Just plain wow.
Proof negative: Envy of city's success resurfaces
The Oklahoman Editorial
CAPITAL envy, which has been on the back burner in Tulsa since voters there passed a MAPS-style capital improvements program, boiled over last week after Forbes magazine named Oklahoma City the most recession-proof big city in the land.
A dismissive Tulsa newspaper editorial claims Oklahoma City topped the Forbes list "probably" because of its large government employee base. This is an oft-heard lament regarding the capital city, whose development is a decade ahead of Tulsa's largely because of MAPS and the private investment it's attracted.
Forbes doesn't mention government employment. Were that "probably" the reason for a city's recession-proof status, Washington, D.C., would lead the list every year and the rest of the list would be all be state capitals.
The conventional view is that Oklahoma City had an inferiority complex vis a vis Tulsa and Oklahoma had an inferiority complex vis a vis the nation. The latter has been assuaged by the success of OU football and Oklahomans who became famous. The former was obliterated by the rebirth of Oklahoma City in the wake of MAPS.
The relationship between Oklahoma City and Tulsa has evolved into a big brother-little sister equation, with the sister occasionally squeaking her high-pitched frustration with the older sibling. The headline on the Tulsa World editorial was "Recession proof?" The question mark speaks volumes, marginalizing the report and challenging Oklahoma City to put up or shut up.
We choose to put up with this sniveling because we think Tulsa's accomplishments are mighty and beneficial to the entire state. We wish Tulsa's opinion leaders shared our sentiments instead of retreating into petty provincialism.
The second-largest employer in Tulsa is a government entity — public schools — and the next two are nonprofit medical complexes. So profit-centered jobs don't exactly dominate the employment picture in Tulsa.
Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. In Tulsa it's a default setting.
http://newsok.com/proof-negative-envy-of-citys-success-resurfaces/article/3240939/?tm=1210295301
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Just plain wow.
Proof negative: Envy of city's success resurfaces
The Oklahoman Editorial
CAPITAL envy, which has been on the back burner in Tulsa since voters there passed a MAPS-style capital improvements program, boiled over last week after Forbes magazine named Oklahoma City the most recession-proof big city in the land.
A dismissive Tulsa newspaper editorial claims Oklahoma City topped the Forbes list "probably" because of its large government employee base. This is an oft-heard lament regarding the capital city, whose development is a decade ahead of Tulsa's largely because of MAPS and the private investment it's attracted.
Forbes doesn't mention government employment. Were that "probably" the reason for a city's recession-proof status, Washington, D.C., would lead the list every year and the rest of the list would be all be state capitals.
The conventional view is that Oklahoma City had an inferiority complex vis a vis Tulsa and Oklahoma had an inferiority complex vis a vis the nation. The latter has been assuaged by the success of OU football and Oklahomans who became famous. The former was obliterated by the rebirth of Oklahoma City in the wake of MAPS.
The relationship between Oklahoma City and Tulsa has evolved into a big brother-little sister equation, with the sister occasionally squeaking her high-pitched frustration with the older sibling. The headline on the Tulsa World editorial was "Recession proof?" The question mark speaks volumes, marginalizing the report and challenging Oklahoma City to put up or shut up.
We choose to put up with this sniveling because we think Tulsa's accomplishments are mighty and beneficial to the entire state. We wish Tulsa's opinion leaders shared our sentiments instead of retreating into petty provincialism.
The second-largest employer in Tulsa is a government entity — public schools — and the next two are nonprofit medical complexes. So profit-centered jobs don't exactly dominate the employment picture in Tulsa.
Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. In Tulsa it's a default setting.
http://newsok.com/proof-negative-envy-of-citys-success-resurfaces/article/3240939/?tm=1210295301
And a member of the Gaylord family that owns the newspaper this was printed in also owns the Sonics and got the state to give taxes to the Sonics and wants people from Tulsa to buy tickets to his team to make Oklahoma City economically viable for the NBA. I certainly don't think so.
Here is the editorial in the World that was so "offensive". It's truthful and actually pretty complimentary to Oklahoma City:
Recession proof?
by: World Editorial Writers
5/5/2008 12:00 AM
Government payrolls a big help
Forbes Magazine, via its Web site, has dubbed Oklahoma City America's most recession-proof big city. Local boosters are justifiably bursting with pride.
According to Forbes, Oklahoma City was top-ranked among the 50 largest metropolitan areas based on employment figures, housing prices and the impact of foreclosures on local productivity.
Forbes also noted the city's robust manufacturing sector and surging prices for agricultural crops and energy.
Unmentioned, however, was probably the single most recession-proofing factor:
The fact that so many of the city's jobs are government jobs.
Oklahoma City, of course, is the seat of its own local and county governments.
And because it is the state's capital, the dozens of state agencies there employ thousands. It is next door to Tinker Air Force Base, one of the largest, if not the largest, single employer in the state. And it is home to other major federal operations, including a big Federal Aviation Administration office.
These government jobs, by and large, are very stable and insulated from the vagaries of the private sector. The salaries they pay are very stable and the home loans of the people who hold the government jobs are not likely to fall into foreclosure.
A high number of safe and stable government jobs probably constitutes the best hedge against recession.
Oklahoma City has lots to be proud of. Its citizens' willingness to tax themselves to radically improve their downtown — including manufacturing a now nationally recognized "river" out of a muddy trickle — really has the city rolling.
Now our neighbors at the other end of the turnpike can justifiably point with pride to the Forbes-bestowed honor as the nation's most recession-proof city.
They just shouldn't forget the advantage that makes that so.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectID=61&articleID=20080505_7_A15_hGove14602
I'll preface my comments by stating that I have about as much affection for the Gaylord Death Star (aka The Daily Disappointment) as Michael Bates has for the "Whirled."
But if Tulsa had topped Forbes' list, would the Daily Oklahoman print a dismissive editorial like the Tulsa World did?
I'll give you a one word answer: No.
It was David Arnett and the TW who printed an editorial suggesting Tulsa secede and create its own state...
Decades ago, I used to think Tulsa was intrinsicly better than OKC. I used to think Tulsa was more progressive... and yes, cosmopolitan... I used to think Tulsa was more forward thinking. I also used to think Tulsa was alot more "provinicial"-- but in a good way. And I went along with conventional Tulsa wisdom that OKC is just a huge cowtown... the Cleveland of the South...
I used to think that Tulsa wants to be like Boston when it grows up... and OKC just wants to be more like Dallas.
Moving back here, I wonder if the only argument left is: "We have hills."
OKC has moved on. I hope someday Tulsa does.
Real Estate
City Council OKs $8M in incentives for outlet mall
May 7, 2008
OKLAHOMA CITY – The City Council approved nearly $8 million in economic incentives to help establish a massive outlet mall in western Oklahoma City on Tuesday.
The vote was 5-2 with Larry McAtee and Ronald Kelly dissenting. They asked for time to clarify the city's policy toward retail business incentives and more information about the developer, Horizon Group Properties, before committing to the plan.
"The Economic Development Trust, which I'm a member of, has been tasked with the responsibility of developing a policy or guideline for incentivizing retail," McAtee said. "Approving this retail incentivization before we have a policy in place, to me, is putting the cart before the horse."
McAtee, who represents the ward in which the mall is planned, said, "If it were to fit within the guidelines, then I would be supportive. If it's outside the guidelines, then I would be opposed to it."
Rosemont, Ill.-based Horizon plans to build a minimum of 340,000 square feet of space near Interstate 40 and Council Road at an initial investment of about $50 million, city officials said. Depending on the success of the center, another 75,000 square feet could be added later.
The mall, dubbed The Outlet Shoppes at Oklahoma City, is expected to have about $102 million in annual sales, which would provide the city with about $4 million in retail taxes. City staff reported that about half of those funds will be new to the local economy.
The development is expected to create about 1,000 new jobs with an annual payroll of $18.72 million. Those jobs will increase local sales tax by an additional $1.5 million, city staff reported. The project is also expected to create about $1.25 million in annual property taxes.
In return, the city will agree to pay for infrastructure improvements – largely traffic and drainage systems – at a cost of about $2.4 million. The city also agreed to reimburse Horizon for regional marketing expenses worth up to $5.5 million over 10 years.
The mall's construction is scheduled to begin Nov. 30 and be completed within a year.
City Manager Jim Couch reported to the council that the development will "promote sales tax base growth and offer citizens and visitors new shopping opportunities in Oklahoma City." He confirmed none of the costs will be associated with the recently approved general obligation limited tax bond authorization. The incentives will be paid for out of the city's Street & Alley and General Obligation Bond Funds and the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust.
Horizon owns, develops, renovates and operates retail shopping centers, including a dozen factory outlet malls totaling about 2 million square feet. Most of the company's properties are in the north central part of the country near the Great Lakes, with the rest scattered from California to Pennsylvania.
Horizon's typical tenants include Tommy Hilfiger, Lane Bryant, Nice West, Gymboree, and The Gap.
Chief Executive Gary Skoien said the company started looking at Oklahoma as a potential market in 2006, and recent news from Forbes business magazine that the state is better positioned to ride out a recession helped drive the final decision to build in the metro area.
"There's no real outlet center in the state of Oklahoma," Skoien said. "And it has about the right size population for an outlet center; you don't want to be too much smaller unless there's something else going on.
"And it's kind of my sense, which has been reported a lot lately, that it's got a more resilient economy than other places. ... It's kind of diverse in a positive way," he said. "And as we started looking at it, we started realizing that some of the national retailers were doing tremendous sales in Oklahoma City."
Answering Councilman Kelly's concerns that city officials should take a closer look at Horizon's other properties before moving forward, Skoien said the company's malls have strong operations.
"We just opened a center last October in El Paso, Texas, which is a similar-size city," he said. "And it's doing just terrific. Sales are beating expectations."
Of the less than 300 outlet malls scattered across the country, Skoien said, Horizon has owned, operated or developed more than half of them. It's highly unlikely Oklahoma City will be left with a low-sales mall, he said.
"Most of the major companies have decided that outlets are a strong channel of distribution. So I think the outlet business itself, by every indication, is very strong," he said. "Unlike what's happened in the past, outlet centers are being built closer to the population base. As opposed to the one that used to be right between Oklahoma City and Tulsa (in Stroud), this is right where the people are."
The company is publicly traded in the over-the-counter market under the symbol HGPI.PK. Its stock was trading at about $4.50 Tuesday, at the lower end of its 52-week range of $4.50-7.00.
They do a better job at allocating government handouts down the pike......those pikers.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
And a member of the Gaylord family that owns the newspaper this was printed in also owns the Sonics and got the state to give taxes to the Sonics and wants people from Tulsa to buy tickets to his team to make Oklahoma City economically viable for the NBA. I certainly don't think so.
They're making a huge mistake calling the team the Oklahoma City Supersonics (or whatever nickname they decide on). OKC isn't big enough in itself to support the team. The team needs the whole state to prosper. Calling the team the Oklahoma Sonics would send a message that the team is inclusive of the entire state. I see a huge number of Sonics jerseys being unsold because who in Tulsa wants a jersey for an OKC team? Calling the team the OKC Sonics implies the team belongs to OKC and not to the state. After all, you don't see the Salt Lake City Jazz, the Indianapolis Pacers, or the Minneapolis Timberwolves. They're about to make a huge mistake.
Personally, I couldn't care less one way or the other. I don't really care for the NBA as I'm a college b-ball fan. But I can see they're putting OKC arrogance above inclusiveness.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I'll preface my comments by stating that I have about as much affection for the Gaylord Death Star (aka The Daily Disappointment) as Michael Bates has for the "Whirled."
It was David Arnett and the TW who printed an editorial suggesting Tulsa secede and create its own state...
Tulsa, Sequoyah? It has a ring to it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Sequoyah
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
OKC has moved on. I hope someday Tulsa does.
I wish this were true. It seemed like it was true when their boosters were including Tulsa in the market talk for the Sonics and talking about a "Major League State." But then true colors were revealed when Mick Cornett practically threw a tantrum at a press conference when asked about the team name:
http://newsok.com/article/3232124
quote:
From the article:
Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett was fairly stern about his feelings on the subject, too: ""It will be the Oklahoma City whatevers. It will be Oklahoma City. I care much less about the second half of the name. I'll let other people determine the nickname of the team, but it will be Oklahoma City."
Sonics chairman Clay Bennett agreed.
"Our view is that the team should be named Oklahoma City. But it will be an Oklahoma asset. It will be marketed statewide and we believe it will be supported statewide."
Bennett said there is no pressure on ownership group to make the team Oklahoma as opposed to Oklahoma City.
They want Tulsa to play the supportive quiet little brother. We send our mayor and tax dollars to help get them their team, and at the end of the day, what OKC wants, OKC gets. Tulsa ns are supposed to smile and go along, when the state legislature tosses the NBA a $60-$100,000,000 subsidy but can't find $780,000 for a memorial and development in downtown Tulsa?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080502_1_A13_spanc30101
From OSU's 2007 Economic Outlook for:
Tulsa MSA (//%22http://economy.okstate.edu/outlook/2007/2007%20Oklahoma%20Economic%20Outlook%20-%20Tulsa%20MSA.pdf%22)
Oklahoma City MSA (//%22http://economy.okstate.edu/outlook/2007/2007%20Oklahoma%20Economic%20Outlook%20-%20Tulsa%20MSA.pdf%22)
The Tulsa MSA's total non-farm employment in 2007 was 428,080, of which 54,480 were Federal, State, and Local Gov't jobs; 12.7% of Tulsa's jobs are government of some kind. I guess the truth stings a bit.
Compare that to Oklahoma City. OKC MSA's employment in 2007 was 574,300, of which 115,820 were Gov't; that's 20.1%.
OKC's percentage of government workers is much higher than the US Average for 2007 of 16.1% (//%22ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt%22) and Tulsa's is much lower than the US average. One in five jobs in OKC is a stable, gov't job. If you are looking for economies that are "recession proof" then, that's a factor. I don't know what, exactly, OKC is b*tching about.
I'd agree with Bugo on the Sonics but his avitar makes me uneasy.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
I'd agree with Bugo on the Sonics but his avitar makes me uneasy.
why because just looking at it raises your IQ?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
The Tulsa MSA's total non-farm employment in 2007 was 428,080, of which 54,480 were Federal, State, and Local Gov't jobs; 12.7% of Tulsa's jobs are government of some kind. I guess the truth stings a bit.
Compare that to Oklahoma City. OKC MSA's employment in 2007 was 574,300, of which 115,820 were Gov't; that's 20.1%..
I've been saying that since I moved here! The FAA, FCC, IRS, Air Force, State Government, OU, OU Medical Center - all government jobs. All funded at least in part with money from Tulsa.
Of the government jobs in Tulsa, how many are paid for by folks down the turnpike?
OKC can have whatever they want. Success down the turnpike, in Joplin, West Arkansas... it's all good for Tulsa. But when Oklahoma City takes things FROM Tulsa to make OKC better, then the case is pretty clear that it is NOT good for Tulsa.
Such is the case with many government jobs and my taxes for an NBA team. I get reminded of subsidies to Oklahoma City every time my PikePass goes BEEEEEEP and another 65 cents is sent to subsidies the free roads in OKC.
Am I bitter? Perhaps. But why bother denying the truth of the matter?
And why the need to reduce the discussion to calling us a whining little girl?
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I'll preface my comments by stating that I have about as much affection for the Gaylord Death Star (aka The Daily Disappointment) as Michael Bates has for the "Whirled."
But if Tulsa had topped Forbes' list, would the Daily Oklahoman print a dismissive editorial like the Tulsa World did?
I'll give you a one word answer: No.
It was David Arnett and the TW who printed an editorial suggesting Tulsa secede and create its own state...
Decades ago, I used to think Tulsa was intrinsicly better than OKC. I used to think Tulsa was more progressive... and yes, cosmopolitan... I used to think Tulsa was more forward thinking. I also used to think Tulsa was alot more "provinicial"-- but in a good way. And I went along with conventional Tulsa wisdom that OKC is just a huge cowtown... the Cleveland of the South...
I used to think that Tulsa wants to be like Boston when it grows up... and OKC just wants to be more like Dallas.
Moving back here, I wonder if the only argument left is: "We have hills."
OKC has moved on. I hope someday Tulsa does.
I agree with every word.
quote:
From OSU's 2007 Economic Outlook for:
Tulsa MSA
Oklahoma City MSA
The Tulsa MSA's total non-farm employment in 2007 was 428,080, of which 54,480 were Federal, State, and Local Gov't jobs; 12.7% of Tulsa's jobs are government of some kind. I guess the truth stings a bit.
Compare that to Oklahoma City. OKC MSA's employment in 2007 was 574,300, of which 115,820 were Gov't; that's 20.1%.
OKC's percentage of government workers is much higher than the US Average for 2007 of 16.1% and Tulsa's is much lower than the US average. One in five jobs in OKC is a stable, gov't job. If you are looking for economies that are "recession proof" then, that's a factor. I don't know what, exactly, OKC is b*tching about.
I agree that The Oklahoman's editorial was juvenile. There was no need to get touchy about what Tulsa has to say.
However, if the Tulsa World editorial's argument were true, wouldn't that make Washington, D.C. America's most recession proof city?
quote:
Such is the case with many government jobs and my taxes for an NBA team. I get reminded of subsidies to Oklahoma City every time my PikePass goes BEEEEEEP and another 65 cents is sent to subsidies the free roads in OKC.
Really, since when did turnpike money start getting used for free roads? That's new to me.
quote:
Tulsa, Sequoyah? It has a ring to it...
That type of divisive attitude is EXACTLY why this country might not survive the 21st Century. Why don't Tulsa's reps tar and feather at the capitol until fair is fair instead of tossing in the towel and dream of becoming it's own state. Last time I checked, we are STILL a deomcracy.
quote:
They're making a huge mistake calling the team the Oklahoma City Supersonics (or whatever nickname they decide on). OKC isn't big enough in itself to support the team. The team needs the whole state to prosper. Calling the team the Oklahoma Sonics would send a message that the team is inclusive of the entire state. I see a huge number of Sonics jerseys being unsold because who in Tulsa wants a jersey for an OKC team? Calling the team the OKC Sonics implies the team belongs to OKC and not to the state. After all, you don't see the Salt Lake City Jazz, the Indianapolis Pacers, or the Minneapolis Timberwolves. They're about to make a huge mistake.
I agree. Calling the team Oklahoma Sonics wouldn't hurt. I'd love to have "Oklahoma City...", but this will be a state supported team. ESPN will remind everyone where the Sonics play. Mayor Cornett has done an awesome job keeping the momentum going in Oklahoma City, but in some respects, he needs to chillax.
OKC is nasty. Gross. Awful. Ugulee. Would rather dig ditches in T-Town than have a 9-5'er white collar in Old Cow City. Too bad OKC is not grodey-proof as well.
OKC Pulse,
Certainly you realize that there are 5 ways to get into Oklahoma city on major roads for free, there are zero ways to get in to Tulsa on a major road for free. We are forced to pay for our roads with tolls, meanwhile, your roads are paid for by governmental funds. If you fail to see a disparity in that then I question your observations.
Likewise, how many public hospitals are in Tulsa?
Tulsa is treated like the whining little sister we were described as. OKC has done well building itself up, kudos. But part of that has been the 25% of residents that depend on government jobs and other subsidies Tulsa has paid in - so when someone pretends that is not a factor I take exception to it. Look at the flow of money in to the state and then look at the flow of money out... it's easy to see which community benefits. We aren't talking about Tulsa Public Schools, jobs mostly paid for by the community... these are jobs that bring money from other parts of the State (and nation) in to Oklahoma City.
That and I'm still pissed that I'm subsidizing your NBA team. Which I imagine will only get more and more state money.
So to reiterate, I'm not bitter that Oklahoma City is doing well - but I do resent the fact that I am in part paying for it and that fact is being denied.
"The Oklahoman" is a strangely bush-league paper for such a large city. The writing in this opinion piece sounds like something out of a high school paper or blog (or the O'Reilly Factor!) than the editorial page of a professional news organization.
"We choose to put up with this sniveling..."
"Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. In Tulsa it's a default setting."
Huh? Did they just SAY that?
I glance at "The Oklahoman" every couple weeks. It makes me appreciate the Tulsa World. By comparison to the OKC rag, the TW is the Washington Post!
Okc Sucks.....
Kudos to OKC for kicking it up a notch and moving forward. Kudos to OKC for acquiring a pro team. But they truly forget that Tulsa has always been self-sustaining. Yes, that has created some problems for us (because we need to grow), but it has also given Tulsa a personality that OKC seems to lack. It's rare to hear from an outsider what they think of the people of OKC. It's simply that there's something to do in the town. However, when talking about Tulsa, it's the people of Tulsa that they remember. They're nice, hospitable and down-to-earth. That's what I've always heard.
OKC has alot of gov't workers because it's the Catital of the state. OKC is doing alot of work building a system of jogging trails. They have a nice 10 mile jogging trail around Lake Hefner and are working on plans to connect it to other areas of the city. OKC is also one of the largest land area cities in the USA the only other big city in land area is Jacksonville FL.[8D]
I understand OKC and Tulsa are big rival cities. If one city does something the other city has to out it. I heard that is why Tulsa buried a Plymouth car in 1957 to out do a time capsule that OKC did. The cities of Dallas & Fort Worth are big Rival cities too they can't stand each other. Fort-Worth boasts it's wild cowtown image and Dallas boasts it's gleaming Skyscrapers and oil money. They are often at each others throat. I know because I lived in Fort Worth, and when I moved to Arlington, Texas (the "mid-cities" area) I was caught in the middle of the feud. That is why the D/FW airport was built in the middle of the MetroPlex, each city wanted the airport in their town. I understand the TwinCities of MN. also feud alot (St. paul & Minnapolis)It's ruff living like that.[:(][xx(]
I would not paint the entire city as having the venom for Tulsa seen in this editorial. But, I certainly would have to think that this is the view of the Gaylord family who own the Oklahoman.
I will again note that one of the Gaylord daughters also happens to be married to the man who owns the Sonics, who, according to the NBA, are so dependant on Tulsans to buy tickets and watch games on TV to make an NBA team viable in Oklahoma City. And it was the power of the Gaylords that got that state tax funding for the Sonics. The hypocrisy here is what is really shocking. The very same family that would publish this editorial is at the same time begging for our support and grabbing our tax money for their NBA team
It's this kind of sentiment that Tulsa is up against in everything we need passed at the state level. "Oh, please help us, but shut up and don't ask for anything in return." There is no real spirit of cooperation from these people and they are very powerful in state government.
If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.
It's downright criminal.
1st - OKC has government jobs as the State capital, but in other State's those jobs are more spread out. The "second cities" often get a nod with a branch office. OKC also enjoys federal jobs at a disproportional level. Nearly 25% of jobs are governmental jobs, a very high percentage. I'm not *really* complaining about those jobs, but to pretend they aren't helping the city is obtuse.
2nd - It is not tough living as a rival city, it is essential. Preferably both cities will become better trying to out do the other (not copying). We can see what works and what doesn't and adopt those things that are best. We can compete on many levels and cooperate when it is in our interests. That's why so many competing cities prosper.
Without OKC down the turnpike with a revitalized downtown and a shiny new arena, do you think Tulsan's would even realize what kind of potential we are missing out on?
Which is why I wish OKC the best. If they wanted to become the next big thing I'd be glad to lap up their scraps, so long as Tulsa is better off at the end of the day. BUT, as I pointed out, it's when OKC improves at the cost of Tulsa that I get upset.
quote:
If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.
I do agree with you about the unlevel playing field between Tulsa and Oklahoma City when it comes to tax dollars. But do not, I repeat, do not use the Crosstown Bridge against us. Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?
I encourage you to drive the Crosstown Bridge. Heck, walk under it sometime. Be sure and wear a hard hat because you will find a few pieces of concrete falling here and there. All it takes is one pylon, just one, and the entire two-mile bridge will collapse. And this bridge is beyond rehab. Not to mention the number of potential deaths on a heavily traveled bridge... 130,000 vehicles a day.
But I guess it will take another Minneapolis episode to get people to realize the seriousness. This country has always been good at being reactive instead of proactive.
quote:
Originally posted by okcpulse
quote:
If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.
I do agree with you about the unlevel playing field between Tulsa and Oklahoma City when it comes to tax dollars. But do not, I repeat, do not use the Crosstown Bridge against us. Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?
I encourage you to drive the Crosstown Bridge. Heck, walk under it sometime. Be sure and wear a hard hat because you will find a few pieces of concrete falling here and there. All it takes is one pylon, just one, and the entire two-mile bridge will collapse. And this bridge is beyond rehab. Not to mention the number of potential deaths on a heavily traveled bridge... 130,000 vehicles a day.
But I guess it will take another Minneapolis episode to get people to realize the seriousness. This country has always been good at being reactive instead of proactive.
If you do some research on the state of I-44 in Tulsa, you'll see that I-244 where it crosses over the Arkansas River is in a horrible state of disrepair. Do some searches on the Whirled website regarding chunks of concrete falling off bridges in Tulsa and you'll find no less than two articles in the past year.
I-44 at the bend (the transition where it runs southwest to it's transitioning to a more westerly route) is dangerous, and has been documented as such. Why has half of I-44 in Tulsa been completed for nearly 10 years, but this section has yet to see any dirt turn other than the eminent domain buyouts for preparation?
You guys complain of us have elitist attitudes, but Tulsa's the one that gets passed over like the red-headed stepchild (not you specifically OKCPulse, I've seen several OKC natives complain about that. Can Tulsa help it as to how we evolved?)
quote:
Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?
Yes! The section slated for renewal is very well worn.
So is I-244. There was an article in the paper just a couple days ago about I-244 bridges hanging on by a thread.
Some of the downtown bridges are so bad we aren't even allowed to WALK on them anymore.
412 out of Tulsa (Until it becomes a toll) and 75 out of town would both be better off gravel.
And then roads in general, argh! The 25% additional rain we get coupled with the extreme weather shifts do a number on our roads. I'm sure you can relate (I realize this is more of a local issues, but still on topic).
I think we can agree that we have been funding pet projects while letting some priorities rot away in this state in general.
quote:
Originally posted by okcpulse
quote:
If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.
I do agree with you about the unlevel playing field between Tulsa and Oklahoma City when it comes to tax dollars. But do not, I repeat, do not use the Crosstown Bridge against us. Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?
I encourage you to drive the Crosstown Bridge. Heck, walk under it sometime. Be sure and wear a hard hat because you will find a few pieces of concrete falling here and there. All it takes is one pylon, just one, and the entire two-mile bridge will collapse. And this bridge is beyond rehab. Not to mention the number of potential deaths on a heavily traveled bridge... 130,000 vehicles a day.
But I guess it will take another Minneapolis episode to get people to realize the seriousness. This country has always been good at being reactive instead of proactive.
You want to compare the condition of the Crosstown to I-44? There have been multiple reports of concrete giving way on I-44 too, I-44 has worse congestion (due to it's only being four lanes) and the section of I-44 from the Arkansas to Harvard has been called, by ODOT, the most dangerous stretch of highway in the state.
The Crosstown could have been redecked or replaced in it's current path for a fraction of the cost of what is being done. I-44 started it's "five year" widening project 20 years before the Crosstown and will likely be completed a decade later. The Crosstown project is substantially a downtown rehab project for Oklahoma City. We all know it.
And I-44 is not the only pressing need in Tulsa. How about the fact that the I-244 bridge over the Arkansas is rated substantially lower that the Crosstown? If the Crosstown was SO pressing then why does the lowest rated large interstate bridge in the state have NO plans for replacement at all? That bridge is the mile long I-244 bridge over the Arkansas.
And that's not the worst Interstate bridge in Tulsa. There is a bridge over I-244 downtown so bad that the fire station located right next to it is not allowed to use it.
There is a danger of another Minneapolis, but that danger is in Tulsa, not on the Crosstown in Oklahoma City.
Nice rhetoric though.
Ha. When I was the eitor of "The Northeastern" many years ago, we had a campaign to succeed Green Country from Oklahoma. I still agree.
We currently have a lake house near Tenkiller Lake and the other day The Oklahoman called to try to sell us a subscription! I was shocked. They're trying to spread their posion across the state. Without being rude to the sales person, I expressed our disgust at the newspaper.
We lived in Edmond for a time and took that paper, but ended up cancelling our subscription. It was too hard on our blood pressure.
And we know of at least one huge businessman in OKC who has "Tulsa Envy" really badly and would do almost anything to tip the scales toward OKC. I won't name him here.
Tulsans, we have to save ourselves and quit voting down issues like the River Tax. Tulsa is a great city, but she needs our support. OKC is a horrible place to live.
Thank goodness we have George Kaiser, though. We're very lucky there.
I can not and will not comment on OKC being a "horrible place to live." It is apperent some people like it there and I can find good things about the city. So lets not turn this into a "they suck" no "you suck" thread.
But I agree Tulsa has to stand on it's own legs if it was to prosper.
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The Crosstown could have been redecked or replaced in it's current path for a fraction of the cost of what is being done.
I disagree. A federal engineering study in the 1990s estimated it would cost $100 million more to rebuild the Crosstown Bridge in its place. Redecking won't do any good. The structure itself is too far out of date. We're talking about a bridge completed in 1967.
The stretch of I-44 in Tulsa is ground level, so how can it collapse? It IS the most dangerous stretch of Interstate in Oklahoma and is WAY over-congested. I blame the state for dragging their feet on this one.
But again, a collapsing bridge to me is more of a concern. The Crosstown was supposed to be completed in 2009. Its completion date has been pushed back to 2012.
Broadway Extension in Oklahoma City had to wait for the Broken Arrow Expressway expansion to be completed before expansion could even begin on Broadway.
Now I would have a huge problem if Oklahoma City got the state to pay for the new downtown boulevard that will be built in place of the old Crosstown Bridge path. But OKC is footing the bill on that one.
I would also imagine that rebuild or redecking the bridge would cost more in maintenance long term than the current plan to built the new three mile stretch at ground level, which requires less maintenance and inspections.
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Originally posted by TulsaSue
Ha. When I was the eitor of "The Northeastern" many years ago, we had a campaign to succeed Green Country from Oklahoma. I still agree.
We currently have a lake house near Tenkiller Lake and the other day The Oklahoman called to try to sell us a subscription! I was shocked. They're trying to spread their posion across the state. Without being rude to the sales person, I expressed our disgust at the newspaper.
We lived in Edmond for a time and took that paper, but ended up cancelling our subscription. It was too hard on our blood pressure.
And we know of at least one huge businessman in OKC who has "Tulsa Envy" really badly and would do almost anything to tip the scales toward OKC. I won't name him here.
Tulsans, we have to save ourselves and quit voting down issues like the River Tax. Tulsa is a great city, but she needs our support. OKC is a horrible place to live.
Thank goodness we have George Kaiser, though. We're very lucky there.
OKC is a really great place to live according to everyone I know who lives there. They are proud of their city. I don't understand what you have against it. Maybe it's because I'm a Tulsan who went to OU, but I see both sides. I don't agree with their money grab, but it's turned into a fun, more attractive (relatively), forward-thinking city.
That secession talk was idiotic. All it does is fuel the fire and make it less likely for the rest of the state to support Tulsa's efforts in the legislature.
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Originally posted by okcpulse
quote:
The Crosstown could have been redecked or replaced in it's current path for a fraction of the cost of what is being done.
I disagree. A federal engineering study in the 1990s estimated it would cost $100 million more to rebuild the Crosstown Bridge in its place. Redecking won't do any good. The structure itself is too far out of date. We're talking about a bridge completed in 1967.
The stretch of I-44 in Tulsa is ground level, so how can it collapse? It IS the most dangerous stretch of Interstate in Oklahoma and is WAY over-congested. I blame the state for dragging their feet on this one.
But again, a collapsing bridge to me is more of a concern. The Crosstown was supposed to be completed in 2009. Its completion date has been pushed back to 2012.
Broadway Extension in Oklahoma City had to wait for the Broken Arrow Expressway expansion to be completed before expansion could even begin on Broadway.
Now I would have a huge problem if Oklahoma City got the state to pay for the new downtown boulevard that will be built in place of the old Crosstown Bridge path. But OKC is footing the bill on that one.
I would also imagine that rebuild or redecking the bridge would cost more in maintenance long term than the current plan to built the new three mile stretch at ground level, which requires less maintenance and inspections.
I-44 in Tulsa dates to 1957, ten years older than the Crosstown, it's two lanes narrower and there are many crumbling bridges involved.
There certainly were reports that the Crosstown could be redecked for a fraction of the cost and you completely ignored the condition of the I-244 bridge over the Arkansas.
http://www.okimc.org/node/435
And I would like to see a link to the study about it costing $100 more to rebuild in place. I can maybe see the construction cost being higher, but a huge percentage of the cost of the new highway is land acquisition which would more than make up for any increase in construction costs.
And here's a nice quote from ODOT:
"Interstate 40, one of the largest and busiest thoroughfares through the heart of Oklahoma City, is being relocated approximately five blocks south of its current location in downtown Oklahoma City. It is the largest transportation construction project in Oklahoma's history and when complete, is sure to leave a favorable impression on our visitors."
A nice impression on visitors? That's the first mention on how the new highway will be an improvement over the old one. The very first noted improvement, from the STATE transportation department.
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsmedia/i40-okc/index.htm
Here's a quote from the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (OKC's version of INCOG):
"The new boulevard will provide Oklahoma City the opportunity to create a beautiful first impression for visitors. The thoroughfare will allow for economic growth, and with 12 ports to downtown Oklahoma City's entertainment district will continue to blossom."
http://www.acogok.org/Newsroom/View_News.asp?article=241
Just be quiet about the Crosstown being a purely or even a mostly transportation project. It just as bad as when the state spent highway funds to finish the state capital dome. This is a $557 million dollar downtown improvement project, not a highway project.
I'm glad the Oklahoman printed this article. Tulsa is finally realizing it can't be complacent. The market for tourism, new business development, and quality jobs is highly competitive. OKC is obviously one of Tulsa's biggest competitors.
As a native Tulsan, I believe Tulsa is a much more urban, cultural, and open-minded city than OKC. However, how in the hell does anyone in neighboring states, the rest of Oklahoma, or Owasso, for that matter know that? Only through aggressive marketing and constant improvement will Tulsa effloresce its cultural assets to their potential level of enjoyment.
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and you completely ignored the condition of the I-244 bridge over the Arkansas.
I can't reply all at once. I am at work and I am really not supposed to be on here. But I will reply. I-244 is more critical, indeed. But why blame that directly on OKC? Blame state politicians and ODOT.
The good news is that ODOT is now solely in charge of which bridges and highways get fixed first. Politicians can no longer make those decisions.
Everyone in OKC hates the Daily Oklahoman. We're still waiting for that brave soul to start a meaningful paper. But there are times when the Gayloards can do some arm-twisting that benefit us in OKC. It may not be right, but people are less likely to argue (example: the NBA).
But in the past, why pin Oklahoma City reps to the wall for being more aggressive in obtaining tax dollars for Oklahoma City highways? They did what they were hired to do, right? Why didn't Tulsa pols act as aggressively?
I do agree, completing the dome with highway money was just plain stupid.
Oklahoma's entire highway system needs to be revamped. I do hope I-244 gets attention. It tears up by car when in Oklahoma.
From today's Tulsa World:
quote:
OKC mayor to visit Tulsa: Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett, who has played a key role in the relocation of an NBA team to Oklahoma City, will be the featured speaker at a luncheon Thursday sponsored by Tulsa Sports Charities. The luncheon starts at noon at Freddie's Steak House (1425 New Sapulpa Road) and costs $15 per person. To RSVP, contact Tommy Thompson at 645-4905 or by e-mail at trtommy@cox.net.
A good opportunity to congratulate Cornett on his myopic marketing acumen of exclusivity.
Niiice...
Remember how we need a bit more for the Race Riot Memorial here in Tulsa. That it was promised by the state that we would get it... But they just cant find the money?
Remember how we heard that the Indian Cultural Center, that is under construction in OKC, was having financial shortfalls?
Well guess what I ran across in todays TW
"Meanwhile, Gov. Brad Henry has called for $25 million to $45 million in bonds to complete an American Indian Cultural Center and Museum in Oklahoma City"
Niiice, more of our tax dollars to go to something in OKC. No mention of any ability to find the remaining, relatively much smaller, amount for the Race Riot Memorial here. As usual.
But we shouldn't be envious of OKC, its a deadly sin ya know.
^ I blame Stratton Taylor... [xx(] Compare Hwy66 between Claremore and Vinita to Tulsa's I-44 and I-244... rinse, repeat...
Per capita the rural counties get way, WAY more than their fair share. On a dollar-in dollar-out basis they get more. By the dollar basis Tulsa County is by far the biggest loser in the State. Yay!
And Artist's example is the epitome of what we are talking about. $1 million for a memorial in Tulsa? No way. Money for an Indian museum at the end of The Trail of Tears or the city that straddles the Cherokee, Osage and Creek nations? Not needed.
What? Another tourist item for OKC - here's $40,000,000.00.
To be honest, I feel slighted. Perhaps the State is just not doing a good enough job letting us know the details or maybe I just don't pay attention. But that's my perception.
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Originally posted by TheArtist
Niiice...
Remember how we need a bit more for the Race Riot Memorial here in Tulsa. That it was promised by the state that we would get it... But they just cant find the money?
Remember how we heard that the Indian Cultural Center, that is under construction in OKC, was having financial shortfalls?
Well guess what I ran across in todays TW
"Meanwhile, Gov. Brad Henry has called for $25 million to $45 million in bonds to complete an American Indian Cultural Center and Museum in Oklahoma City"
Niiice, more of our tax dollars to go to something in OKC. No mention of any ability to find the remaining, relatively much smaller, amount for the Race Riot Memorial here. As usual.
But we shouldn't be envious of OKC, its a deadly sin ya know.
It's just the Tulsa PREMIUM, again.
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Originally posted by bugo
They're making a huge mistake calling the team the Oklahoma City Supersonics (or whatever nickname they decide on). OKC isn't big enough in itself to support the team. The team needs the whole state to prosper. Calling the team the Oklahoma Sonics would send a message that the team is inclusive of the entire state.
I'm a big believer in requiring teams that relocate to change their names to avoid having a mascot that has nothing to do with the new location of the team (how well is Utah known for its jazz or LA for its lakes?).
The name "Oklahoma Turnpikes" somehow seems to fit and would definitely be "inclusive of the entire state."
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Originally posted by Sardonicus Rex
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Originally posted by bugo
They're making a huge mistake calling the team the Oklahoma City Supersonics (or whatever nickname they decide on). OKC isn't big enough in itself to support the team. The team needs the whole state to prosper. Calling the team the Oklahoma Sonics would send a message that the team is inclusive of the entire state.
I'm a big believer in requiring teams that relocate to change their names to avoid having a mascot that has nothing to do with the new location of the team (how well is Utah known for its jazz or LA for its lakes?).
The name "Oklahoma Turnpikes" somehow seems to fit and would definitely be "inclusive of the entire state."
"Oklahoma Mis-directed Funds"? Not sure of the mascot for that one.