Our high maintenance mayor wants to indebt the city taxpayers in a downtown TIF for THIRTY years to partially fund the construction of a new baseball stadium.
She seems to like indebting Tulsa's citizens for THIRTY year deals.
The financing of the move of the city hall to the OTC building is another: A 30 year loan.
Deals that will be around long, long after Mayor Kathy Taylor is gone (but not forgotten as we'll still be paying for her long, long afterwards).
Really, Mrs. Kitty is a high maintenance woman.
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
Why don't some of the supporters of this new tax-and-spend scheme recite all the reasons why this is good for the citizens of Tulsa.
I'll list a few why it just ISN'T good:
1) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.
We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
2) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has lights.
It has good, sanitary, concessions.
It has functioning relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
3) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
4) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within easy walking distance.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the 'hood where Mrs. Kitty wants to build a new stadium.
5) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
6) Driller Stadium is not located right next to an oil refinery, a 6 lane expressway, or the 'hood.
7) If team owner Mr. Lamebrain wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
We can easily find another team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts.
8) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
9) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamebrain really wants competition for food and drink sales from the Blue Dome or Brady Districts.
Hmmmmh?
10) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making him money on the construction side?
Will he be a silent partner with the local construction cabal?
Likely JV name? Tulsa Stadium Builders?
I'm waiting to hear the stadium promoters offer their selling points.
BATTER-UP!
[:)]
FB came out of hibernation to ramble about how he doesn't like the deal, so the new ballpark is obviously a great thing for Tulsa.
So easy to pick you apart:
The first and foremost reason for building a new stadium is that the Drillers not only want a new one, they have entered talks with Jenks for building one. Unless we want to see the Drillers move to Jenks (along with the resulting sales tax revenue) we need to step up to the plate.
1) So what?
2) See above.
3) The current stadium is too large. The new stadium will be the right size. So what?
4) Patently untrue about the safety factor. And if a person parks on the street, it will be free since you only have to plug parking meters between 8-5:30 M-F.
5) Downtown is the convergence of the major expressways in town as well as future light rail. The new stadium will be better served by expressways than the current site, making it MORE accessible, not less.
6) ???? A six-lane expressway is good for access. The new stadium will also not be located next to an oil refinery nor the "hood".
7) Tell that to Wichita, which lost its team this year due to lack of a new stadium.
8) ???? So let me see... there's a market for the product, so we SHOULDN'T build a venue for that product???? Put down the crack pipe.
9) Lamson is completely on board with the move, so you happen to be wrong.
10) Paranoid rant.
Might be kind of late for this discussion. Done deal.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Our high maintenance mayor wants to indebt the city taxpayers in a downtown TIF for THIRTY years to partially fund the construction of a new baseball stadium.
She seems to like indebting Tulsa's citizens for THIRTY year deals.
The financing of the move of the city hall to the OTC building is another: A 30 year loan.
Deals that will be around long, long after Mayor Kathy Taylor is gone (but not forgotten as we'll still be paying for her long, long afterwards).
Really, Mrs. Kitty is a high maintenance woman.
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
Why don't some of the supporters of this new tax-and-spend scheme recite all the reasons why this is good for the citizens of Tulsa.
I'll list a few why it just ISN'T good:
1) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.
We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
2) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has lights.
It has good, sanitary, concessions.
It has functioning relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
3) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
4) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within easy walking distance.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the 'hood where Mrs. Kitty wants to build a new stadium.
5) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
6) Driller Stadium is not located right next to an oil refinery, a 6 lane expressway, or the 'hood.
7) If team owner Mr. Lamebrain wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
We can easily find another team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts.
8) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
9) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamebrain really wants competition for food and drink sales from the Blue Dome or Brady Districts.
Hmmmmh?
10) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making him money on the construction side?
Will he be a silent partner with the local construction cabal?
Likely JV name? Tulsa Stadium Builders?
I'm waiting to hear the stadium promoters offer their selling points.
BATTER-UP!
[:)]
The current stadium is paid for yes, but the Drillers had already made it clear they ARE MOVING no matter what. They had signed a letter of intent to move to Jenks. So we stood to lose the Drillers and be left holding an empty stadium (albeit, paid for). Do you really think ANOTHER minor league team would come here when the Drillers would be right down the road in Jenks? Talk about an oversaturated market. So Kathy 1) kept the Drillers in Tulsa, and 2) put something downtown that will be yet ANOTHER draw. I think this is a brilliant move on her part. If she had let them move to Jenks, you would have lambasted her for that too, I'm sure.
9/11
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
9/11
It changed everything!
Lets not also forget, that the fair board wants the Drillers gone either way, so there lease would not be renewed in the near future anyway.
This way we don't lose the team, the tax base, and we keep our all knowing fair board happy.
Plus for me this means I will be a season ticket holder year in and year out with the movie. The team is in walking distance from my "hood" on the west side of downtown. Yeah I am willing to talk in the summer heat to watch baseball.
As for parking, no large parking lot, be it scattered about or in one location is safe. Hell when people have to park in different areas that means there is less cars to cover said vandals and thieves donkey while they commit there crimes. Plus lets not forget about the bike patrols we have downtown, and the extra police, so I think everyone will be safe in the "hood."
Also as for seating, all the proposed "renderings" and "designs" I have seem make it seem like there is room for future expansion. I have a feeling we could expand to 10,000 seats if the need came up.
As for the cost increases, I have a feeling some of that money is going to the Greenwood Chamber, so at the end of the day it should help spear even more development.
As for the tax downtown, those businesses are used to it I am sad to say, if you want to wait a few years and lose the Drillers we could get donors to bay the other half too, but what team would want to come here? None, Jenks is just to close they would be feeding off the same user base. In 10 years maybe we could support two teams though.
According to an article in today's Tulsa World (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080628_11_A1_hNobod147541%22), no one spoke for or against the proposed assessment district at the actual presentation.
However, the article has a couple of quotes from after the meeting:
quote:
from P.J. Lassek's article (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080628_11_A1_hNobod147541%22) in the June 28, 2008 Tulsa World:
Paul Wilson of Twenty First Properties said after the meeting that he "cannot support the mayor's plan to tax downtown property owners at a rate six times greater than the current assessment." Wilson said the company owns property primarily located at 11th Street and Denver Avenue.
He said properties next to the ballpark would enjoy higher value and increased services and should pay at a higher rate, instead of having a flat rate for all properties.
Michael Sager owns more than 20 pieces of property, some in the far East Village and the rest in the Blue Dome area near the proposed ballpark site.
"I firmly support the assessment district," he said. "The effect ballparks have in downtown areas is documented in many cities."
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the current assessments are generally higher the closer a property is to the small fountain in the middle of the Avenue of the Sister Cities where it intersects with Main Maul. The new assessments will most likely be a worse deal for the owners of properties near the southwest corner of downtown and a sweeter deal for the owners of properties near the northeast corner of downtown, and possibly for the owners of properties near 5th & Main.
And if the City Council approves the proposed new downtown improvement district, then yes, it appears as though it will be a done deal in a few weeks.
Yes it's "up to a 6x increase" but in the grand scheme of what it costs to own and operate a business, it's pretty much a drop in the bucket.
Perhaps.
But Paul Wilson was quoted by P.J. Lassek, so it might be, as a representative of Twenty First Properties, that he simply cannot support the mayor's plan.
Think about what the current special assessment district is supposed to provide. Do you think that downtown property owners are currently receiving satisfactory service from DTU at a mere 1/6th of the proposed new assessment rate?
Don't be surprised if some downtown property owners are a bit leery of the proposed long-term assessments. The mayor's presentation was yesterday. The same Tulsa World article mentioned a City Council vote on July 10th. To me, this doesn't seem like much time for public input on quasi-public downtown project of this magnitude.
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
Perhaps.
But Paul Wilson was quoted by P.J. Lassek, so it might be, as a representative of Twenty First Properties, that he simply cannot support the mayor's plan.
Think about what the current special assessment district is supposed to provide. Do you think that downtown property owners are currently receiving satisfactory service from DTU at a mere 1/6th of the proposed new assessment rate?
Don't be surprised if some downtown property owners are a bit leery of the proposed long-term assessments. The mayor's presentation was yesterday. The same Tulsa World article mentioned a City Council vote on July 10th. To me, this doesn't seem like much time for public input on quasi-public downtown project of this magnitude.
To your point, it would be more equitable if the assessment were higher for properties closer to the ballpark (NE downtown) and lower for properties further away (SW downtown). Paul Wilson/Twenty First Properties would be happy and could get back to doing absolutely nothing with their holdings.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
To your point, it would be more equitable if the assessment were higher for properties closer to the ballpark (NE downtown) and lower for properties further away (SW downtown)...
At first glance, tiered assessments based on distance from the ballpark seem to me as though they'd be more equitable. However, I'm not familiar enough with the existing or the new assessments to say what is fair.
Apparently, according to P.J. Lassek, Paul Wilson is not pleased with the ramifications the new assessments will have for Twenty First Properties. As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained. If Twenty First Properties is trying to emulate the Tulsa Development Authority, then they may be holding on to vacant real estate for decades to come.
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
To your point, it would be more equitable if the assessment were higher for properties closer to the ballpark (NE downtown) and lower for properties further away (SW downtown)...
At first glance, tiered assessments based on distance from the ballpark seem to me as though they'd be more equitable. However, I'm not familiar enough with the existing or the new assessments to say what is fair.
Apparently, according to P.J. Lassek, Paul Wilson is not pleased with the ramifications the new assessments will have for Twenty First Properties. As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained. If Twenty First Properties is trying to emulate the Tulsa Development Authority, then they may be holding on to vacant real estate for decades to come.
Boo, you are straight keepin' it real. The simple answer to the question that is the title to this thread is that we don't need a new stadium. This is purely a question of wants, not of needs.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
The simple answer to the question that is the title to this thread is that we don't need a new stadium. This is purely a question of wants, not of needs.
You beat me to the punch. I was getting ready to post something very similar to what you said about wants versus needs.
I'd like to see more realism on this forum.
Some people want a baseball stadium downtown. No one actually needs one.
Some people would love to have the option of riding rail transit in Tulsa, but a true "need" for it is dubious.
Some people wanted a hydroelectric dam across the river, a lake with islands, highrise apartment buildings on the islands, etc. But somehow Tulsa has managed to survive without any of that.
There are many examples. Some questions I think we ought to be asking about large projects funded wholly or substantially by the public:
- Who wants to do what?
- Why?
- Exactly where and for how much cost?
- Who will pay? How will they pay and for how long?
- Who will benefit? How much and for how long?
- How fair and unfair is it likely to be to how many people?
- How does the proposal fit into the Comprehensive Plan, if at all?
- How does the project fit into its immediate surroundings? Into a larger urban context?
- How long will it take to build the project?
- What will be its probable lifespan?
- What happens when the project is no longer useful, wanted, or "needed"?
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him...
You're incorrect. I'm arguing that land owners have the option of doing nothing with their holdings as long as they maintain them according to codes and pay the property taxes.
I am arguing that the City should not PUNISH those who acquire property and hold it for years and years as the Tulsa Development Authority does. Who owns the vacant land between Easton and Jasper from Cheyenne to Cincinnati? What's being done with that vacant land?
Since 1992, when I read Paul Wilson's explanation of the 'Gateway Project,' (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=352217%22) I have seen next to nothing happen with the Twenty First Properties land except demolition and more surface parking lots. But that's precisely what Wilson said they'd be doing with their property:
quote:
from the Tulsa World (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=352217%22), September 27, 1992:
When [Twenty First Properties] closed a deal this summer on the "Bowen Corner" tract, a lounge-liquor store site on the southeast corner of 11th Street and Denver Avenue, the real estate community speculated about new development. Rumors even surfaced about some major demolition plans for the area.
Well, this past week, the demolition work began and Twenty First Properties President Paul Wilson came forward to explain what the heck they're up to.
Nothing in the way of development, Wilson said - at least not right now. As another gesture to the long-term investment posture the company has consistently maintained, Twenty First Properties is putting into motion a concept it calls the "Gateway Project."
The name doesn't refer to any specific structure. Instead, it is the moniker given to an idea built around the fact Denver Avenue is a "gateway" for the 28,000 people who commute into the downtown area daily.
"We call it a private urban renewal plan," Wilson said.
Cosmetically, the project involves razing vacant or blighted buildings, and replacing them with landscaped greens. In a more abstract manner, Wilson said the plan essentially will prepare the site for development.
"There is no catalyst other than to stabilize this area for some point in the future," Wilson emphasized...
...Further to the east, Boston Avenue United Methodist Church, First Methodist Church, Blue Cross and Blue Shield and Tulsa Junior College have been buying property for their own uses, Wilson said. Most of the property is being converted into parking spaces, but the effect has been that these entities have turned some previously blighted areas into usable, well-maintained spaces.
There's no timetable on the Gateway Project but Wilson estimates the clearing and improvements on his company's part will be completed in a year to 18 months. He said neither his company nor other firms are negotiating for potential developments...
This is some of the most accurate reporting I've ever seen from the
Tulsa World! The
emphases in the quote are mine.
So Paul Wilson told the truth. So what if you don't like hearing the truth?
How long did the Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority and/or Tulsa Development Authority hold the property on the northwest corner of 11th and Denver before the Renaissance apartments were built?
Reality check: Large chunks of land have been held for long periods of time in central Tulsa, with much of this land under the control of the Tulsa Development Authority or the Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority.
Many of us (myself included) do not care to see the decades roll by with nothing being done with these parcels other than demolition and the construction of more parking lots. So what? That's reality.
I'm not saying I like this reality, and I think it can be changed. But for now, it's Tulsa's reality. I didn't enjoy seeing the Skelly Building razed and replaced with a parking lot. But as Joe Worley pointed out, World Publishing purchased the Skelly Building for their private use. It was their decision to tear it down. Period.
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
Perhaps.
But Paul Wilson was quoted by P.J. Lassek, so it might be, as a representative of Twenty First Properties, that he simply cannot support the mayor's plan.
Think about what the current special assessment district is supposed to provide. Do you think that downtown property owners are currently receiving satisfactory service from DTU at a mere 1/6th of the proposed new assessment rate?
Don't be surprised if some downtown property owners are a bit leery of the proposed long-term assessments. The mayor's presentation was yesterday. The same Tulsa World article mentioned a City Council vote on July 10th. To me, this doesn't seem like much time for public input on quasi-public downtown project of this magnitude.
The devil believes the churches need to put in their portion. No free ride. Especially to heaven.
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
The simple answer to the question that is the title to this thread is that we don't need a new stadium. This is purely a question of wants, not of needs.
You beat me to the punch. I was getting ready to post something very similar to what you said about wants versus needs.
I'd like to see more realism on this forum.
Some people want a baseball stadium downtown. No one actually needs one.
Some people would love to have the option of riding rail transit in Tulsa, but a true "need" for it is dubious.
Some people wanted a hydroelectric dam across the river, a lake with islands, highrise apartment buildings on the islands, etc. But somehow Tulsa has managed to survive without any of that.
There are many examples. Some questions I think we ought to be asking about large projects funded wholly or substantially by the public:
- Who wants to do what?
- Why?
- Exactly where and for how much cost?
- Who will pay? How will they pay and for how long?
- Who will benefit? How much and for how long?
- How fair and unfair is it likely to be to how many people?
- How does the proposal fit into the Comprehensive Plan, if at all?
- How does the project fit into its immediate surroundings? Into a larger urban context?
- How long will it take to build the project?
- What will be its probable lifespan?
- What happens when the project is no longer useful, wanted, or "needed"?
Wow, a questioning voice out of the Wilderness?
Glad you're not drinking the TulsaMetroChamberPots Kool-Aid, either.
[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.
Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.
And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations: The 'hood.
Everyone knows it.
But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.
Are you?
The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.
My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.
Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.
Ouch!
Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.
How much longer can we afford her?
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
[:(]
Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.
But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.
Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.
I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.
But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.
Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.
I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.
If we didn't already have a ballpark, that might mean something. You are really grasping for straws there. I wonder how any of the Councilors can support this Ballpark plan when they all took the position that government should not be subsidizing private business at the last Council meeting. Last time I checked, the Drillers are privately owned. Unless the city plans on buying the drillers too, I don't see how they could justify supporting it in light of their statements.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I wonder how any of the Councilors can support this Ballpark plan when they all took the position that government should not be subsidizing private business at the last Council meeting...
From what I've seen in the news, Gomez and Henderson seem to be in favor of the ballpark. My guess is that the proposed new assessment district will be approved.
Just my hunch --- we'll see very soon.
We don't need a new stadium.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.
Where was the PAC before it moved to 2nd and Cincinnati?
What's now known as the Brady Theater (at the northwest corner of Boulder and Brady) served as Tulsa's Municipal Theater before the PAC opened in the late 1970s. Before the PAC was built, Tulsans did not have the option of parking in a multi-level underground garage directly adjacent to Tulsa's municipal auditorium.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/J0012.jpg)
Photo source: Beryl Ford Collection | Rotary Club of Tulsa | Tulsa Historical Society | Tulsa City-County Library
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.
But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.
Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.
I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.
It will definitely be COOL as a open-air stadium from about November through February here in frigid winter clime N.E. Oklahoma.
Bring a blanket with your heavy coat.
It will be used approximately 66 times per year for Drillers home games during the temperate months.
If reconfigured, it can be used for a soccer game. Probably excess seating for a soccer game.
It probably lacks the accoustics for enjoyable open-air concerts, but we already have a new $140 million arena (for $200 million)for those desirous of an Arena style concert.
We already have a perfectly adequate PAID FOR stadium.
When it starts to fall down due to neglect of maintenance by our Tulsa County commissioners, they we can consider replacing it.
That's how the County operates. Defer maintenance until a building functionally obsolesces, or falls into ruin.
That's how the current Driller stadium was constructed; part of the Oilers stadium literally collapsed.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
What's now known as the Brady Theater (at the northwest corner of Boulder and Brady) served as Tulsa's Municipal Theater before the PAC opened in the late 1970s. Before the PAC was built, Tulsans did not have the option of parking in a multi-level underground garage directly adjacent to Tulsa's municipal auditorium.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/J0012.jpg)
Photo source: Beryl Ford Collection | Rotary Club of Tulsa | Tulsa Historical Society | Tulsa City-County Library
There's not a bad seat in the house at the Brady.
Slightly smaller than the PAC, but not by a huge amount.
The Old Lady of Brady has some class.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
I've walked to shows at the Cain's and Brady dozens of times over years and years. It's fine. Greenwood is not near to any "bad areas" and gangs don't hang out in the area at night.
Talk about Kook-Aid; how's your refreshment stand doing?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
I've walked to shows at the Cain's and Brady dozens of times over years and years. It's fine. Greenwood is not near to any "bad areas" and gangs don't hang out in the area at night.
Talk about Kook-Aid; how's your refreshment stand doing?
Have you bumped into any packs of youths armed with long sticks transitting to the Brady?
I have.
No, no angry groups of kids ever. Are you sure they weren't fishing poles?
Talk about Freudian slips, I really did intend to spell Kool-aid. Sorry FB.[;)]
The Brady is entirely inadequate as a full service PAC. It lacks the stage space, the amenities, and the technical requirements for a modern theater. Productions such as Phantom, Lion King and other marquee events simply would bypass Tulsa.
Not too mention the municipal ownership of the PAC allows the smaller halls and practice areas to be used by other groups. Small local productions would take up too much time and space while not returning enough revenue to make cent$ for the Brady. I love the Brady, but a PAC for the entire community it is not (even if it were run as a non-profit it would probably not suffice).
- - -
Someone mentioned whispers that the fair board wants Driller's stadium gone, where did you hear that and WHY do they want that?
- - -
FB/Boo/Double A,
What part of "the Drillers are actively shopping for a new stadium and reach a tentative agreement with Jenks" do you not understand? Are you in favor of allowing the Drillers (and the resulting sales tax revenue) to move to Jenks?
Do you not see this as an economic development investment for the next 30 years and an anchor for downtown to boot? We'll have a $60 million investment at the crossroads of Blue Dome, Brady and Greenwood - HALF of which will be private contributions.
A new ballpark isn't a priority like police, ambulance service, streets, or water, but the proposed financing reflects that -- there is no broad-based tax increase. The citizens will be getting this amenity on someone else's dime. The people who stand to benefit the most from the stadium (downtown property owners) will foot less than half the bill, the rest comes from the Drillers and private donations.
Sometimes the glass really is half full.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.
Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.
And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations: The 'hood.
Everyone knows it.
But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.
Are you?
The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.
My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.
Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.
Ouch!
Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.
How much longer can we afford her?
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
[:(]
This is just silly. There isn't much around the area of the proposed stadium. I drove by on the way home from Cain's at about 12:30 AM Sunday morning. No criminals, no gangs, nothing. Businesses with lights off and OSU Tulsa -- that's it.
I go downtown every weekend and I've never seen a gang. The worst thing to happen is someone asked me for change. I told them no. Once or twice, I saw what looked like a really bad off prostitute near that really sad block across from Deadtown. Other than that, I've seen nothing down there, especially near "Greenwood."
The homeless shelter is a good half mile away. I'm not happy with the shelter being down there, but that's a whole other discussion.
If gangs went wherever there was money, events like D-fest and Mayfest and all the Indian casinos wouldn't exist. Poor logic yet again.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
I've walked to shows at the Cain's and Brady dozens of times over years and years. It's fine. Greenwood is not near to any "bad areas" and gangs don't hang out in the area at night.
Talk about Kook-Aid; how's your refreshment stand doing?
Have you bumped into any packs of youths armed with long sticks transitting to the Brady?
I have.
Probably a baseball team. If you had ever seen a baseball game, you would know that baseball players use bats to hit the ball.
This is just silly stuff. If there was a raving Clockwork Orange-esque pack of youths, please call the police.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
FB/Boo/Double A,
What part of "the Drillers are actively shopping for a new stadium and reach a tentative agreement with Jenks" do you not understand? Are you in favor of allowing the Drillers (and the resulting sales tax revenue) to move to Jenks?
Do you not see this as an economic development investment for the next 30 years and an anchor for downtown to boot? We'll have a $60 million investment at the crossroads of Blue Dome, Brady and Greenwood - HALF of which will be private contributions.
A new ballpark isn't a priority like police, ambulance service, streets, or water, but the proposed financing reflects that -- there is no broad-based tax increase. The citizens will be getting this amenity on someone else's dime. The people who stand to benefit the most from the stadium (downtown property owners) will foot less than half the bill, the rest comes from the Drillers and private donations.
Sometimes the glass really is half full.
Just don't insult my intelligence by telling the public we need this. You may want it, but the public does not need it. I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown. Just look at all the money that has been spent on Downtown with pathetic, if any, return on the investment while the rest of the city sits in a state of neglect. What private investor in their right mind would continue to throw their money away on an investment with such poor returns?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
FB/Boo/Double A,
What part of "the Drillers are actively shopping for a new stadium and reach a tentative agreement with Jenks" do you not understand? Are you in favor of allowing the Drillers (and the resulting sales tax revenue) to move to Jenks?
Do you not see this as an economic development investment for the next 30 years and an anchor for downtown to boot? We'll have a $60 million investment at the crossroads of Blue Dome, Brady and Greenwood - HALF of which will be private contributions.
A new ballpark isn't a priority like police, ambulance service, streets, or water, but the proposed financing reflects that -- there is no broad-based tax increase. The citizens will be getting this amenity on someone else's dime. The people who stand to benefit the most from the stadium (downtown property owners) will foot less than half the bill, the rest comes from the Drillers and private donations.
Sometimes the glass really is half full.
Just don't insult my intelligence by telling the public we need this. You may want it, but the public does not need it. I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown. Just look at all the money that has been spent on Downtown with pathetic, if any, return on the investment while the rest of the city sits in a state of neglect. What private investor in their right would continue to throw their money away on an investment with such poor returns?
Any investor in their right mind would buy the Nordam and Bill White properties now and release them back for 3 years to their current tenants.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown.
I believe you are in the minority on this one. Downtown is doing very well right now. Occupancy rates are up, new restaurants have opened and the after-hours clubs are beginning to get busy.
The arena is going to make everything better downtown. When this ballpark opens, the place to be is going to be downtown.
Why are you so negative?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown.
I believe you are in the minority on this one. Downtown is doing very well right now. Occupancy rates are up, new restaurants have opened and the after-hours clubs are beginning to get busy.
The arena is going to make everything better downtown. When this ballpark opens, the place to be is going to be downtown.
Why are you so negative?
Recycle is, well, recycling DTU and MetroTulsaCrackedChamberPot propaganda that they pull out and dust off after every "magical" transformation that is supposed to occur when public money is expended downtown.
They said it when the Maxwell Convention Center was proposed.
They said it with the Williams Tower urban renewal steamroller.
They said it with the PAC, and minimized the significant cost overruns.
They said it with the downtown Main Mall. Which, 20 years later they decide to tear it up and re-open the streets.
They said it with Vision 2025, and the $140 million arena that will cost at least $200 million.
Mrs. Kitty said it when we overpaid by a factor of 3x on the One Technology Center.
Now, "just one more nail", per Mrs. Kitty, and downtown will be fixed if we only build a new baseball stadium --- DOWNTOWN.
Check back with me when there is a Walmart Neighborhood market downtown.
And, quit drinking the MetroTulsaChamberCrackPots Kool-Aid, ASAP.
It causes causes caries and promotes morbid obesity.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.
Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.
And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations: The 'hood.
Everyone knows it.
But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.
Are you?
The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.
My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.
Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.
Ouch!
Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.
How much longer can we afford her?
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
[:(]
This is just silly. There isn't much around the area of the proposed stadium. I drove by on the way home from Cain's at about 12:30 AM Sunday morning. No criminals, no gangs, nothing. Businesses with lights off and OSU Tulsa -- that's it.
I go downtown every weekend and I've never seen a gang. The worst thing to happen is someone asked me for change. I told them no. Once or twice, I saw what looked like a really bad off prostitute near that really sad block across from Deadtown. Other than that, I've seen nothing down there, especially near "Greenwood."
The homeless shelter is a good half mile away. I'm not happy with the shelter being down there, but that's a whole other discussion.
If gangs went wherever there was money, events like D-fest and Mayfest and all the Indian casinos wouldn't exist. Poor logic yet again.
Uh-Uh.
I said WALK.
Driving isn't the same.
Try WALKING the same area about 11 p.m, after a theoretical downtown Drillers game could end, and you have to walk 4 lonely blocks to where you think you left your car.....
Are those footsteps behind you in the dark?
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Uh-Uh.
I said WALK.
Driving isn't the same.
Try WALKING the same area about 11 p.m, after a theoretical downtown Drillers game could end, and you have to walk 4 lonely blocks to where you think you left your car.....
Are those footsteps behind you in the dark?
[}:)]
I'll bite, since we've established that anecdotal evidence is admissable. I walk downtown (ALL around downtown) on a regular basis. I've never once seen anything similar to what you a describing. I've seen business people, cleaning crews, a couple of homeless people, a couple of people walking around just like me, but I've never seen anybody in that corner of downtown at night.
Sorry, but it sounds like you are just being a silly old Pooh-Bear.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.
Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.
And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations: The 'hood.
Everyone knows it.
But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.
Are you?
The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.
My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.
Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.
Ouch!
Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.
How much longer can we afford her?
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
[:(]
This is just silly. There isn't much around the area of the proposed stadium. I drove by on the way home from Cain's at about 12:30 AM Sunday morning. No criminals, no gangs, nothing. Businesses with lights off and OSU Tulsa -- that's it.
I go downtown every weekend and I've never seen a gang. The worst thing to happen is someone asked me for change. I told them no. Once or twice, I saw what looked like a really bad off prostitute near that really sad block across from Deadtown. Other than that, I've seen nothing down there, especially near "Greenwood."
The homeless shelter is a good half mile away. I'm not happy with the shelter being down there, but that's a whole other discussion.
If gangs went wherever there was money, events like D-fest and Mayfest and all the Indian casinos wouldn't exist. Poor logic yet again.
Uh-Uh.
I said WALK.
Driving isn't the same.
Try WALKING the same area about 11 p.m, after a theoretical downtown Drillers game could end, and you have to walk 4 lonely blocks to where you think you left your car.....
Are those footsteps behind you in the dark?
[}:)]
That's not accurate and you know it. The development plan calls for a lot of in-fill, including the area around the stadium that is empty.
Go north a block and you are at OSU Tulsa. Go south and you are in the Blue Dome. There are already plenty of people walking around the Blue Dome area and the Brady District to the west -- there are a few pandhandlers, but mostly it's a younger crowd eating and drinking at the new bars and going to concerts.
I take it you don't get out much. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you heard sounds in your head a lot.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Just don't insult my intelligence by telling the public we need this. You may want it, but the public does not need it. I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown. Just look at all the money that has been spent on Downtown with pathetic, if any, return on the investment while the rest of the city sits in a state of neglect. What private investor in their right mind would continue to throw their money away on an investment with such poor returns?
Double A...... so you are placing your opinion of how money should be invested above Kanbar, Snider, Nelson, Sager, etc..
It is called "venture capitalism"....
They are not out to invest their money in the entire city..
Sorry about certain parts being "neglected". but I think the idea is ....Get the economic engine running and the rest will be taken care of by the increased tax revenue.
They are buying low to sell high...it's the American way..
Downtown is quickly approaching a flash point.....
I love (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Fire1.gif)
p.s.
Thank God Friendly Bear is not a Tax Collector....... With his criminal thought pattern we would be in deep doo doo.
New stadium needs to incorporate an homage to Greenwood or it will be the nail in the coffin of what's left of the old neighborhood.
Entire city (or at least someone else) needs to pick up the part of the financing being pushed onto downtown. Everyone, not just downtown, will benefit and you don't want to put a new burden on an area you are trying to encourage to grow.
Mr. Bear, Your fear of the Greenwood area is funny, until you realize that it's the same fear behind the racism that is still so prevalent hereabouts.
I still think a stadium on the river would be more of a destination and close enough to downtown to still be some benefit to downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Try WALKING the same area about 11 p.m, after a theoretical downtown Drillers game could end, and you have to walk 4 lonely blocks to where you think you left your car.....
Are those footsteps behind you in the dark?
[}:)]
Been there. Done that. Nothing to report. I was perfectly safe.
You continue to be a bald-faced lying propoganda machine. Your continued fabrications prove that you're in someone's pocket. So who stands to gain the most by your lies? Most likely the Homebuilder's Association and/or one of the suburbs. Which one of them is paying you off?
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.
Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.
And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations: The 'hood.
Everyone knows it.
But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.
Are you?
The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.
My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.
Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.
Ouch!
Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.
How much longer can we afford her?
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
[:(]
This is just silly. There isn't much around the area of the proposed stadium. I drove by on the way home from Cain's at about 12:30 AM Sunday morning. No criminals, no gangs, nothing. Businesses with lights off and OSU Tulsa -- that's it.
I go downtown every weekend and I've never seen a gang. The worst thing to happen is someone asked me for change. I told them no. Once or twice, I saw what looked like a really bad off prostitute near that really sad block across from Deadtown. Other than that, I've seen nothing down there, especially near "Greenwood."
The homeless shelter is a good half mile away. I'm not happy with the shelter being down there, but that's a whole other discussion.
If gangs went wherever there was money, events like D-fest and Mayfest and all the Indian casinos wouldn't exist. Poor logic yet again.
Uh-Uh.
I said WALK.
Driving isn't the same.
Try WALKING the same area about 11 p.m, after a theoretical downtown Drillers game could end, and you have to walk 4 lonely blocks to where you think you left your car.....
Are those footsteps behind you in the dark?
[}:)]
That's not accurate and you know it. The development plan calls for a lot of in-fill, including the area around the stadium that is empty.
Go north a block and you are at OSU Tulsa. Go south and you are in the Blue Dome. There are already plenty of people walking around the Blue Dome area and the Brady District to the west -- there are a few pandhandlers, but mostly it's a younger crowd eating and drinking at the new bars and going to concerts.
I take it you don't get out much. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you heard sounds in your head a lot.
Right.
Of course, forgot that you're going to use your Star Trek Matter Transporter to move from area to area downtown at night.
Beam me to McNellie's, Scotty.
And, HURRY!
PLLUUUEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZE!!
BEAM ME UP, FAST!
[:P]
Why is this the mental image I get of FB?
(http://photos6.flickr.com/6071754_14b54a27cb_m.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Why is this the mental image I get of FB?
(http://photos6.flickr.com/6071754_14b54a27cb_m.jpg)
How dare you malign a distinguished, decorated Vietnam War officer, who gave his legs for his county:
Lt. Dan.
You must be a Barack Hussein Obama supporter...
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
How dare you malign a distinguished, decorated Vietnam War officer, who gave his legs for his county:
Lt. Dan.
You must be a Barack Hussein Obama supporter...
He gave his legs for his county?
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
How dare you malign a distinguished, decorated Vietnam War officer, who gave his legs for his county:
Lt. Dan.
You must be a Barack Hussein Obama supporter...
He gave his legs for his county?
Most certainly.
Just like us. We're giving an Arm AND a Leg in taxes to our local County Goobermint.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.
Do you ever listen to yourself? You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes. Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him. Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.
And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk. Greenwood is safe. You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.
Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.
Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.
The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.
LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.
Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.
And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations: The 'hood.
Everyone knows it.
But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.
Are you?
The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.
My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.
Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.
Ouch!
Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.
How much longer can we afford her?
Poor Mr. Lobeck.
Poor Tulsa.
[:(]
This is just silly. There isn't much around the area of the proposed stadium. I drove by on the way home from Cain's at about 12:30 AM Sunday morning. No criminals, no gangs, nothing. Businesses with lights off and OSU Tulsa -- that's it.
I go downtown every weekend and I've never seen a gang. The worst thing to happen is someone asked me for change. I told them no. Once or twice, I saw what looked like a really bad off prostitute near that really sad block across from Deadtown. Other than that, I've seen nothing down there, especially near "Greenwood."
The homeless shelter is a good half mile away. I'm not happy with the shelter being down there, but that's a whole other discussion.
If gangs went wherever there was money, events like D-fest and Mayfest and all the Indian casinos wouldn't exist. Poor logic yet again.
Uh-Uh.
I said WALK.
Driving isn't the same.
Try WALKING the same area about 11 p.m, after a theoretical downtown Drillers game could end, and you have to walk 4 lonely blocks to where you think you left your car.....
Are those footsteps behind you in the dark?
[}:)]
That's not accurate and you know it. The development plan calls for a lot of in-fill, including the area around the stadium that is empty.
Go north a block and you are at OSU Tulsa. Go south and you are in the Blue Dome. There are already plenty of people walking around the Blue Dome area and the Brady District to the west -- there are a few pandhandlers, but mostly it's a younger crowd eating and drinking at the new bars and going to concerts.
I take it you don't get out much. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you heard sounds in your head a lot.
Right.
Of course, forgot that you're going to use your Star Trek Matter Transporter to move from area to area downtown at night.
Beam me to McNellie's, Scotty.
And, HURRY!
PLLUUUEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZE!!
BEAM ME UP, FAST!
[:P]
That doesn't even make sense.
I went to McNellie's last night and really paid attention to the distance. You can see the area where the ballpark is going to go from the parking lot next to McNellie's. It looks to be a similar walk that you would take from the parking lot at Drillers games.
But, I guess you just muble some nonsense when you know you're wrong.
I will feed the bear in this regard: the Brady District is a bit shady at night. There are many transient (read: bums) that hang around. The bars have a very mixed group of people. It is close to several "clubs" that have issues from time to time and the area is close to some sketchy parts of town.
I've felt uncomfortable walking to my car from Cain's before. I've never had any problems in the area and don't hesitate to go back, but many people are turned off just by things that are different. The Brady District itself is different and the people it attracts are of varying backgrounds, races, incomes etc.
HOWEVER, the presence of other people is a cure all for that. If a Driller game gets out at 11pm on a Friday you will have the normal bar crowd plus 5,000 people. So the feeling of being alone in the dark in a warehouse district won't exactly apply. Add to that - the way to make the area more secure feeling is to develop it more. Which is what's proposed. Add some new structures, some better lighting (never understood why the area is so poorly lit between bars), and some more people and it's a non-issue.
Also, CONNECT the Brady with the Blue Dome. Light the way, throw some signs in there. Pretend like you want people to "go out" downtown.
ON a different note, I just realized this means I won't be able to see the Driller's fireworks from my house. I am now against the move. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I will feed the bear in this regard: the Brady District is a bit shady at night. There are many transient (read: bums) that hang around. The bars have a very mixed group of people. It is close to several "clubs" that have issues from time to time and the area is close to some sketchy parts of town.
I've felt uncomfortable walking to my car from Cain's before. I've never had any problems in the area and don't hesitate to go back, but many people are turned off just by things that are different. The Brady District itself is different and the people it attracts are of varying backgrounds, races, incomes etc.
HOWEVER, the presence of other people is a cure all for that. If a Driller game gets out at 11pm on a Friday you will have the normal bar crowd plus 5,000 people. So the feeling of being alone in the dark in a warehouse district won't exactly apply. Add to that - the way to make the area more secure feeling is to develop it more. Which is what's proposed. Add some new structures, some better lighting (never understood why the area is so poorly lit between bars), and some more people and it's a non-issue.
Bingo.
I've been to major-league ballparks in neighborhoods that make the Brady area's so-called "seediness" look outright tame in comparison. Case in point -- the dirty, dark parking areas just south of the old Busch Stadium.
But I never felt unsafe. You know why? Because you've got thousands of people who are all there for the same thing. There is literally safety in numbers, and the same thing will happen with the new Drillers ballpark.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I will feed the bear in this regard: the Brady District is a bit shady at night. There are many transient (read: bums) that hang around. The bars have a very mixed group of people. It is close to several "clubs" that have issues from time to time and the area is close to some sketchy parts of town.
I've felt uncomfortable walking to my car from Cain's before. I've never had any problems in the area and don't hesitate to go back, but many people are turned off just by things that are different. The Brady District itself is different and the people it attracts are of varying backgrounds, races, incomes etc.
HOWEVER, the presence of other people is a cure all for that. If a Driller game gets out at 11pm on a Friday you will have the normal bar crowd plus 5,000 people. So the feeling of being alone in the dark in a warehouse district won't exactly apply. Add to that - the way to make the area more secure feeling is to develop it more. Which is what's proposed. Add some new structures, some better lighting (never understood why the area is so poorly lit between bars), and some more people and it's a non-issue.
Also, CONNECT the Brady with the Blue Dome. Light the way, throw some signs in there. Pretend like you want people to "go out" downtown.
ON a different note, I just realized this means I won't be able to see the Driller's fireworks from my house. I am now against the move. [;)]
Good plan; leave with the herd.
Just don't leave the stadium solo at the 7th Inning Stretch.
P.S. Why isn't anyone asking why we want to spend $60 million on a new stadium for the team with the WORST record in its AA Baseball League?
The Drillers are terrible.
Lamson sure isn't spending any money on talent.
[:o)]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
...I just realized this means I won't be able to see the Driller's fireworks from my house...
I'll be able to see them from mine. [:X]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
QuoteOriginally posted by cannon_fodder
P.S. Why isn't anyone asking why we want to spend $60 million on a new stadium for the team with the WORST record in its AA Baseball League?
The Drillers are terrible.
Lamson sure isn't spending any money on talent.
[:o)]
Once again, Friendly Bear shows how stupid he is.
Right now, the Tulsa Drillers are tied for first place in the Texas League standings, with Springfield, with a 6-4 record.
http://tulsa.drillers.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=t260&t=l_sta&lid=109&period=h2
You didn't even look, did you, Foolish Bear?
We had our company picknic at Driller Stadium last week. They do a wonderful job hosting corporate events.
When I was a kid the stadium was usually nearly empty on game days. Now they really fill it up!
I think they are doing a good job of promoting themselves!
Go Drillers!
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I will feed the bear in this regard: the Brady District is a bit shady at night. There are many transient (read: bums) that hang around. The bars have a very mixed group of people. It is close to several "clubs" that have issues from time to time and the area is close to some sketchy parts of town.
I've felt uncomfortable walking to my car from Cain's before. I've never had any problems in the area and don't hesitate to go back, but many people are turned off just by things that are different. The Brady District itself is different and the people it attracts are of varying backgrounds, races, incomes etc.
HOWEVER, the presence of other people is a cure all for that. If a Driller game gets out at 11pm on a Friday you will have the normal bar crowd plus 5,000 people. So the feeling of being alone in the dark in a warehouse district won't exactly apply. Add to that - the way to make the area more secure feeling is to develop it more. Which is what's proposed. Add some new structures, some better lighting (never understood why the area is so poorly lit between bars), and some more people and it's a non-issue.
Also, CONNECT the Brady with the Blue Dome. Light the way, throw some signs in there. Pretend like you want people to "go out" downtown.
ON a different note, I just realized this means I won't be able to see the Driller's fireworks from my house. I am now against the move. [;)]
What clubs? There is the Kitchell thing on 2nd that is not in the Brady area. There is the old Curly's/East End thing that looks like it is coming down with the proposed development. There's the gay dance club across from Caz's (Is it still called Majestic?) that is pretty harmless -- a mutual friend of ours went with me to see Two Live Crew there and it was one of the lamer nights of my life. There are several bars that bring in a diverse crowd, but the weirdest person I've seen down there is Bikerfox when he shows up at Soundpony.
The issue are transients and panhandlers. The panhandlers are actually not as bad as you would find in more urban areas like St. Louis, Chicago, Manhattan, San Fransisco, Atlanta, Vancouver, etc. Usually it's the same couple of guys who feed off the fools that pay them -- there is an old black man on a bike that sometimes has a top hat. The worst part of entertainment areas downtown is noted to be the area across from Deadtown -- why one would go to Deadtown is beyond me, so if you just stay away from there, it's not so bad. I'd even argue that Deadtown is kind of a distant territory and not really part of the rest.
A lot of the other really bad things you'll find downtown are purely voluntary, such as the couple of prostitutes between the shelter and Deadtown and the crack dealers in roughly the same area. Generally, these people don't want trouble and they stay out of the higher traffic areas. The worst thing I've had happen to me was a panhandler annoy me while I tried to eat sandwich in the Arnie's parking lot (voluntary act on my part to sit in my car and eat). I told him no, and when he wouldn't leave, I took out my phone and took his picture. He then decided to leave. I realize a lot of folks would be freaked out by something like that, but I haven't seen the man since and in the three or four years since, there are fewer panhandlers. Honestly, just as many non-homeless folks hit me up for a buck at the bars.
Driller Stadium will be packed Thursday and Friday night for their back-to-back fireworks shows.
The whole area including Lowe's, Target and Walgreens will be packed at around 9:30 listening to the game on their car radio. The shows are great and sometimes last for twenty minutes or longer.
I can't wait to see them against the downtown skyline in a couple of years.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown.
I believe you are in the minority on this one. Downtown is doing very well right now. Occupancy rates are up, new restaurants have opened and the after-hours clubs are beginning to get busy.
The arena is going to make everything better downtown. When this ballpark opens, the place to be is going to be downtown.
Why are you so negative?
And why are occupancy rates up? It wouldn't have anything to do with Da Mare's Krystal Kastle being taken off the market, artificially boosting occupancy rates in the private market, now would it? Why are you so full of sh*t? This town needs an enema and so do you. BTW, isn't your "private" business located close to the site where the new ballpark is proposed? How many other "private" businesses have their own public trust (//%22http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Agendas/agendadetail.asp?T=board&Q=METROPOLITAN+ENVIRONMENTAL+TRUST%22) with the city?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Lamson sure isn't spending any money on talent.
When you're a farm team, the big league team signs the talent and decides who will be on your roster. Lamson has no choice in the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
And why are occupancy rates up? It wouldn't have anything to do with Da Mare's Krystal Kastle being taken off the market, artificially boosting occupancy rates in the private market, now would it?
It's possible that the City Hall move would account for a small percentage, but I also know several businesses relocating or starting downtown.
It's so cute when you try. A gold star to you for your effort!
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Lamson sure isn't spending any money on talent.
When you're a farm team, the big league team signs the talent and decides who will be on your roster. Lamson has no choice in the matter.
You're right, but the point is sort of cute. Lamson actually isn't spending a dime on the players. Agree, it's a "so what" -- but kind of funny in the unintentional troll humor sort of way.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Lamson sure isn't spending any money on talent.
When you're a farm team, the big league team signs the talent and decides who will be on your roster. Lamson has no choice in the matter.
You're right, but the point is sort of cute. Lamson actually isn't spending a dime on the players. Agree, it's a "so what" -- but kind of funny in the unintentional troll humor sort of way.
I was refering to the Driller's win/lost record:
They're in the Cellar.......
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown.
I believe you are in the minority on this one. Downtown is doing very well right now. Occupancy rates are up, new restaurants have opened and the after-hours clubs are beginning to get busy.
The arena is going to make everything better downtown. When this ballpark opens, the place to be is going to be downtown.
Why are you so negative?
And why are occupancy rates up? It wouldn't have anything to do with Da Mare's Krystal Kastle being taken off the market, artificially boosting occupancy rates in the private market, now would it? Why are you so full of sh*t? This town needs an enema and so do you. BTW, isn't your "private" business located close to the site where the new ballpark is proposed? How many other "private" businesses have their own public trust (//%22http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Agendas/agendadetail.asp?T=board&Q=METROPOLITAN+ENVIRONMENTAL+TRUST%22) with the city?
You know Double A, It's not like we are in New York where you never see anyone again. Tulsa is such a small town and I am certain all of us will cross paths if we haven't already, but you treat everyone here like they are disposable and of no count at all. You need to talk to everyone here like we know where you park. Like we know where you live. I think by now we all have a good sense of what kind of person you are.
In fact there is this union man that lives behind me who is always displaying his poor upbringing as he carries on about wetbacks ...
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Lamson sure isn't spending any money on talent.
When you're a farm team, the big league team signs the talent and decides who will be on your roster. Lamson has no choice in the matter.
You're right, but the point is sort of cute. Lamson actually isn't spending a dime on the players. Agree, it's a "so what" -- but kind of funny in the unintentional troll humor sort of way.
I was refering to the Driller's win/lost record:
They're in the Cellar.......
Do you just like to get taken down for false statements?
In addition to above stated point that they are currently in first, also note that their record usually means nothing to attendance. People go to drink beer and be outside. I've been to Drillers playoff games and, as they are usually during football season, the place is a tomb. Doesn't matter one bit to their business plan.
Do you actually know anything about anything? Or do you just like making stuff up on the fly? Can we have post like Friendly Bear day where we all get to make up whatever falsehood we want?
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I am sick of good money being thrown after bad downtown.
I believe you are in the minority on this one. Downtown is doing very well right now. Occupancy rates are up, new restaurants have opened and the after-hours clubs are beginning to get busy.
The arena is going to make everything better downtown. When this ballpark opens, the place to be is going to be downtown.
Why are you so negative?
And why are occupancy rates up? It wouldn't have anything to do with Da Mare's Krystal Kastle being taken off the market, artificially boosting occupancy rates in the private market, now would it? Why are you so full of sh*t? This town needs an enema and so do you. BTW, isn't your "private" business located close to the site where the new ballpark is proposed? How many other "private" businesses have their own public trust (//%22http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Agendas/agendadetail.asp?T=board&Q=METROPOLITAN+ENVIRONMENTAL+TRUST%22) with the city?
You know Double A, It's not like we are in New York where you never see anyone again. Tulsa is such a small town and I am certain all of us will cross paths if we haven't already, but you treat everyone here like they are disposable and of no count at all. You need to talk to everyone here like we know where you park. Like we know where you live. I think by now we all have a good sense of what kind of person you are.
In fact there is this union man that lives behind me who is always displaying his poor upbringing as he carries on about wetbacks ...
Bring it on. I won't back down, unlike gutless Tulsa Now elites (//%22http://www.batesline.com/archives/2008/06/down-with-the-gummint.html%22). I will stand my ground and protect my perimeter by any means necessary. You've been warned, proceed at your own peril.
Man, if anyone ever needed a potato in the tailpipe it's you. On the other hand, this is a forum for the free expression of ideas and I guess that covers what you do, but you treat people here so badly. You say you were raised in Tulsa but I sure don't see it. You have no manners at all. I mean, "Bring it on." Give me a break.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Man, if anyone ever needed a potato in the tailpipe it's you. On the other hand, this is a forum for the free expression of ideas and I guess that covers what you do, but you treat people here so badly. You say you were raised in Tulsa but I sure don't see it. You have no manners at all. I mean, "Bring it on." Give me a break.
Ya wanna get froggy? Jump chump. You'll get gigged.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
At 4 cents per square ft, per year, we are not talking a lot of money. A 3,000 sq ft restaurant would only pay $120 a year. The biggest office building in the state, the 1.3 million sq ft BOk tower would only rack up $52,000 a year. It's not a big tax.
Did we need a new stadium? Not until the morons at the Fairgrounds began running off tennants.
A stadium downtown is the kind of development adrenaline that 50 years of DTU assessments hasn't accomplished. There's something about looking at the skyline, seeing the bright lights of a stadium or race track on the horizon and wondering what is going on underneath them.
People complain about Tulsa being behind Oklahoma City and lacking in vision to have our own version of Bricktown. I have a feeling there are those in that crowd who are decrying this ballpark.
The Drillers have played this out perfectly. What's the alternative? The County no longer wants them in their stadium which is still nice by AA standards, if not functionally the same as newer parks.
Jenks made the team an offer. The Drillers let us know about it. What should we do? Let them go down the river or choose it as an opportunity to grow our Downtown and hopefully spur denser infill within the IDL and just outside it.
My personal preference would be for the team owners to fork over much of the construction cost and let them find their own sponsors to shore up any additional funds needed.
Unfortunately, this is the national trend. Taxpayers pay for the ballparks. The Drillers have other options. No, I'm not 100% happy with the funding mechanism, but I'm not so myopic on this issue that I think the Drillers should move to Jenks. This is a development which can have many benefits for everyone moving forward.
Those who own real estate downtown and those who have businesses there will benefit. It's not just about how many rings at the register, it's the type of focal development which will bring up property values for all real estate owners in that area who are willing to reinvest.
Finally, anyone who professes fear of panhandlers and homeless people downtown doesn't really spend that much time around the area and hasn't been hit up that many times, IMO. All you have to do is say "NO".
Worst thing that ever happened to me was a guy making a comment about me being a cheap bastard. BFD. I frequent clubs and restaurants in the Blue Dome or Brady District at a minium of once a week, I get hit up for money more often at the QT on 11th St. than I do leaving McNellie's, Arnie's, or Sound Pony.
Sager was correct, ballparks are good sustainable development and they are a magnet for more development. Many minor and major league ballparks have chosen the warehouse-district/downtown locale and it's spurred new development and re-developemnt most everywhere it's been done.
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
Like I said, I don't think you get out much. You should get out more. Why would you care about the property tax? Do you own property down there?
If it passes, will you leave the town? If it's such a corrupt plutocracy, why stay? No one is keeping you here.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
Like I said, I don't think you get out much. You should get out more. Why would you care about the property tax? Do you own property down there?
If it passes, will you leave the town? If it's such a corrupt plutocracy, why stay? No one is keeping you here.
I stay in the Banana Republic of Tulsa for the same reason I stay on this Forum:
Glutton for Punishment.
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
Defend - the plan
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
Like I said, I don't think you get out much. You should get out more. Why would you care about the property tax? Do you own property down there?
If it passes, will you leave the town? If it's such a corrupt plutocracy, why stay? No one is keeping you here.
I stay in the Banana Republic of Tulsa for the same reason I stay on this Forum:
Glutton for Punishment.
Ah, that was another theory: that you like to be wrong. Because in the alternative to "Talk Crazy like Friendly Bear Day," I was going to propose find "Friendly Bear a New Home Day."
But it looks like the former will work. Here goes an early attempt:
Susan Savage is named "Savage."
She must be "savage."
LaFortune has the word "fortune" in his name.
He's obviously a plutocrat.
Kathy Taylor has the word "kat" in her name.
Meeeooow.
There was once a judge in Tulsa county that ruled in a way that I didn't like. But you see, she didn't write an opinion. And ruled after reading some briefs. But if she had written an opinion, it would have said: "I read the Tulsa World."
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
Like I said, I don't think you get out much. You should get out more. Why would you care about the property tax? Do you own property down there?
If it passes, will you leave the town? If it's such a corrupt plutocracy, why stay? No one is keeping you here.
I stay in the Banana Republic of Tulsa for the same reason I stay on this Forum:
Glutton for Punishment.
Ah, that was another theory: that you like to be wrong. Because in the alternative to "Talk Crazy like Friendly Bear Day," I was going to propose find "Friendly Bear a New Home Day."
But it looks like the former will work. Here goes an early attempt:
Susan Savage is named "Savage."
She must be "savage."
LaFortune has the word "fortune" in his name.
He's obviously a plutocrat.
Kathy Taylor has the word "kat" in her name.
Meeeooow.
There was once a judge in Tulsa county that ruled in a way that I didn't like. But you see, she didn't write an opinion. And ruled after reading some briefs. But if she had written an opinion, it would have said: "I read the Tulsa World."
[:O]
Actually, Mayor Susan Savage was really Susan Hall for many years, B4 reportedly discovering Mr. Hall in a compromising situation with his subordinate.
Then, they got quietly divorced. Buried on the back page of the Lorton's World newspaper.
The NAME Susan Savage sounded much more alliterative for a try for public office.
Da-da, Da-da. Hear the rhythm?
Sus-an Sav-age.
In the English language, TV and radio commentators can punch out a double-double syllable name that really resounds with the listener.
Richard Nixon
Ronald Reagan
Jimmy Carter
Lyndon Johnson
Eisen-Hower
Adolf Hitler.
Kathy Taylor, a.k.a. Mrs. Kitty.
As to Bill LaFortunate, he's from one of the 12 Ruling local Oligarch families.
[:O]
Passing on sleazy rumors is bad enough couldn't you at least get the story straight? You're sounding more and more like a mysogynist creep every day.
I liked Mayor Savage, though I have to admit part of it was her easy to look at countenance. I have since changed my mind. She was not a good administrator and like most executive screw ups got booted upstairs into a cush job. A real life "oily" totally removed from average voters. Her personal life was immaterial.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
No bear.
The Drillers play a split season and have already started the second half. They are in first place.
You must be tired of being wrong so often.
So, what happens to their first half of season record?
Written-off like our loan to Great Plains Airlines?
They were DEAD last in the league a few weeks ago.
Abysmal.
The first half leader plays the second half leader in the playoffs. Given the way the minors work (with so many players moving during the season), you usually want to win the second half because that means you have a better shot in the playoffs (you have the good players late in the year). The Drillers have won a couple of first half pennants in recent years, only to totally collapse in the playoffs.
You know, if you'd just ask the question rather than inserting the random emoticons and tossing in baseless assertions ("abysmal" above), you might be a halfway decent poster. But as it stands, you're sort of like the NIT Picker on the World Picker's blog . . . a constant source of amusement for those who actually pay attention to things and understand nuance.
I'd say finishing in the League's cellar for the First Half is pretty abysmal.
And like I noted above, it doesn't appear to make much of a difference. People go and have fun and they still appear to be making money (that's a unique part of the Drillers experience, people go no matter what). You even essentially admit you don't know what you're talking about (didn't even know there was a first half pennant). Finally, you also concede that it doesn't matter if they have an abysmal first half finish.
C'mon, keep it up, I love messing with trolls.
The Drillers matter little to me.
I rarely attend their games.
However, instituting a new 30-year tax on downtown property owners DOES matter to me.
Like I said, I don't think you get out much. You should get out more. Why would you care about the property tax? Do you own property down there?
If it passes, will you leave the town? If it's such a corrupt plutocracy, why stay? No one is keeping you here.
I stay in the Banana Republic of Tulsa for the same reason I stay on this Forum:
Glutton for Punishment.
Ah, that was another theory: that you like to be wrong. Because in the alternative to "Talk Crazy like Friendly Bear Day," I was going to propose find "Friendly Bear a New Home Day."
But it looks like the former will work. Here goes an early attempt:
Susan Savage is named "Savage."
She must be "savage."
LaFortune has the word "fortune" in his name.
He's obviously a plutocrat.
Kathy Taylor has the word "kat" in her name.
Meeeooow.
There was once a judge in Tulsa county that ruled in a way that I didn't like. But you see, she didn't write an opinion. And ruled after reading some briefs. But if she had written an opinion, it would have said: "I read the Tulsa World."
[:O]
Actually, Mayor Susan Savage was really Susan Hall for many years, B4 reportedly discovering Mr. Hall in a compromising situation with his subordinate.
Then, they got quietly divorced. Buried on the back page of the Lorton's World newspaper.
The NAME Susan Savage sounded much more alliterative for a try for public office.
Da-da, Da-da. Hear the rhythm?
Sus-an Sav-age.
In the English language, TV and radio commentators can punch out a double-double syllable name that really resounds with the listener.
Richard Nixon
Ronald Reagan
Jimmy Carter
Lyndon Johnson
Eisen-Hower
Adolf Hitler.
Kathy Taylor, a.k.a. Mrs. Kitty.
As to Bill LaFortunate, he's from one of the 12 Ruling local Oligarch families.
[:O]
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
And they all advertise in the Tulsa World.
A paper FB complains about.
Yet reads.
In a town he hates.
But won't leave.
He pays taxes, reads the paper, and therefore supports the plutocracy.
FB is part of the conspiracy.
Shhhhhh . . .
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
And they all advertise in the Tulsa World.
A paper FB complains about.
Yet reads.
In a town he hates.
But won't leave.
He pays taxes, reads the paper, and therefore supports the plutocracy.
FB is part of the conspiracy.
Shhhhhh . . .
[:O]
I thought this thread was supposed to be about a proposed new baseball stadium downtown?
You seem to be a bit off-topic....
Why are you trying to make it about a Five-Star poster?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
And they all advertise in the Tulsa World.
A paper FB complains about.
Yet reads.
In a town he hates.
But won't leave.
He pays taxes, reads the paper, and therefore supports the plutocracy.
FB is part of the conspiracy.
Shhhhhh . . .
[:O]
I thought this thread was supposed to be about a proposed new baseball stadium downtown?
You seem to be a bit off-topic....
Why are you trying to make it about a Five-Star poster?
Quantity.
Not the same as quality.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
And they all advertise in the Tulsa World.
A paper FB complains about.
Yet reads.
In a town he hates.
But won't leave.
He pays taxes, reads the paper, and therefore supports the plutocracy.
FB is part of the conspiracy.
Shhhhhh . . .
[:O]
I thought this thread was supposed to be about a proposed new baseball stadium downtown?
You seem to be a bit off-topic....
Why are you trying to make it about a Five-Star poster?
FB makes every thread about nonsense.
Other posters state facts, but FB just makes up crazy things when he doesn't know the answers.
The Drillers must be bad if they aren't in first place the first half of the year.
Downtown must be unsafe if FB doesn't go there,
Judge Wiseman must be bad if she doesn't agree with FB's "jurisprudence."
Tulsa must be a plutocracy if it's an over-simplified tale that makes sense to the bewildered herd that listen to KFAQ.
Why not make up similar nonsense (in a funny way) to mirror the annoyance of FB's baseless rants?
I'm tired of reading the nonsense, aren't you?
If facts don't work, why not do the exact same thing he does?
Sounds to me like FB just got caught and is crying about it.
Kind of like Randi Miller.
[:O]
QuoteOriginally posted by Conan71
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward[/br]
This should be in big block quotes at the top of this website.
TULSANOW FORUM: STOP THE HYPERBOLE AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
QuoteOriginally posted by Conan71
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward[/br]
This should be in big block quotes at the top of this website.
TULSANOW FORUM: STOP THE HYPERBOLE AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
I originated this Topic. It had a first few pages of generally good public discussion.
Then, about Page 3, it degenerated into several posters calling me crazy, liar, etc.
I think if forensically you would review starting on Page 3, you would find it centered on posts from Gold primarily, with some assistance from the usual TulsaMetroChamberPot's Echo Chamber & Camp Meeting posters.
I don't think the citizens will get a direct vote on this TIF financing one way or other.
The downtown property owners are the impacted constituents.
However, as a generally financial conservative voter, I eschew spending money on a new stadium to replace an adequate, DEBT-FREE, existing stadium.
Here's the simple answer to Friendly Bear's question:
We need a new stadium in order to keep the Drillers within the borders of the City of Tulsa. Without a new stadium, the club was moving to Jenks.
If you don't care where they are, you don't care whether they need a new stadium. If you do, you probably think they do.
Once the premise of "need" for a new stadium is established, the more complicated questions of "where" and "how" arise.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
QuoteOriginally posted by Conan71
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward[/br]
This should be in big block quotes at the top of this website.
TULSANOW FORUM: STOP THE HYPERBOLE AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
I originated this Topic. It had a first few pages of generally good public discussion.
Then, about Page 3, it degenerated into several posters calling me crazy, liar, etc.
I think if forensically you would review starting on Page 3, you would find it centered on posts from Gold primarily, with some assistance from the usual TulsaMetroChamberPot's Echo Chamber & Camp Meeting posters.
I don't think the citizens will get a direct vote on this TIF financing one way or other.
The downtown property owners are the impacted constituents.
However, as a generally financial conservative voter, I eschew spending money on a new stadium to replace an adequate, DEBT-FREE, existing stadium.
What?
An actual thought?
No rubbing the nose of people you don't know with silly innuendo and lies?
No conspiracy theories?
Nothing about the logjammin' case?
You won't make it on Batesline with comments like that.
Then again, the voters don't have much to do with TIFs directly.
So maybe there's still hope for you to make up some stuff and imply unsavory behavior where none exists.
Heck, you don't know anything about the Drillers other than that they play at the fairgrouds.
No fun for FB when the tables are turned.
Poor FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Here's the simple answer to Friendly Bear's question:
We need a new stadium in order to keep the Drillers within the borders of the City of Tulsa. Without a new stadium, the club was moving to Jenks.
If you don't care where they are, you don't care whether they need a new stadium. If you do, you probably think they do.
Once the premise of "need" for a new stadium is established, the more complicated questions of "where" and "how" arise.
Sports team owners all over the U.S. have a perfected con job of threatening cities that they will move if someone doesn't build them a fine, new stadium.
The Oklahoma City plutocrats Clay Bennett, Aubrey McClendon, etc. that own the Seattle Supersonics wanted a new, $500 million basketball stadium to stay in Seattle.
The city and state government turned them down.
Now, they want to end their lease two years early, and hustle down to OKC.
As to the Drillers, an actual better location for a proposed Driller Stadium might be between the Jenks Acquarium and the RiverWalk.
It would fit well with those entertainment venues. Maybe even fit in a new Bell's Amusement Park thereabouts someday.
And, as the geographic center of Tulsa has moved farther and farther south, that actually may be a better venue for a stadium.
And, it lets the Jenks taxpayers fund the stadium.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
QuoteOriginally posted by Conan71
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward[/br]
This should be in big block quotes at the top of this website.
TULSANOW FORUM: STOP THE HYPERBOLE AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
That works for me. They can license it from you and I for $1 per page view and we can split it. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
It's nearly supper time hereabouts:
I'm getting that Fried Chicken feeling again.
FB to Oil Capital: Vector to target poultry at the following TCP/IP address:
202.110.105.BR549
Napalm AND Cluster Bombs available.
ROGER, that.
It's a Free-Fire zone. No Friendlies in the area.
Fry-'em.
[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
QuoteOriginally posted by Conan71
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward[/br]
This should be in big block quotes at the top of this website.
TULSANOW FORUM: STOP THE HYPERBOLE AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
I originated this Topic. It had a first few pages of generally good public discussion.
Then, about Page 3, it degenerated into several posters calling me crazy, liar, etc.
I think if forensically you would review starting on Page 3, you would find it centered on posts from Gold primarily, with some assistance from the usual TulsaMetroChamberPot's Echo Chamber & Camp Meeting posters.
I don't think the citizens will get a direct vote on this TIF financing one way or other.
The downtown property owners are the impacted constituents.
However, as a generally financial conservative voter, I eschew spending money on a new stadium to replace an adequate, DEBT-FREE, existing stadium.
What?
An actual thought?
No rubbing the nose of people you don't know with silly innuendo and lies?
No conspiracy theories?
Nothing about the logjammin' case?
You won't make it on Batesline with comments like that.
Then again, the voters don't have much to do with TIFs directly.
So maybe there's still hope for you to make up some stuff and imply unsavory behavior where none exists.
Heck, you don't know anything about the Drillers other than that they play at the fairgrouds.
No fun for FB when the tables are turned.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
regarding Michael Bates June 27th post about the local goobermint bail out of a certain influential bank and their Great Plains Airlines debt repayment.
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2008/06/bok-bailout-other-voices.html (//%22http://%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
Yeah, kudos. For local internet paranoids, that's like playing Carnegie Hall.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
QuoteOriginally posted by Conan71
Stop the hyperbole and let's move forward[/br]
This should be in big block quotes at the top of this website.
TULSANOW FORUM: STOP THE HYPERBOLE AND LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
I originated this Topic. It had a first few pages of generally good public discussion.
Then, about Page 3, it degenerated into several posters calling me crazy, liar, etc.
I think if forensically you would review starting on Page 3, you would find it centered on posts from Gold primarily, with some assistance from the usual TulsaMetroChamberPot's Echo Chamber & Camp Meeting posters.
I don't think the citizens will get a direct vote on this TIF financing one way or other.
The downtown property owners are the impacted constituents.
However, as a generally financial conservative voter, I eschew spending money on a new stadium to replace an adequate, DEBT-FREE, existing stadium.
What?
An actual thought?
No rubbing the nose of people you don't know with silly innuendo and lies?
No conspiracy theories?
Nothing about the logjammin' case?
You won't make it on Batesline with comments like that.
Then again, the voters don't have much to do with TIFs directly.
So maybe there's still hope for you to make up some stuff and imply unsavory behavior where none exists.
Heck, you don't know anything about the Drillers other than that they play at the fairgrouds.
No fun for FB when the tables are turned.
Poor FB.
[:O]
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
regarding Michael Bates June 27th post about the local goobermint bail out of a certain influential bank and their Great Plains Airlines debt repayment.
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2008/06/bok-bailout-other-voices.html (//%22http://%22)
It's very funny when FB doesn't perceive the joke.
The point was that when you make a post with one bit of reason (WAHHHHH, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS STADIUM AND I HAVE STANDARDS, O-KKK), it won't make it on Bates' site.
The rant that went after good folks, like the judges, was nasty, baseless stuff.
You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to law.
All I can figure is you lost a case in front of Judge Wiseman and have it out for her.
Which happens -- it's an adversarial system.
But, rather than attempt to understand the other side, because of your misfortune and lack of desire to make this a better place, you attack:
The World.
F&M Bank.
The Lortons.
LaFortune.
Kathy Taylor.
And the judges.
Basically, anybody with talent that puts it to use.
It's all their fault.
But no one is as wise the mighty Friendly Bear.
Who doesn't know anything about the Drillers (other than that they play at the Fairgrounds).
Or downtown. Because there's nothing there for him.
(Doesn't get out much.)
We got it long ago.
And that's the joke.
It's on you.
O-KKK?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
Yeah, kudos. For local internet paranoids, that's like playing Carnegie Hall.
ZING!!!!!*going to get tinfoil hat*
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
Yeah, kudos. For local internet paranoids, that's like playing Carnegie Hall.
Leader in the clubhouse for Best Post of July 2008. That was so good, everyone else is playing for second place this month. [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
Yeah, kudos. For local internet paranoids, that's like playing Carnegie Hall.
Bates has a degree in computer science from M.I.T.
He spent most of his professional career designing software for aircraft flight simulators, but he has a very wide range of interests, many of which I don't share, so it's mainly the political/public policy side of his website that I follow.
I think he has good judgment, keen intuition about the local body politic, and good analytical abilities.
With those abilities, he would make an excellent addition to one of our city's many board, commissions, or authorities, like TMUA, TAIT, TDA, TIA, TARE, etc.
The local power establishment also hates his guts, of course, so that's about as likely to happen as an August snowfall in Florida.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Let's hope that if a new stadium is actually built, that a long-term contract is put in place to ensure that the team stays around to help pay for the edifice.
That's what Seattle did with the Sonics. They had a long-term contract. And, the owners had to pay, lots to move the team of OKC.
This afternoon, the Sonics agreed to pay the City of Seattle $75 million to break the lease.
"The settlement reached between the city and the Sonics could require the team to pay the city up to $75 million to break its lease at Key Arena and move to Oklahoma City, according to the agreement reached today.
Clay Pigeon Bennett and other owners (oil moneybags Aubrey McClendon, etc.) agreed to pay Seattle $45 million now to break its lease.
Under the agreement, the team will pay another $30 million to Seattle if the Washington Legislature by the end of 2009 approves funding for a new building for a NBA team or for renovation of the Key Arena but Seattle fails to get a team in five years."
See the Daily Oklahoman's link below:
http://newsok.com/article/3265111/ (//%22http://%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Meeeooow.
It's hard to say which is more entertaining, Gold's "Bizarro FB" schtick or Friendly Bear pretending to be peeved about a thread gone haywire, "Then, about Page 3, it degenerated..."
FB has standards? Who knew?
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Let's hope that if a new stadium is actually built, that a long-term contract is put in place to ensure that the team stays around to help pay for the edifice.
That's what Seattle did with the Sonics. They had a long-term contract. And, the owners had to pay, lots to move the team of OKC.
This afternoon, the Sonics agreed to pay the City of Seattle $75 million to break the lease.
"The settlement reached between the city and the Sonics could require the team to pay the city up to $75 million to break its lease at Key Arena and move to Oklahoma City, according to the agreement reached today.
Clay Pigeon Bennett and other owners (oil moneybags Aubrey McClendon, etc.) agreed to pay Seattle $45 million now to break its lease.
Under the agreement, the team will pay another $30 million to Seattle if the Washington Legislature by the end of 2009 approves funding for a new building for a NBA team or for renovation of the Key Arena but Seattle fails to get a team in five years."
See the Daily Oklahoman's link below:
http://newsok.com/article/3265111/ (//%22http://%22)
Minor league baseball and the NBA are apples and oranges.
Tulsa has one of the most established minor league traditions in the country.
The Drillers are considered a great franchise with the oldest stadium in their league.
Yeah, there is some comparison because both are sports franchises and both want(ed) a new play to play ball.
But look at the numbers. Clay Bennett is likely paying more than cost of the new Drillers stadium just to break the lease
NBA tickets average about $50.
That's a lot of beer and hot dogs for a group of four ad a Drillers game (especially when they give out free tickets).
Stick to what you know:
Emoticons.
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Uh, Friendly Bear was actually quoted at length a week ago on www.batesline.com
Yeah, kudos. For local internet paranoids, that's like playing Carnegie Hall.
Bates has a degree in computer science from M.I.T.
He spent most of his professional career designing software for aircraft flight simulators, but he has a very wide range of interests, many of which I don't share, so it's mainly the political/public policy side of his website that I follow.
I think he has good judgment, keen intuition about the local body politic, and good analytical abilities.
With those abilities, he would make an excellent addition to one of our city's many board, commissions, or authorities, like TMUA, TAIT, TDA, TIA, TARE, etc.
The local power establishment also hates his guts, of course, so that's about as likely to happen as an August snowfall in Florida.
[}:)]
I'm sure Bates is a bright guy.
I enjoy some of the history stuff on his site.
Anyone who likes western swing can't be that bad.
But c'mon . . . if he gets your endorsement, that probably hurts.
That's like Paul Tay getting an endorsement from Bikerfox.
[:o)]
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
I'm not pissed about anything, my friend. To the contrary, I'm amused.
We need a new stadium if we want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa. That is a fact. Keeping the Drillers in Tulsa instead of letting them move to the suburbs is important. That is my opinion. Building a new stadium downtown is an economic development opportunity worth pursuing. That is also my opinion.
Feel free to disagree with my opinions, but the issue of whether we need a new stadium is moot. The tenant of the stadium finds it inadequate and will move to a new stadium one way or another. The question is whether we should come up with a solution to keep them in Tulsa or allow them to move to Jenks (or even a different metro area).
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
I'm not pissed about anything, my friend. To the contrary, I'm amused.
We need a new stadium if we want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa. That is a fact. Keeping the Drillers in Tulsa instead of letting them move to the suburbs is important. That is my opinion. Building a new stadium downtown is an economic development opportunity worth pursuing. That is also my opinion.
Feel free to disagree with my opinions, but the issue of whether we need a new stadium is moot. The tenant of the stadium finds it inadequate and will move to a new stadium one way or another. The question is whether we should come up with a solution to keep them in Tulsa or allow them to move to Jenks (or even a different metro area).
You want it, the drillers want it, but there is no need for it. Just be honest about it. There is no need for a new stadium, period.
Anyone given any thought to how this will impact the Greenwood neighborhood? I think we need to leverage the public's desire for a new stadium to somehow maintain and honor Greenwood.
There was some mention of this in a TulsaWorld article, but I would like to see it made central to the project.
I would like to see the stadium carry the Greenwood Name and an area of the stadium designated to display Greenwoood historical items. We might tie some Greenwood neighborhood improvements (other than a hotel) to the stadium package.
If we aren't careful the stadium may swamp and diminish the neighborhood.
The horse was out of the barn a long time ago on this one. Now he's died and everyone keeps beating the poor thing
(http://images.mccoveychronicles.com/images/admin/BeatDeadHorse.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Anyone given any thought to how this will impact the Greenwood neighborhood? I think we need to leverage the public's desire for a new stadium to somehow maintain and honor Greenwood.
There was some mention of this in a TulsaWorld article, but I would like to see it made central to the project.
I would like to see the stadium carry the Greenwood Name and an area of the stadium designated to display Greenwoood historical items. We might tie some Greenwood neighborhood improvements (other than a hotel) to the stadium package.
If we aren't careful the stadium may swamp and diminish the neighborhood.
What's left of Greenwood is just a facade. It could very well engender some goodwill, but I feel like it's all pretty hollow. I'm happy to see it, but this shouldn't be seen as a panacea for North Tulsa or whatever relic that's left constituting "Greenwood."
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Anyone given any thought to how this will impact the Greenwood neighborhood? I think we need to leverage the public's desire for a new stadium to somehow maintain and honor Greenwood.
There was some mention of this in a TulsaWorld article, but I would like to see it made central to the project.
I would like to see the stadium carry the Greenwood Name and an area of the stadium designated to display Greenwoood historical items. We might tie some Greenwood neighborhood improvements (other than a hotel) to the stadium package.
If we aren't careful the stadium may swamp and diminish the neighborhood.
What's left of Greenwood is just a facade. It could very well engender some goodwill, but I feel like it's all pretty hollow. I'm happy to see it, but this shouldn't be seen as a panacea for North Tulsa or whatever relic that's left constituting "Greenwood."
Yep, it's purely symbolic and lacks real substance.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Anyone given any thought to how this will impact the Greenwood neighborhood? I think we need to leverage the public's desire for a new stadium to somehow maintain and honor Greenwood.
There was some mention of this in a TulsaWorld article, but I would like to see it made central to the project.
I would like to see the stadium carry the Greenwood Name and an area of the stadium designated to display Greenwoood historical items. We might tie some Greenwood neighborhood improvements (other than a hotel) to the stadium package.
If we aren't careful the stadium may swamp and diminish the neighborhood.
Well, Jack Henderson loves this proposal. Just sayin'.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
I'm not pissed about anything, my friend. To the contrary, I'm amused.
We need a new stadium if we want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa. That is a fact. Keeping the Drillers in Tulsa instead of letting them move to the suburbs is important. That is my opinion. Building a new stadium downtown is an economic development opportunity worth pursuing. That is also my opinion.
Feel free to disagree with my opinions, but the issue of whether we need a new stadium is moot. The tenant of the stadium finds it inadequate and will move to a new stadium one way or another. The question is whether we should come up with a solution to keep them in Tulsa or allow them to move to Jenks (or even a different metro area).
You want it, the drillers want it, but there is no need for it. Just be honest about it. There is no need for a new stadium, period.
I am being perfectly honest. We
need a new stadium if we
want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa. They will move out of Tulsa otherwise. That is a fact.
If you feel we don't need a new stadium, then you must feel that the Drillers are expendable. I don't share that opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Anyone given any thought to how this will impact the Greenwood neighborhood? I think we need to leverage the public's desire for a new stadium to somehow maintain and honor Greenwood.
There was some mention of this in a TulsaWorld article, but I would like to see it made central to the project.
I would like to see the stadium carry the Greenwood Name and an area of the stadium designated to display Greenwoood historical items. We might tie some Greenwood neighborhood improvements (other than a hotel) to the stadium package.
If we aren't careful the stadium may swamp and diminish the neighborhood.
Well, Jack Henderson loves this proposal. Just sayin'.
True. I don't know about you, but I don't give a rat's patootie what Jack Henderson thinks.
Actually, that's a waste of a rat's patootie . . .
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Passing on sleazy rumors is bad enough couldn't you at least get the story straight? You're sounding more and more like a mysogynist creep every day.
I liked Mayor Savage, though I have to admit part of it was her easy to look at countenance. I have since changed my mind. She was not a good administrator and like most executive screw ups got booted upstairs into a cush job. A real life "oily" totally removed from average voters. Her personal life was immaterial.
I'm so hurt.
Here's the Ying of Mr. Hall's Yang:
Ms. Hall was allegedly involved with a certain public official known privately as Mr. Hard, although Mr. Hall was unawares.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
And they all advertise in the Tulsa World.
A paper FB complains about.
Yet reads.
In a town he hates.
But won't leave.
He pays taxes, reads the paper, and therefore supports the plutocracy.
FB is part of the conspiracy.
Shhhhhh . . .
[:O]
Those that haven't been drinking the TulsaMetroChamberPots Kool-Aid read the Lorton's World not for what IS printed, but rather for what's left UNSAID in their public policy coverage.
[?]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Passing on sleazy rumors is bad enough couldn't you at least get the story straight? You're sounding more and more like a mysogynist creep every day.
I liked Mayor Savage, though I have to admit part of it was her easy to look at countenance. I have since changed my mind. She was not a good administrator and like most executive screw ups got booted upstairs into a cush job. A real life "oily" totally removed from average voters. Her personal life was immaterial.
I'm so hurt.
Here's the Ying of Mr. Hall's Yang:
Ms. Hall was allegedly involved with a certain public official known privately as Mr. Hard, although Mr. Hall was unawares.
[:O]
Stay classy, FB.
Was that an emoticon of you thinking of Mr. Hard?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
You know what else is buried in the back pages of the World?
The weather.
It's all a conspiracy with the Plutocrats and Oral Roberts, who controls the weather.
And the World.
And F&M Bank.
And the Tulsa Talons.
And Ron's.
And QT.
All who advertise in the Tulsa World.
[:O]
... woah, man. You are really trippin' me out here. [;)]
You should see my impression of the TW comments section:
Bob: No arena tax!!!
Sally: We already have an arena tax.
Bob: AHHH!!!!!
Joe Allen Doty: Blah blah Blah
Here is my impression of Chris Medlock:
"Idiot!!!!!"
Partial credit awarded:
The Lorton's World and the F&M Bank are related....
The Lorton's are reportedly a principal shareholder of the bank.
The battle over their branch at 71st and Harvard didn't win them any new newspaper subscriptions or new bank accounts from the proximal neighhood associations, principally Guier Woods.
And they all advertise in the Tulsa World.
A paper FB complains about.
Yet reads.
In a town he hates.
But won't leave.
He pays taxes, reads the paper, and therefore supports the plutocracy.
FB is part of the conspiracy.
Shhhhhh . . .
[:O]
Those that haven't been drinking the TulsaMetroChamberPots Kool-Aid read the Lorton's World not for what IS printed, but rather for what's left UNSAID in their public policy coverage.
[?]
I figured you read it for the horoscopes and Jason Ashley Wright.
If it's so bad, don't read it.
I think Fox News is an awful news source. Therefore, I don't ever watch it. It can't offend me then.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
You forgot to mention Double A puffing up on page 3 like he was going to start something. This thread started on the topic of baseball and ended up a circus.
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
I'm not pissed about anything, my friend. To the contrary, I'm amused.
We need a new stadium if we want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa. That is a fact. Keeping the Drillers in Tulsa instead of letting them move to the suburbs is important. That is my opinion. Building a new stadium downtown is an economic development opportunity worth pursuing. That is also my opinion.
Feel free to disagree with my opinions, but the issue of whether we need a new stadium is moot. The tenant of the stadium finds it inadequate and will move to a new stadium one way or another. The question is whether we should come up with a solution to keep them in Tulsa or allow them to move to Jenks (or even a different metro area).
You want it, the drillers want it, but there is no need for it. Just be honest about it. There is no need for a new stadium, period.
I am being perfectly honest. We need a new stadium if we want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa. They will move out of Tulsa otherwise. That is a fact.
If you feel we don't need a new stadium, then you must feel that the Drillers are expendable. I don't share that opinion.
You want a new stadium, because you want to keep the Drillers in Tulsa, not because we need one. Now, get back to work, since the taxpayers are paying your salary.
FINIS
rofl @ Waterboy. That's what I've been saying since page 4!
Dear doubleA:
When you don't know what you are talking about, it is hard to know when to quit.
That time is now.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Dear doubleA:
When you don't know what you are talking about, it is hard to know when to quit.
That time is now.
Maybe when you shysters drop the B.S. and stop trying to con the public with lies about needing a new stadium.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Dear doubleA:
When you don't know what you are talking about, it is hard to know when to quit.
That time is now.
Maybe when you shysters drop the B.S. and stop trying to con the public with lies about needing a new stadium.
I missed your little parting shot because I was on vacation last week.
Bottom line: I am expressing my opinion here, same as you. I've also advertised it as such. You even summed up my opinion -- I believe keeping the Drillers in Tulsa (instead of the burbs) is important, and since I want to keep them here, I am in favor of a new stadium. Since you have a different opinion, let's agree to disagree like adults.
I do have a question for you -- exactly how do you feel the public is being "conned" in this matter? The public is not being asked to foot the bill for the stadium, just a finite number of downtown property owners.
We dont "need" a new baseball stadium. But it will certainly be better for Tulsa if we do get a new stadium downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
Does Dallas NEED the Dallas Cowboys?
Do we NEED the Oklahoma Sooners?
Does New York City NEED the New York Philharmonic or the Metropolitan Opera? Or the Yankees? Or the Giants?
Does Milwaukee truly NEED the Brewers or the Bucks?
Does Durham, North Carolina NEED the Bulls?
You know, if Tulsa only gets what Double A thinks Tulsa "needs," this city would truly suck... [:o)]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
Does Dallas NEED the Dallas Cowboys?
Do we NEED the Oklahoma Sooners?
Does New York City NEED the New York Philharmonic or the Metropolitan Opera? Or the Yankees? Or the Giants?
Does Milwaukee truly NEED the Brewers or the Bucks?
Does Durham, North Carolina NEED the Bulls?
You know, if Tulsa only gets what Double A thinks Tulsa "needs," this city would truly suck... [:o)]
Kind of mixing metaphors there, RufNex.
The OU Sooners are housed at a taxpayer, publically-supported 4-year university.
The NY Philharmonic is housed in a publically supported venue, but they are a For-Profit corporation.
Any agreement to build a new Drillers stadium needs to be tied to a synchronized long-term lease with the ball team owner.
And, I doubt Mr. Lamson would want to tie the team down to a 30-year lease.
Therefore, the financing scheme at 30-years, and the revenue stream from the team will probably be mismatched.
Worse case: Lamson moves the Drillers AFTER his lease commitment is over, and we're left with an empty stadium.
Final note: There is NOTHING wrong with the current Driller Stadium.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.
But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.
Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.
I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.
It will definitely be COOL as a open-air stadium from about November through February here in frigid winter clime N.E. Oklahoma.
Bring a blanket with your heavy coat.
It will be used approximately 66 times per year for Drillers home games during the temperate months.
If reconfigured, it can be used for a soccer game. Probably excess seating for a soccer game.
It probably lacks the accoustics for enjoyable open-air concerts, but we already have a new $140 million arena (for $200 million)for those desirous of an Arena style concert.
We already have a perfectly adequate PAID FOR stadium.
When it starts to fall down due to neglect of maintenance by our Tulsa County commissioners, they we can consider replacing it.
That's how the County operates. Defer maintenance until a building functionally obsolesces, or falls into ruin.
That's how the current Driller stadium was constructed; part of the Oilers stadium literally collapsed.
[:O]
Got to love the Friendly Bear.
When he doesn't know a fact, he makes it up.
[:O]
Baseball is not played in the winter. In fact, many baseball stadiums sit empty the entire winter.
[:O]
Making an issue out of the baseball stadium only being used when its pleasant outside is like attacking Tuls for having public parks that are primarily used in warmer months or attacking folks who have a Christmas tree, but only bring it out for a month out of the year.
The new stadium would also hold other events, such as the annual Bedlam games always played in Tulsa.
Drillers Stadium is hardly known for its acoustics, but it has hosted shows by the likes of Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, and Garth Brooks.
You remember Garth Brooks, right? The guy who wouldn't play the BOK? He's played at Drillers stadium. Which doesn't have good acoustics.
Why? Because he could fit the right sized group in and wanted to be outside.
Outside venues usually don't have great acoustics. Why? Because they are outside.
But why would you care about the acoustics? You won't go to the show. You don't know much about what you spout off about, anywho.
If a concert or game happens without Friendly Bear does it make a sound? Yes. They have for many years.
There's a great big world out there passing you by, man.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Nope, just finish it.
You're just pissed that none of your rambling changes the fact that we do not NEED a new ballpark.
Does Dallas NEED the Dallas Cowboys?
Do we NEED the Oklahoma Sooners?
Does New York City NEED the New York Philharmonic or the Metropolitan Opera? Or the Yankees? Or the Giants?
Does Milwaukee truly NEED the Brewers or the Bucks?
Does Durham, North Carolina NEED the Bulls?
You know, if Tulsa only gets what Double A thinks Tulsa "needs," this city would truly suck... [:o)]
Final note: There is NOTHING wrong with the current Driller Stadium.
On page 1 of this thread, you hint that something is wrong with the structure of Driller Stadium, referencing the same conditions that lead to the collapse of Oiler Park. Stick to one story.
[:O]
Frankly, it's the folks like Friendly Bear who used to live in OKC who either died off or moved to Harrah or Yukon that made way for OKC's publicly funded renaissance... which included a downtown ballpark among many other perks...
You know FB, taxes are REALLY LOW in West Virginia... maybe that's where you belong..... hint, hint....
[:o)]
[edit: didn't mean to imply FB ever lived in OKC... it's just that the feelings of folks I know in OKC is that the rabid anti-any-tax naysayers in Okie City finally either died off or moved away... that's their story as to why MAPS finally took off the city started investing in itself-- moving a ballpark from the fairgrounds to downtown... sound familiar?]
Why Tulsa needs a new bb stadium? Because GROWN men need someplace to play with their BALLS. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Frankly, it's the folks like Friendly Bear who used to live in OKC who either died off or moved to Harrah or Yukon that made way for OKC's publicly funded renaissance... which included a downtown ballpark among many other perks...
You know FB, taxes are REALLY LOW in West Virginia... maybe that's where you belong..... hint, hint....
[:o)]
[edit: didn't mean to imply FB ever lived in OKC... it's just that the feelings of folks I know in OKC is that the rabid anti-any-tax naysayers in Okie City finally either died off or moved away... that's their story as to why MAPS finally took off the city started investing in itself-- moving a ballpark from the fairgrounds to downtown... sound familiar?]
The Tax Vampires, be they in OKC or Tulsa, never want to let go of a Tax once it's started.
The MAPS plan from the 1990's built on the growing popularity of Bricktown.
Followed by "MAPS for Kids", to keep the concrete flowing with a SALES tax to support public schools. Not a Property Tax.
A Sales Tax.
That has now mutated into "MAPS for MILLIONAIRES" Tax Monster, continuing the MAPS sales tax to benefit the richest men in Oklahoma with $100 million in corporate welfare for the Ford Center and a $20 million NBA practice facility.
Spending $100 million to "remodel" a six year old Ford Center that only cost $90 million when new is the Height of Folly.
Coupled with another $60 million over fifteen years to Clay "Pigeon" Bennett, Aubrey McClendon and Co. in Corporate Welfare for the "Quality Jobs Program".
Ain't Capitalism Great?
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Coupled with another $60 million over fifteen years to Clay "Pigeon" Bennett, Aubrey McClendon and Co. in Corporate Welfare for the "Quality Jobs Program".
Ain't Capitalism Great?
[:O]
And, your point is?
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.
But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.
Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.
I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.
It will definitely be COOL as a open-air stadium from about November through February here in frigid winter clime N.E. Oklahoma.
Bring a blanket with your heavy coat.
It will be used approximately 66 times per year for Drillers home games during the temperate months.
If reconfigured, it can be used for a soccer game. Probably excess seating for a soccer game.
It probably lacks the accoustics for enjoyable open-air concerts, but we already have a new $140 million arena (for $200 million)for those desirous of an Arena style concert.
We already have a perfectly adequate PAID FOR stadium.
When it starts to fall down due to neglect of maintenance by our Tulsa County commissioners, they we can consider replacing it.
That's how the County operates. Defer maintenance until a building functionally obsolesces, or falls into ruin.
That's how the current Driller stadium was constructed; part of the Oilers stadium literally collapsed.
[:O]
Got to love the Friendly Bear.
When he doesn't know a fact, he makes it up.
[:O]
Baseball is not played in the winter. In fact, many baseball stadiums sit empty the entire winter.
[:O]
Making an issue out of the baseball stadium only being used when its pleasant outside is like attacking Tuls for having public parks that are primarily used in warmer months or attacking folks who have a Christmas tree, but only bring it out for a month out of the year.
The new stadium would also hold other events, such as the annual Bedlam games always played in Tulsa.
Drillers Stadium is hardly known for its acoustics, but it has hosted shows by the likes of Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, and Garth Brooks.
You remember Garth Brooks, right? The guy who wouldn't play the BOK? He's played at Drillers stadium. Which doesn't have good acoustics.
Why? Because he could fit the right sized group in and wanted to be outside.
Outside venues usually don't have great acoustics. Why? Because they are outside.
But why would you care about the acoustics? You won't go to the show. You don't know much about what you spout off about, anywho.
If a concert or game happens without Friendly Bear does it make a sound? Yes. They have for many years.
There's a great big world out there passing you by, man.
[:O]
You bought a ticket to hear a C/W Singer play in a venue that has poor acoustics?
And I'm the one who's dumb?
quote:
Originally posted by tulsarufflebutt
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Coupled with another $60 million over fifteen years to Clay "Pigeon" Bennett, Aubrey McClendon and Co. in Corporate Welfare for the "Quality Jobs Program".
Ain't Capitalism Great?
[:O]
And, your point is?
The point:
Pimping politicians and their greedy, grasping plutocrat patrons will always invent endless ways to increase our tax burden for fabricated emergencies, crisis, "economic development", and other "feel-good" emotion-laden appeals for ever more tax dollars.
Therefore, we should be very CAREFUL before we fall for the Pimp's Pitch. Otherwise, we might catch a very debilitating illness from the transaction:
TOO MUCH TAX BURDEN.
A new downtown stadium is UNNECESSARY. The current Driller stadium is adequate.
Even if the Drillers move to Jenks, it will not cost the City of Tulsa much in lost current revenue, since they would be moving off of Tulsa County Property, not city property.
Jenks is NOT The center of geographic gravity for the Tulsa MSA. The distinction belongs to Tulsa, as it is centrally located in relation to the surrounding counties.
Lamson knows that. He's just playing along to see if he can get something for free.
Let's NOT fall for it.
But I don't want Tulsa to be "adequate"... that's the problem.
The stadium's close to 30 years old. It's reasonably nice. It's not falling apart... shhhh... RM's speaking...
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
But I don't want Tulsa to be "adequate"... that's the problem.
The stadium's close to 30 years old. It's reasonably nice. It's not falling apart... shhhh... RM's speaking...
If that's your wish, then you've received it in Spades.
Tulsa has bled good jobs starting with the dot com and telecom bust of the 2000-2001 timeframe, followed by job losses post-911 at our local aviation industries.
Our highways, roads and residential streets are in ruins;
Only four of our 22 city Public pools have city operating funds to open;
We're mothballing parts of our fabulous golf courses because of a lack of operating funds;
Our new debt service from operating funds will be $3.5 million annually for Mayor Taylor's new city hall palace;
The BOK Arena will be a new operating fund money-losing Money Pit;
Mayor Taylor railroaded the city council into paying BOK $7.1 million that the City of Tulsa did not legally owe until SHE unilaterally agreed to add the City of Tulsa as a defendant.
Every downtown city owned property will collectively pay $100,000's annually to fund the Stadium BID;
It is announced that The Rooney Family is awarded the new Driller stadium construction contract in a NON-COMPETITIVE BID a mere 12 hours after the city council approves the BID.
Is there any point in continuing a discussion about Tulsa's "adequacy"?
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
[:O]
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
Funny, OKC seems to be doing very well and one of the most frequent comments they make about what is holding Tulsa back is our "rabid no tax" crowd. As low as our over all tax burden is, lower than any other state in the union, if the logic followed that lower taxes meant blue skies and prosperity,,, Oklahoma should be paradise with the whole world flocking here.
Just as you can over tax yourself, you can under tax yourself.
You can argue about how the tax money is used or raised here, but I can't see that you can really argue that we are taxed too much. Just sounds so absurd when we know the stats on where we rank.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
OMG... you're worse than an Oliver Stone movie... geez FB, where's your tinfoil hat?!? If you consider Tulsa to be a "Banana Republic" what does that make you? A banana republican?!?
Tulsa bled jobs b/c the Enron scandal affected Williams Companies due to guilt by association-- so, bye-bye WilTel.... and layoff hell for employees at Worldcom, brought to you via Chicago's Arthur Andersen, which changed it's name (to
"Accenture") quicker than one of Kitchell's nightclubs after a shooting...
FB-
Our highways, roads and residential streets are in ruins;No, they aren't. Period. I've driven them-- everyday-- in different parts of Tulsa... "in ruins" implies you can't drive more than a few feet without damaging your car... more tinfoil-hat hyperbole from you.
This happens every Spring, when the citizens complain about potholes which have more to do with the weather in Oklahoma than the money spent on roads. An urban planner from OKC told me the dirty details... someone who happens to have more experience in this area than any of the nattering nabobs of negativism on this forum ever imagined... I've heard this crap since I was a kid in the seventies; back when KOTV used to have a segment called "chughole of the week"... to attempt to paralyze local govt based on the "fix our streets" agenda is just political cover for the usual naysayer suspects who've held Tulsa back for decades now.
FB-
Only four of our 22 city Public pools have city operating funds to open;More mincing of words from FB... the number of public pools open is ten, not four... and nine are free... 66,000 swimmers at $1 each would raise an extra $66,000... which would still be a lot cheaper than dropping off the kids at a movie... just sayin'... http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080523_11_A13_spancl633760
FB-
We're mothballing parts of our fabulous golf courses because of a lack of operating funds;Do you golf, FB?..... or would you support a new tax to fund operating deficits to keep all the courses open?.... or are you just blowing smoke again?
Because I'm convinced that if the city chose to try to raise taxes to fund this, you'd ironically be telling us dupes how bad the local ballpark is... how Grover Nordquist of you.
FB--
Our new debt service from operating funds will be $3.5 million annually for Mayor Taylor's new city hall palace;God forbid you actually tell the WHOLE STORY... nope, just characterize Mayor Taylor as "Queen Kathy" who simply needs a new "palace" rather than examine a measure that could save money as a longterm investment-- thank you, Jester FB.
FB--
The BOK Arena will be a new operating fund money-losing Money Pit;The arena will host lotsa concerts the city of Tulsa wouldn't get otherwise... I'm not crazy about the glut of new arenas nationwide (point of diminishing returns?) that seems to be the answer to every city's problems, but TULSANS were desperate to vote FOR investment in new facilities, and this will be a big improvement over the old Assembly Center...
FB--
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, etc, etc, etc... throw every piece of crap you can think of at every possible investment of public funds hoping some of that XXXX will stick to the wall...Tulsa is a city that needs to invest in itself from time to time... public money could be spent on the river, parks, TIFs that will contribute development that benefits the general public... it doesn't mean I will support every new
Tulsa Project that comes along every few years, but I will certainly support some reasonable projects that could help "connect" downtown.... like the new ball park that will likely
connect the Brady District and the mostly empty Greenwood area to the Blue Dome and East Village areas...
AND SOMEDAY I'D LIKE TO BOIL DOWN ALL YOU GROVER NORDQUIST CLONES INTO A SMALL ENOUGH SIZE TO STRANGLE IN MY BATH TUB... [}:)]
Agreed Artist. We are not over taxed per se. But to justify more taxes one has to believe they will be put to a beneficial use.
I voted for 2025, I voted for the River, and I'll vote for other taxes I see as beneficial. But you have to admit we give the anti-tax crowd plenty of talking points. The BOk Center went from $140mil to $180mil. The dams were/were not included in the funding. Bell's could not pay rent so they're out, big Splash doesn't pay rent but can stay.
Just as "low taxes" doesn't equate to prosperity and a population can be over taxed, it is also possible to have taxes in the middle of the road and simply not utilize them well. What I'm saying, is even taxes levied for a good purpose are not always used effectively and thus only serve as a drain.
My support of taxes is inverse to the incompetence of the government. Thus, I have almost no confidence at the Federal Level, somewhat more at the State, and the most confidence at the Local Level were dedicated citizens can at least try to keep track of the money. Though, that's not saying a lot.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Agreed Artist. We are not over taxed per se. But to justify more taxes one has to believe they will be put to a beneficial use.
I voted for 2025, I voted for the River, and I'll vote for other taxes I see as beneficial. But you have to admit we give the anti-tax crowd plenty of talking points. The BOk Center went from $140mil to $180mil. The dams were/were not included in the funding. Bell's could not pay rent so they're out, big Splash doesn't pay rent but can stay.
Just as "low taxes" doesn't equate to prosperity and a population can be over taxed, it is also possible to have taxes in the middle of the road and simply not utilize them well. What I'm saying, is even taxes levied for a good purpose are not always used effectively and thus only serve as a drain.
My support of taxes is inverse to the incompetence of the government. Thus, I have almost no confidence at the Federal Level, somewhat more at the State, and the most confidence at the Local Level were dedicated citizens can at least try to keep track of the money. Though, that's not saying a lot.
This is an excellent point that local conservatives tend to lose track of. It is possible to be fiscally conservative but still support taxation at the local level. It's called federalism--local control of government spending. The way I see it, local taxation for local projects becomes a question of control and efficiency, rather than a question of politics. National conservatism doesn't apply very well at the municipal level.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
OMG... you're worse than an Oliver Stone movie... geez FB, where's your tinfoil hat?!? If you consider Tulsa to be a "Banana Republic" what does that make you? A banana republican?!?
Tulsa bled jobs b/c the Enron scandal affected Williams Companies due to guilt by association-- so, bye-bye WilTel.... and layoff hell for employees at Worldcom, brought to you via Chicago's Arthur Andersen, which changed it's name (to "Accenture") quicker than one of Kitchell's nightclubs after a shooting...
FB- Our highways, roads and residential streets are in ruins;
No, they aren't. Period. I've driven them-- everyday-- in different parts of Tulsa... "in ruins" implies you can't drive more than a few feet without damaging your car... more tinfoil-hat hyperbole from you.
This happens every Spring, when the citizens complain about potholes which have more to do with the weather in Oklahoma than the money spent on roads. An urban planner from OKC told me the dirty details... someone who happens to have more experience in this area than any of the nattering nabobs of negativism on this forum ever imagined... I've heard this crap since I was a kid in the seventies; back when KOTV used to have a segment called "chughole of the week"... to attempt to paralyze local govt based on the "fix our streets" agenda is just political cover for the usual naysayer suspects who've held Tulsa back for decades now.
FB- Only four of our 22 city Public pools have city operating funds to open;
More mincing of words from FB... the number of public pools open is ten, not four... and nine are free... 66,000 swimmers at $1 each would raise an extra $66,000... which would still be a lot cheaper than dropping off the kids at a movie... just sayin'... http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080523_11_A13_spancl633760
FB- We're mothballing parts of our fabulous golf courses because of a lack of operating funds;
Do you golf, FB?..... or would you support a new tax to fund operating deficits to keep all the courses open?.... or are you just blowing smoke again?
Because I'm convinced that if the city chose to try to raise taxes to fund this, you'd ironically be telling us dupes how bad the local ballpark is... how Grover Nordquist of you.
FB-- Our new debt service from operating funds will be $3.5 million annually for Mayor Taylor's new city hall palace;
God forbid you actually tell the WHOLE STORY... nope, just characterize Mayor Taylor as "Queen Kathy" who simply needs a new "palace" rather than examine a measure that could save money as a longterm investment-- thank you, Jester FB.
FB-- The BOK Arena will be a new operating fund money-losing Money Pit;
The arena will host lotsa concerts the city of Tulsa wouldn't get otherwise... I'm not crazy about the glut of new arenas nationwide (point of diminishing returns?) that seems to be the answer to every city's problems, but TULSANS were desperate to vote FOR investment in new facilities, and this will be a big improvement over the old Assembly Center...
FB-- BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, etc, etc, etc... throw every piece of crap you can think of at every possible investment of public funds hoping some of that XXXX will stick to the wall...
Tulsa is a city that needs to invest in itself from time to time... public money could be spent on the river, parks, TIFs that will contribute development that benefits the general public... it doesn't mean I will support every new Tulsa Project that comes along every few years, but I will certainly support some reasonable projects that could help "connect" downtown.... like the new ball park that will likely connect the Brady District and the mostly empty Greenwood area to the Blue Dome and East Village areas...
AND SOMEDAY I'D LIKE TO BOIL DOWN ALL YOU GROVER NORDQUIST CLONES INTO A SMALL ENOUGH SIZE TO STRANGLE IN MY BATH TUB... [}:)]
Oh, regarding the Energy Pirates Williams and Oneoak, they were much much more bad boys than merely "Guilt by Association".
How about pleading guilty to criminal offenses, and paying $100,000,000's of civil fines?
Ever heard of the "Get Shorty" Energy Buccaneer strategy, pattented by Enron?
Well, Williams and Oneoak had their versions, too.
FYI, Mr. Name Caller, the City operating budget is paying for only FOUR of 22 City of Tulsa public pools to be open this summer.
Same as last summer.
Four.
PRIVATE sponsors are funding another six.
What the city of Tulsa will pay for OUR share of the new downtown BID 6.5 cent per square foot real estate Stadium Tax tax would pay to open HOW MANY city pools?
Hmmmmmh?
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
QuoteOriginally posted by Friendly Bear
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
FYI, Mr. Name Caller, the City operating budget is paying for only FOUR of 22 City of Tulsa public pools to be open this summer.
Same as last summer.
Four.
PRIVATE sponsors are funding another six.
[:O]
4 by the city, 6 by private funds. That equals 10. What about the remaining 12? Just asking.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
QuoteOriginally posted by Friendly Bear
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!
FYI, Mr. Name Caller, the City operating budget is paying for only FOUR of 22 City of Tulsa public pools to be open this summer.
Same as last summer.
Four.
PRIVATE sponsors are funding another six.
[:O]
4 by the city, 6 by private funds. That equals 10. What about the remaining 12? Just asking.
The remaining 12 City of Tulsa public pools are:
CLOSED.
Until Further Notice.
Congratulations Mayor Taylor.
You succeeded in taxing all Tulsan (and all County residents) without a public vote, while at the same time driving many businessess out of downtown, all after spending a half billion or so to make it the 'place to be'.
Not sure I like these 'work' or 'catasrophic failure' plans.
What happens if it doesn't work?
IAC, I've had enough of 30-40 year projects. Let's start thinking 2-3 years out and see if we can 'make life better'.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
Congratulations Mayor Taylor.
You succeeded in taxing all Tulsan (and all County residents) without a public vote, while at the same time driving many businessess out of downtown, all after spending a half billion or so to make it the 'place to be'.
Not sure I like these 'work' or 'catasrophic failure' plans.
What happens if it doesn't work?
IAC, I've had enough of 30-40 year projects. Let's start thinking 2-3 years out and see if we can 'make life better'.
Make careful note of the very few details we've been told about the Title 60 Public Trust that will govern the Stadium construction and operations.
The Lorton's World told us this week:
1. The proposed $60 million ballpark will be owned by a public trust in which five of the seven board members will be donors who gave more than $2 million to the project.
2. The other two members will be the mayor and a downtown property owner appointed by the mayor and approved by the City Council.
3. The mayor, however, may remove the property owner with a successor to be approved by council.
4. The donors on the Trust Board will have TWELVE YEAR terms. Donors will NOMINATE successors, who will be subject to council approval.
5. The trust will be formed under state law (Meaning that the Public Trust will ESCHEW competitive bidding requirements contained in State Law) and be subject to Oklahoma Open Meeting laws (meaning all REAL decisions will be made in advance of the public meeting).
6. Manhattan Construction Co. (Rooney Oligarch Family) is a $1 million donor, and has been picked through a "bidding" process to build the stadium.
The TIMING of this new downtown construction project is a mighty curious coincidence. Namely, the SAME MONTH that Manhattan's revenue from the construction of the BOK Arena ENDS, Manhattan can move down the street to the 'hood and start work on the new Driller's Stadium.
How HANDY!
Makes you wonder if the ONLY thing really behind the new stadium is to replace the lost cash flow for Rooney Family?
This is NOT being awarded on a COMPETITIVE Bidding process.
It was cited as a "bidding" process.
What this structure achieves is several fold:
With 12 year terms, which is extraordinarily LONG compared to other Title 60 Public Trusts, the next Mayor cannot control the appointments to the Board.
This 12 year term will also just coincidentally coincide with Governor Kathy Taylor's retirement after serving her second term as Oklahoma Governor.
And, it creates a very opaque structure for this new TAX HONEY POT, for the benefit of the Local Ruling Oligarchy.
For the next THIRTY years.......
HOW HANDY!!
Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa.
[:O]
More FB spam. [:(!]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
More FB spam. [:(!]
Feel FREE to show me where I'm wrong.......
[:O]
I have ... I did ... done it before and can do it again... but you insist on cobbling together a list of grievances so long and obtuse that it is impossible to address many of them... because you'll simply come up with more... from your perpetual fountain of mularkey...
You have the baskin-robbins version of arguing against public money being spent on anything in Tulsa.... 31 flavors, all tainted with different flavors of b.s....
This is like your arguments against the tax that would have GREATLY BENEFITTED the river. Funny how OKC can get these things done... KC, Chicago, Indy, Ft. Worth, etc, etc, etc... can get these things done.
You are so typical of the old mindset and middle-aged farts I've met in this city since moving back... the people who are... HOLDING TULSA BACK.
THEY ARE. YOU ARE. GEE, I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG TULSANS TO LEAVE, NEVER COME BACK, AND REFUSE TO GIVE THEIR HOMETOWN A GOOD REFERENCE...
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I have ... I did ... done it before and can do it again... but you insist on cobbling together a list of grievances so long and obtuse that it is impossible to address many of them... because you'll simply come up with more... from your perpetual fountain of mularkey...
You have the baskin-robbins version of arguing against public money being spent on anything in Tulsa.... 31 flavors, all tainted with different flavors of b.s....
This is like your arguments against the tax that would have GREATLY BENEFITTED the river. Funny how OKC can get these things done... KC, Chicago, Indy, Ft. Worth, etc, etc, etc... can get these things done.
You are so typical of the old mindset and middle-aged farts I've met in this city since moving back... the people who are... HOLDING TULSA BACK.
THEY ARE. YOU ARE. GEE, I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG TULSANS TO LEAVE, NEVER COME BACK, AND REFUSE TO GIVE THEIR HOMETOWN A GOOD REFERENCE...
If you think that more taxes are needed for critical infrastructure development and economic development, especially for River Development, feel FREE to voluntarily contribute extra of your hard earned dollars to the following:
The Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Commissioner Randi Miller
Tulsa County Courthouse
500 South Denver
Tulsa OK 74103
Check with your Tax Advisor to determine if your contribution is Tax Deductible.
[:I]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.
Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.
Cases in Point:
1. Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.
Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.
For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.
Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.
2. Our 1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.
Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone. A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.
3. In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.
And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I have ... I did ... done it before and can do it again... but you insist on cobbling together a list of grievances so long and obtuse that it is impossible to address many of them... because you'll simply come up with more... from your perpetual fountain of mularkey...
You have the baskin-robbins version of arguing against public money being spent on anything in Tulsa.... 31 flavors, all tainted with different flavors of b.s....
This is like your arguments against the tax that would have GREATLY BENEFITTED the river. Funny how OKC can get these things done... KC, Chicago, Indy, Ft. Worth, etc, etc, etc... can get these things done.
You are so typical of the old mindset and middle-aged farts I've met in this city since moving back... the people who are... HOLDING TULSA BACK.
THEY ARE. YOU ARE. GEE, I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG TULSANS TO LEAVE, NEVER COME BACK, AND REFUSE TO GIVE THEIR HOMETOWN A GOOD REFERENCE...
So you really blame the minority with holding Tulsa back?
Pleeezz there has to be more to it than that.
Look at those other cities and see the differance. It's how it's done, most have bigger corporate sponsers than Tulsa has allowed in to offer more than our local bamkroll can. Too many want their fingers in it and they ruin the idea that most citizens might invest in.
Bricktown wasn't done with bribes of the local rich families was it? OKC built a river in between some old buildings. Tulsa can't even keep the holes filled around our old buildings.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.
Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.
Cases in Point:
1. Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.
Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.
For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.
Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.
2. Our 1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.
Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone. A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.
3. In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.
And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.
[:O]
You could take examples 1 and 2, then put anything you want behind #3 and say it wont work for downtown. There is no logic in that. Tell me why it wont work? Tell me what you would do?
I think a development that will make an area more attractive, that will bring more people to downtown, that is pedestrian friendly,,, will indeed help other businesses, will give confidence to other developers to invest around it, will add to the critical mass of entertainment options, etc.
You can argue with the funding method, but I cant for the life of me see how it will hurt downtown, especially an area that really doesnt have much of anything in it anyway.
Even if it doesnt spur a single new development, the stadium, and the people that will go to the game, IS downtown revitalization. Every shop, every loft, every restaurant, every business, every park, every museum, any extra person that goes to any of those, etc. IS downtown revitalization.
Has McNellies added to the menu , food wise that is?
I found it rather limited last year when we ate there. The pork chops reminded me of something out of a frozen Sysco box.
Loved being able to get a Löwenbräu though [^]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.
Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.
Cases in Point:
1. Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.
Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.
For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.
Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.
2. Our 1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.
Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone. A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.
3. In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.
And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.
[:O]
You really don't know what you are talking about.
Tulsa has the worst stadium in its league.
Time to renovate or move.
Jenks wants the team. That's at least $100K in sales tax revenue the city stands to lose if they leave (prolly more when you factor in all the sales tax from businesses affected by the stadium).
We need sales tax revenue.
It's always in style.
You have to be a fool not to support this plan. Everyone on city council was behind the idea -- the three no votes were really more about the process (and perhaps their frustration with the limited power of that body).
If you don't like the city, move. I'll even pay for the U-haul. We don't need negative trolls like you.
If you have better idea of how to make Tulsa a better place, please propose it.
The thing is that you don't. You are 100% negative. You sit around and complain about everything.
You make up facts, attack good leaders, and routinely exhibit your frustration with you lot in life.
No other explanation.
The funny thing is that you always lose.
We are building the stadium. It's going to be great.
The city is heading in a positive direction.
And your frequent complaints have had no effect.
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.
Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.
Cases in Point:
1. Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.
Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.
For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.
Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.
2. Our 1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.
Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone. A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.
3. In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.
And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.
[:O]
You really don't know what you are talking about.
Tulsa has the worst stadium in its league.
Time to renovate or move.
Jenks wants the team. That's at least $100K in sales tax revenue the city stands to lose if they leave (prolly more when you factor in all the sales tax from businesses affected by the stadium).
We need sales tax revenue.
It's always in style.
You have to be a fool not to support this plan. Everyone on city council was behind the idea -- the three no votes were really more about the process (and perhaps their frustration with the limited power of that body).
If you don't like the city, move. I'll even pay for the U-haul. We don't need negative trolls like you.
If you have better idea of how to make Tulsa a better place, please propose it.
The thing is that you don't. You are 100% negative. You sit around and complain about everything.
You make up facts, attack good leaders, and routinely exhibit your frustration with you lot in life.
No other explanation.
The funny thing is that you always lose.
We are building the stadium. It's going to be great.
The city is heading in a positive direction.
And your frequent complaints have had no effect.
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
Ground Control to Gold:
Those in the KNOW know that Tulsa is in a Real Estate Bust-Out.
The smart money is high-tailing it to the suburbs.
Downtown Tulsa will have some fine edifices, such as BOK Arena, the One Technology Center City Hall, and a new Stadium.
However, with the good, high-paying JOBS being drained out of Tulsa for decades, it is only a matter of time before Downtown dies.
First retail. To the Suburbs.
Then, good jobs, to the Four Winds.
Except those public venues remaining on TAX-PAYER provided life support, downtown is D.O.A.
The Lorton's, the Schusterman's, the banks, et al, with big Real Estate investments downtown are clinging desparately to the capsizing lifeboat.
And, they want us to KEEP ROWING.
[:O]
We will see in 2012. [:D]
By then downtown will have turned the corner and be on its way with solid growth. "barring WWIII and or an economic collapse"
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
If you don't like it, move.
The leadership is really trying to do something.
Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.
It's like a cherry on top.
If you have a better idea, try to implement it.
But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.
So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.
Try OKC.
[:O]
The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.
Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.
Cases in Point:
1. Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.
Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.
For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.
Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.
2. Our 1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.
Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone. A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.
3. In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.
And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.
[:O]
You really don't know what you are talking about.
Tulsa has the worst stadium in its league.
Time to renovate or move.
Jenks wants the team. That's at least $100K in sales tax revenue the city stands to lose if they leave (prolly more when you factor in all the sales tax from businesses affected by the stadium).
We need sales tax revenue.
It's always in style.
You have to be a fool not to support this plan. Everyone on city council was behind the idea -- the three no votes were really more about the process (and perhaps their frustration with the limited power of that body).
If you don't like the city, move. I'll even pay for the U-haul. We don't need negative trolls like you.
If you have better idea of how to make Tulsa a better place, please propose it.
The thing is that you don't. You are 100% negative. You sit around and complain about everything.
You make up facts, attack good leaders, and routinely exhibit your frustration with you lot in life.
No other explanation.
The funny thing is that you always lose.
We are building the stadium. It's going to be great.
The city is heading in a positive direction.
And your frequent complaints have had no effect.
Poor Friendly Bear.
[:O]
Ground Control to Gold:
Those in the KNOW know that Tulsa is in a Real Estate Bust-Out.
The smart money is high-tailing it to the suburbs.
Downtown Tulsa will have some fine edifices, such as BOK Arena, the One Technology Center City Hall, and a new Stadium.
However, with the good, high-paying JOBS being drained out of Tulsa for decades, it is only a matter of time before Downtown dies.
First retail. To the Suburbs.
Then, good jobs, to the Four Winds.
Except those public venues remaining on TAX-PAYER provided life support, downtown is D.O.A.
The Lorton's, the Schusterman's, the banks, et al, with big Real Estate investments downtown are clinging desparately to the capsizing lifeboat.
And, they want us to KEEP ROWING.
[:O]
Meth is a terrible drug.
Quit using it.
I would say LOL @ Friendly Bear, but it's just sad watching you suffer like this.
I keep trying to put you out of your misery, give you an easy out.
But you keep coming back. Like an addict.
Let's think about this:
The largest concentration of high quality jobs are in downtown. They have been for decades?
Why? Lots of office space and you're near other high quality jobs.
Gas prices are going up (I only say this because I take you don't get out much).
The suburbs nationwide are being second guessed.
Jenks ain't even a top 100 place to live anymore.
The city is really trying to do something -- beyond the edifices you mention,
downtown has most of the region's historic churches,
the central campus of a large community college,
a satellite campus of a large state university that wants to add dorms and students,
lots of fine architecture,
the headquarters of several large companies,
some really nice commercial real estate (BOk),
Cain's Ballroom,
the Brady Theater,
several large festivals a year,
the Greenwood Cultural Center,
The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame,
interconnected to a couple of historic neighborhoods,
a growing set of bar districts that are finally becoming interconnected,
a pretty nice library,
federal and state courthouses,
and it's nowhere near you so it's probably really cool.
You are truly clueless.
If it's so bad for you, get out.
The rest of us want to be here.
I'm sick of braindead, blind bigots like yourself attacking the work the community is trying to do.
I'll pay your bus fair.
Be gone.
[:O]
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
No hate from YOU?
Listen to yourself.
Have some more MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid, and go back to sleep.
[:O]
gold one bear zero
(They might be the same person...golden bear)
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
My fault, I left the blackberry on the plane and now I can't get the notes as everyone else to stay on the same page
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
No hate from YOU?
Listen to yourself.
Have some more MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid, and go back to sleep.
[:O]
(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
No hate from YOU?
Listen to yourself.
Have some more MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid, and go back to sleep.
[:O]
(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg)
Regarding Gold's repeated personal attacks in this Forum, he knows this is a Political Topic in discussion forum.
The Rules of the Forum state "flaming, baiting and general trolling" are not allowed.
I don't see him being sanctioned for his repeated personal attacks.
His words aren't really harming me, but they do have a damaging effect on the quality of Forum discussion, and genuine Forum participants will simply start avoiding Tulsanow.org.
Making harsh comments about Tulsa Public Policy is allowed on this forum. Some posters may not like those opinions. However, those opinions are proper pursuant to the Forum Rules.
Making ugly comments about Forum participants, HOWEVER, which Gold is doing, is NOT allowed.
According to the Forum Rules.
So, what Gold has been REPEATEDLY doing since he accepted a Mission from God to in his own words, to run me out of Tulsa or out of this Forum, must actually be done with the approval of the Forum Administrators.
Right, Mr. and Ms. Forum Administrators???
Hmmmmh?
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Semgroup was only a handful of people once upon a time that has grown fast and had multiple offices. Maybe they will decide to build a headquartes at some point but I believe they bought First Data's old digs for a mint a few years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
No hate from YOU?
Listen to yourself.
Have some more MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid, and go back to sleep.
[:O]
(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg)
Regarding Gold's repeated personal attacks in this Forum, he knows this is a Political Topic in discussion forum.
The Rules of the Forum state "flaming, baiting and general trolling" are not allowed.
I don't see him being sanctioned for his repeated personal attacks.
His words aren't really harming me, but they do have a damaging effect on the quality of Forum discussion, and genuine Forum participants will simply start avoiding Tulsanow.org.
Making harsh comments about Tulsa Public Policy is allowed on this forum. Some posters may not like those opinions. However, those opinions are proper pursuant to the Forum Rules.
Making ugly comments about Forum participants, HOWEVER, which Gold is doing, is NOT allowed.
According to the Forum Rules.
So, what Gold has been REPEATEDLY doing since he accepted a Mission from God to in his own words, to run me out of Tulsa or out of this Forum, must actually be done with the approval of the Forum Administrators.
Right, Mr. and Ms. Forum Administrators???
Hmmmmh?
[:O]
So how is what you are doing not number two (baiting) and number three (general trolling)?
Maybe not number three, but I do see baiting in many of your posts. And yours do on occasion have some personal attacks in there. Just because the person you are attacking doesn't participate in this forum doesn't give you free reign to do so, IMO.
Personally, I'm sick of the back and forth. You provide complaints but no suggestion of remedies. To me, that makes you part of the problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
No hate from YOU?
Listen to yourself.
Have some more MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid, and go back to sleep.
[:O]
It's not hate, it's love.
I'm looking out for you, FB.
If you REALLY believe Tulsa is a Banana Republic that frustrates the liberty of the people who will lead it back to prosperity, get out.
If it's that bad, there's no reason to stay.
I even offered to pay the bus fair.
Otherwise, go rethink your nonsense and quit it with the libelous attacks on community leaders.
I love it when you go to the Tulsa Metrochamber koolaid bit . . . you're running out of material.
It's like Medlock talking about his MBA. Oh wait . . .
Meanwhile, those of who get out of the house from time to time are trying to make a difference.
You sit around and complain about everything that happens. You offer no alternatives. No ideas. Not even a funny remark.
Instead, it's the same tired BS about this conspiracy among a bunch of wealthy people and successful leaders (some who aren't all that wealthy) from you, over and over. It doesn't help, but allows you to vent your jealousy.
Get out of the way and shut up or join up. But this act has got to go.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
With so much "Golden" hatred one has to wonder how Gold can stand to live in a city without the fancy items. I always wonder why people like Gold want others to move when all they want to do is protect their city, not change it into any other city that Gold could move to instead and have all the golden eggs they want.
Just an added question, why isn't Semgroup officed downtown?
Why is Semgroup spread around the country? I don't know, I don't work for them.
Plenty of other business thrive down here.
No hate from me.
FB quits posting or moves and I'll leave him alone. Until then, his complete hatred for all development and progress needs to be called out. He's a sorry person and I've had enough of his attacks on people I know personally -- good, hardworking folks who have pride in their city. FB doesn't have pride in the city, much less pride in his effort to build a logical argument.
Why such poor argument from you?
No hate from YOU?
Listen to yourself.
Have some more MetroTulsaChamberPot Kool-Aid, and go back to sleep.
[:O]
(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg)
Regarding Gold's repeated personal attacks in this Forum, he knows this is a Political Topic in discussion forum.
The Rules of the Forum state "flaming, baiting and general trolling" are not allowed.
I don't see him being sanctioned for his repeated personal attacks.
His words aren't really harming me, but they do have a damaging effect on the quality of Forum discussion, and genuine Forum participants will simply start avoiding Tulsanow.org.
Making harsh comments about Tulsa Public Policy is allowed on this forum. Some posters may not like those opinions. However, those opinions are proper pursuant to the Forum Rules.
Making ugly comments about Forum participants, HOWEVER, which Gold is doing, is NOT allowed.
According to the Forum Rules.
So, what Gold has been REPEATEDLY doing since he accepted a Mission from God to in his own words, to run me out of Tulsa or out of this Forum, must actually be done with the approval of the Forum Administrators.
Right, Mr. and Ms. Forum Administrators???
Hmmmmh?
[:O]
I've got FB running for the hills now.
Poor FB.
FB's guide to posting:
1) Talk about the same non-sensical, circular conspiracy/tinfoil hat points over and over. In no particular order, these may include: the Tulsa World, F&M Bank, BOk, the Lortons, Utica Square, Manhattan Construction, Kathy Taylor, Judge Wiseman, the failed effort to have the 2025 ballot declared unlawful (that the Plaintiff refused to appeal), crime downtown, and so on.
2) If someone questions your knowledge, just make up facts such as "They shouldn't build a new stadium because they rarely sell out baseball games" or "the Drillers are bad even though the Texas league awards a first and second half champion" or "there is nothing downtown."
3) If that doesn't work, break out the line about the Tulsa Metro chamber koolaid (haven't heard that one before).
4) Never answer any questions, such as "what do you do for a living?" or "Can I buy you bus fair out of town?"
5) Start threads about the exact same topic when you have been made to look a fool in a previous thread about the topic.
6) Post the word "Poor" followed by the name of some civic leader you are jealous of.
7) If all else fails, complain to the moderators based on some pretty conclusory logic.
I've read this forum off and on for a few years. FB, your tone and lack of real insight into anything repeatedly have turned me away from reading this board. So, I would argue it cuts two ways -- yeah, I should be nice, but you shouldn't be able to demean good, hardworking people and repeatedly post a bunch of lies that you don't even believe (no one can believe what you say, because if it was that bad, you'd move).
I've been a moderator on different boards in the past and I follow a lot of these discussions. I have a a lot of respect for their job and the value of good conversation. I've tried to keep it funny and all I'm really doing is turning the tables on you -- you say much worse things about public and private figures. I mean, if my silly bizarro "FB" thing gets you down this much, how are you going to get a job when you move to the next town when you finally accept my bus ticket?
Beyond that, you routinely show an inability to counter my points. But, that gets back to you not getting out of the house much.
I mean, is it really that bad of a comment if it's true?
Poor FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Quote
Regarding Gold's repeated personal attacks in this Forum, he knows this is a Political Topic in discussion forum.
The Rules of the Forum state "flaming, baiting and general trolling" are not allowed.
I don't see him being sanctioned for his repeated personal attacks.
His words aren't really harming me, but they do have a damaging effect on the quality of Forum discussion, and genuine Forum participants will simply start avoiding Tulsanow.org.
Making harsh comments about Tulsa Public Policy is allowed on this forum. Some posters may not like those opinions. However, those opinions are proper pursuant to the Forum Rules.
Making ugly comments about Forum participants, HOWEVER, which Gold is doing, is NOT allowed.
According to the Forum Rules.
So, what Gold has been REPEATEDLY doing since he accepted a Mission from God to in his own words, to run me out of Tulsa or out of this Forum, must actually be done with the approval of the Forum Administrators.
Right, Mr. and Ms. Forum Administrators???
Hmmmmh?
[:O]
Being effectively refuted at every turn of your specious remarks, F.B., is not trolling.
I've seen you trot out this "trolling" argument before. It's when you're getting the hell beat out of you on your arguments (for which I applaud Gold on a job well done).
If you insist on making dubious arguments, F.B., you have to expect they'll be challenged. You're a big bear; you can take it.
Hmmmmmh?
[}:)]
This thread has deviated from the discussion of relevant issues and Friendly Bear has seen fit to start another thread questioning the need for a stadium and/or other items related to the efficacy therein. No good can come from continuing this discussion.
Please consider the closure of this thread a warning for participants to attempt to keep the discussion on the matter at hand and refrain from either personal attacks or other non-constructive behavior. Please provide at least a scintilla of support for your contentions and in exchange attack ideas, not those presenting them. There is room for cheerleader as well as dissent.
For the benefit of all, this thread is
LOCKED