
It's just stupid. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. And in the process you ruin a lot of the conversation on here. We can't go anywhere if you keep throwing this crap out.
And you basically admit that point by going back to your Banana Rerpublic crap. No one learns anything from you, FB -- none of what you say is true. It's a farce. They learn from the responses.
You don't live in Tulsa. You don't what you are talking about. You suck at life.
[}:)
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
QuoteOriginally posted by Gold
Quote from:
How do you KNOW Manhattan has NO cash flow problems?
You said it.
How?
And, you think that everyone thinks I'm crazy.
Maybe they think that.
Some I suspect think I'm right about the real reasons for the downtown stadium proposal.
And, maybe a few other things about happenings hereabout.
There are many more lurkers than posters on this forum.
They are learning much about the Banana Republic of Tulsa............
And, if they are patient, they may learn more.
Again, you made the initial asertion that Manhattan needed the money. Are you really this stupid? Or are you just lazy to read what you already wrote? Maybe you forgot. I gave you a link that shows Manhattan appears to have plenty of business around the country. That's more than your lie about their balance sheet. Bottom line: you made the assertion and you are a total coward about proving it.
You run people off with terrible logic like this. It's no fun to have a conversation when the jerk, who doesn't live in Tulsa, just makes stuff up for the sake of attention. You're like John C. Reilly's character in Boogue Nights -- someone says something, you lie about whatever they said.
Example:
Poster: There is night life downtown.
FB: No there isn't. There is nothing down there.
It's just stupid. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. And in the process you ruin a lot of the conversation on here. We can't go anywhere if you keep throwing this crap out.
And you basically admit that point by going back to your Banana Rerpublic crap. No one learns anything from you, FB -- none of what you say is true. It's a farce. They learn from the responses.
You don't live in Tulsa. You don't what you are talking about. You suck at life.
[}:)
Isn't Cash Flow related to a company's Income Statement?
You referred to their Balance Sheet.
Sorry, that's Accounting 101.
Guess you missed that class.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Isn't Cash Flow related to a company's Income Statement?
You referred to their Balance Sheet.
Sorry, that's Accounting 101.
Guess you missed that class.
That has nothing to with anything. You said they needed the money. I asked you to support the point. You can't. Like everything else you spew on here.
You are such a pathetic man. You can't make a cogent point. You lie about where you live and your career. You refuse to support your points. You say completely hateful comments that are disruptive to the conversation.
And all you are left with is a cheap shot personal attack that doesn't mean anything. So what? You made an assertion about their finances that you can't support; not I.
You are a vile man and I hope bad things happen to you; but, I'm pretty sure they did a long time ago, because that's the only way someone becomes this much of an aho.
[:X]
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ucxi69kzMnA/R3brYuKViKI/AAAAAAAAACo/M_G8ZhtHWyM/december+29,+2007+026.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
You didn't answer any of my questions nor direct attention to my other areas of concern. I did not attack you in any personal way what-so-ever and the insinuation is a pathetic attempt to avoid all the valid issues I raise in your arguments. I pointed out how and why your arguments are weak and asked you to clarify - that is not a personal attack.
I keep trying to give you an avenue to get back in the discussion on a meaningful level. Instead you dig your hole deeper and deeper.
You're argument has now changed to:
1) The stadium plan is too expensive and Jenks won't fund it.
We are left to assume that we are then to reject the Driller's plan, rely on Jenks to reject the tax proposal, assume no other funding goes through and no other offers come to the table, and then accept the current facility as adequate.
Even after I fill in your argument for you, it's still weak.
2) You then switch gears and argue:
Our streets suck, fix them first!
Which is in essence a straw man argument you have used for everything. BOk Center, River, and now a new stadium. The argument address none the issues involved in THIS transaction and is again, weak.
- - -
Please go back and try to address the litany of issues I raised. I am being perfectly reasonable here. It might help to jot down your arguments and phrase them in an organized manner. Maybe numbered with paragraphs for explanations?
Bringing new and different points into the stream of a Political Forum dialogue is hardly changing the subject.
If you're making the rules here, and a point by point discussion WITHOUT additional points added or extended is against you're rules, then by all means, cite me in violation of CannonFodder's rules.
On June 28, I did in fact on this Political forum list 10 reasons that the Stadium was not good public policy.
Remember? Here they are:
1) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.
We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
2) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has lights.
It has good, sanitary, concessions.
It has functioning relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
3) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
4) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within easy walking distance.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the 'hood where Mrs. Kitty wants to build a new stadium.
5) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
6) Driller Stadium is not located right next to an oil refinery, a 6 lane expressway, or the 'hood.
7) If team owner Mr. Lamebrain wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
We can easily find another team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts.
8) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
9) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamebrain really wants competition for food and drink sales from the Blue Dome or Brady Districts.
Hmmmmh?
10) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making him money on the construction side?
Will he be a silent partner with the local construction cabal?
Likely JV name? Tulsa Stadium Builders?
I'm waiting to hear the stadium promoters offer their selling points.
BATTER-UP!
Remember?
Of course, the usual reaction to a point-by-point discussion is that a Forum dissenter will then Cherry-Pick answers to the comments that they prefer to respond to.
Or, give a generalized response against specific comments.
It's a debating tactic.
Whether it is fair or meets the CannonFodder posting requirements will be left to the viewership.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Bringing new and different points into the stream of a Political Forum dialogue is hardly changing the subject.
If you're making the rules here, and a point by point discussion WITHOUT additional points added or extended is against you're rules, then by all means, cite me in violation of CannonFodder's rules.
On June 28, I did in fact on this Political forum list 10 reasons that the Stadium was not good public policy.
Remember? Here they are:
1) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.
We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
2) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has lights.
It has good, sanitary, concessions.
It has functioning relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
3) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
4) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within easy walking distance.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the 'hood where Mrs. Kitty wants to build a new stadium.
5) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
6) Driller Stadium is not located right next to an oil refinery, a 6 lane expressway, or the 'hood.
7) If team owner Mr. Lamebrain wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
We can easily find another team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts.
8) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
9) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamebrain really wants competition for food and drink sales from the Blue Dome or Brady Districts.
Hmmmmh?
10) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making him money on the construction side?
Will he be a silent partner with the local construction cabal?
Likely JV name? Tulsa Stadium Builders?
I'm waiting to hear the stadium promoters offer their selling points.
BATTER-UP!
Remember?
Of course, the usual reaction to a point-by-point discussion is that a Forum dissenter will then Cherry-Pick answers to the comments that they prefer to respond to.
Or, give a generalized response against specific comments.
It's a debating tactic.
Whether it is fair or meets the CannonFodder posting requirements will be left to the viewership.
The vast majority of the viewership also thinks you are a joke. Yoo-hoo -- pretty much everyone is telling you how stupid you are.
All those points were specifically addressed.
You have proven yourself an idiot numerous times, with no ability to support your argument with basic facts about downtown. You just don't know what you are talking about. You said it before, but saying it again and again doesn't make it true. You were stupid then and you are stupid now. Give yourself a cookie.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Bringing new and different points into the stream of a Political Forum dialogue is hardly changing the subject.
If you're making the rules here, and a point by point discussion WITHOUT additional points added or extended is against you're rules, then by all means, cite me in violation of CannonFodder's rules.
On June 28, I did in fact on this Political forum list 10 reasons that the Stadium was not good public policy.
Remember? Here they are:
1) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.
We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
2) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has lights.
It has good, sanitary, concessions.
It has functioning relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
3) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
4) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within easy walking distance.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the 'hood where Mrs. Kitty wants to build a new stadium.
5) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
6) Driller Stadium is not located right next to an oil refinery, a 6 lane expressway, or the 'hood.
7) If team owner Mr. Lamebrain wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
We can easily find another team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts.
8) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
9) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamebrain really wants competition for food and drink sales from the Blue Dome or Brady Districts.
Hmmmmh?
10) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making him money on the construction side?
Will he be a silent partner with the local construction cabal?
Likely JV name? Tulsa Stadium Builders?
I'm waiting to hear the stadium promoters offer their selling points.
BATTER-UP!
Remember?
Of course, the usual reaction to a point-by-point discussion is that a Forum dissenter will then Cherry-Pick answers to the comments that they prefer to respond to.
Or, give a generalized response against specific comments.
It's a debating tactic.
Whether it is fair or meets the CannonFodder posting requirements will be left to the viewership.
The vast majority of the viewership also thinks you are a joke. Yoo-hoo -- pretty much everyone is telling you how stupid you are.
All those points were specifically addressed.
You have proven yourself an idiot numerous times, with no ability to support your argument with basic facts about downtown. You just don't know what you are talking about. You said it before, but saying it again and again doesn't make it true. You were stupid then and you are stupid now. Give yourself a cookie.
[}:)]
It was you who asserted that Manhattan has no Cash Flow problems.
I asked:
How do you know?
Regarding their list of active projects, competitively bid projects likely have a smaller, tighter profit margin for them.
Different than nice, juicy local Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust contracts awarded NON-COMPETITIVELY, wouldn't you think?
Even you should know that without the pressures of the competitive market place applied through competitive bidding, margins will tend to rise.
Because there is NO MARKETPLACE DISCIPLINE.
That's why Flintco and RooneyCo LOVE Oklahoma government building projects, especially Title 60 Public Trusts.
How HANDY!
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Bringing new and different points into the stream of a Political Forum dialogue is hardly changing the subject.
If you're making the rules here, and a point by point discussion WITHOUT additional points added or extended is against you're rules, then by all means, cite me in violation of CannonFodder's rules.
On June 28, I did in fact on this Political forum list 10 reasons that the Stadium was not good public policy.
Remember? Here they are:
1) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.
We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
2) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has lights.
It has good, sanitary, concessions.
It has functioning relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
3) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
4) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within easy walking distance.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the 'hood where Mrs. Kitty wants to build a new stadium.
5) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
6) Driller Stadium is not located right next to an oil refinery, a 6 lane expressway, or the 'hood.
7) If team owner Mr. Lamebrain wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
We can easily find another team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts.
8) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
9) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamebrain really wants competition for food and drink sales from the Blue Dome or Brady Districts.
Hmmmmh?
10) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making him money on the construction side?
Will he be a silent partner with the local construction cabal?
Likely JV name? Tulsa Stadium Builders?
I'm waiting to hear the stadium promoters offer their selling points.
BATTER-UP!
Remember?
Of course, the usual reaction to a point-by-point discussion is that a Forum dissenter will then Cherry-Pick answers to the comments that they prefer to respond to.
Or, give a generalized response against specific comments.
It's a debating tactic.
Whether it is fair or meets the CannonFodder posting requirements will be left to the viewership.
The vast majority of the viewership also thinks you are a joke. Yoo-hoo -- pretty much everyone is telling you how stupid you are.
All those points were specifically addressed.
You have proven yourself an idiot numerous times, with no ability to support your argument with basic facts about downtown. You just don't know what you are talking about. You said it before, but saying it again and again doesn't make it true. You were stupid then and you are stupid now. Give yourself a cookie.
[}:)]
Sounds like you should take a survey.
Log on to www.tulsanow.org Opinion Forum, and create an opinion poll.
Let me know your results.
I'm here because I'm a seeker after the truth.
Others may be too.
The truth will help our citizenry more than a new downtown stadium.
"Of course, the usual reaction to a point-by-point discussion is that a Forum dissenter will then Cherry-Pick answers to the comments that they prefer to respond to.
Or, give a generalized response against specific comments.
It's a debating tactic.
Whether it is fair or meets the CannonFodder posting requirements will be left to the viewership." Friendly Bear
THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!!!!Don't fall for such Fodder.....
"For lunch I ate fast food, the blood of the wicked." Cannon Fodder
TulsaNow's Itinerant Exorcism Servicer
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
"Of course, the usual reaction to a point-by-point discussion is that a Forum dissenter will then Cherry-Pick answers to the comments that they prefer to respond to.
Or, give a generalized response against specific comments.
It's a debating tactic.
Whether it is fair or meets the CannonFodder posting requirements will be left to the viewership." Friendly Bear
THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!!!!Don't fall for such Fodder.....
"For lunch I ate fast food, the blood of the wicked." Cannon Fodder
TulsaNow's Itinerant Exorcism Servicer
And, the Truth Shall set you Free!
FOTD is talking about debating tactics? Classic.
FOTD's guide to debating:
1) Make things up (lie)
2) If asked for as source, cite to something that doesn't support your contention
3) If called out on it chance the topic
4) If called out on that, persist
- - -
If you want to "win" the debate, fine. I was trying to have an actual and substantive discussion. Instead I had the same crap regurgitated with no support and tactics to avoid the question at hand.
If we are actually talking about debate, in an actual debate a protest could simply be lodged and all points lost for being non responsive (and thus a misuse of rebuttal time). Thus, you STILL wouldn't win.
I guess that explains it, I'm trying to have a discussion - you're trying to "debate" and win. The result is logic on one side, and avoidance, crappy sources, and halve truths on the other side.
quote:
This is the truth!
What's the truth? Because FB has posted nothing that could be declared substantive truth for a long, long time. No evidence that the tax issues are relevant, no evidence that the Driller's didn't intend to move, nothing on Manhattan needing revenue, dead wrong on his notion of the area, he hasn't even declared that he lives in Tulsa.
He's following your tactic of "making crap up" and when called "make up more crap or change the subject." Kudos on your avoidance skills. But it's of no value in a discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It means at least $100K in sales tax a year to a city with a stagnat budget (probably more). It's not a panacea and was never intended as such.
Where do people come up with these numbers? If we move the stadium downtown then suddenly more people will magically appear to bump up attendance numbers?
I also hear that somehow, building a new stadium will influx 200 permanent jobs and $13 million in revenues. I just don't see why if that is the case, it isn't happening now.
Maybe someone can tell me how they are going to get people out of the casinos and to the ballpark. (And mind you, come up with an EXTRA $13 million because we aren't just talking about moving the revenues from one spot to another.)
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It means at least $100K in sales tax a year to a city with a stagnat budget (probably more). It's not a panacea and was never intended as such.
Where do people come up with these numbers? If we move the stadium downtown then suddenly more people will magically appear to bump up attendance numbers?
I also hear that somehow, building a new stadium will influx 200 permanent jobs and $13 million in revenues. I just don't see why if that is the case, it isn't happening now.
Maybe someone can tell me how they are going to get people out of the casinos and to the ballpark. (And mind you, come up with an EXTRA $13 million because we aren't just talking about moving the revenues from one spot to another.)
The $100k a year number comes from the fact that a stadium downtown will generate city sales tax. Drillers Stadium, on county property, currently doesn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
The $100k a year number comes from the fact that a stadium downtown will generate city sales tax. Drillers Stadium, on county property, currently doesn't.
Ah, finally a number that someone can actually justify. While I will hate paying $1.09 for my $1 beers, buying beer in south Tulsa where restaurants don't bother to include liquor tax is getting me used to it.
Thanks Hoss!
I ignore the economic impact numbers from most of these things. They usually are more or less made up and nearly NEVER pan-out as advertised. They take ticket sales ignoring the fact they already existed, then add in some numbers they figure will happen, then multiple by a municipal turnover factor.
BUT, I can see how this will bennefit the local economy by encouraging people to go out. Catch dinner then a game. Maybe go to the bar. It will most likely spur new development in the area also. It is also another piece in the puzzle for having a living downtown. All things that will increase the tax base in addition to sale tax applying in the city limits.
It could also attract actual tourists. I know people in Tulsa that go to the Bricktown Ballpark or Springfield for a weekend and plan on catching a game. Just one more small piece of the puzzle, another thing to do in Tulsa. Currently, going to a Driller's game is not that caliber of experience.
As I said before, the Fairgrounds has NO game atmosphere to it. You show up for the game, then leave. No ancillary things, not pretty at all. As stated: it's adequate to play ball in.
I don't think it is a magic pill to boast the tax base. I don't think anyone is arguing that as the primary reason to build the ballpark. In the long run it could help grow the tax base as the area improves, but not as a magic pill.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It means at least $100K in sales tax a year to a city with a stagnat budget (probably more). It's not a panacea and was never intended as such.
Where do people come up with these numbers? If we move the stadium downtown then suddenly more people will magically appear to bump up attendance numbers?
I also hear that somehow, building a new stadium will influx 200 permanent jobs and $13 million in revenues. I just don't see why if that is the case, it isn't happening now.
Maybe someone can tell me how they are going to get people out of the casinos and to the ballpark. (And mind you, come up with an EXTRA $13 million because we aren't just talking about moving the revenues from one spot to another.)
The $100k a year number comes from the fact that a stadium downtown will generate city sales tax. Drillers Stadium, on county property, currently doesn't.
Golly Gee, at $100,000 per year in new city sales taxes collected, in only 300 years Tulsa IDL-BID District, City, and County taxpayers will recover their $30,000,000 investment.
What a DEAL!
[:O]
Cannon Fodder....when you falsely accuse me of lying then there is no point in reading the rest your post. Those of us who stand by our integrity do not lie. Why do you think we have problems with Busheviks and city pr*cks?
No wonder you don't like communicating indirectly with the devil through FOTD. You are twisted from all that garbage you eat and read. Wicked people suck.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I ignore the economic impact numbers from most of these things. They usually are more or less made up and nearly NEVER pan-out as advertised. They take ticket sales ignoring the fact they already existed, then add in some numbers they figure will happen, then multiple by a municipal turnover factor.
BUT, I can see how this will bennefit the local economy by encouraging people to go out. Catch dinner then a game. Maybe go to the bar. It will most likely spur new development in the area also. It is also another piece in the puzzle for having a living downtown. All things that will increase the tax base in addition to sale tax applying in the city limits.
It could also attract actual tourists. I know people in Tulsa that go to the Bricktown Ballpark or Springfield for a weekend and plan on catching a game. Just one more small piece of the puzzle, another thing to do in Tulsa. Currently, going to a Driller's game is not that caliber of experience.
As I said before, the Fairgrounds has NO game atmosphere to it. You show up for the game, then leave. No ancillary things, not pretty at all. As stated: it's adequate to play ball in.
I don't think it is a magic pill to boast the tax base. I don't think anyone is arguing that as the primary reason to build the ballpark. In the long run it could help grow the tax base as the area improves, but not as a magic pill.
Oh, so it's okay to accept SOME of the numbers used by promoters?
Just ignore the Economic impact numbers.
But, ACCEPT the $30,000,000 estimated cost of the new Driller Stadium.
From a company that experienced a 30% cost overrun on their last Co-Sole-Sourced major Tulsa government construction Project:
The BOK Arena.
Warning, Warning, That Does Not Compute!
[8)]
That's just stupid Bear.
Not only do they come from different sources but...
Cost estimates can be affirmed in contracts. They are based on actual known quantities. You can look down the road and see what things cost. You can tally them up at the end and see what the results are.
Economic Impact numbers are generally much more aloof. They are "maybes" and "taking these factors" and "we think this will happen" extrapolations. They are not comparable and rarely, if ever, verifiable.
Your attempt to make an issue out of it is laughable. If you truely don't understand the economic differences, let me know. I'm happy to explain anything but I imagine you really understand and are just trying to "win" the discussion.
- - -
FOTD, just an hour ago in the other thread you readily admitted that you will lie to try to get other's to believe your point of view. if the source doesn't actually say that, the quote is off, or the contention is wholly unsupported it doesn't matter.
That's lying. Abstaining from such initiatives, using real primary sources, or fairly representing things represents integrity. I see you fail to grasp the concept.
You can support your contentions without having to result to worthless arguments and partisan sources. Try it out. It is much more effective.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
That's just stupid Bear.
Not only do they come from different sources but...
Cost estimates can be affirmed in contracts. They are based on actual known quantities. You can look down the road and see what things cost. You can tally them up at the end and see what the results are.
Economic Impact numbers are generally much more aloof. They are "maybes" and "taking these factors" and "we think this will happen" extrapolations. They are not comparable and rarely, if ever, verifiable.
Your attempt to make an issue out of it is laughable. If you truely don't understand the economic differences, let me know. I'm happy to explain anything but I imagine you really understand and are just trying to "win" the discussion.
- - -
FOTD, just an hour ago in the other thread you readily admitted that you will lie to try to get other's to believe your point of view. if the source doesn't actually say that, the quote is off, or the contention is wholly unsupported it doesn't matter.
That's lying. Abstaining from such initiatives, using real primary sources, or fairly representing things represents integrity. I see you fail to grasp the concept.
You can support your contentions without having to result to worthless arguments and partisan sources. Try it out. It is much more effective.
Uh, the Rooney Looney Tune cost estimates are probably more reliable than the economic estimates.
Just look at their history.
Take the pimping politician promoters prononciation of the public project costs, and multiply it by at least 30%.
Why?
History.
And, certain Oligarch Families NEED to FEED their GREED.
Their pimping politician promoters purposefully underestimate the project costs in order to sell the deal.
Then, when the project cost comes in 30-50% over the estimate, the Rooney Looneys smile all the way to the bank.
Suckered 'em again.
Ain't Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trusts just great.
They need to promote them in other states, so they can game the system there like they so successfully do here in Oklahoma.
Competitive Bidding?
They eschew competitive bidding.
Hurts their fat profit margin on Goobermint contracts.
[8D]
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
It means at least $100K in sales tax a year to a city with a stagnat budget (probably more). It's not a panacea and was never intended as such.
Where do people come up with these numbers? If we move the stadium downtown then suddenly more people will magically appear to bump up attendance numbers?
I also hear that somehow, building a new stadium will influx 200 permanent jobs and $13 million in revenues. I just don't see why if that is the case, it isn't happening now.
Maybe someone can tell me how they are going to get people out of the casinos and to the ballpark. (And mind you, come up with an EXTRA $13 million because we aren't just talking about moving the revenues from one spot to another.)
Bill Christiansen specifically cited this number during the debate on the stadium two weeks ago. I'd like to see where it comes from -- it might reflect purchases from vendors or perhaps the number as a result of settlement between KT and the county.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[}:)]
Sounds like you should take a survey.
Log on to www.tulsanow.org Opinion Forum, and create an opinion poll.
Let me know your results.
I'm here because I'm a seeker after the truth.
Others may be too.
The truth will help our citizenry more than a new downtown stadium.
[/quote]
You are the furthest thing from a seeker of truth. You spew lies. You have no idea what is downtown. You have wasted on our time on a pathetic argument about Lamson not wanting competition from vendors downtown, even though he has asked for a downtown stadium for awhile. We have taken out every lie about the Drillers and you just re-type them -- probably the worst attempt at "debate" I've ever seen.
If you hate Tulsa so much, GTFO (if you live here, which I really doubt).
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
It was you who asserted that Manhattan has no Cash Flow problems.
I asked:
How do you know?
Regarding their list of active projects, competitively bid projects likely have a smaller, tighter profit margin for them.
Different than nice, juicy local Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust contracts awarded NON-COMPETITIVELY, wouldn't you think?
Even you should know that without the pressures of the competitive market place applied through competitive bidding, margins will tend to rise.
Because there is NO MARKETPLACE DISCIPLINE.
That's why Flintco and RooneyCo LOVE Oklahoma government building projects, especially Title 60 Public Trusts.
How HANDY!
[:O]
I realize you aren't very bright, but you keep typing this crap that wastes our time.
You referenced some theory about Manhattan's finances, not me. I asked for proof and gave you a site that appears to show they have more than enough work. You have no response to that. I'm sorry you can't think of it, but you lost the argument. Come back when you show me that Manhattan is hurting for cash.
As for your latest crap argument, Title 60 public trusts: every state in the union has a law like this, as far as I can tell. You have never identified what Oklahoma's law does that is so wrong. (And you won't be able to, because you don't know what you're talking about.)
The statute's language actually blows your assertion out of the water:
"F. All bonds described in subsection E of this section, after December 1, 1976, except bonds sold to the federal government or any agency thereof or to any agency of the State of Oklahoma, s
hall be awarded to the lowest and best bidder based upon open competitive public offering, advertised at least once a week for two (2) successive weeks in a newspaper of general circulation in the county where the principal office of the trust is located prior to the date on which bids are received and opened; provided, competitive bidding may be waived on bond issues with the approval of three-fourths (3/4) of the trustees, and a three-fourths (3/4) vote of the governing body of the beneficiary, unless the beneficiary is a county in which case a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the members of the governing body shall be required, or three-fourths (3/4) vote of the governing bodies of each of the beneficiaries of the trust, unless one of the beneficiaries is a county in which case a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the members of the governing body of such county shall be required. No bonds shall be sold for less than par value, except upon approval of three-fourths (3/4) of the trustees, unless the beneficiary is a county in which case a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the members of the governing body shall be required. In no event shall bonds be sold for less than sixty-five percent (65%) of par value; provided, however, in no event shall the original purchaser from the issuer of any bonds issued by any public trust for any purpose receive directly or indirectly any fees, compensation, or other remuneration in excess of four percent (4%) of the price paid for the bonds by the purchaser of the bonds from the original purchaser; and further provided, that the average coupon rate thereon shall in no event exceed fourteen percent (14%) per annum. No public trust shall sell bonds for less than ninety-six percent (96%) of par value until the public trust has received from the underwriter or financial advisor or, in the absence of an underwriter or financial advisor, the initial purchaser of the bonds, an estimated alternative financing structure or structures showing the estimated total interest and principal cost of each alternative. At least one alternative financing structure shall include bonds sold to the public at par. Any estimates shall be considered a public record of the public trust. Bonds, notes or other evidences of indebtedness issued by any public trust shall be eligible for purchase by any state banking association or corporation subject to such limitations as to investment quality as may be imposed by regulations, rules or rulings of the State Banking Commissioner.
H. Contracts for construction, labor, equipment, material or repairs in excess of Twenty-five Thousand Dollars ($25,000.00)
shall be awarded by public trusts to the lowest and best competitive bidder, pursuant to public invitation to bid, which shall be published in the manner provided in the preceding section hereof; the advertisements shall appear in the county where the work, or the major part of it, is to be done, or the equipment or materials are to be delivered, or the services are to be rendered; provided, however, should the trustee or the trustees find that an immediate emergency exists, which findings shall be entered in the journal of the trust proceedings, by reason of which an immediate outlay of trust funds in an amount exceeding Twenty-five Thousand Dollars ($25,000.00) is necessary in order to avoid loss of life, substantial damage to property, or damage to the public peace or safety, then the contracts may be made and entered into without public notice or competitive bids; provided that the provisions of this subsection shall not apply to contracts of industrial and cultural trusts. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, equipment or materials may be purchased by a public trust directly from any contract duly awarded by this state or any state agency under the Oklahoma Central Purchasing Act, or from any contract duly awarded by a governmental entity which is the beneficiary of the public trust."
60 O.S. Sec. 176
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=438402
Title 60 has NOTHING to do with your assertions about "no bid" contracts. Beyond that, you have no proof that there was not a bidding process on this project.
You are a pathetic waste of life. Your assertions about racial issues and the current group leading the charge (at the top of the thread) are offensive and provide evidence that you need help.
But guess what? You lost. The stadium is happening. And there's nothing you can do.
Poor FB.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I ignore the economic impact numbers from most of these things. They usually are more or less made up and nearly NEVER pan-out as advertised. They take ticket sales ignoring the fact they already existed, then add in some numbers they figure will happen, then multiple by a municipal turnover factor.
BUT, I can see how this will bennefit the local economy by encouraging people to go out. Catch dinner then a game. Maybe go to the bar. It will most likely spur new development in the area also. It is also another piece in the puzzle for having a living downtown. All things that will increase the tax base in addition to sale tax applying in the city limits.
It could also attract actual tourists. I know people in Tulsa that go to the Bricktown Ballpark or Springfield for a weekend and plan on catching a game. Just one more small piece of the puzzle, another thing to do in Tulsa. Currently, going to a Driller's game is not that caliber of experience.
As I said before, the Fairgrounds has NO game atmosphere to it. You show up for the game, then leave. No ancillary things, not pretty at all. As stated: it's adequate to play ball in.
I don't think it is a magic pill to boast the tax base. I don't think anyone is arguing that as the primary reason to build the ballpark. In the long run it could help grow the tax base as the area improves, but not as a magic pill.
Oh, so it's okay to accept SOME of the numbers used by promoters?
Just ignore the Economic impact numbers.
But, ACCEPT the $30,000,000 estimated cost of the new Driller Stadium.
From a company that experienced a 30% cost overrun on their last Co-Sole-Sourced major Tulsa government construction Project:
The BOK Arena.
Warning, Warning, That Does Not Compute!
[8)]
Didn't steel prices (and the cost of everything) go way up?
Are you really this out of it?
I'm sorry you are so bitter and live such a horrible life, but you are ignorant of basic facts about economy and the city.
Go find another hobby. Maybe go get a degree.
But this is just sad watching you be this much of a fool.
Poor FB.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[
Golly Gee, at $100,000 per year in new city sales taxes collected, in only 300 years Tulsa IDL-BID District, City, and County taxpayers will recover their $30,000,000 investment.
What a DEAL!
[:O]
Again, you haven't paid attention.
COUNTY taxpayers aren't paying for this, other than the pittance (which the board offered to pay for you, though you don't live in the city) mentioned a week or so ago. It's downtown taxpayers and it's not that much of an impact.
Beyond that, you could make the same argument for every single government project ever -- schools, roads, government buildings, the convention center, and arena -- all cost money and take awhile to pay. In this instance, the democratically elected deliberative body voted to build a stadium for the benefit of the public.
The vast majority of people in Tulsa are excited about it.
If you actually lived in Tulsa, you could enjoy it.
But since you aren't in Tulsa, I'll be sure to introduce your proxy to the stall before the first pitch.
Poor FB.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
It was you who asserted that Manhattan has no Cash Flow problems.
I asked:
How do you know?
Regarding their list of active projects, competitively bid projects likely have a smaller, tighter profit margin for them.
Different than nice, juicy local Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust contracts awarded NON-COMPETITIVELY, wouldn't you think?
Even you should know that without the pressures of the competitive market place applied through competitive bidding, margins will tend to rise.
Because there is NO MARKETPLACE DISCIPLINE.
That's why Flintco and RooneyCo LOVE Oklahoma government building projects, especially Title 60 Public Trusts.
How HANDY!
[:O]
I realize you aren't very bright, but you keep typing this crap that wastes our time.
You referenced some theory about Manhattan's finances, not me. I asked for proof and gave you a site that appears to show they have more than enough work. You have no response to that. I'm sorry you can't think of it, but you lost the argument. Come back when you show me that Manhattan is hurting for cash.
As for your latest crap argument, Title 60 public trusts: every state in the union has a law like this, as far as I can tell. You have never identified what Oklahoma's law does that is so wrong. (And you won't be able to, because you don't know what you're talking about.)
The statute's language actually blows your assertion out of the water:
"F. All bonds described in subsection E of this section, after December 1, 1976, except bonds sold to the federal government or any agency thereof or to any agency of the State of Oklahoma, shall be awarded to the lowest and best bidder based upon open competitive public offering, advertised at least once a week for two (2) successive weeks in a newspaper of general circulation in the county where the principal office of the trust is located prior to the date on which bids are received and opened; provided, competitive bidding may be waived on bond issues with the approval of three-fourths (3/4) of the trustees, and a three-fourths (3/4) vote of the governing body of the beneficiary, unless the beneficiary is a county in which case a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the members of the governing body shall be required, or three-fourths (3/4) vote of the governing bodies of each of the beneficiaries of the trust, unless one of the beneficiaries is a county in which case a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the members of the governing body of such county shall be required. No bonds shall be sold for less than par value, except upon approval of three-fourths (3/4) of the trustees, unless the beneficiary is a county in which case a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the members of the governing body shall be required. In no event shall bonds be sold for less than sixty-five percent (65%) of par value; provided, however, in no event shall the original purchaser from the issuer of any bonds issued by any public trust for any purpose receive directly or indirectly any fees, compensation, or other remuneration in excess of four percent (4%) of the price paid for the bonds by the purchaser of the bonds from the original purchaser; and further provided, that the average coupon rate thereon shall in no event exceed fourteen percent (14%) per annum. No public trust shall sell bonds for less than ninety-six percent (96%) of par value until the public trust has received from the underwriter or financial advisor or, in the absence of an underwriter or financial advisor, the initial purchaser of the bonds, an estimated alternative financing structure or structures showing the estimated total interest and principal cost of each alternative. At least one alternative financing structure shall include bonds sold to the public at par. Any estimates shall be considered a public record of the public trust. Bonds, notes or other evidences of indebtedness issued by any public trust shall be eligible for purchase by any state banking association or corporation subject to such limitations as to investment quality as may be imposed by regulations, rules or rulings of the State Banking Commissioner.
H. Contracts for construction, labor, equipment, material or repairs in excess of Twenty-five Thousand Dollars ($25,000.00) shall be awarded by public trusts to the lowest and best competitive bidder, pursuant to public invitation to bid, which shall be published in the manner provided in the preceding section hereof; the advertisements shall appear in the county where the work, or the major part of it, is to be done, or the equipment or materials are to be delivered, or the services are to be rendered; provided, however, should the trustee or the trustees find that an immediate emergency exists, which findings shall be entered in the journal of the trust proceedings, by reason of which an immediate outlay of trust funds in an amount exceeding Twenty-five Thousand Dollars ($25,000.00) is necessary in order to avoid loss of life, substantial damage to property, or damage to the public peace or safety, then the contracts may be made and entered into without public notice or competitive bids; provided that the provisions of this subsection shall not apply to contracts of industrial and cultural trusts. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, equipment or materials may be purchased by a public trust directly from any contract duly awarded by this state or any state agency under the Oklahoma Central Purchasing Act, or from any contract duly awarded by a governmental entity which is the beneficiary of the public trust."
60 O.S. Sec. 176
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=438402
Title 60 has NOTHING to do with your assertions about "no bid" contracts. Beyond that, you have no proof that there was not a bidding process on this project.
You are a pathetic waste of life. Your assertions about racial issues and the current group leading the charge (at the top of the thread) are offensive and provide evidence that you need help.
But guess what? You lost. The stadium is happening. And there's nothing you can do.
Poor FB.
[:X]
From the lips of Charles Norman came the statement, on T-GOV, that pursuant to a Title 60 Public Trust, the PAC contract was awarded to Manhattan Construction Co. WITHOUT the benefit of competitive bidding. He made this statement in a T-GOV documentary about the construction and financing of the PAC, with guest appearances by former Mayor Bob LaFortune and big John Williams.
It's still regularly airing on local cable T-GOV channel. Catch it some time.
Is Mayor Taylor breaking the law then?
Unless, maybe she declared the stadium was an "emergency".
That seems to be an escape clause.
Just as you have stated, Mayor Taylor stated exactly and precisely that the contract was awarded to Manhattan Construction pursuant to a "bidding process".
NOT a competitive bidding process. A bidding process.
Same as the BOK Arena. NOT a competitive bidding process; awarded to Manhattan Construction in a sole-sourced deal, with the spoils shared 50/50 with FlintCo to keep the peace.
Same as the Arena BOND undewriting. Sole sourced between F&M and BOK, i.e. Lortons and Kaiser.
Same as the PAC construction. Awarded to Manhattan Construction;
Not competitively bid.
And, I presume when the GARVEE bond financing for the stadium is arranged, it will be Sole-Sourced to BOK, and/or F&M, to reward them for promoting the Stadium Project.
So where is District Attorney Tim Harris hiding?
Oh, maybe the Stadium is an "emergency".
An Emergency?
Define Emergency.
Define Nacho, too, from your earlier post.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[
Golly Gee, at $100,000 per year in new city sales taxes collected, in only 300 years Tulsa IDL-BID District, City, and County taxpayers will recover their $30,000,000 investment.
What a DEAL!
[:O]
Again, you haven't paid attention.
COUNTY taxpayers aren't paying for this, other than the pittance (which the board offered to pay for you, though you don't live in the city) mentioned a week or so ago. It's downtown taxpayers and it's not that much of an impact.
Beyond that, you could make the same argument for every single government project ever -- schools, roads, government buildings, the convention center, and arena -- all cost money and take awhile to pay. In this instance, the democratically elected deliberative body voted to build a stadium for the benefit of the public.
The vast majority of people in Tulsa are excited about it.
If you actually lived in Tulsa, you could enjoy it.
But since you aren't in Tulsa, I'll be sure to introduce your proxy to the stall before the first pitch.
Poor FB.
[:X]
The stadium BID assessment will raise the taxes necessary to support Tulsa County government, because county property within the BID will be assessed, and the money will come from all Tulsa County property owners.
Within the IDL BID, Tulsa county has:
County Courthouse; County Annex Building; Tulsa City-County Library; Sheriff's office; Tulsa County Jail?
Comparing the need for a street vs. the need for a replacement baseball stadium is comparing apples to oranges.
These are entirely different expenditures.
One is typically a need, such as road needs repaving or widening due to wear or density of traffic.
The latter public project is just a WANT. Like, Manhattan Construction wants back on the Government Teat. And, their pimping politicians WANT to keep them happy.
They WANT to FEED their GREED.
See, Needs vs. WANTS.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
From the lips of Charles Norman came the statement, on T-GOV, that pursuant to a Title 60 Public Trust, the PAC contract was awarded to Manhattan Construction Co. WITHOUT the benefit of competitive bidding. He made this statement in a T-GOV documentary about the construction and financing of the PAC. It's still regularly airing on local cable channel.
Is Mayor Taylor breaking the law? Unless she declared the stadium was an "emergency".
Just as you have stated, Mayor Taylor stated exactly that the contract was awarded to Manhattan Construction pursuant to a "bidding process".
NOT a competitive bidding process.
Same as the BOK Arena. NOT a competitive bidding process; awarded to Manhattan Construction.
Same as the Arena BOND undewriting. Sole sourced between F&M and BOK.
Same as the PAC construction. Awarded to Manhattan Construction.
Not competitively bid.
And, I presume when the GARVEE bond financing for the stadium is arranged, it will be Sole-Sourced to BOK, and/or F&M, to reward them for promoting the Stadium Project.
So where is District Attorney Tim Harris hiding?
Oh, maybe the Stadium is an "emergency".
An Emergency?
You don't know anything about the law. Your only assertion about these alleged "no bid" awards is a hearsay statement you attribute to Charles Norman on a tv show you allegedly watched in the middle of the night that only comes on in a city that many of doubt you live in.
Mmmmmm-kay . . .
Why do I have trouble believing you?
Is is that you regularly:
lie
misrepresent
make up
falsely accuse
and talk over your head?
[}:)]
Yeah, and you're a jerk.
I've given you the language of the statute you cite. I must say it wasn't as much of an obscure read as I'd thought it would be -- the second paragraph plainly says that the contract goes to the lowest bidder and that there must be bids.
Maybe you have point, that there was no bid -- but that's your burden to show. You have shown NO FACTS to support that argument. It's all your typical trashy analysis.
At least admit you presume wrong-doing by F&M Bank and BOk. I presume you're a fool and don't live in the area. And I'm right.
Tim Harris doesn't have jurisdiction over this -- it's a CITY project. It's your burden to explain why Tim Harris would give a hoot about this. But kudos to you for name dropping . . . that's about all you can do effectively at this point.
So, I see your Tim Harris and raise you:
Henderson
Christiansen
Bynum
Gomez
Patrick
Troyer
Six city councilers who voted for the stadium. The three who didn't wanted the stadium downtown, but seemed to have a beef with the city charter more than the proposal.
FB loses. Again.
Poor FB.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
The stadium BID assessment will raise the taxes necessary to support Tulsa County government, because county property within the BID will be assessed, and the money will come from all Tulsa County property owners.
Within the IDL BID, Tulsa county has:
County Courthouse; County Annex Building; Tulsa City-County Library; Sheriff's office; Tulsa County Jail?
Comparing the need for a street vs. the need for a replacement baseball stadium is comparing apples to oranges.
These are entirely different expenditures.
One is typically a need, such as road needs repaving or widening due to wear or density of traffic.
The latter public project is just a WANT. Like, Manhattan Construction wants back on the Government Teat. And, their pimping politicians WANT to keep them happy.
They WANT to FEED their GREED.
See, Needs vs. WANTS.
[:P]
[/quote]
We've been through this . . . that's a pittance of a tax for county voters and we're talking decimal points of a percentage point for what downtown renters will pay (which in turn isn't that much).
Are you really this desperate?
The stadium is going to be built. There's nothing you can do.
The board even offered to pay your part -- we guessed $5 (probably not even that much), but you refused to addresss that because you even realize how idiotic this sounds.
Do you like misstating facts for stupid people?
My point was that all government projects cost taxpayers. There is always a need vs. want/ cost benefit analysis. In this case, there is a pretty minimal amount of money being spent for most taxpayers in Tulsa County. The burden of this tax is on the businesses downtown, the majority of which wanted this to happen.
It's called democracy. Pretty much everyone I know in Tulsa, conservative or liberal, rich or poor, etc., wanted this project. It was enacted by a democratically elected council and mayor.
That's how it works. There are no lies or coverups.
If you really want to talk about waste of public money, talk about entitlements for state employees or the turnpikes. This project is most assuredly the one worth all the ire.
You're just jealous of successful people in Tulsa.
And not very well informed.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
From the lips of Charles Norman came the statement, on T-GOV, that pursuant to a Title 60 Public Trust, the PAC contract was awarded to Manhattan Construction Co. WITHOUT the benefit of competitive bidding. He made this statement in a T-GOV documentary about the construction and financing of the PAC. It's still regularly airing on local cable channel.
Is Mayor Taylor breaking the law? Unless she declared the stadium was an "emergency".
Just as you have stated, Mayor Taylor stated exactly that the contract was awarded to Manhattan Construction pursuant to a "bidding process".
NOT a competitive bidding process.
Same as the BOK Arena. NOT a competitive bidding process; awarded to Manhattan Construction.
Same as the Arena BOND undewriting. Sole sourced between F&M and BOK.
Same as the PAC construction. Awarded to Manhattan Construction.
Not competitively bid.
And, I presume when the GARVEE bond financing for the stadium is arranged, it will be Sole-Sourced to BOK, and/or F&M, to reward them for promoting the Stadium Project.
So where is District Attorney Tim Harris hiding?
Oh, maybe the Stadium is an "emergency".
An Emergency?
You don't know anything about the law. Your only assertion about these alleged "no bid" awards is a hearsay statement you attribute to Charles Norman on a tv show you allegedly watched in the middle of the night that only comes on in a city that many of doubt you live in.
Mmmmmm-kay . . .
Why do I have trouble believing you?
Is is that you regularly:
lie
misrepresent
make up
falsely accuse
and talk over your head?
[}:)]
Yeah, and you're a jerk.
I've given you the language of the statute you cite. I must say it wasn't as much of an obscure read as I'd thought it would be -- the second paragraph plainly says that the contract goes to the lowest bidder and that there must be bids.
Maybe you have point, that there was no bid -- but that's your burden to show. You have shown NO FACTS to support that argument. It's all your typical trashy analysis.
At least admit you presume wrong-doing by F&M Bank and BOk. I presume you're a fool and don't live in the area. And I'm right.
Tim Harris doesn't have jurisdiction over this -- it's a CITY project. It's your burden to explain why Tim Harris would give a hoot about this. But kudos to you for name dropping . . . that's about all you can do effectively at this point.
So, I see your Tim Harris and raise you:
Henderson
Christiansen
Bynum
Gomez
Patrick
Troyer
Six city councilers who voted for the stadium. The three who didn't wanted the stadium downtown, but seemed to have a beef with the city charter more than the proposal.
FB loses. Again.
Poor FB.
[:X]
Tim Harris's job is to prosecute crimes committed in Tulsa County.
Mayor Taylor stated that the Stadium will be built and operated pursuant to an Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust.
She also stated that Manhattan Construction had been selected as the Constractor, through a "bidding process" but without the benefit of public notice of a competitive bidding, and a bid letting process.
That would appear to be a matter for the DA to make inquiries.
Unless he wants to end his public career crossing the local power establishment.
Maybe Mrs. Taylor declared the Stadium an Emergency?
Right?
You can say what you want about Charles Norman's documentary appearance on T-GOV, regarding the construction and financing of the PAC.
Other posters and lurkers here as well have seen that broadcast.
Apparently, you act like you haven't seen this documentary, or heard his comments.
Do so sometime.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Tim Harris's job is to prosecute crimes committed in Tulsa County.
Mayor Taylor stated that the Stadium will be built and operated pursuant to an Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust.
She also stated that Manhattan Construction had been selected as the Constractor, through a "bidding process" but without the benefit of public notice of a competitive bidding, and a bid letting process.
That would appear to be a matter for the DA to make inquiries.
Unless he wants to end his public career crossing the local power establishment.
Maybe Mrs. Taylor declared the Stadium an Emergency?
Right?
You can say what you want about Charles Norman's documentary appearance on T-GOV, regarding the construction and financing of the PAC.
Other posters and lurkers here as well have seen that broadcast.
Apparently, you act like you haven't seen this documentary, or heard his comments.
Do so sometime.
What crime did anyone commit here?
Assume you are right and the law wasn't followed (big assumption), that doesn't mean there is criminal liability. There are a lot of other ways to correct illegal acts by the government.
C'mon FB -- leave the legal discussion alone. You aren't qualified to evaluate basic points. Please don't talk about legal issues anymore. It's like watching what I imagine Rosanne Arnold would look like doing yoga.
You need to show where there wasn't a bidding process and that Title 60 wasn't followed. No one else out there is making this argument (not even the usual suspects in the tinfoil hat crowd) and since it comes from you, it's less than credible.
You just don't know if the statute was followed, so you presume it wasn't. That's the worst kind of tinfoil hat argument.
At least you appear to concede that title 60 public trusts require bidding.
I'll look for the the Dark Lord's analysis, but I've got to say, given the amount of my time you waste with your idiotic claims, it will be a low priority.
You have no clue.
Poor FB.
[:O]
(http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/polar-bear-rug-1.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Tim Harris's job is to prosecute crimes committed in Tulsa County.
Mayor Taylor stated that the Stadium will be built and operated pursuant to an Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust.
She also stated that Manhattan Construction had been selected as the Constractor, through a "bidding process" but without the benefit of public notice of a competitive bidding, and a bid letting process.
That would appear to be a matter for the DA to make inquiries.
Unless he wants to end his public career crossing the local power establishment.
Maybe Mrs. Taylor declared the Stadium an Emergency?
Right?
You can say what you want about Charles Norman's documentary appearance on T-GOV, regarding the construction and financing of the PAC.
Other posters and lurkers here as well have seen that broadcast.
Apparently, you act like you haven't seen this documentary, or heard his comments.
Do so sometime.
What crime did anyone commit here?
Assume you are right and the law wasn't followed (big assumption), that doesn't mean there is criminal liability. There are a lot of other ways to correct illegal acts by the government.
C'mon FB -- leave the legal discussion alone. You aren't qualified to evaluate basic points. Please don't talk about legal issues anymore. It's like watching what I imagine Rosanne Arnold would look like doing yoga.
You need to show where there wasn't a bidding process and that Title 60 wasn't followed. No one else out there is making this argument (not even the usual suspects in the tinfoil hat crowd) and since it comes from you, it's less than credible.
You just don't know if the statute was followed, so you presume it wasn't. That's the worst kind of tinfoil hat argument.
At least you appear to concede that title 60 public trusts require bidding.
I'll look for the the Dark Lord's analysis, but I've got to say, given the amount of my time you waste with your idiotic claims, it will be a low priority.
You have no clue.
Poor FB.
[:O]
(http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/polar-bear-rug-1.jpg)
I find it puzzling, given the amount of your time you state you waste responding to my "idiotic" claims, then just WHY bother?
It's almost like it's A JOB.....
............with the other degenerates at.....
Snakey, Turncoat and Flake?
Back to the Public Policy discussion, maybe just maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with
competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, statement of bid evaluation requirements, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID Assessment on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Just a "bidding process".
That is NOT a COMPETITIVE bidding process.
Nada.
Nowhere.
Yet, the Mayor announced it.
We ALL heard her.
Right?
Was it an EMERGENCY?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Tim Harris's job is to prosecute crimes committed in Tulsa County.
Mayor Taylor stated that the Stadium will be built and operated pursuant to an Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust.
She also stated that Manhattan Construction had been selected as the Constractor, through a "bidding process" but without the benefit of public notice of a competitive bidding, and a bid letting process.
That would appear to be a matter for the DA to make inquiries.
Unless he wants to end his public career crossing the local power establishment.
Maybe Mrs. Taylor declared the Stadium an Emergency?
Right?
You can say what you want about Charles Norman's documentary appearance on T-GOV, regarding the construction and financing of the PAC.
Other posters and lurkers here as well have seen that broadcast.
Apparently, you act like you haven't seen this documentary, or heard his comments.
Do so sometime.
What crime did anyone commit here?
Assume you are right and the law wasn't followed (big assumption), that doesn't mean there is criminal liability. There are a lot of other ways to correct illegal acts by the government.
C'mon FB -- leave the legal discussion alone. You aren't qualified to evaluate basic points. Please don't talk about legal issues anymore. It's like watching what I imagine Rosanne Arnold would look like doing yoga.
You need to show where there wasn't a bidding process and that Title 60 wasn't followed. No one else out there is making this argument (not even the usual suspects in the tinfoil hat crowd) and since it comes from you, it's less than credible.
You just don't know if the statute was followed, so you presume it wasn't. That's the worst kind of tinfoil hat argument.
At least you appear to concede that title 60 public trusts require bidding.
I'll look for the the Dark Lord's analysis, but I've got to say, given the amount of my time you waste with your idiotic claims, it will be a low priority.
You have no clue.
Poor FB.
[:O]
(http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/polar-bear-rug-1.jpg)
Maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Nada.
And you know this how? Can you prove it?
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Tim Harris's job is to prosecute crimes committed in Tulsa County.
Mayor Taylor stated that the Stadium will be built and operated pursuant to an Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust.
She also stated that Manhattan Construction had been selected as the Constractor, through a "bidding process" but without the benefit of public notice of a competitive bidding, and a bid letting process.
That would appear to be a matter for the DA to make inquiries.
Unless he wants to end his public career crossing the local power establishment.
Maybe Mrs. Taylor declared the Stadium an Emergency?
Right?
You can say what you want about Charles Norman's documentary appearance on T-GOV, regarding the construction and financing of the PAC.
Other posters and lurkers here as well have seen that broadcast.
Apparently, you act like you haven't seen this documentary, or heard his comments.
Do so sometime.
What crime did anyone commit here?
Assume you are right and the law wasn't followed (big assumption), that doesn't mean there is criminal liability. There are a lot of other ways to correct illegal acts by the government.
C'mon FB -- leave the legal discussion alone. You aren't qualified to evaluate basic points. Please don't talk about legal issues anymore. It's like watching what I imagine Rosanne Arnold would look like doing yoga.
You need to show where there wasn't a bidding process and that Title 60 wasn't followed. No one else out there is making this argument (not even the usual suspects in the tinfoil hat crowd) and since it comes from you, it's less than credible.
You just don't know if the statute was followed, so you presume it wasn't. That's the worst kind of tinfoil hat argument.
At least you appear to concede that title 60 public trusts require bidding.
I'll look for the the Dark Lord's analysis, but I've got to say, given the amount of my time you waste with your idiotic claims, it will be a low priority.
You have no clue.
Poor FB.
[:O]
(http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/polar-bear-rug-1.jpg)
Maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Nada.
And you know this how? Can you prove it?
Are you really claiming Mayor Taylor did NOT say it?
Can YOU
PROVE she did
NOT say it?
Mr. Prove-It?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Tim Harris's job is to prosecute crimes committed in Tulsa County.
Mayor Taylor stated that the Stadium will be built and operated pursuant to an Oklahoma Title 60 Public Trust.
She also stated that Manhattan Construction had been selected as the Constractor, through a "bidding process" but without the benefit of public notice of a competitive bidding, and a bid letting process.
That would appear to be a matter for the DA to make inquiries.
Unless he wants to end his public career crossing the local power establishment.
Maybe Mrs. Taylor declared the Stadium an Emergency?
Right?
You can say what you want about Charles Norman's documentary appearance on T-GOV, regarding the construction and financing of the PAC.
Other posters and lurkers here as well have seen that broadcast.
Apparently, you act like you haven't seen this documentary, or heard his comments.
Do so sometime.
What crime did anyone commit here?
Assume you are right and the law wasn't followed (big assumption), that doesn't mean there is criminal liability. There are a lot of other ways to correct illegal acts by the government.
C'mon FB -- leave the legal discussion alone. You aren't qualified to evaluate basic points. Please don't talk about legal issues anymore. It's like watching what I imagine Rosanne Arnold would look like doing yoga.
You need to show where there wasn't a bidding process and that Title 60 wasn't followed. No one else out there is making this argument (not even the usual suspects in the tinfoil hat crowd) and since it comes from you, it's less than credible.
You just don't know if the statute was followed, so you presume it wasn't. That's the worst kind of tinfoil hat argument.
At least you appear to concede that title 60 public trusts require bidding.
I'll look for the the Dark Lord's analysis, but I've got to say, given the amount of my time you waste with your idiotic claims, it will be a low priority.
You have no clue.
Poor FB.
[:O]
(http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/polar-bear-rug-1.jpg)
Maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Nada.
And you know this how? Can you prove it?
Are you really claiming Mayor Taylor did NOT say it?
Can YOU PROVE she did NOT say it?
Mr. Prove-It?
You're the one making the allegations. Which usually means, as the accuser, the burden of proof is on
YOU.
I think that professional service contracts are different. Design/Oversight would fall under that.
Each substantial step of the process would follow bid procedures. Who provides the material, which company actually pours the pad, etc.
Don't listen to anything friendly bear says about building anything. Bears live in the woods and caves. The only tool they know how to use is a stick that they poke into tree holes.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Nada.
You're totally wrong again.
The announcement regarding Manhattan was BEFORE the debate. THe article you cite, from that Friday, is really clear about that point:
"The foundation is one of 23 donors listed in one of the responses to 30 questions submitted by City Councilor Bill Martinson about ballpark details and financing.
. . .
Manhattan Construction Co. is a $1 million donor, and has been picked through a bidding process to build the stadium, one answer states. "
Tulsa World, Friday, July 11, 2008
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080711_11_A1_Temyre369507
The questions were answered that Wednesday, July 9, in the document that was available to the public. http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/MartinsonQuestions.pdf (My unsubstantiated guess was that the council was aware well before.)
Beyond that, that last document is clear that there were three bids made -- from Manhattan, Flincto, and Crossland. See answers 7 and 8. It would be nice if you took the time to read before you spout of crappy theories.
THe city of Tulsa web site is prety clear how these contracts are bid.http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Business/construction.asp I don't want to take anymore time to follow up whether they actually advertised, but no one out there seems to question that there were in fact three bids.
I'd say nice try, but it wasn't very nice and you didn't try.
You're wrong.
Again.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
(http://gloriana.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bear_rug.jpg)
The contracts will be awarded to Manhattan's subsidiary Canterra. I know some Carpenters who worked for Manhattan. One day their foreman came up to them, told them they no longer work for Manhattan and that they now work for Canterra. They didn't think too much of it, and just continued with their jobs as usual, that is until they got their checks and found out they were suddenly making three dollars less an hour. This is how Manhattan affords to make their "generous donations". What a great corporate citizen they are![sarcasm off]
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think that professional service contracts are different. Design/Oversight would fall under that.
Each substantial step of the process would follow bid procedures. Who provides the material, which company actually pours the pad, etc.
Don't listen to anything friendly bear says about building anything. Bears live in the woods and caves. The only tool they know how to use is a stick that they poke into tree holes.
Professional Services contracts with Architects and Engineers, by STATE LAW, are not let on a competitive bid basis.
CONSTRUCTION contracts are.
Manhattan is a Construction Company.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Nada.
You're totally wrong again.
The announcement regarding Manhattan was BEFORE the debate. THe article you cite, from that Friday, is really clear about that point:
"The foundation is one of 23 donors listed in one of the responses to 30 questions submitted by City Councilor Bill Martinson about ballpark details and financing.
. . .
Manhattan Construction Co. is a $1 million donor, and has been picked through a bidding process to build the stadium, one answer states. "
Tulsa World, Friday, July 11, 2008
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080711_11_A1_Temyre369507
The questions were answered that Wednesday, July 9, in the document that was available to the public. http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/MartinsonQuestions.pdf (My unsubstantiated guess was that the council was aware well before.)
Beyond that, that last document is clear that there were three bids made -- from Manhattan, Flincto, and Crossland. See answers 7 and 8. It would be nice if you took the time to read before you spout of crappy theories.
THe city of Tulsa web site is prety clear how these contracts are bid.http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Business/construction.asp I don't want to take anymore time to follow up whether they actually advertised, but no one out there seems to question that there were in fact three bids.
I'd say nice try, but it wasn't very nice and you didn't try.
You're wrong.
Again.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
(http://gloriana.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bear_rug.jpg)
Say goldie locks, how about showing us where this was put out out to bid on one of the bid sites? One more thing, why didn't the award of this contract require Council approval? Hmmmm, donors were given special consideration in this "bid process"?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think that professional service contracts are different. Design/Oversight would fall under that.
Each substantial step of the process would follow bid procedures. Who provides the material, which company actually pours the pad, etc.
Don't listen to anything friendly bear says about building anything. Bears live in the woods and caves. The only tool they know how to use is a stick that they poke into tree holes.
Professional Services contracts with Architects and Engineers, by STATE LAW, are not let on a competitive bid basis.
CONSTRUCTION contracts are.
Manhattan is a Construction Company.
(http://www.fstdt.com/winace/pics/backpedaling.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Maybe it's accidental, but you're confusing "bidding process" with competitive bidding process.
These require a public notice period, description of the Bid Letting process, and a selection of the "lowest and best bid".
The City Council approved by 6-3 the BID on a Thursday night.
Friday, THE VERY NEXT DAY, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Manhattan Construction had been awarded the Stadium construction project through a "bidding process".
There was no competitive bidding process.
Nada.
You're totally wrong again.
The announcement regarding Manhattan was BEFORE the debate. THe article you cite, from that Friday, is really clear about that point:
"The foundation is one of 23 donors listed in one of the responses to 30 questions submitted by City Councilor Bill Martinson about ballpark details and financing.
. . .
Manhattan Construction Co. is a $1 million donor, and has been picked through a bidding process to build the stadium, one answer states. "
Tulsa World, Friday, July 11, 2008
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080711_11_A1_Temyre369507
The questions were answered that Wednesday, July 9, in the document that was available to the public. http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/MartinsonQuestions.pdf (My unsubstantiated guess was that the council was aware well before.)
Beyond that, that last document is clear that there were three bids made -- from Manhattan, Flincto, and Crossland. See answers 7 and 8. It would be nice if you took the time to read before you spout of crappy theories.
THe city of Tulsa web site is prety clear how these contracts are bid.http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Business/construction.asp I don't want to take anymore time to follow up whether they actually advertised, but no one out there seems to question that there were in fact three bids.
I'd say nice try, but it wasn't very nice and you didn't try.
You're wrong.
Again.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
(http://gloriana.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bear_rug.jpg)
At a Committee Meeting he chaired a few hours before the Council's 6-3 vote ON THE EVENING OF JULY 10, Mr. Martinsen stated he was preparing a list of questions for the Mayor's Office.
In fact, he prepared a list of 30 Questions.
Those were presented to the Mayor's Office.
On July 10.
In the July 11 newspaper article in the Tulsa World, the 30 questions indicated that Manhattan Construction was selected by a "bidding process".
There was no public notice as required under state competitive bidding law for construction projects over $25,000.
It was NOT a competitive bidding process according to state law.
Three companies MAY have stated that they submitted bids.
Wonder if a FOURTH construction company, or an out-of-state construction company, might just sue the City of Tulsa?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Say goldie locks, how about showing us where this was put out out to bid on one of the bid sites? One more thing, why didn't the award of this contract require Council approval? Were donors given special consideration in this "bid process"?
That should be FB's job. He says it didn't happen. As my link from the city states, the notice for bids are posted in the Tulsa Legal & Commerce news and on the city web site. I've been through both and they don't have online archives for these things. I tend to have some trust in this group of city leaders -- they're doing a pretty decent job in my book.
If you want to provide a source for your presumption of graft or that there was no process, go ahead. But just following FB's playbook won't get you far, unless you want to look like a tool.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
At a Committee Meeting he chaired a few hours before the Council's 6-3 vote ON THE EVENING OF JULY 10, Mr. Martinsen stated he was preparing a list of questions for the Mayor's Office.
In fact, he prepared a list of 30 Questions.
Those were presented to the Mayor's Office.
On July 10.
In the July 11 newspaper article in the Tulsa World, the 30 questions indicated that Manhattan Construction was selected by a "bidding process".
There was no public notice as required under state competitive bidding law for construction projects over $25,000.
It was NOT a competitive bidding process according to state law.
Three companies MAY have stated that they submitted bids.
Wonder if a FOURTH construction company, or an out-of-state construction company, might just sue the City of Tulsa?
If you want the bidding process to be more transparent, take it up at the next City Council meeting. I believe the City publishes dates and times for the review of these projects here: http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Business/construction.asp
Also, you can see where they gave notice here: http://www.oklahomanotices.com/
It looks like they published it in June in the Legal and Commerce News.
You're really wrong on your timeline. Martinson asked his questions on the 9th of July, the same day the document I provided is dated -- it was published in the paper July 10 (that's how papers work, you don't print news from the future -- "today Bill Martinson will ask several questions about the stadium and the city will respond as follows"). http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080710_11_hr842284
You have no support for your argument that there was no bidding process at play here. I have given you a wealth of links and you have nothing other than your
assertions lies to the contrary. (And this is all comical since your initial argument in this thread is that no bids contracts are legal under the Title 60 sections dealing with public trusts.)
The notice to receive bids was published under state law, the group in charge met, and chose the bidder. That's exactly what the statute requires.
At least you now concede that the statute doesn't permit no bid contracts for public trusts (boy, that sure looks like a floater of an argument now).
I have no clue about the alleged "fourth" company and neither do you. Quit making stuff up. If you have something to show to the contrary, be my guest. Show 'em or ****dgeU.
I'm done with you for the day. Have more important things to do than watch you contradict yourself and make up facts.
But, for the record, you're wrong again.
Poor FB.
[:)]
(http://www.watson-palacios.org/photos/2006-england/CIMG1748.jpg)
Gold, you know every time you read and respond to one of FB's posts, God kills a kitten...
Bears drool, oligarchs rule!!! /sarcasm.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
At a Committee Meeting he chaired a few hours before the Council's 6-3 vote ON THE EVENING OF JULY 10, Mr. Martinsen stated he was preparing a list of questions for the Mayor's Office.
In fact, he prepared a list of 30 Questions.
Those were presented to the Mayor's Office.
On July 10.
In the July 11 newspaper article in the Tulsa World, the 30 questions indicated that Manhattan Construction was selected by a "bidding process".
There was no public notice as required under state competitive bidding law for construction projects over $25,000.
It was NOT a competitive bidding process according to state law.
Three companies MAY have stated that they submitted bids.
Wonder if a FOURTH construction company, or an out-of-state construction company, might just sue the City of Tulsa?
If you want the bidding process to be more transparent, take it up at the next City Council meeting. I believe the City publishes dates and times for the review of these projects here: http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Business/construction.asp
Also, you can see where they gave notice here: http://www.oklahomanotices.com/
It looks like they published it in June in the Legal and Commerce News.
You're really wrong on your timeline. Martinson asked his questions on the 9th of July, the same day the document I provided is dated -- it was published in the paper July 10 (that's how papers work, you don't print news from the future -- "today Bill Martinson will ask several questions about the stadium and the city will respond as follows"). http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080710_11_hr842284
You have no support for your argument that there was no bidding process at play here. I have given you a wealth of links and you have nothing other than your assertions lies to the contrary. (And this is all comical since your initial argument in this thread is that no bids contracts are legal under the Title 60 sections dealing with public trusts.)
The notice to receive bids was published under state law, the group in charge met, and chose the bidder. That's exactly what the statute requires.
At least you now concede that the statute doesn't permit no bid contracts for public trusts (boy, that sure looks like a floater of an argument now).
I have no clue about the alleged "fourth" company and neither do you. Quit making stuff up. If you have something to show to the contrary, be my guest. Show 'em or ****dgeU.
I'm done with you for the day. Have more important things to do than watch you contradict yourself and make up facts.
But, for the record, you're wrong again.
Poor FB.
[:)]
(http://www.watson-palacios.org/photos/2006-england/CIMG1748.jpg)
A City Government entity in the State of Oklahoma cannot publish a Request for Bid without a certification of sufficiency of funding signed by a city officer.
There was absolutely NO FUNDING SOURCE approvied in June.
Nada.
Say, can you give us the actual Link to the Legal News you cited?
Not that you need to actually PROVE anything, but it would be helpful.
Please?
The "bid process" was not even approved until July 10 by a City Council vote of 6-3.
You are the one floating something in this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
A City Government entity in the State of Oklahoma cannot publish a Request for Bid without a certification of sufficiency of funding signed by a city officer.
There was absolutely NO FUNDING SOURCE approvied in June.
Nada.
Say, can you give us the actual Link to the Legal News you cited?
Not that you need to actually PROVE anything, but it would be helpful.
Please?
The "bid process" was not even approved until July 10 by a City Council vote of 6-3.
You are the one floating something in this forum.
You need a citation for your argument regarding the certification. You've wasted enough of my time that I won't look it up. NO ONE has made that argument and you're a troll, so it really has no credibility. Quit it with that crap.
I gave you a link to a place that you can look. It's not a very good site, but it allows research in the the Legal and Commerce Journal. It's your burden to show they didn't publish. No one that is legitimate has made that argument. The city's sources are pretty clear that there was a bid process -- something you initially said didn't have to happen under Title 60's relevant section (you should be stopped from arguing anything else at this point).
And don't forget your lies about the dates of Martinson talking to the city . . . wow, that was a whopper . . .
You have no source that the City Council approves the bid process. Please show where what the Mayor's office did was illegal; I am aware of no such section in Title 60 or the city charter. Again, I think your beef might be with the council's power under the charter.
If you want to change that, move to Tulsa and get involved. Making up lies upon lies on the internet is not the solution.
I have provided virtually all the sourced material in this discussion. You have contradicted yourself a couple of times. You aren't very bright and really aren't qualified to talk city politics. You've read the World a couple of times and went to downtown in like 1987; that doesn't mean you know a damn thing. It's been your turn for several posts to support your arguments.
But you won't because you're a d!icktuck.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
(http://www.binghamtoncrimestoppers.org/case/files/2007/21/bear.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
A City Government entity in the State of Oklahoma cannot publish a Request for Bid without a certification of sufficiency of funding signed by a city officer.
There was absolutely NO FUNDING SOURCE approvied in June.
Nada.
Say, can you give us the actual Link to the Legal News you cited?
Not that you need to actually PROVE anything, but it would be helpful.
Please?
The "bid process" was not even approved until July 10 by a City Council vote of 6-3.
You are the one floating something in this forum.
You need a citation for your argument regarding the certification. You've wasted enough of my time that I won't look it up. NO ONE has made that argument and you're a troll, so it really has no credibility. Quit it with that crap.
I gave you a link to a place that you can look. It's not a very good site, but it allows research in the the Legal and Commerce Journal. It's your burden to show they didn't publish. No one that is legitimate has made that argument. The city's sources are pretty clear that there was a bid process -- something you initially said didn't have to happen under Title 60's relevant section (you should be stopped from arguing anything else at this point).
And don't forget your lies about the dates of Martinson talking to the city . . . wow, that was a whopper . . .
You have no source that the City Council approves the bid process. Please show where what the Mayor's office did was illegal; I am aware of no such section in Title 60 or the city charter. Again, I think your beef might be with the council's power under the charter.
If you want to change that, move to Tulsa and get involved. Making up lies upon lies on the internet is not the solution.
I have provided virtually all the sourced material in this discussion. You have contradicted yourself a couple of times. You aren't very bright and really aren't qualified to talk city politics. You've read the World a couple of times and went to downtown in like 1987; that doesn't mean you know a damn thing. It's been your turn for several posts to support your arguments.
But you won't because you're a d!icktuck.
Poor FB.
[}:)]
(http://www.binghamtoncrimestoppers.org/case/files/2007/21/bear.jpg)
Try checking the state constitution.
Cities or city entities cannot by our state constitution spend money that has not been certified by a city officer as "sufficient" to pay the obligation.
You're rehashing the vague phrase "Bid Process", again?
That is not COMPETITIVE bidding following state law, with NOTICE, a Bid period, bid specifications, and a selection of the Lowest and Best Bid.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Try checking the state constitution.
Cities or city entities cannot by our state constitution spend money that has not been certified by a city officer as "sufficient" to pay the obligation.
You're rehashing the vague phrase "Bid Process", again?
That is not COMPETITIVE bidding following state law, with NOTICE, a Bid period, bid specifications, and a selection of the Lowest and Best Bid.
I'm not checking the state constitution. I'm aware of no provision within it that is on point for your argument; if you can find it, please give me a cite and I'll take a look. But you've been wrong so many times in this discussion, I've got to presume you're wrong again.
Remember, you said they weren't required to get bids.
It turns out they got bids and were required to under the very statute you cited for the opposite point.
So, you've been wrong all along at every step of this discussion and you want me to go and read every vague section of the Oklahoma Constitution. Sorry -- if you have an argument, make it.
We know they took three bids. If you want to provide a source that supports your argument about the bid's illegal proces, go ahead. I'm done. People are presumed innocent in this country and for you to accuse the mayor's office of criminal acts (that was a laugher) just shows your ignorance and jealousy.
But you don't . . .
just like you don't have support for 99% of the crap you spew on here . . .
from your tinfoil hat conspiracy . . .
F&M bank . . .
KT . . .
BOK . . .
Tulsa World . . .
Blah blah blah
But what else would you expect from a d!cktuck?
Poor FB.
He sucks at life.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/342836716_8a866dfceb.jpg?v=1167767645)
*crickets*