The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I know there have been a lot of references to the Brookside QT in other threads, but I couldn't find anything dedicated to the QT expansion in Brookside, so I'm starting fresh.

Starting April 1 (no joke), they are going to begin tearing down the former Lee's Bicycle shop to put in more parking and gas pumps for QT.  According to the QT clerk I talked to, there's no current plan to enlarge the store itself, or turn it into one of the next "generation" stores.  (While I was there, I heard another customer ask if it was going to be an "urban QuikTrip."  That would be nice, but keep dreaming...there's no such thing.)

"Call something paradise, kiss it goodbye..."

So Brookside suffers another blow thanks to "progress."  Another street-facing retail store (part of what makes Brookside unique and desireable in the first place) will go away, to be replaced by more asphalt and gas pumps (not unique or desireable to Brookside, the neighborhood, or the entertainment district).

PLANiTULSA specifically calls for keeping and enhancing our traditional streetscapes.  It describes a future for Tulsa that would be familiar to those who remember the past...similar to the best parts of Brookside, but better.  And it recommends placing parking in the rear, so shops and other buildings can be brought up to the sidewalks to make arterial streets more attractive and more pedestrian- and transit-friendly.

It does not recommend tearing down perfectly good street-facing retail buildings in thriving neighborhood/commercial districts to make room for more street facing parking and gas pumps.  QT is behind the curve and moving in the wrong direction.  One size does not fit all.  Not all neighborhoods are the same, and not all QTs should be the same.  Brookside is not I-44 or 71st and Memorial.  QT can't seem to recognize the difference....or realize that this difference is what makes Brookside so popular and successful in the first place.

Not that they care.  They just want to sell more gas.

Some day, I hope QT will live up to it's reputation as a "good citizen" and learn how to be a good neighbor, too.

Ponder, I think the ordinances are written as:

"This applies to everyone but Quik Trip, Bumgarner, any member of the HBA, and any other TMAPC or INCOG bootlicker as we may see fit"

But customer familiarity is one of the things that make QT so popular and successful in the first place.

Same can be said for McDonald's, Sears, Wal-Mart, etc. but they are finding ways to fit into communities who are more restrictive as well.  I was incredibly impressed at how well the local Sears, Burger King and McD's fit in with the rest of Pagosa Springs, Co. when I was there a few weeks ago and they looked nothing like I'm used to seeing in other areas.

I still cant get over the gall it took to submit false exhibits to the city for their 21st and Harvard store.  It's fixed now, and much better, but Ill bet it would have cost them a lot less money if they had not tried to slip non-conforming lighting past the neighborhood.

Well keep an eye on the west side of 36th pl to 38th & Peoria.   ;)

Personally, I think what makes QT so successful is the customer service.  I know that when I walk in, everything will be clean, stocked, and I'll get through the checkout line in .065 seconds or less.  

But if all we do is fill Brookside with gas pumps and asphalt (hey, it's zoned commercial!), there will be no more Brookside to love...or to fuel (ah-hem) the local economy, housing market, customer base, etc.  We have to start making smarter decisions that are more far-sighted than this.  The current expansion may help QT make more money in the short term...but if Brookside continues to lose it's urban fabric and walkable charm, QT will suffer in the long term.

I am not taking QT's side on this store expansion in Brookside. Brookside is special and I would hope that every business would want to embrace that fact.

I am just pointing out that before QT, many people were afraid to go to a convenience store. I swear they invented the floor to ceiling window and well-lit parking lots that were more inviting and comfortable. They feel safe. When I go to other cities and their convenience stores they often don't. QT changed the way many people shop.

QT is building a new store at 21st and Memorial. When I bought my house in the neighborhood we had a grocery store there. Alberstson's walked away and left it vacant and an eyesore. Now we have to travel over two miles to grocery shop.

QT is being cheered for investing in my hood.  

Not meaning to drift, but were you in the neighborhood when the lot on the NW corner was still Wendy's?

You grew up in Tulsa as well.  Certainly you remember when Crow Creek and Pei-Wei/Starbucks were gas stations and there were even more stations between there and 51st.  Granted, I want to see QT be neighborhood-centric, but if all we have to see is three clusters of gas pumps between 31st & 51st now (the two QT's and the Kum & Go or whatever is on the NE corner at 41st) that's a major improvement.  There's also been some less than stellar conversions of some ugly existing buildings into something else that still looks like huddah.

Point well taken, but it could be a lot worse and Brookside could still look like the service station capital of Tulsa.  ;)

A good compromise with QT at this point would be requiring a streetscape on their Peoria frontage similar to the rest of the district with lighting and street trees.  I hate to see the Lee's building go but I am glad they are downtown now.  I wish QT would've just moved down closer to 41st.

 Here is the e-mail I sent to a contact at the Brookside Business Association on Jan 8th....


  I am sure that you are aware by now that Lee's is moving and that QT intends to expand into that location.  While it great to see businesses expand, they should not do so in contravention of the Brookside Plan that so many have worked very hard to create and implement.  In order for Brookside to continue to  improve and flourish, it must at least maintain its pedestrian friendly nature, protecting the pedestrian friendly fabric it does have and with any new developments coming up to the sidewalks, etc.  The expansion of the QT will tear out some of this pedestrian friendly fabric in a section that is already a weak link/gap along Brookside, and will then build a structure that will further destroy any hoped for sense of connectedness and walk-ability.
 
  It will be very difficult in the future to tell any other chain, or big box retailer NO, to tearing out more good street fabric and building hurtful, car oriented parking lots and structures, if you allow this QT development to go forward.  You will have no grounds to stand on if you do not stand up against this QT development.  
 
   The Bomasada Development, while controversial, had both, positives that respected the aims of the Brookside Plan (density for instance) and negatives (lack of connectedness and pedestrian friendliness and height), but one could make an argument that with compromises the balance of the development would be a positive, reflecting the over all aims for Brookside.  This QT development in no way suits any of the goals the Brookside Plan lays out.  It actually does just the opposite.  The only "possible" argument that could be made is that it may increase car traffic, or convenience for people going to that business.  But this could be said for someone going in and tearing out some art galleries for instance and placing in a standard "Hobby Lobby" in another section of Brookside.  This is not the direction Brookside should want to go.
 
  There are reasons why Brookside is an attractive, successful, and cherished place.  There are reasons why strip malls and suburban, car oriented developments are also successful.  But they often follow very different development models that are contrary to each other.  In a primarily car oriented city, the temptation will always exist for businesses to come into areas like Brookside and supplant its pedestrian friendly nature with suburban, car oriented, developments.   Ignoring the Brookside Plan,  and turning a blind eye to one, your going to find it much harder in the future to get people to stand beside you when the next one happens, and the next... You might be surprised at how much negative impact "only one or two" seemingly small, negative changes, can have on an area like Brookside, changing its feel and nature.  One would have hoped that sometime in the future the Blockbuster building would be torn down and a new structure would go in, built up to the sidewalk, to help improve that section of Brookside.  A small gas station has its pluses and negatives.  One could hope that it too would eventually leave, but to both have it expand and tear out more good fabric in the process...  I hope you can see the harm this could do, not only now, but as a precedent for the future.  
 
Here is the response.......

Thank you so much for your input. You make very valid points. I would like to forward this to GT Bynum and Karen Keith along to other Brookside Businesses with your permission of course. Because QT is not a BBA member we are not kept as informed.   Are you okay with me forwarding?

I said yes.

I wonder where all the people are who were up in arms about the Bomasada Development? I am also curious as to what they are doing with the old Hollywood Video place? Looks like the wall that was facing the street will no longer be windows and will just be a blank wall, unless they cut windows in what they are doing now.  Does the Brookside Plan have absolutely no support or worth?

It's pretty ironic, as someone who closely follows the urban development in my favorite cities, how the ignoramus masses will come out en masse opposed to a good development if they're intimidated by it. And let's face it, people are against others having money. That's what I've decided, after I've seen this play out time after time. When you see a classy, upscale development like the derailed Bomasada project, people say it's out of character for the neighborhood--although if it's built to scale, who cares? People will oppose "rich people" moving in, but do people really care about development issues at the end of the day? As evidenced by this QT deal, or SandRidge in DT OKC, or wherever else urban fabric is whittled away for 21st-century suburban development, I don't think that people care at all.

Honestly the bottom line in urban development is scale, and there's no reason that a QT couldn't be done to scale..why can't the pumps face the cross street and the building face Peoria? That would be just as easy for ingress and egress, and probably more efficient even.

I remember when QT was the guilty party of a deal I hated a few years ago, also on Peoria. It would be pretty cool if they had restored the old Camelot Hotel and brought life back to an interesting piece of mid-century architecture. Just because Frank Lloyd Wright wasn't the architect, doesn't mean mid-century architecture isn't worth preserving. Now that it's apparent that the I-44 expansion is going to be to the south side of the current Skelly Drive right-of-way, so Camelot should have stayed in hindsight, and surely the brand new highway would have attracted investors. The old Camelot Hotel was torn down for nothing more than a QuikTrip at the end of the day, and as great as QT is compared to 7/11, that doesn't mean it's a suitable development replacement for a skyscraper, or even a midrise psuedo-historic hotel, nor should it be emphasized as a cornerstone in Brookside's new growth area.

The area between Whole Foods and the Starbucks represents an area where Brookside can become even better through new development, but scale is of the essence--and a QT throws that scale out of whack. The reason Brookside is well-liked is because the area is inviting, bustling, and well-hemmed in--when gas pumps replace buildings that meet the sidewalk, you lose 2 out of 3, and nobody wants to relax somewhere that's bustling and not inviting or exciting.

I will say though, to end this rant on a positive note..it was an ingenious idea in Tulsa, however it originated, to call certain areas "Brookside" and not "Peoria;" and "Cherry Street" and not "15th Street." This takes the psychological emphasis off of the street and puts it on the neighborhoods and the buildings. The street works for the building, not vice versa. I realize Cherry Street is the original name of 15th (I think? I'm no Tulsa expert, never would claim to be), and the idea likely didn't even cross their mind--but with these areas called Cherry Street and Brookside, rather than actually referring to the name of the major artery that cuts through the area, it SHOULD be pretty easy to grasp these urban concepts. You'd think..

It should be pointed out the NIMBYs didn't win with Bomasada, it was just a victim of the credit crunch with the recession, it remains approved and if the develop decides could be restarted at any time, if they are economically healthy enough, I have no idea if they are or aren't. I don't believe the site is for sale, that is somewhat telling.

And as for the Camelot, a friend of mine's grandfather built it, I loved it as a kid, I was very sad to see it go. But with the condition it was in, and the asbestos, it was never going to be brought back to life, and it empty it was hurting the area.

QT has another store at 45th & Peoria at the south end Brookside.  Why not expand that store, which has a parking lot next to it, and leave the one at 36th 'as is' saving the Lee's building?

Do you happen to recall QT buying and demolishing the Camelot hotel?  Things are in limbo until the highway widening is complete - which at Peoria is the final phase a couple of years from now I believe.  I'm guessing QT sees that spot as being hard to access in the middle of the construction and has chosen to wait it out.  The current construction already killed the Waffle House at that location.

How is an expanded QT at 36th going to be any more pedestrian unfriendly than the current QT?  There is already a QT there, I don't see the size of the QT having any effect besides possibly not being so cramped.  Currently that parking lot is so jam packed with cars backing in and out of, and waiting for spots, that the danger of minor collisions is extremely high.  As far as pedestrians go, this creates a lot of blind spots for drivers.  Before someone fires back at me "Well why don't we just put a Wal-mart supercenter there you big silly goose!" all I am saying is that a QuikTrip is a QuikTrip is a QuikTrip.  This doesn't really change anything for better or worse.

A streetscape/landscaping compromise does sound good though.

Have you read the Brookside plan?

They sold and re-sold the Camelot several times and it was to structurally obosolete.

As far as it being a good example of mid-century design?  Not a chance.  That was a poor regurgitation of medieval Europe, not a prime example of MCM architecture.

Speaking of...what is the really cool multi-story building next to the geodesic dome up near Asian-town in OKC in the 23rd & Classen area?  I drove past Saturday and was quite intrigued with it.

The Classen upscale apartments.Search theclassenokc.com

I am pretty sure there is/was a bar off the parking garage that I went to there.  It was a mix between Cellar Dweller/Lennie's in the style of FLW. No idea what it was called though, I just remember our coctail waitress was an older lady.

Prohibition Room.

The Lee's building is gone..   :(

The only saving grace will be for Quiktrip to beautify its streetscape along Peoria with some street trees and new sidewalks.  I still don't understand why QT needed to do this though. 

(http://www.whyy.org/blogs/itsourcity/files/2008/11/bag_of_money.png)

New Lee's looks to be up and running down the street from city hall downtown. Looks nice!

Yup! I've already been in twice. Very nice facility and a great addition to the streetscape.

I guess that's a decent silver lining to have a new bike shop downtown in a renovated, previously empty storefront.  That is too bad for Brookside however because with the church across the street that becomes more of a 'hole' in the urban 'street wall' that has been so successful north of 36th.  Interesting that Crusty Croisant across the street moved downtown as well and is still empty. 

Well, there were some on the BNA who were against the expension of the QT and a majority felt is would be OK.  I myself wondered WHY QT needed three stores on Peoria between 36th and 51st?
But, it wasn't a very big discussion.  Adding pumps and not adding clerks and computers inside the store to some may seem like an inefficient way to deal with increased traffic in and out of the store, but again QT spokesperson said that would not happen and it shouldn't matter. The last thing Brookside needs is ever-expanding store fronts and big boxes coming into the strip.  41st street has two, there is Walmart family market as well. If these start traveling up Peoria from 41st to 31st, Brookside will be gone!!!  Neighbors need to be more involved and join the BNA and have their concerns made known.
Thanks for bringing up this discussion. We lost the fight on Bomasada and a 4-5 story monstrousity is still possible due to the change in zoning, which should have never happened.  The powers that be lied about the Brookside plan in this case in order to please the developer and thumb their noses at the residents of this neighborhood. Everyone seems to cheer 'progress', but the question is WHOSE progress??  The quality of life for the neighbors or the profits of the corporations?  Food Pyramid, Walmart, QT, Bomasada are all corporations and with the exception of QT, all are outsiders and ha

....and have no ties to the community.  Food Pyramid lets trash pile up along 39th street and does not take care of the landscaping like they agreed.  THeir truck traffic was a problem until neighbors complained and they put up barriers to prevent the drivers from traveling north of the building over the landscapes onto  39th street.  The city only sees $$ for revenue, but the neighbors have to live with the changes.  NIMBY is OK til it hits the decision-makers' neighborhoods. Then the story changes.  If there are guidelines set down for use then they should be enforced.  Fine the companies and generate income for the taxpayers in this way also.  Truck traffic where it does not belong, noise nuisances, these can be cited and the city can collect from the businesses.  Let
s be fair about enforcement.  Brookside is REALLY not an entertainment district. It is a residential community with small businesses.  Letting all these big companies in will kill small business. The BBA should be looking out for it's neighbors as well, rather than encouraging all the influx of business, regardless of their reputations, size and homebase locations.  Why can't we be more choosy?  Protecting something that works and is good is more important then 'anything goes'!!!

They only have two.

The third will be the giant store along I-44.

What giant store?  They have no plans to build it if you're talking about the old Camelot hotel.  They've been shopping that property for a while now.  You might want to read up a little on the subject.

Not empty anymore. http://flyingburritoco.com/

Hate to say it, but while driving by the new QT expansion lately, have noticed that it looks and feels worse than I had actually feared it might.  Like someone ripped out the cozy feel of that part of Brookside and shoved in suburban sprawl.  Really sad.  :(   

I agree.  They can significantly improve that by planting trees along their Peoria frontage and continuing the streetscape.  That area would be better served by taking out the left turn lanes at 36th and having on-street parallel parking continue from Starbucks south past 36th down to where it starts again near 37th.  Having cars parked on the street and trees in front of QT could make it at least a little better.  

That Blockbuster and the BOK branch/offices by Crow Creek are the last properties on that strip north of 36th with a big parking lot out front.  Mecca has one but it's not very big or intrusive.  I don't think the BOK/office by Crow Creek are going anywhere anytime soon but I could see the Blockbuster property being redeveloped and a new building built up to the sidewalk.  It would be nice to see the Baptist church at the SE corner tear down its steel building on the south side of the church and instead build an expansion above a retail storefront along Peoria just north of 36th Pl.  As it is with the church and QT across the street that block of Brookside is a 'dead zone' for retail/pedestrians.

Even if they do build it, they could easily close the store just north of there.

I remember them touting that location as the spot they were going to build their 500th store.  Am I remembering that correctly?  I remember a pretty big to-do about it.

Yes, but they postponed due to the construction. Now store 500 was in BA. I-44 construction won't be done for years so it will probably be store 553 or something.

Got my first chance over the weekend to drive that stretch (I typically in the last year or so haven't been any further west than the 41st St exit going westbound).  Interesting how they divert the traffic onto the service road between Sheridan and Yale.  Wonder what the people in the neighborhood right there off Darlington think about that?

But it sure looks different along the south side of the highway between Harvard all the way to Peoria.  Even the north side looks barren, but they'd been working on that for more than two years, so I'd seen the ROW acquisitions there.

I have to admit, I defended QT adding in more pumps, but looking at it now it looks a little ridiculous.   I think in my head I was picturing a LITTLE bit of landscaping towards 36th Pl. but they are putting in 7 rows of pumps all the way across.

Street trees will help, and no not just one or two like they have put in the planters north of 36th.  More like 5-6 along Peoria and some along 36th and 36th Pl.  It still would've been cool to see a QT front the sidewalk here with the pumps behind...

That makes it more difficult though, because the likelihood of them having to move the tanks if they moved the pumps would mean the store for a time couldn't pump gas.  That doesn't draw in customers.

That new shop is rediculous.  It's an absolute gap in Brookside.  No amount of landscaping will make that walk comfortable.  

Of course, I guess it's all relative too.  I've heard some say that people generally don't walk in Tulsa and so any sort of provision for the few unfortunate pedestrians is a 'good' thing even if the sidewalk is hemmed in by cars and crossing over multiple points of vehicular conflict.  

It's frustrating for me what passes for walkable in Tulsa.

I was there last night.  Parallel parking along their Peoria frontage and a small landscaped buffer with trees will help a lot.  There are 4 entrances into the QT, two off Peoria itself, one off 36th Pl. and one off 36th St.  They added sidewalks along 35th Pl., a nice gesture but they stop at QT's property line.  The lack of sidewalks on the neighborhood streets is one of the main downsides to the Brookside area.  Sidewalks are present along 36th from Utica to Peoria and then abruptly end, it would be nice for the neighborhood to have them continue past QT a half mile west to Riverside to connect to the river trails.

A retail storefront just south of the church across the street would go a long way to improving the pedestrian experience at 36th.  Like I said if the Blockbuster site is redeveloped that could be where Blockbuster moves with the displaced church classrooms above the store and parking in the big lot behind.  That and parallel parking on both sides of the street, the elimination of the left turn lane, and the planting of street trees like they have done from 35th Pl. to 33rd St.

Does the Brookside infill plan have any weight or is it just a guideline?  

Just a guide.  It's got relatively no influence on how a private property is developed; unless something is developed through a PUD.  The zoning dictates; hence gas station with lots of canopy and pumps, various curb cuts, large quantities of parking, and big setbacks in a CH district.  No 'urban' requirements.  The plan could have been (and still could be) implemented through the zoning code or a new code like the form based code the Pearl District is hoping to establish.

Brookside needs a form-based code.  Though private developers have, for the most part, done a good job of building up to the sidewalk with large windows and outdoor patios and all parking behind.  It is one of the few places in Tulsa where this has occured all in one area with new construction, and where the pedestrian experience has actually been significantly enhanced in the past decade.  The parking requirements could be eased though which would be a part of the form-based code. 

Why would Blockbuster move?  Their business model is stuck in 1990.   The question is how long until the whole chain goes belly up.

That Blockbuster seems to stay pretty busy, and as someone who doesn't do Netflix or watch movies online I go there occasionally.  You're right though that if that property is bought and redeveloped it's probably the end to Blockbuster in Brookside. 

There is a redbox at the kum-n-go and two at the neighborhood market. Save yourself $4.

You mean K & G actually still exists around here?  How many of their original stores that were old Git N Gos are left?

Out south they've built all new stores all over the place. They have something like 30 stores in the Tulsa area.

Ah...you Southies can keep 'em.  I'll stick to QT.

 ;D

No no, don't get me wrong, even the new Kum and Go stores suck, they just still exist. QT is building two new stores within two miles of my house, I hope at least one of them is the new format.

Nope, they're building all that they're going to build right now:

51st/129th
Hwy 412 and Gilcrease Musuem Rd.
15th and Denver

And for the life of me, can't figure out why they're building one in Independence, MO...

Just four to start with.

If anything, the best place for them to try the new format would be in a completely new market.   My main issue with the new format is that stuff is in different places now.   As a Tulsan, you walk into any QuikTrip and without even looking around you, proceed straight to the item you wish to grab and purchase.  You walk into the new format and it's like "hey, I have to search this place to find what I want" - Definitely a different experience for a Tulsan QT Zombie.

I wasn't aware any had closed.

You don't live out south, do you Scott?  There are several that I can think of.

61st/Memorial
16th/Memorial (I know this one because I used to live in the apartments behind that strip center, when it didn't feel like a war zone -- this was in the mid to late nineties).
Pine between Memorial and Sheridan.
Admiral just west of Memorial (maybe indy before K&G took over G&G)
11th & Mingo.
36th & Yale?  (not sure if it was a K&G before it was indy)
Sheridan at Indepedence

Maybe more?

I don’t think any of those were Kum and Go stores. Not all Git N Go stores became Kum and Go. A bunch of stores just closed or became random slum-marts, some were bought by Quick Trip and demolished, some became Fiesta Marts and some became Kum and Go. I don’t think any that became Fiesta Marts or Kum and Go have closed, I think they only took the most viable stores (except for the ones that QT bought and killed to protect their own stores).

Know for a fact the one at 16th/Memorial was.  I went there every day and still have a Kum & Go refillable cup I bought from there.  What doomed them at that location was one gas pump.  I'm surprised Git N Go lasted as long as they did right there.  Pretty sure the one at 11th and Mingo was too.  The others I have a vague recollection of.