The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

And that would leave a great site for about 30 or so Tuscan villas all jammed together right there on Peoria.  Oh joy!!!

Seriously, I think this would be a great development for downtown and could be a cornerstone of more good things to come for the east end.

Glad you posted this. 

I like the idea very much . . . though, as a guy who uses the 7th St. offramp, having much more congestion in that area gives me heart palpitations. 

Not much usage of All Souls during the week. Won't bother daily traffic much. I will miss their signs on Peoria.

Is it wise to put so many progressive liberal types easily accessible all in one location downtown?

Enough Churches Downtown....

Agree.  But a church is slightly better than an empty lot, even if it doesn't generate any property tax.   ;)

It will be interesting to see what their site plans look like i.e. orientation of building, surrounding parking, etc.  It will also be interesting to see who ends up buying the existing church on Peoria.  It is a beautiful piece of property in a great neighborhood location.

I don't like this move to downtown.  While I think the existing downtown churches add to the the architecture and beauty of downtown, I don't think more churches is the best use of the space.  Something may be better than nothing on a currently empty lot in the short run, but I don't think more churces (or the exapansion of the existing churches) is really going to bring the long-term development we hope to see in this area.  Indeed, it can limit the other types of developments that can occur around these locations.

However, given that congregants have an option to purchase the land, it really doesn't much matter what I think.

This is a church that has activities many nights a week. Tonight they have a free concert put on by Jacob Fred Jazz Oddessy. They also have concerts with great artists on some Fridays. The church also hosts great events like a lecture and program by TulsaWorld cartoonist later this month.

They have activities this week every night that include everything from pilates and yoga to classes on eastern religions. I have been to many a political discussion at this church.

They want to build on an empty lot tucked into east downtown up against the highway. They will bring new life to a vacant part of downtown. How can anyone not think this is a good thing?

Based on it's location between two main entry points into downtown, I'm more concerned with aesthetics than contents.

Yeah, those empty lots just scream, "Welcome to Tulsa".
 

And parking lots

Currently they don't, but given the $$$ being spent on "gateway projects" (including right next to this spot on both sides) I don't want a tin building.

Well, I wouldn't be able to build a strip club or liquor store next door.

Ok so, at least that area is already surrounded by parking.  Anything they knock down will be minimal.  I know I'm being cynical but look at BAUMC FUMC FBS and even trinity (they knocked down a parking garage to build surface parking).  At least the touchy feely unitarians might listen to reason.

You really think All Souls is going to build a tin building?

My three year's experience in church building tells me it will be an EIFS-clad metal building.  Or be some sort of mix of custom and pre-engineered building like Asbury UMC.  I'm sure their business plan includes being twice as big as they are now.  The inexpensive cost of pre-engineered metal buildings will be tough to beat for new construction. 

All Souls has money.  I imagine it will be a very nice building.  Just curious to see their site plan.  Will the main entrance face 6th with most parking across the street to the north (next to the Nordam property)?  Improving the connection between downtown and the Pearl is a big deal and this contributes to improving that connection on the main corridor, 6th Street, especially if the main entrance is on 6th, the sidewalks are improved, and some trees are planted.  There is plenty of room for expansion if they want to add more space across Frankfort to the west for a school, or yoga studio, or whatever..

That makes me a happy panda!  I have to say if they wer a bit like first pres and invested the money into some really community outreach options. that would be most definitly bitchin'!

All Souls, more than most churches, is a community center with all sorts of outreach programs and events.  They are one of the most active churches in the city.  You could build a community around such a church, especially if they have a day school (which could also serve the nearby Pearl), gymnasium, community garden, etc.  There is a school at the current Brookside location, is it operated by the church?  Would it move as well? 

I do wonder what church would take its place in Maple Ridge..

Many congregations face east during their faith services.

I don't know why it wouldn't.  Channing Day School (Montessori program) has been there for well over 40 years. 

I'm a CDS alumni  ;)

This sounds exciting. Hopefully they build a quality structure like First Pres. and don't add any surface parking. A church can help start a community, as long as it does not demand that community be parking.

Let's just draw a district line around them and call it the Church District....no mosques and synagogues?

The Units might need a $30 mill donor like First Pres has....

i am to assume this is the origin of your political indoctrination? ::)

Could explain my liberal tendencies on social issues.  It's just pure selfishness that makes me a fiscal conservative.

Hey, at least he's not a jackass about it like some others I could name. I like to think several years of Montessori with some nuns in Fort Smith contributed to my not being a total jackass.

Considering this area of downtown has been the subject of many conversations on future development, is anyone familiar enough with Tulsa zoning restrictions, etc... to explain what is not allowed to be built/housed near (how near?) a church?

Strip clubs
liquor stores
bars (restaurants with a bar are fine)

Damn, there go all my business opportunities...

 ;D

Will they be on the park that Land Legacy is working on?

The church would be part of that project and sit at the end of the park.

The church voted to move downtown.  It will be interesting to see what their plans are once they develop.  I've heard the church will be on the Randolph Fields site but that other facilities like the school and community center will be on the empty lots around 6th & Frankfurt.  This could really help out that forlorn section of east downtown, especially once the Land Legacy park is finished.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=18&articleid=20111122_18_A9_CUTLIN749148 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=18&articleid=20111122_18_A9_CUTLIN749148)

HAHAHAHA you think that is going to HAPPEN!  I've got a property being renovated by Sager, do you want to lease a condo?

Watch for it.  All souls will be yet enouther source of parking lots.  They will knock down the nordam buidings for parking and not think twice.  The will will also with there closeness keep Blake from building his movie theater on the site he has in mind at moment.  DOOM! DOOM! 

Ok fine, I'll quit playing around on the internet.

I suggested Holy Family on 15th trade for Wilson TPS last week to add parking lots along Cherry Street.

Today I will recommend the Church behind Keo/Blue Moon move down to All Souls and save Brookside from the NIMBYs ....

Wheeee....more parking lots on Peoria for drunks! :D

???

I had to reboot after reading that...

I'm pretty unexcited about converting more downtown real estate to tax exempt church owned property.  In my opinion, the best interests of most congregations are not the best interests of downtown development.

Yeah, but where would Rome be without the Vatican??  This could work....

This will help revitalize downtown!!!

(for one hour a week)

This is an unimproved grassy lot that hasn't been in play before. They will build a beautiful building and bring people downtown all day Sunday and multiple nights a week. They have a large, wealthy congregation that will look for places to eat after services. They are going create many jobs to build the $16 million church.

Yet, on TulsaNow, you guys act as if they are stealing food out of your baby's mouth. They won't tear down any Nordam buildings, There wasn't any strip clubs wanting to move into the area, and they are taking out ultra low value property out of tax rolls. Nothing has happened within two blocks of their site for two decades.

Why don't we embrace downtown investment rather than always finding fault?

Perhaps once there is more of a "critical mass" of restaurants/shopping and such downtown, some of these church people will indeed begin to stay around for a bit on Sunday.  Was heading to the "Deco District" this last Sunday to work on the museum and noticed the streets to the south of the churches, after they finished their services and let out, were backed up with cars heading out of downtown.  Yet the streets just north of the churches, towards the restaurants and such, were dead as a doornail.  Mods by us was closed, and you could have heard a cricket chirping everywhere else nearby.  I couldn't help but think, "Wouldn't it be great if there was a church right next door or nearby so that when they let out they would go by the Tulsa Art Deco Museum or the other places by us.  So again, perhaps if there is more stuff they will tend to stay and visit? Or perhaps they won't.  I don't know.

In defense of the churchgoers, downtown is pretty pathetic on Sundays. Unless they're looking to go get tanked, there's not too many places that are open on Sundays to eat (another reason I wouldn't mind more chains. they'd likely have better hours than a lot of local businesses).

Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing. Though the current downtown businesses haven't shown much initiative in terms of expanding hours. There are a dozen instances of shorter business hours for every place that's expanded their hours the past year or three.

Does the public realize the Units are atheists? I'm not sure they know what they are.... ;)

And don't give me any agnosticating....

You are wrong. Some Unitarians are, but most are not. From wikipedia...

Unitarian Universalism is a religion characterized by support for a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning".[1] Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed; rather, they are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth and by the understanding that an individual's theology is a result of that search and not obedience to an authoritarian requirement. Unitarian Universalists draw on many different theological sources and have a wide range of beliefs and practices.
 
Historically, both Unitarianism and Universalism have roots in the Christian faith. Contemporary Unitarian Universalists espouse a pluralist approach to religion, whereby the followers may be atheist, deist, theist, polytheist, or have no label at all.

Oh, whatever.... philosophically, Wiki don't count.

You really shouldn't speak of other's faith when you don't know what you are talking about. The Unitarian congregation has many who carry bibles and the sermons often talk of Jesus and God. There are many Catholics who feel that they can't go to their church because they got divorced or Baptists who feel they aren't as welcome in their church because they are gay. There are many atheists and many agnostics as well.

Many of Reverend Carlton Pearson's congregation joined All Souls after he preached about Universalism. He believed that we are all universally saved and God is too good to damn them just because they didn't profess their lives to his Son. Many of his congregation left him and many of them joined All Souls.

All Souls is a church that just accepts everybody without demanding they profess to a certain religious credd.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isiVn2Dnv78[/youtube]
Yeah yeah yeah....love you Mr. America!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=momdjeHgBy4[/youtube]
does Dawg speak to you?

I think you are kind of missing the real point behind all the negative commentary.  And first, let me just say that I like a lot of what I read the Unitarians are all about - it seems I remember reading somewhere that one of their points is they are the Church OF Jesus Christ rather than the Church ABOUT Jesus Christ.  (I like that comment a lot and of all the churches I have attended, only the Salvation Army seems to be walking the walk, getting close to that ideal - and no, I haven't been to All Souls yet.)

Anyway - the back story, or what is being said behind the words you get to hear is;
"There are already a bunch of churches downtown, so we really don't need any more taking up room that we can put a bar or restaurant on, and they really aren't a church anyway - more of a half baked religion like the Cargo Cult or Mormonism."

There is certainly more than one or two points involved here. You can't blame a church for wanting to be near where the young, impressionable, wealth producing, disposable income owning, active, people are congregating. These are the folks who will operate their future. Whether you like their religious orientation or not, downtown is a great "farming" area for them. 

They also benefit from not having to deal with traffic problems that suburban churches face. All Souls is wise to consider trading in a high $sq ft property for a lower $sq ft property that allows them growth opportunities as well.

Too bad about the fact that another potential tax producing property becomes exempt, but it was exempt in Brookside as well and considering some business will shift to the downtown area is certainly better than nothing.

You are not the expert on what a church is.

You have just insulted my faith and thus insulted part of who I am. You have also changed my opinion of you forever.

I find this very interesting. Several people complained when the FDR building was demolished that the building should be repurposed to help develop downtown. It was discussed here that the building was not structurally sound, and so many whined that it will sit as a dead spot for years. Now the people who own the land gifted it to their church to build on using church funds to do so, and people are whining that this is not what they want there. This is just so typical of people in Tulsa to want something, and then when something is being done they b!tch about it because it's not what they want. Just seems typical of Tulsans.

You got that right. We have to have two Christmas Parades, one for real Christians and one for Christians who aren't so intolerant along with everyone else who simply enjoys the holiday! :)

?????
There was no insult there - it was a 'sample' statement of the thoughts going on in the minds of those you were saying were complaining that the Unitarians were trying to take food out of children's mouths.  How did you read that otherwise??

If you are Unitarian - well, I certainly did not slam them.  I specifically mentioned several things I like about them.

If you are Mormon and think that was a slam - please read it again - the part you quoted.  It is NOT an insult.  It is an expression of what so many in this country think of Mormonism.  Like the ones who support Rick Perry and the way they talk about it when disparaging Romney...  And those are NOT my personal feelings about it.

If you are member of the Cargo Cult, well I think we need better education in the public schools - more exposure to technology.

Or were you just kidding?  Hard to tell with so little inflection in type.

I don't much care about the theology of All Souls, my concern is downtown development.  While in the short term this will turn vacant land into something, I don't think it is in the long-term best interest of downtown to have more churches.  That's not because I'm opposed to churches, I just don't think they have sufficient 7 day a week use to help create a thriving and vibrant neighborhood.  While All Souls may have some additional events (do they still have the concert series?) that are not on Sunday mornings or Wednesday nights, there is still a lot of empty time during the week. 

I'm not "opposed" to this development, but it doesn't make me excited and I do not think it will have much spill over effect in the area around it.

What if All Souls were to develop a multi-story housing project on their site, overlooking the Land Legacy park, for their aging parishioners to inhabit?

Would that make you feel better about the project?

As obnoxiously-wishy-washy, hippy-dippy, white-liberal-guilt-having as All Souls can be, I think that unlike other chrches downtown grow by destroying buildings and turnign them into parking lots, and All Souls will probs not do the same.  We don't need another building destroyed so that First bab-dist can have a suburban style porte cachee.  I think All Souls will be far more likely to do something like first presb. and develop a church campus that is compatable with an urban environment.

Now if we can just convince First bab-dist, Trinity, FUMC, BAUMC, Holy Family, and the 2-3 others I can't of off the top of my head, to develop beyond parking lots.

That would be better than just a church, but a senior living center doesn't scream vibrant urban development to me. 

I found an interesting article on developing a "vibrant" urban area http://www.worldscibooks.com/etextbook/7398/7398_chap01.pdf (http://www.worldscibooks.com/etextbook/7398/7398_chap01.pdf), and in reading the article I notice that some of the references for this date back 20 to 30 years, which goes back to a time when no one gave a rat's donkey about downtown. Most cities started their redevolpment in the 80's like Kansas City, Dallas, Phoenix, and several others, meanwhile no one in Tulsa gave a damn. So as I have said before, Tulsa is behind the curve, and all this whining about the churches in downtown is part and parcel to the fact that Oklahoma is under the buckle of the bible belt, always has and always will be. I would rather have All Souls develop the site than to let it sit empty. With them developing it you will get more people, even if it's only two days a week, that are downtown that might not normally go. And those people may decide to go eat some where there after services, and as mor shopping and other businesses develop, you will get more people doing things downtown.



(off of my soap box now)

Is there a religion that you don't want to offend?  Just because someone professes a certain faith doesn't mean they can't be supportive of good development.

IMO, Tulsa is lucky to still have a vibrant religious community downtown.  In many cities the downtown churches are boarded up and left for the suburbs during "White-Flight".

If you told me 10 years ago All Souls (or any church) was going to build downtown, I would have been excited that someone believed in Tulsa's downtown future enough to make an investment.  The fact that this does not seem so great to me now is more a reflection of how far we've come, even though we've got a long way to go.  Tulsa sat on its hands while cities like Dallas and KC began to renew their downtowns, but that does not mean we should be thrilled like a shy and insecure child just because somebody gave us a little attention.

In the article you cited it says key elements for urban liveability are: attractive public spaces; walkable; mixed use; higher density; affordable housing; and vibrant, exciting, sociable human-scaled pedestrian experience.  It also described the need to have streets and sidewalks in constant use.  I don't see a church adding much to any of those factors for downtown Tulsa and that is why I don't think it is a best use for the space.

As to the "sitting empty" argument - yes, I would rather see that spot sit empty a few more years and get a great use than one that is only so so.  All of the downtown development I hope to see cannot and will not happen instantaneously.  

In the end, of course, doesn't matter what my opinon on this matter is as All Souls apparently has the money and inclination to build downtown.  I hope they do a great job.

Here is a link to the calendar at All Souls

https://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/allsoulschurch.org/embed?src=allsoulschurch.org_cjsdlkjdmufkb0d8kpupkevmb8@group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Chicago+&gsessionid=OK

This church has seven days a week and seven nights a week stuff happening.

I really don't see a negative to All Souls moving downtown.  As we try and make our urban core more livable and walkable, one additional gem becomes a convenient place to worship.  As RM said, All Souls has programs going on 7 nights a week which will bring people into downtown.  That may be the final deciding factor in someone wanting to buy a $200,000 loft condo, or rent a unit at the Mayo or Philtower.  That also brings people looking for something to eat or drink before or after an activity there as well as even more people for after church activities on Sundays.

I honestly don't see how an additional church, especially with a more progressive leaning can be a bad thing for downtown.  There's a lot of fallow land down there waiting for development.  If the land All Souls wants isn't already under contract, it could sit empty for years.  Instead, it may well inspire additional development around the area by taking the first step.  I'd be far more concerned as to the type of development which will happen on the present church site if they move than what they will do with their site in downtown.

I would like to put a medium size manufacturing facility there.  But that ain't gonna happen...

That place is hopping!  What happens after January 1?  No more schedule shown....

Until recently there was a building on that lot that would have been perfect for that kind of use. It sat empty for decades.

Well I think they all are pretty strange.  

+1

Equal Opportunity Abuser.

Probably wanted a ton of money for it just for the land value.  I will just have to move to Nowata, I guess.

Finding something strange doesn't amount to abuse. 

You mean God works 24/7 ?

I thought God took off on the 7th day.  That would leave 24/6.   This also assumes your 24 is hours and 7 is days per week.   It could be 24 hour/week and 6 weeks per year.   ;D

Where this is planned I don't see it hurting downtown. If its licensing for future developments we fear maybe we should change our laws (liquor) and allow flexibility in urban areas. I like this move, it frees up good space and takes over land that would otherwise see no development for a few decades. Win-win

The UU church is really progressive.  Maybe they could apply for waivers for liquor stores, strip clubs and whorehouses within a 500 ft. radius. ;)

  I think its symptomatic of the cultural problems in this state when there could even be the notion of equating a liquor store with a whore house or strip club.  Not to pick on Conan here one bit, but I hear similar comments on a regular basis.  One of the things that irks me is when I suggest going out to dinner and having a drink, or even mention having a drink some comment from someone always pops up showing that automatically in their mind drinking equals over drinking, or getting drunk, buzzed, wasted, etc.  Thats not the case with all people, families, countries and cultures.  Recently read an article where the French are lamenting the horrible habit of binge drinking that is starting to rear its head there with their youth, they blame it on the British lol.  Having a glass of wine is traditionally no different than having a cup of coffee.  A liquor store no different than say a coffee store. 

  Its telling that about TEN TIMES more people in this state are killed each year from food related causes (again its our culture, not the foods fault) versus alchohol related causes, yet we are not banning food as some sinful item that cant be sold on a Sunday or within 500 feet of a church or that we don't want our children to see in a store. 

  Rather than create a culture in which we eat and drink responsibly and healthily (people who drink alchohol in a healthy manner live longer healthier lives than those who do not drink it at all), we cultivate a culture that does just the opposite.  In the case of alchohol, we actually enshrine and enforce in law unhealthy ways of looking at and thinking about alchohol.   

Was listening to something on the radio a while back about a Canadian college that has free beer and wine out for its newly enrolling students and how alchohol is served in the cafeteria and can be had on campus.  One of the professors mentioned how he can always tell a US student by how they act compared to the Canadian students.  The US students will often act suprised and go wacko, over-drink, act tupid, etc. but then with time they "acclimate" to the idea and begin to drink alchohol more normally like the Canadian students whose families often drink alchohol with meals and to whom alchohol is no big deal, just an every day thing.   

  Now of course there are people who have addiction problems, sometimes with genetic propensities.  And yes, the same can be said for food as well. But regardless, rather than create a culture that looks out for that percentage of people and creates ways of helping them, we act as if it's a problem for everyone, its bad and sinful for everyone. Or worse yet we create a culture in which even the average person considers alchohol something to be abused or drunk in an unhealthy fashion.  Course we do that with food and sodas in this state so I suppose what else could we expect?

  The culture needs to change.  The change starts with you and me, our habits, and how we talk about and relate to food and alchohol. 

  I often hear on here about how lame our liquor laws are, but the sad thing to me is that I often don't hear a corresponding "attitude" change as well.  Imho it's going to be hard to be convincing otherwise.

Here! Here!  I'll drink to that!

It is not just the state, or the culture of the state or even the time period. America is a country that was founded by some pretty hard rock, Calvinist, tee totalers. Oklahoma's first legislators were strongly Baptist, from what I've read, and meant to keep our state a safe, sober, labor friendly environment. They had lived through the period of the late 19th century with its unregulated drugs in the form of patent medicines, laudenum, cocaine, opium and alcohol. Ironically, it backfired.

Enjoy your enlightened, adult view of drinking that Canadians and Europeans share. Your lobbying efforts to extend that enlightenment will surely face stiff opposition. ;)

Kudos to All Souls:

Tulsa Church Donates Offering To Greenwood Cultural Center

http://www.newson6.com/story/17111729/tulsa-church-donates-offering-to-greenwood-cultural-center?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.newson6.com/story/17111729/tulsa-church-donates-offering-to-greenwood-cultural-center?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

I was there that Sunday and pitched in a few dollars. All Souls organized a civil rights march in the 1960s in Tulsa when I was a kid going to Sunday School there.

I remember when that happened.  Had recently moved back from the frozen north - '65 or '66.  Was too young to participate, but seems like it was on TV. 

Memory - wish I had one.

I realize this is old but did the church decide to stay on Peoria or are they still planning a move to 6th & Frankfort downtown? 

The church voted to move, but there has been no movement as of yet.

Does anyone know what the plan is for the All Souls Church building and its grounds? 

Also, when are they planning on building their new building?

The original plan, which could've changed, was to build a new church building on the vacant lot between 6th and 7th, Frankfort and Kenosha.  There was speculation the half block parking lot along Frankfort is also included and would be a building for community groups.  Parking would be in existing lots to the north and on the surrounding streets.  Someone also mentioned a small urban park/garden was also part of the original plan.  I hadn't heard anything in awhile and wondered if they were still moving or just taking their time/fundraising.

Does anyone know what would be the plan for the current Peoria All Souls Church site?

Does anyone have an update on whether the church is still moving downtown? With all the Nelson Stowe focus on "East Village," I had almost forgot about this possibility.

I've been wondering this myself. They are not the owner according to the County Assessor.

Owner name: TRI-MC PINEHURST LLC

^ is the registered owner, they also own the parking lot directly to the northwest too between Elgin|Frankfurt & 6th|5th.

TRI-MC PINEHURST, is registered to the address of McElroy Manufacturing at Independence & Fulton (just north of I-244 & Yale). So maybe they never closed on the land, or maybe they have an agreement to buy the land from them once the church raises the $$... who knows.

I go to church there but not very regularly so I don't know even what's going on. I haven't heard anything in a long time.

I do know Chip McElroy's family bought the land for the church, they are members.

I was told this weekend the McElroy's will donate the land.  The church is still raising money, but it will likely be into next year before they break ground.  It is a longer team play than maybe originally thought.

With the talk about an adjacent lot getting redeveloped (Jackson Technical) I wondered what the current status of All Souls moving downtown?  That vacant lot on 6th is such an eyesore.