The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Posted on News 6 this evening.

Tulsa Police Chief Talks About Cuts
Posted: Dec 28, 2009 5:44 PM CST
Updated: Dec 28, 2009 6:26 PM CST

By Lori Fullbright, The News On 6

Tulsa, OK -- With our economy in crisis, Tulsa police wait to find out how many officers could be laid off next week.

It could range from 56 to 135, depending on the city's sales tax numbers.

The News On 6 sat down for a one-on-one interview with Police Chief Ron Palmer today to talk about the budget crisis.

He told The News On 6 he presented options to the mayor and city council that would mean no lay-offs at all.

"These are the most difficult times I've ever seen," Palmer said.

The Mayor recently asked Chief Ron Palmer for two budget estimates, one that cuts 2.2% from the police budget.

The chief says that equaled 56 officers being laid off along with a half million in other cuts, like firing non- officers, cutting back on fuel and freezing open positions.

The second scenario was a 4.4% budget cut.

That would mean laying off 135 officers along with the same half million in cuts.

The chief also sent the mayor something else, suggestions for finding money elsewhere that would mean no layoffs.

"We wanted to bring to their attention there are other options they can explore before they sign the dotted line and police officers go out the door and we have layoffs," Palmer said.

They include taking $3 million designated to buy police cars and use it for salaries and selling the older of the two police choppers for around a million dollars and using that for salaries both of those would require a vote of the people.

Palmer believes citizens would vote yes.

"I think the bottom line is we'll rely on the citizens of Tulsa to determine how much money is spent on public safety," Palmer said.

He also suggested they take federal grant money that was set aside for keeping guns off the streets and cleaning up meth houses and asking the feds to let them use that for salaries.

Those ideas, along with the union's recent decision to give up take home police cars and change the way they pay overtime would save jobs.

The union also says the city's trash to energy fund has $11 million in it, which could prevent all lay-offs, not just police and fire.

If the mayor and council choose lay-offs and if it's the worst case scenario of 135 officers, that's 17% of the police force.

Chief Palmer says basic police service would remain, you call 911, you get a cop and homicides would still be investigated but many other services could disappear. No more officers working undercover drug cases, investigating hit-and-runs, car thefts or burglaries.

You can read Chief Palmer's budget cuts proposals below. The proposal to save all officer jobs is in the final four items under the mitigate force reduction line in bold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are cuts common to both the 2.2% reduction (Approx $1.7+ M) and the

4.4% reduction (Approx $3.4+ M) - They are listed below:

Proposed Reduction Account Type Approx. Reduction

Further Reduce Office Supplies + Non-Cap Equip Material and Supplies $11.7 K

Further Reduce Printing/Reproduction Services and Charges $20.2 K

Reduce Police Recruiting Budget " $11.5 K

Reduce Motor Fuels " $11.0 K

Refund From Helicopter Liability Insurance " $35.2 K

Helicopter Building Lease reduction " $25.0 K

Freeze Internal Affairs Vacant Position (Civilian) Personal Services $42.0 K

Freeze Vacant Police Sgt. Position " $72.5 K

Freeze three (3) Vacant Office Assistant Positions (Civ) " $63.3 K

Freeze one(1) Vacant Office Admin Position (Civ) " $33.6 K

Layoff six (6) retired officer hire backs " $62.0 K

Layoff one (1) CALEA accreditation Mgr. (Civ) " $32.5 K

Layoff three (3) Office Assistants (Civ) " $54.3 K

Layoff three (3) OT 18 Office Administrators (Civ) " $34.1 K

Layoff one (1) OT 16 Office Administrator (Civ) " $14.1 K

Estimated Fuel Savings Services and Charges $13.7 K

To get to the desired savings requested, then we had to look at laying off police officers as outlined below:

To meet the 2.2% - 56 police officers at a cost of $1,209.530 were included in addition to above for a total of $1,746,759

To meet the 4.4% - 135 police officers at a cost of $2,923,563 were included in addition to above for a total of $3,460,792

Our recommendations to "Mitigate Force Reduction" included:

1. Use 3rd Penny sales tax unexpended money earmarked for police vehicles in FY 10 by a "Brown Ordinance" amendment to be transferred to use in salary accounts. A Tedious, public approval process, but do-able. $3M dollars currently available.

2. Sell the older (2003 purchase) of the police helicopters, again use a Brown Ordinance amendment to transfer the sale of the capital item to salary accounts. Estimated value of this copter is $1.1M to $1.3 M.

3. Divert current JAG/Byrne monies already in had designated to other police projects to salary accounts for a short term, fix to the immediacy of needed cash infusion to avoid further lay-offs. This option would require we re-apply to the Fed for the purpose of re-defining use. We were in the process of using this money to rehire the 3 remaining officers laid off previously when instructed to submit further cuts, so we know this reapplication is also do-able. The down side is that officers must be laid off, prior to approval to use the money for hiring.

4. The favorable consideration of the MOU's presented by the FOP relating to concessions relating to take-home cars outside the city limits, minimum staffing levels, and the use of e-time. Roughly estimated at approximately combined total of $600K+

Ron Palmer

First, I have a huge problem with Palmer and the FOP Union eyeing the $11 million that TARE has in its reserves.  Those reserves were created through the overbilling of Tulsa citizens for years of trash service charges.  They are currently used to subsidize Tulsa's trash service and use of those funds would necessitate an increase in utility charges to cover that subsidy.  Additionally, it would allow the FOP to continue forcibly negotiating a city into living outside its means if millions of dollars were suddenly made available.

I do agree with Palmer's recommendation to curtail capital spending on new vehicles in lieu of retaining officers.  I think Tulsa's would vote for such a change.

I also think Palmer's idea of selling the older of the two helicopters is good, however, I think Bartlett has already been trying that one and its been reported that they are not having the best of luck selling in a depressed market economy.

I liked this little known line item in Palmer's recommendations which seems to support many a person's argument on police salary:

Freeze Vacant Police Sgt. Position $72.5k

...what?!  $72.5k?????  How many times have we heard officer's report here or on Tulsa World that no one makes that much in the rank and file?

I don't think Sgt qualifies as "rank and file" that's management. 

Please tell me if this is true or not. I was told this by a friend and wondered if it was true. He said that with the $3 that was added to the water bills to pay for EMSA, EMSA has accrued upwards of $5 million surplus. OKC, which doesn't have the tax and, has some of their EMSA coverage paid for from the Tulsa surplus. is that correct?

'Rank and file' is simply semantics.  These positions are promoted from within the department.  According to the Tulsa World City Employee database, the following positions classified as other than 'police officer' are:

LARSEN, DENNIS L POLICE DEPUTY CHIEF FOP $104,285.76
WEBSTER, ALVIN D POLICE DEPUTY CHIEF FOP $104,285.76
MCCRORY, MARK D POLICE DEPUTY CHIEF FOP $110,626.32
PALMER, RONALD CHIEF OF POLICE $165,000.00  
SMITH JR, GEORGE E POLICE INFO RESOUR MANAGE $97,053.84

There are 7 ranked as POLICE MAJOR $93,617.76
There are 2 ranked as POLICE MAJOR $88,252.08
There are 23 ranked as POLICE CAPTAIN $82,235.28
There are 2 ranked as POLICE CAPTAIN $77,521.92
There are 62 ranked as POLICE SERGEANT $71,002.32
HANNON, LORI R POLICE & FIRE TESTING COO $68,930.64
There are 64 ranked as POLICE CORPORAL $67,621.20
There are 5 ranked as POLICE SERGEANT $66,932.88
There are 15 ranked as POLICE SERGEANT $64,358.40
There are 4 ranked as POLICE CORPORAL $61,467.36

Essentially 500 or 61.8% out of the assumed force of 808 sworn officers make over $60,954.96/year.  

Good work DowntownNow.

I have heard that many officers make up to 20% more each year with overtime. I never see press coverage of overtime pay.

one of KT's requests to the FOP was to require 5 day notice for vacation time. Supposedly it would've reduced the majority of the money spent on overtime.

So, what's the implication here? That we should not promote officers and have pay grades based on years of service, merit, and the need for a management infrastructure in a department with 700 to 800 employees?  I have no idea how many corporals, sergeants, captains, and majors we truly need.  However, if you take out advancement opportunities that takes out a lot of recruiting incentive for high-quality candidates who will go to another department in another city. 

If many of these titles are ceremonial and we have an overage of desk jockeys who don't have enough work to fill their day at a time when we have high crime rates then there is a problem and we might need to look into returning some of the desk jockeys to the field, at least as part of their duties if there is not a need for that much administrative help at a time when it appears we need more officers on patrol.

I am disturbed that all the police keep saying is to find money for "more salaries". Everything is about "more salaries".

...They include taking $3 million designated to buy police cars and use it for salaries...

...Sell the older (2003 purchase) of the police helicopters, again use a Brown Ordinance amendment to transfer the sale of the capital item to salary accounts.

He also suggested they take federal grant money that was set aside for keeping guns off the streets and cleaning up meth houses and asking the feds to let them use that for salaries.

Even take money from other departments...

Thank you Michael.  And that is precisely my point.  The FOP and the Fire Unions continually utilize fear tactics to appeal to the Tulsa citizen, pressuring them to provide more and more.  For years, taxes were supposed to go for increased personnel...instead those monies went to increases in salaries and benefits for existing personnel. 

Unfortunately, Tulsa is now finding out what many have said was going to happen...the overhead can not be supported by the revenues, our departments live outside their means when it comes to salaries and benefits to the detriment of other city department and services. 

While I believe there needs to be some advancement opportunities within any organization...continued advancement simply based on years of service with little regard to budget is the wrong way to go about it.  In the private sector, companies would go out of business with this model.  In the private sector, there are caps to advancement and position in order to maintain control over salary and benefit costs. 

I hate to say it, but do those that are in the department 20+ years truly have that greater an understanding of the job than someone in there 5 years?  They each are to provide the same level of service.  Just because someone hits the 10 year mark why do they have to be promoted with a pay increase? 

At what point does the department say, we have only so many sargeant, corporal and major positions to fill until one is retired?  Until then, sorry, you are capped at X pay.  No position should be based on seniority but on merit...such a model promotes a better quality officer and that is a much greater benefit to the community.

"At what point does the department say, we have only so many sargeant, corporal and major positions to fill until one is retired?  Until then, sorry, you are capped at X pay.  No position should be based on seniority but on merit...such a model promotes a better quality officer and that is a much greater benefit to the community."

That is exactly what the police department does. According to the last personel email that came out, The police department has 3 deputy chiefs, 9 majors, 25 captains, 73 sergeants, 72 corporals and 626 officers.

The city of Tulsa sets the number of deputy chiefs, majors, captains, sergeants and corporals.  No one can promote to a higher rank until there is a vacancy.  Vacancies occur when someone of that rank is promoted to a higher rank, demoted, retire, quit or fired. The tests are highly competative.  Usually around 100-150 people test for sergeant and/or corporal each year.  Out of that 100-150 people that test, a list is made that ranks how everyone did.  That promotional list is good for one year.  There may only be one opening for that year so only one person off the list gets promoted or there may be 4 or 5. Some years no one is promoted. You never really know.  

There are promotional tests for sergeants and corporals usually happen every year. The tests for captains, majors and deputy chiefs are only when a position is opened up.  

No one on the Tulsa police department is promoted just because of senority.

Again, what other departments are coming under such close scruitiny though?  A common thread on this forum seems to be crappy police work, a crappy DA's office, and high crime that doesn't seem to ever make a measurable push downward.

We need to evaluate our priorities.  How many jobs in public works, IT, billing, purchasing, accounting, etc. could be eliminated through consolidation of duties?  Do we want pristine streets to drive on?  Do we want new ball parks, thriving river parks, arenas and convention centers designed to bring in revenue or do we want more protection from fire and crime?  Public safety and the others I mentioned seem to be mutually-exclusive issues.  Now with state budgets falling short, it's appearing more and more that the Tulsa delegation in OKC is running out of chances to bring in more funding for our city operations other than sales tax revenue.

Either we are going to have to pay more property tax, higher sales taxes, or simply cut from other departments if public safety is our highest priority. If it's not then fine, lay off officers and firemen and go on down the road.  I think the main reason these two departments get so much attention is because they are represented by unions.  To my knowledge, no other department in the city is unionized, is it?  Where's a performance audit of each department to determine waste and asking for cuts there as well?  Perhaps this is an opportune time to combine the SD with the PD much like it's done with other city/counties in the country.

A great number of the other city workers are represented by AFSCME.

And by all means, I would love to see Tulsa City-County combined as much as possible.

To me, cops are reactive; they don't prevent crime.  (Or their efforts at prevention are targeted at individuals who are already criminals.)  Sadly, in Tulsa and other cities, the departments that would have a long-term effect in reducing crime always take the first budget hit. 

Think about the Parks Department, for instance.  It always gets cut, as if all they do is mow grass and play games.

If Tulsa would expand Parks programming, there would be a lot more opportunities for at-risk young people (folks who haven't become criminals YET) to engage in activities that could help them develop skills, meet mentors, and discover a positive sense of self and community.  At a minimum, a thriving parks system would give young folks options: a safe place to go and spend their energies on sports, arts, educational and cultural activities...rather than hanging out in disruptive homes or unsupervised "on the streets."

Long-term, it will take more than an inflated Police budget to "solve" crime.  You've got to reach kids who are young enough to benefit from positive experiences and influences...to help them reach their potential and avoid succumbing to lousy life choices that lead to criminal behavior. 

I'd rather spend more money on Parks programing than overtime for cops.  It would benefit everyone, and, in the long run, it would be a lot cheaper.

Not to discount your assertion about the park budget at all as I think it's a valid point.  Volunteer organizations like Big Brothers Big Sisters are also effective prevention.  There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the time to put sweat equity into communities.

Beefed up patrols do act as a deterrent, so does neighborhood vigilance. 

Here is a website that has pictures of the Tulsa police officers and Tulsa firefighters that will be laid-off in January.  It just started and is being updated pretty regularly.

http://www.tpdphoto.smugmug.com/Police-and-Fire-Pictures/Tulsa-Police-and-Tulsa-Fire

Kind of reminds me of the pictures I see on Animal Planet for adopt a pet issues.

Except these "adapt a pet" pictures are of people that won't be there to save you or your family when you call 911.

Many of our non-governmental economist are predicting that this recession can increase before returning to pre-recession employment for as long as another decade and half.  In the great depression many people walked away from their homes and farms because the could not afford the taxes.  If we must reduce the bloated city salaries it is time for an across the board reduction in the city paid wages that the citizens cannot afford to pay.   A reduction of 20% of all employees except those paid one half of the posted average wage would be a starting point.

Many city employees will cry “I’ll quit if they reduce my wage”, but it would take the entire sheriff’s department to control the traffic to control the hundreds of unemployed that would apply for the vacated jobs.  There is no person or job that is irreplaceable.

As for increasing the availability of the parks for the teen age citizens. Is there not a curfew in existence on them being in the park after a set time? As most citizens are aware these teenagers are people of the night.

There is a line which divides what the working taxpayer can pay for services and when public servants breach this line it only increases the crisis to where it becomes uncontrollable.  Tulsa is teetering on that line.

No one likes a pay cut.  I took a 25% cut once to try to save the company I worked for.  Ultimately it didn't work out but we all tried.

Stand next to 4 of your "brothers" and tell them you'd rather have one of them riffed than take a 20% pay cut.  Oops, it may be you that is gone.

I admit, it's not a nice situation.

It's another P.R. device to make the citizens feel guilty,
and demand that the Mayor bow to emotional arguments rather than logical ones.

Actually quite clever, putting a "human face" on fiscal mis-management...
and sad in a way that most of those faces had no real say in department spending.

Alas, it's still the same stubborn union it was a year ago.

The police union does not, nor has it ever managed the police department.

The Tulsa FOP Lodge 93 is the recognized bargaining agent representing Tulsa Police Officers in contract negotiations with the City of Tulsa pursuant to Oklahoma law.

FOP Lodge 93 participates in programs and activities to:

Promote and foster the enforcement of law and order
Improve the proficiency of our members in the performance of their duties
Encourage fraternal, educational, charitable and social activities among officers
Support and defend the Constitution of the United States

Being intractable, no matter how grave the financial situation is or how many of its members might get axed in the process.

Fixed that for you.

So now, the FOP 93 website is posting pictures and biographies of those likely to be affected by layoffs in the hopes of garnering public support. Why stop there though?  Why not go all out and put pics of the officer's families and pets up there for even greater sympathy? 

What about posting the pictures of all other City employees that stand to lose their job or the thousands of others in the metro area that have lost or will lose their's in this economy? You can start with the hundreds affected by the Arrow Trucking Co shut down that are already going without a paycheck if you truly want to put a human face to this economic disaster Tulsa is facing and having to make the tough choices to combat.

What makes these officers any different than the other men and women out there that have helped to pay your salaries over the years and are themselves facing uncertainty in this economy?

This is getting to the point of being sad.  Rather than buck up in this recession and in the face of the economic toll it has had on everyone in Tulsa, these unions would seek to garner support through cheap theatrics than to say "I'll gladly take whatever pay reduction is necessary so all my fellow officers and city service employees can keep their jobs."

This mentality of seniority rules when facing layoffs seems like a big 'screw you' to their fellow brothers that recently joined the force or have even been there 4-5 years, as this may effect them as well if the layoffs reach that deep.

I keep waiting to see the Sally Struthers commercial followed by one for the FOP and IFFA.

Perfect example of a fear tactic being used here and the Tulsa World comments section by those that are and claim to be TPD.  Why resort to such tactics?  Simply state your case and let the elected leaders decide.  You want to make an impassioned plea to the masses?  Why resort to strong arming an emotional fear response?

Losing some of the force due to budget constraints and a lack of willingness or cooperation on the part of the other members to look at salary and benefit reductions in order to save everyone's jobs does not mean there will be no force at all.  And yet every time, its "if you dont do this, you will not have this."  No, we just wont have as much and until things change, we'll have to suck it up and make due.

The FOP 93 did not take the pictures or host them. Detective Meulenberg came up with this idea on his own and took the pictures on his own.  He is hosting it on his photography website (that is the reason for the links to other people's pictures.) Det. Meulenberg focused on police and firemen because these people are people he knows and are his friends.  Other city employees may be doing the same thing. I don't know.

What makes the City of Tulsa employees different than other people in Tulsa that are about to lose their jobs is that the City of Tulsa is not broke. The City of Tulsa has enough money in different funds to not lay off anyone at least until the end of this fiscal year (July 1).  That is what the unions (FOP, Firemen and AFSCME) are trying to get the city to do.  The City of Tulsa could take the money and apply it to salaries until contracts could be re-negotiated.  AFSCME is never in the news because news organizations are mainly focused on public Safety.

The mayor's office today told TPD management that it should cut 3.4 million from the budget. So if that holds true and not changed the number laid-off will be around 100 officers.  The senority rules is a city of Tulsa policy that has been around for years. It is meant to reward years of service for employees of the city.  

Also, the mayor has still not signed the MOU about police cars being driven outside the City of Tulsa. There is no updated policy to reflect the fact that the FOP agreed to the change.  I don't know if he is too busy or because he wants officers to drive the cars outside the city so they can still talk about it.

The mayor sent out a memo today to Tulsa police officers. The memo is available on the channel 6 website.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/0912/Budgetmemo.pdf

In the memo he talks about TCSO providing public safety in selected parts of Tulsa at a cost that the City can afford. 

I'm wondering if the Mayor just plans on outsourcing all public safety to the county. They would be alot cheaper.  However, the city would lose all the revenue that is generated from traffic violations and municipal ordinance violations. TCSO can not enforce municipal (traffic or penal) ordinances. They can only enforce state law.  Also on another note, if they are given an area of Tulsa to patrol, are they going to be participating in the COMSTAT system? The city of Tulsa spent millions of dollars for this system.  Is it going to just fall by the wayside?

There is some other stuff, but I'm tired. I'll probably post some more tommorow.

Sure, the money is there now. But it doesn't take a genius to see that consecutive months of revenue decreases in double-digit percentage points is a huge and fast drain on those funds. Why should the mayor wait to demand cuts until the city is outright broke? Wouldn't that be financially irresponsible?

The city has a finite supply of money. Police and fire eats a huge share of that money. Why are you guys so intractable about making concessions that would 1) preserve your jobs; 2) keep the city afloat until better times arrive? Instead, it's like you guys are putting your own gun to your head.

I don't want to see the mayor outsource public safety. But if he keeps dealing with selfish jerks such those in the FOP, I wouldn't blame him does so and breaks the union's stupid, self-serving stranglehold on the city.

I don't understand the math the union is using.

According to the city budget and executive summary for fiscal year ending in 2010, the police budget is $86,735,000 and the department has 781 sworn officers and 116 non-sworn employees for a total of 897 employees.

That works out to be $96,694.54 per employee in that department.

The mayor has asked for a $3.4 million budget cut.

How does that equal 100 or 135 officers?

This is the same union that claimed the 392 out-of-town take home vehicles would only save about $75,000 per year (52 cents per car per day).

DTN- First off, I'm not a union person and I've been a life-long cynic of unions and have a terrible distaste for how they have wrecked entire industries in the U.S. (steel, auto, et) and unwittingly sent jobs out of the country. 

However, I've got to say the FOP members are getting what they pay for, and the union is attempting to do what is expected of it- job security, and protecting wages.  This is a clever tactic on their part and they are doing precisely what a union does, only this is one of the more creative things I've ever seen in relation to trying to avert lay-offs. 

Maybe they borrowed that busted calculator that the Chamber Of Commerce always uses to over-state the economic impact of public fleecings.

You make it sound as if spending millions of dollars on mapping software is a good thing.
Arent those the type of open-ended expenditures that have brought us to this?

From a practical standpoint, what would be wrong with re-assigning "specialty" employees to where they would be more effective?  Despite the recent publicity campaign, is it more essential to have police posing as little girls in the internet to lure pervs to Oklahoma than it is trying to solve homicides and robberies?

I realize that cushy assignments are likely rewards, but in a time of crisis, isnt it more of a service to the community to be where you are most needed?  ...if even just long enough to get everyone back on their feet?

The idea is a good one, although the amount is certainly questionable. Since businesses often buy overpriced and underperforming software, "running government like a business" isn't a solution.

RM: "I don't understand the math the union is using.

According to the city budget and executive summary for fiscal year ending in 2010, the police budget is $86,735,000 and the department has 781 sworn officers and 116 non-sworn employees for a total of 897 employees.

That works out to be $96,694.54 per employee in that department.

The mayor has asked for a $3.4 million budget cut.

How does that equal 100 or 135 officers?

This is the same union that claimed the 392 out-of-town take home vehicles would only save about $75,000 per year (52 cents per car per day)."

The answer to that may be an easy one. Surely you don't expect the non-sworn employees, probably management level, to take part in any job reductions! That leaves the bulk of the cuts to come from (rookie)street cops.

I'm still stunned at the average pay reported here. We need to reassess just how much education and training is necessary for adequate protection. If it means re-assessing what constitutes "adequate" then start that process as well. Considering our crime rate, higher education and higher pay scales may not be such a good idea.

Setting the bar too low just encourages the abusive assholes to become officers.

The Tulsa police department is average or below average for the wages that are paid to police officers in cities our size.  You may think they are high when compared to what you make or what you think officers should make but they are not.

RM, the number of police officers that are going to be laid-off came from the Chief of Police and the city, Not from the union.  City of Tulsa policy determines who gets laid-off.  The union contract mirrors the city policy. This policy covers ALL city employees.  For lay-offs to happen any other way, the mayor and city council would have to change city policy. Of course, the only department the mayor is talking about is the police department and their mean old union.

I've posted this before but here are some studies regarding education levels for police departments.

A study by Roberg & Bonn (2004) suggest a strong argument for college-educated police officers. They argue that:
The benefits provided by a higher education, combined with social and technological changes, the threat of terrorism (along with civil rights issues) and the increasingly complexity of police work, suggest that a college degree should be a requirement for initial police employment. (p.13)


Aamodt, Michael G. Research in Law Enforcement Selection. Boca Raton, Florida: Brown Walker Press, 2004.
Summarizes 330 studies investigating the validity of methods used to select law enforcement personnel. Concludes that officers with a college education perform better in the academy, receive higher performance ratings on the job, have fewer disciplinary problems, have less absenteeism, and use force less often than their peers without a college education.

Fullerton, Ernie. “Higher Education as a Prerequisite to Employment as a Law Enforcement Officer.” Dissertation, University of Pittsburgh, 2002.
Summarizes the works of ten researchers from 1967 to 1992 who found important desirable traits for officers that are achieved through college education: less cynicism, less authoritarianism, less attrition, fewer disciplinary problems, more local pride in the police department, fewer sick days, higher academic performance, more awards, higher felony arrests made, higher performance evaluations, better decision making, flexibility in problem solving, greater empathy toward minorities, less negativity toward legal restrictions, more discretion and less control-oriented, less inclined toward rigid enforcement of the law, and less support for insularity.
Kappaler, V. E., Allen D. Sapp, and David L. Carter. “Police Officer Higher Education



Significant Findings from Previous Literature (Carter, Sapp, & Stephens 1989:ix-x)
College-educated officers perform the tasks of policing better than their non-college counterparts.
College-educated officers are generally better communicators, whether with a citizen, in court, or as part of a written police report.
The college-educated officer is more flexible in dealing with difficult situations and in dealing with persons of diverse cultures, life-styles, races, and ethnicity.
Officers with higher education are more ―professional and more dedicated to policing as a career rather than as a job.
Educated officers adapt better to organizational change and are more responsive to alternative approaches to policing.
College-educated officers are more likely to see the broader picture of the criminal justice system than to view police more provincially as an exclusive group.
The quality of college education varies significantly; this appears to co-vary with officers‘ attitudes and the effect of education on police performance.
Law enforcement agencies have fewer administrative and personnel problems with the college-educated officer compared with the non-college officer.

 

here are some other studios I found:

A recent large-scale study of California police officers found that, “Officers with fewer college units tended to have significantly more complaints than officers with a higher number of units.”  (Wilson, Journal of California Law Enforcement, V33, N4, 1999)

In the “Rampart Division Scandal” of the Los Angeles Police Department (murdering suspects, planting evidence, perjury, etc.) only one of the many involved officers was a college graduate, in spite of a high percentage of college graduate officers overall in the Department.  (Unpublished study by Dennis Porter, Los Angeles, 1999)

The Blue Ribbon Commission in Chicago recommended that officers have bachelor’s degrees as a move to reduce corruption. (Report of the Commission on Integrity, Report to Mayor Daly, 1997)

A Rand study determined that college grads had only an 8% civilian complaint rate compared to a 24% rate for non-college grads.

Of the NYCPD officers arrested for corrupt acts from 1993 to 1997, 86% would not have been hired had an associate’s degree been required.  (Gerald W. Lynch, President of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, USA Today, August 6, 1997)

Another study found that in a midwestern city, officers without a college education accounted for 42% of the total founded complaints while only accounting for 29% of the total officer population.  (American Journal of Police, V11, N2, 1992)

In Dade County, Florida research found that a police officer with a four-year degree had a 73% chance of superior performance, 65% if he or she possessed a two-year degree and a 50 % chance if he or she had a high school diploma. (Journal of Police Science and Administration, V5, N1, March 1977)

A study of 118 nonsupervisory patrol officers from Lincoln, Nebraska found that higher education was associated with less dogmatic beliefs (more open-mindedness) and better patrol performance.  (Journal of Police Science and Administration, V6, N3, September 1978)
 

Here is a great article from the Arlington Police department. I could try and put this into my own words but I think they do a great job in explaining why police officers need college degrees.  The Tulsa police department needs something like this on their website:

Academics have pushed our department to a new level of professionalism and innovation

by Theron Bowman, Chief, Arlington Police Department, Arlington, Texas

If we expect to meet the growing demands of community policing, we must increase the education of our officers. For 16 years, the Arlington Police Department has recognized the importance of a college education. We require a four-year degree, not just for new recruits but for officers who want to advance in the department. Our officers contend that their education provides them a broader understanding of society and an improved ability to communicate, which translates into better problem-solving skills and a higher level of service to citizens.

The requirements have pushed our department to a new level of professionalism and innovation and increased our pool of female and minority candidates, providing us with valuable diversity. Police work always has demanded that officers address a variety of
problems and situations. Still, law enforcement has changed dramatically since 1983, when I joined the Arlington Police Department. Then, the department was more authoritarian. Decisions on policy were reached at the top, supposedly freeing officers from the burden of thinking for themselves. Today, officers are more autonomous. We expect them to understand and
apply the law evenly. We expect them to grasp the nature of social problems and the psychology of people with different attitudes toward the law. We expect officers to professionally and effectively handle disputes involving people from varying cultural, racial, and socio-economic backgrounds.


Community policing takes it one step further in requiring officers to be more than enforcers of the law. They must think and act proactively, not just reactively. Community policing relies heavily on problem solving and on developing partnerships with residents and business owners. The "us versus them" attitude is no longer acceptable. We push officers to be innovative and to create programs and resolve dilemmas by working with the community. Officers must wear different hats when assertively
handling an obstinate suspect and when cooperating with citizens to prevent crimes or solve a problem. Today's idea of community of policing demands more of officers. Higher education helps sharpen the skills that officers need to successfully interact with the community.

A Degree of Benefits

Only about 50 state and local police agencies nationwide require officers to have a four-year college degree. That's a small number, considering that in most other professions a college education is practically inherent.

Many people preparing themselves for a successful career view college as their first step. Employers consider college degrees when screening job candidates. In short, degrees are expected in today's marketplace. We at the Arlington Police Department believe the same philosophy should apply to law enforcement. In fact, raising educational standards for police officers long has been advocated as a way to improve the quality of police service. The Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement
Agencies, Inc.,  notes that higher education is not an "absolute answer," but stated in its 1994 Standards Manual that "Officers who have received a broad general education have a better opportunity to gain a more thorough understanding of society, to communicate more effectively with citizens, and to engage in the exploration of new ideas and concepts."Numerous studies conducted since the 1970s have suggested that a college education enhances law enforcement. Benefits of higher education in policing include:

Better behavioral and performance characteristics
Fewer on-the-job injuries and assaults
Fewer disciplinary actions from accidents and force allegations
Less use of sick time
Greater acceptance of minorities
Decrease in dogmatism, authoritarianism, rigidity and conservatism
Fewer citizen complaints
Promotion of higher aspirations
Enhancement of minority recruitment.

Despite these findings, there has been little change in the past 20 years in educational standards for police officers. Among the reasons cited for not requiring college degrees of officers is the belief that college education has no correlation in law enforcement and that it will reduce the pool of candidates. We have found exactly the opposite in Arlington.

The Arlington Experience

Arlington, between Dallas and Fort Worth with a population of 340,000 over 100 square miles, is the third largest city in north Texas. It hosts more than 6.5 million visitors each year and is home to national attractions, such as Six Flags Over Texas and The Ballpark in Arlington, home of the Texas Rangers.

The Arlington Police Department has been a nationally accredited agency since 1989. We have an authorized staff of 589 sworn and 175 non-sworn. We began phasing in college degree requirements in 1986. First, we required new recruits with no prior police experience to hold at least a bachelor's degree. Recruits with a minimum of two years experience and an associate's degree were also eligible for employment. The requirements did not apply to current officers, but the stipulations prompted many of them to seek their first degree or to further their education. About 75 percent of Arlington officers hold at least a bachelor's degree.

In 1999, we updated the policy to require that all new recruits, regardless of previous experience, hold a bachelor's degree. We also required officers who had been "grandfathered" to seek a higher education to qualify for promotion.

Other educational milestones:


*        In 1991 a Bachelor's degree was required for deputy chiefs.
*        In 1995 a Bachelor's degree was required for lieutenants.
*        In 1999 a Master's degree was required for assistant chiefs.
*        In 2000 at least a four-year degree was required of any office


seeking a promotion. Also, assistant chiefs were required to hold a Master's degree.

In our recruiting efforts, we quickly realized that college students preferred to work where their college education was a consideration. This was especially true in "protected-class students," racial and ethnic minorities and all females who often were first-generation college students. In fact, people from protected classes have made up about two-thirds of each of our recruit classes since 1986. At conferences around the country, Arlington police officers of all levels hear other departments complain of struggling to recruit new officers. Although the Arlington Police Department has more demanding educational requirements, applicants continue to pour in. In 24 months (June 2000 to last June) we hired 161 officers. We are in the last phases of a plan to hire about 42 more officers (as of last June) before the end of this year; and the pool of quality applicants continues to replenish itself. Enhancing our educational requirements has not hampered our efforts to mirror the community. In fact, as of May of this year, 11 percent of Arlington officers are Hispanic, 12 percent are African-American, and 5 percent are of American Indian and Asian or Pacific Island descent. Also, 16 percent of those officers are female, well above the national average of 12 percent.

Classrooms to Streets

A person's commitment to the rigorous demands of a college education indicates that person's dedication to the pursuit of excellence. College imparts not just extensive academic knowledge but real-life experience to help officers deal with the community. College exposes students to people with different backgrounds, languages, ideas, beliefs, attitudes and goals.

Patrol experience has no substitute, but police departments increasing realize that skills learned in the classroom qualify as essential for today's officers. In that regard, Arlington officers are expected to be computer-literate. They conduct community meetings using PowerPoint presentations. They must be able to read and interpret statistical data. Sergeants and lieutenants often conduct surveys to determine citizen priorities and expectations. Supervisors must analyze trends using precise research methods. When front-line employees submit requests to my office for changes in policy or procedure, they are often accompanied by thorough documentation.

Such processes have become the norm in our department; and, because recruits come to us with academic training and basic computer skills, our department can spend more time teaching the essentials-police issues and tactics.

We believe that a competent, professional staff continues to build on its academic education by remaining open to experiment and to what is new in law enforcement. Still, if educational standards for law enforcement personnel have not changed drastically across the board, it is likely due to the demands and expectations of police chiefs. Our experience in raising our standards has proven to be nothing but beneficial. Having a college-educated police force has most decidedly contributed to the degree of quality that our residents have come to expect.


Assistant Chief Tommy Ingram

Operations Bureau

Master of Liberal Arts, Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice It took six years to finish the second half of my first degree because I was working full-time on rotating shifts. Back then, my degree was a personal goal because the department did not require one. I've found that higher education has enabled me to relate better to the community by giving me a greater understanding of other people's perspectives and problems that affect their neighborhoods. It also expanded my own perspective, broadening the scope of options that I may not have considered before. After promotion to my current position, I enrolled in graduate school. It has dramatically enhanced my research and writing skills, furthering my ability to better serve the community.

Detective Liz Edmonds-Hayes
Domestic Crimes Unit
Bachelor of Science

I investigate a wide range of crimes, including sexual assaults and family violence. The extensive amount of writing required for obtaining my degree in journalism equipped me with the communication skills that I rely on in my job as a detective. I am called upon daily to express myself in writing in the form of arrest warrants, case reports, search warrants and written statements. My college experience has helped me to concisely and effectively prepare and file cases, which leads to a higher probability of successful prosecution. It is my hope that the outcome of such cases will benefit not just the victims and their families, but the community as a whole.

Deputy Chief Lisa Womack
Community Services Division

Master of Public Administration, Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice My education has helped me tremendously in the areas of problem-solving and community involvement. My MPA focused on service delivery from a local government perspective, which has been beneficial in developing community-policing strategies. I am working toward a Ph.D. in sociology.


Officer Dolores Chavez
Patrol
Master of Liberal Arts, Bachelor of Science

While I was attending college, I interacted with students of all nationalities, cultures and socioeconomic levels. The experience was
valuable in that it afforded me the opportunity to better understand and interact with other ethnic groups that make up a large part of the community we serve.

Sergeant Lauretta Hill
supervisor in Personnel and Recruiting Unit

Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice with a minor in sociology My experiences in college prepared me to interact with applicants from various backgrounds, ethnic groups, and socioeconomic classes. Because I am responsible for hiring new officers, I constantly interact with the community. I attend career fairs around the state and teach the hiring process to residents in the Citizens Police Academy. I also speak to high school classes to prepare them for careers in law enforcement.

Lieutenant Carolyn Allen
Internal Affairs Section
Bachelor of Science

My degree is in education and I have a state certification for teaching. I have held several positions in the department and my degree has proven to be extremely helpful in each one. I served as a School Resource Officer for about three years before my promotion. My degree has given me the foundation that is needed to support the department's implementation of "Geographic Policing," which focuses on problem-solving, promoting open communication, and working with the community. It has also provided me with the skills necessary to effectively present information to and communicate with various community groups about their needs and concerns.

Sergeant Lonnie Wright
Patrol
Bachelor of Theology

I was motivated to go to college when I realized the direction the department was taking in requiring degrees for promotion. Many of my colleagues already had degrees and I recognized that with technology developing at such a fast pace, a college education would help me keep up my career as a law enforcement officer. It's been difficult having a full-time career and raising four children. But I realized that to be the best officer and the best pastor (I am also an ordained minister) I needed the best training. Since receiving my degree, I have been promoted to sergeant, my salary has increased and my self-esteem has improved as well. Knowledge is power, and the more knowledge I can obtain, the more power and control I have over my future.

Officer Corinthia Campbell
Narcotics, formerly Patrol
Bachelor of Arts in Psychology

As a patrol officer, I constantly strove to improve community relations as part of my duties of community policing. My college education prepared me for concise and educated decision making. Working patrol taught me to improvise and think quickly. Being exposed to a mixture of lifestyles and cultures in college helped me adjust to others and taught me the importance of being tolerant. Life experiences have also taught me that most situations aren't as they first seem and another perspective may be needed to solve the problem. One thing that life constantly reminds me is that a combination of experience and education
is unbeatable.

I certainly prefer the idea of educated officers as opposed to thug cops.

Quoted from MH2010 quote
-------------------------------------
The quality of college education varies significantly; this appears to co-vary with officers‘ attitudes and the effect of education on police performance.
--------------------------------------------

In the foregoing argument is this why Tulsa, among a minority of cities, require a year of training through the Police Academy and field instructions before they are capable of being turned loose on the streets?

Should Tulsa retire all officers who do not have the four years of college?

It is being cited on the classification/wage scale of schedules on which the TPD base their justification of compensation and quoted as being established by the City,   By “Government of the People” do you recall when the wage scale was voted on by the citizens after the Charter amendments?  Or was it another back door entrance that is uncontrollable which will cause the city to default shortly.

The Charter provides for the Mayor to furnish an entire police department.  Could it be used for the Mayor to contract with the county, established by the state, to furnish policing functions authorized either by City Charter or State Statutes?

   

I get so tired of lines like this.  So far the only thing that has been there to save me and my family is my firearm.  The police show up after the fact, look around, take a report, then leave.  TPD actively prevents very few crimes that I have seen, and are more reactive then anything, and those reactions are limited.  Don't take this the wrong way, since having an active police force helps keep things from turning into the old west, but when it comes down to it, calling 911 to get the Police will very rarely result in any action that will increase my safety.  

Just shut up. What do you know about crime prevention.

/sarc

That's okay. I get so tired of people like you that think all police officers just wait for 911 calls and then go clean up the mess and take reports.  You should educate yourself. Fill out the form and do a ride-along with the police department. Better yet, enroll in the Citizen's police academy. Try and make an effort to understand how a police department works.  

The main function of patrol officers is to take calls (and complete initial reports). These are the officers that show up when people call 911. When there aren't any calls, Patrol officers "patrol" when they have free time. Unfortunatley, they are so busy because they are short staffed and the call load is so high that there is very little free time to patrol and actually do anything proactive.  Detectives main function is to investigate crime after it happens.  Their case loads are completely overwhelming and rarely do they have time to go out and chase people.

However, patrol and detectives are not the only police officers on the force.  Street crimes units and the Special investigation division are totally proactive and hunt the worst criminals in the area. They arrest armed and dangerous people before they can harm people.  They also arrest methamphetamine lab cooks usually before they manage to blow themselves or other people up.  

Here is one example of how this works since most people don't know, William Cody Lee was a drug dealer and a burglar. He was the head of a burglary ring that probably committed well over 200 burglaries (that would be over 200 victims) in Tulsa.

Special Investigation officers actively pursued William Cody Lee. Officers conducted surveillance and then arrested William Cody Lee with components of a methamphetamine lab. Officers also found a bunch of stolen stuff. Imagine that!! William Cody Lee was then charged with Endeavoring to manufacture CDS and other charges.  William Cody Lee pled guilty and was sentenced to 20 years in DOC.  

This guy was a serial offender. If he was out, he would still be burglarizing homes, cars, trucks, businesses anything he could.

This is how future crimes are prevented by officers. Rarely does it happen (like in the movies) when officers (or Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, ect) swoop in at the nick of time and stops the rapist, the murder, the armed robber in the act.

There are hundreds of examples of this but people never hear about them because they are not in the news. I'm not saying they should be. But it seems like if people don't read or see it on the news then it doesn't happen.

educate myself?  As opposed to your one sided view of how TPD is so great?  I've been on several sides of the line.  I've seen how many crimes are out there, and I've seen how many times that the victim, in the end, is left out to dry with no answers or action.  I've also seen how many crimes have occurred and the only action to them is the police showing up and taking a report.  I've also seen what it takes to find criminals and pull them off the street and put them away.  You try to turn this into a scare tactic of saving us.  When I say I get tired of hearing this line and you tell me to educate yourself, then I will in turn tell you that I have been educated.  I have obviously been educated beyond anything that your limited sight of reasoning can ever understand.  What an idiot.

TPD is a great police department.

In your earlier statement, you say "TPD actively prevents very few crimes that I have seen, and are more reactive then anything, and those reactions are limited." Evidently, you haven't seen very much. I guess you really haven't seen very much at all.  Just because you think you are educated about the police department doesn't make it so. 

However, the citizens of Tulsa will find out which one of us is right very soon. If 136 officers are laid-off, the Special Investigation Division and street crimes units will be shut down. The officers in those divisions will be put in patrol as well as alot of officers in the Detective Division. If you are right, crime won't increase. It will stay the same. If I am right, you will see a rise in crime because the police department will be totally reactive.

Evidently, I hit a nerve. I won't respond by calling you names.

I don't think anyone wants to see 136 officers laid off. We want to have the best force and plenty of officers to do the job.

We also want the roads repaired, we want better schools, and we want a million other things like opened pools, curbside recycling, streetlights on, and a new light rail system.

That is what we want. What can we afford?

I don't mean to sound uninformed and all, but every department head could do a better job if they could just have a few more bodies and pay their workers a little more. We could have water coming out of the tap that is crystal clear, we could have the trash man come into the kitchen each day and empty the garbage, and we could one teacher for every student if we just had more money.

There is no more money. The police department has to come to grips with that fact. You don't get to get other department's money. You don't get to change the rules of public financing by selling capital items for operational expenses.

I think the mayor is being reasonable for asking for some reorganization of middle and upper management of the police force. It would seem to me that it could be more productive than simply laying off the lowest paid workers on the force.

I never said that TPD does not prevent crimes, I said ACTIVELY prevents few.  The crimes that are prevented by TPD are generally from taking criminals off of the street after they have committed a crime.  In other words, the drug dealer that gets locked up for dealing drugs will be prevented from dealing drugs while incarcerated.  You imply that our safety will be at risk because there won't be anyone there to respond to 911 calls, however, calls to 911, beyond the all too often domestic disturbance calls, for police reasons are going to be after the fact a large portion of the time.  Thus, lay offs to TPD will effect my safety very little when it comes to comes to calling 911 for police.  Do I think that laying off so many officers is a good idea? No.  But trying to use scare tactics to sway people is just over used and I'm getting sick of it.  

And no, TPD is NOT a great police department.  Unfortunately, I don't know of any that would fit into that classification.  

As far as hitting a nerve, yes, you did.  I have been a victim of many crimes, from theft, to assault, to burglary.  To date, TPD has done NOTHING to resolve these.  The only thing that has had any effect on these has been my own actions.  I've chased criminals through my neighbor in nothing but shorts.  I've confronted people on my lawn with nothing but a ball bat, and the one that gets me all worked up when someone tells me that I need to educate myself is the incident where thugs kicked in my door to take my belongings and were stopped only by me greeting them with my gun that still, months later, causes me stress every time my doorbell rings.  So my calling you an idiot may have been a bit beneath me, but is far better then the profanities your comments made me want to post.  

And sorry, sitting in parking lots doing "paperwork", or driving the primary roads does not really constitute patrols.

And for the record, I spent years chasing down criminals, arresting them and hauling them in, so I am not beyond being empathetic of the situation.

lol you just made me think of an episode of the simpsons where homer gets elected as the head of sanitation.  He runs the departments budget dry in a few months doing stuff like having the trash guys go into the kitchen and taking out everyones trash.

RM,

You active disdain for the police union is well known. If the mayor wants to reorganze or restructure the department then he will have to negotiate with the union just like he will have to negotiate with the other unions in the city.  The union realizes there is no money. We gave the cars back and also changed how comp time is applied.  

The union wants to use the money to save the jobs of police officers because that is the people they represent. However, the union would also be fine with using the money available to save all city employees until negotiations are done. The union knows that if the city lays-off police officers they will never be hired back.  City policy and state law both say that officer's certifications are only good for one year. If they are not hired back in a year (they won't be) then they will have to go back thru the academy and start all over.

If we need to take a pay cut we will. I think all city of Tulsa employees would take a pay cut right now to save jobs.  It could even be structured so that people who make the most money take more of a cut.  The union would be agreeable to that also. The city needs to start the negotiation process. Once the contracts are done, then the city can lay-off however many they need to. Hopefully,  no one will be laid-off.

However, that is not what the mayor wants.  The mayor wants immediate cuts of 2.2 or 4.4%. Those immediate cuts would have to come in lay-offs and city policy as well as our contract with the city is very clear on how those would happen.  Everyone has to follow the rules.

Cust,

I would argue that the Tulsa police department prevents many crimes.  I see it every day.

Your statement about 911 calls prove that you do have a very limited knowledge of 911 calls and responses to those calls.

Your statement about about not knowing any great police departments speaks clearly about your opinion of all police departments, not just TPD.

After being the victim of so many crimes, you may need to get some psychological assistance. Feeling stress everytime a doorbell rings could be an indicator of PTSD.  There are many good therapists in the Tulsa area.  Hopefully, with the right amount of therapy you can recover.

I say that I don't know of any great police departments because I hold such departments to a very high standard, which all that I know of are falling short of.  Some are good, but none reach the level of great.  TPD falls even shorter in many area's.  But this all gets off of the topic at hand.  It is not a good thing for TPD to have to be put under budget cuts, but no department is immune.  Hopefully this will have a positive effect, such as a more positive ability of the department to account for it's budget and use it's funds more wisely, but so far it does not look like they have that in mind.

As far as the PTSD, it's very possible, but unless your offering to pay for any kind of counseling, looks like I'm on my own to face this as well.

I know. I didn't use to feel this way. I know many officers and they are all fine people who work hard and truly care about my safety. My father was a twenty year policeman here in Tulsa as well.

I soured on the union when I read on this forum five or six years ago about your negotiation tactics. The union reps took the attitude that if they could find any money in the city budget, they should be able to keep it. The union hired a lawyer out of OKC to try to embarass city budget officials, then officers gloated about it here on TulsaNow. Other city employees took a paycut that year, but the police got a pay raise.  

I am also a supporter of unions in general. I believe that employees should have the right to hire someone to fight for their job. I still see a need for unions in this country, but see examples like the carpenter's union hiring homeless people to chant outside of businesses as a terrible tactic.

I hope this all gets resolved soon.

The union never tried to "embarrass" city budget officials.  The police union is full of policemen.   The city has a whole department of lawyers and accountants. There are very few accountants or lawyers in the union so we hired Ron York because he is an expert in contract negotiations. In a response to our success winning independant arbitrations, the city has hired Tony Puckett. He is out of OKC also.  Mr. Puckett is known as a union buster and has been attacking our contract for two years now.  Someone should try and find out how much the city has paid him for doing their labor negotiating.  

The year you are talking about was the year that employees took at 2.1% pay cut (I think this was 2005).  The cut saved the city about 1.2 million (if my memory is correct.) The FOP found a way to save the city more money by not taking pay for overtime for the year.  The FOP saved the city 3.1 million dollars. You forgot to mention that city employees (other than policemen or firemen) received a 3% pay increase midyear the following year. The police and firemen did not.  

It's funny that you are a supporter of unions in general because I'm not anymore outside of civil service. I don't agree with the teamsters, the autoworkers union or most of the airplane workers unions. The carpenter union thing really makes me mad. I can't believe carpenters would allow their union to do that.

Here is an interesting article by Ron York if anyone cares to read it:

http://policepay.blogspot.com/2009/12/tale-of-two-cities-oklahoma-city-and.html

The unions I don't support are the professional sports player's unions. Each player already has an agent. The union just serves to negotiate out contract clauses like suspensions and avoid drug testing.

Considering that RM's descendants were cops and that RM is a stout defender of unions in general, perhaps you and the FOP ought to ask why it has drawn RM's disdain. Given these facts, did it occur to you at all that this disdain might have merit?

Just helping you catch your typos.

Thanks. That is what I get for not proof reading what I write.

RM and I have talked about why he dislikes the union. We see things differently. We've just agreed to disagree.

MH2010 and I have had this discussion for years online and in person. I respect him for coming here and giving out the police union side of the topic at hand.

The best thing about this is that it will be decided soon. I applaud the Mayor for his handling so far and his unwillingness to just fund a short term solution.

I don't doubt that being a policeman is a hard job. It deserves fair pay and we should do all we can to get them the tools and the manpower to do the job well. I also think that any organization with 900 employees can be structured differently with different layers of management.

That is what the Mayor keeps saying. Don't just say you are going to layoff the least senior employees. He is insisting on doing it differently.

Maybe we don't need three deputy chiefs, 9 majors, and 25 captains...

RM quoted: Maybe we don't need three deputy chiefs, 9 majors, and 25 captains...
------------------------------------------
Being the city is in the presumed need of such regimentation of the offices within the city, it is easy for one to agree on the above quote.  When 9 councilors as part time city employees spend thousands to be elected in their district paying $18,000 a year or equivalent to $9 dollars an hour while $50 a hour is paid the $100,000 dollar employees and the unions run the city, it is time for another chief someone with brass balls that cannot be squeezed to take over.

A progressive city that does not even own its city hall.;D

   

Public complaints, abuse of power and bad publicity took down a Street Crimes (aka "Vice Squad") for a while some years back.  They called it "budget cuts" to save face, but when you think about it, there are only so many prostitution stings and bar raids you can do before you max out your purpose.

...And unless im mistaken there is still an ongoing criminal investigation of corruption into the Special Investigations Division that may result in some staff changes.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=14539.0

Their budgets are not public record, are they?


Your still talking about sports unions, right?  ;)

I've been on the Tulsa police department for 10 years. At no time in the past ten years has public complaints, abuse of power and bad publicity taken down any street crime unit. Prostitution stings and bar raids are only a small part of what Street crimes units do. 

The grand jury is focusing on an ATF agent. You should know that.

Go back a bit further, when there was more than one Street Crimes unit. 


"Prosecutors appear to be focusing on several Tulsa police officers assigned to the Special Investigations Division. Additionally, an agent either currently or formerly employed with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is a target of the probe, sources said."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20091101_11_A1_Severa232734

Im sure the Whirled appreciates the update.

There have always been three street crimes units. One for each uniformed division. At least for the last ten years. They all were disbanded a few years ago because of manpower issues and then brought back. Not for the reasons you talked about.

The World reporter is getting his info from mainly defense attorneys.  We will see in a few weeks how it will play out though.

The latest rumor to go around it that a former Tulsa Assistant District Attorney was going to be indicted also.  

These rumors will run rampant until the Grand Jury is over. You and I both know that a Grand Jury is the most one sided, unfair thing in the justice system.

Compared to what?

Unfair is really a subjective term so I'll just stick with one sided.  Any other court room criminal justice procedure that I know of.  

In a Grand Jury, there is no "defense". It's  the procecutor and the grand jury.  No other side is being told. The procecutor has total control over what is being presented. Witnesses can not have their lawyer present while being questioned in the Grand Jury. Their lawyer can wait outside and they can talk to them during breaks but not during session.  Also, you can't refuse to testify before the Grand Jury.  Everyone must get on the stand. You have a right not to incriminate yourself but that is it.

I went to Military.com website to look up what we pay of Army officers on active duty...

http://www.military.com/military/benefits/0,15465,2010-House-Proposed-Military-Pay,00.html

Commissioned officers on active duty with less than two years experience make $33,000 per year.

RM- are you compairing military officer pay with that of patrolmen or that of management in the TPD like Sergeant, Corporal, Captain, Major ranks?

Active duty officers also have room and board either taken care of or a stipend for it which is not included in that salary figure.  O-1 to O-8 pay grades for under 2 years service range from $2655/month to $9090/month.

http://www.army.com/money/payrates.html

Really?  Is this so bad?

Police Chief Ron Palmer says the possible $3.4 million in cuts to the police department would gut the department, setting it back to 1980 staffing levels with 2010 crime rates. 

Population in 1980:         360,919
Population in 2007 (est):  385,635

I can't say that it bothers me much...   Although I have a hard time believing that there isn't some dead weight (even in the police department) to cut first.


http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=11770169

It all depends on what is "enough" police.
My guess would be that if you doubled the size of the force tomorrow, it would not be "enough".

BTW, The Whirled had an interesting look at the Mayor's strategy:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/blogs/weblog.aspx?column_id=30#7247

The "2010 crime rates." is troubling to me.  I have no idea how they differ, but I assume Chief Palmer knows what he is talking about.

I'd like to see along with that quip though what kind of response rates we had back then and what kind of dilligence we were getting on property crimes that so many people are complaining about a lack of now.  Are we getting less service out of a larger work force?  I have no idea what the answer is to that but would love to know it.  People performing their jobs efficiently is a major key here, just like all other city departments need to examine.

Did anyone notice the DOT highway emergency sign on the BA expressway westbound near the KVOO building?
It's one of those yellow electronic signs used to warn of construction, but this one was programmed to say "SUPPORT TFD"

Could a coalition of private businesses form a network of supplemental income jobs for TPD suffering from wage cuts?   I know off-duty officers often earn extra $ by providing security at businesses especially during the evening and night.  It is much better to have an off-duty for security than a rent-a-cop surely.

Has anyone done the math on how much money is just given away by cutting lose 150 (or whatever the exact number thrown around it) officers and handing them over to places like Dallas?  Surely the cost to train one officer is at least 5 figures.  Multiply that times the number let go.

I wonder how much revenue the average officer bring in per yer....You would think enough to cover their salary...

I think that is a very valid point, not only does the city lose the investment of training these officers (who will leave, they won't get hired back) and I also think there is a loss of revenue.  Again, these officers will leave the area and you lose the tax base of 100+ families. 

I was also told by someone in high upper management, that police department spends between 300 - 400k in overtime money supporting the events at the BOK, they were told by Taylor they must and the BOK refuses to add a service charge on the tickets.  I know the tickets are already really expensive, but really, if you are going to $150 for a ticket, you won't pay $151?  Why is the Police Department obsorbing the cost, when they are facing layoffs?  The other venues downtown are required to pay for their own security and traffic control.

The point being, maybe there is a need for fewer supervisors but that isn't going to happen overnight.  There are things they city can do to help this situation, instead of putting it all on the union's shoulder, especially when I haven't seen Bartlett providing options other than cut cut cut.

I think the BOK could pay $1 out of that $150 for the police.  If they are cutting it that close, they will be in trouble eventually.

As we hear all the police doom and gloom, then I see dozens of officers twiddling their thumbs for hours outside the BOK Center, I think that all BOK Center detail should be cut before any substantive cuts are made to TPD.

Why is it that dozens of cops are needed outside the arena? So they can spend 20 minutes directing traffic? I've been outside the BOK during events frequently, and I've seen lots of thumb-twiddling, and a little traffic direction, but nothing to justify paying hours of OT for dozens of cops. The traffic directing cops aren't even needed, as the post-event traffic levels are still not that high in comparison to the ridiculously large downtown street capacity.

I'll take my chances of a slow police reaction to a riot at the Hannah Montana concert if we can save some more essential TPD services than BOK Center detail.

BOK Center work is an overtime cash cow. IT is estimated that the cost of security, traffic direction and barricades for downtown events is $500,000 of TPD's budget. If for-profit places like the BOK center had to cover their own costs, they would hire a handful of off-duties for a fraction of the $1/per person rate and handle traffic just fine.

I see police officers putting out barricades for all the bike rides and runs. Surely we could have lowered paid workers do that work as well.

Two questions are raised here.  One of them is that Public Works was showing expenses in their street budget for barricades and etc. for things like the Route 66 Marathon, Tulsa Run, etc.  So now we have the TPD involved in that as well?

Seems to me the last time I promoted an event which required police security that we had to write a check for the overtime security.  I could be wrong about that, but I don't think the city gave that to us gratis.  Therefore, I'm thinking the BOK or the promoter of events there is likely paying for OT.  If they are not, then that is something else which needs to be looked at.

From the 2008 "Annual Report"
- 822 sworn police personnel
- $84M operating budget; $1.2M capital budget


$84 million?   Really?   They can't find another way to cut costs?
http://www.tulsapolice.org/service/2008_annual_report.pdf


The finance department gave up almost $1600 in magazine subscriptions!   Why can't everyone dig this deep and do their part?

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?s=11392169&clienttype=printable

I asked this earlier in the thread, but no answer. There is a $3 surcharge on water bills (I believe) that goes to EMSA. All firefighters are trained in emergency medical response. Couldn't some of that money be reallocated to firefighters?

Arent we then asking departments that have the fiscal responsibility to operate within their budgets to subsidize other departments that dont?

When you rob Peter to cover Paul's heroin habit, arent you sending the message that financial responsibility is optional?

Where's the "Yeah, we overspent. Here's how we will fix it" ? 
Instead we just get "You need us so you just better find the money"

The bigger kids stealing the littler kid's lunch money isnt going to be a good long-term solution.

I agree with your point, though a slight factual correction is in order.  Departments didn't over-spend their budgets, revenue is falling shorter than expected and it's requiring a commensurate cut in spending.  Wow, if the Federal government could just get that idea now.

There has been some discussion regarding the EMSA money as well, there is now a surplus, somewhere betwen 3 - 5 million is what I've heard.  I agree, that's another choice.  Again, there is money out there, it's just being ignored by the Mayor and a few of the councilors.  Several councilors are pushing for alternative sources of funding, to at least provide some short term relieft.  That allows time for contract negotiations and restructuring in a fair and legal way.

Secondly, here is a quote from Westcott in an email to me.  
 "other Councilors and I tried to persuade Mayor Taylor to charge the BOK Center for TPD security and overtime.  We were unsuccessful"  Of course my follow up question was so why haven't your tried again . . .  There is no doubt the PD is bearing the entire cost of security detail on the BOK (at overtime rates) and yes, Conan, you are right, you probably did have to pay for your security, everyone does expcet the BOK and we have Taylor to thank for that.  BUT I believe that is a decision that should have already been reversed.  

My personal frustration is there is no talk from the mayor about solutions other than layoff, demote, cut pay . . . . instead of just focusing on that why aren't we focusing on ways to create money in the short term, then address those issues in the contracts.

I'm in agreement that the police has to bear a share of the burden, but there shouldn't be such a big burden to bear, if the city would put their priorities in the right place.  

Looks like the sales tax figures are right on the City's projection (it's 40k more than expected) so does anyone know if that means a 2.2% cut or 4.4%?  I'm sure if I put a few articles together I could figure that out, but I don't have time right now.  You guys always seem to be on top of that kind of stuff.  

If we don't want to use the EMSA surplus, that's fine, then give it back to the people that paid it and do it immediately.  Why was there no CUT CUT CUT for EMSA when they said they couldn't afford to operate?  Did the people vote to put a $3 fee onto our bill to fund EMSA?  Why was their quick response to find additional money sources for EMSA but that can't happen now for public safety.

Also, I do believe public works puts out the barricades and such, the police are there during the events for traffic control (runs, parades, etc.)

Concessions:  TPD trades in old Crown Vic's for new low-speed pursuit vehicle:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/NEVMexico.jpg/800px-NEVMexico.jpg)

Ok, so I made part of that up.
It's actually for another thread, but I couldnt resist.

Which begs the question, where is that surplus money going now?

That would be perfect for pursuit of other electric cars and golf carts.  Awesome!

These are the questions being asked of our mayor and councilors and we aren't getting answers.  I have had several emails back and forth with Westcott and he hasn't addressed any of my specific questions regarding funding.  Period, nothing. 

Have you tried emailing Martinson?  ;D

I thought Smart Cars (the little ones from Mercedes) were being used in the River Parks areas.

An officer told me tonight he called him over 200 times before he finally got a call back.  Maybe I should hire him an aide (and issue he mentioend over and over tonight) so he can address his citizens. 

The answers were worthless, but I will have to say I was pleased to get a response. 

I think there is much more work to be done, I am glad to see some of the council pursuing options to help the budget shortfall.

Why does that not surprise me about uber-doosh Martinson...

The urbanization of Tulsa didn’t start yesterday. I started in 1940 as governments prepared for getting into the war in Europe.  They assumed controls over all production of which they became the only buyer.  Then came Douglas to Tulsa and “Rosie the Riveter” took off  the kitchen apron taking a job in the defense plants while the young men were installed in the army.  When it ended in the mid forties the rural areas were migrating into the city. The flood of making up for the war years production that was available to the citizens brought sweeping changes thus creating a golden economy.  The over production and under production brought swinging changes in the life styles in the urbanization which changed the single wage earner to dual wage earners.  There is no way to pin the apron on Rosie the Riveter and place her back in the home.  From the ashes came blotted city, state and national governments who found all sources of ways to tax and spend the citizen workers wages.  History teaches us that there is a limit to the amount of taxes the working citizen can pay.

The dilemma of the budget shortage has been because the citizens have enjoyed the golden years and let the city government run wild with uncalled for expenders as they created more little kingdoms than exist in the Mid-East, dedicated to preserving their turf. We have the CC putting out information that would suggest you cannot walk down the street unless some employer drags you inside and puts you to work.   Then with the influx of job seekers arriving it is we have increasing homeless and unemployment. They are only replacing those who are exiting the city and taking their tax base with them. 

It is time the citizens wake up and take a look at the essentials needed to operate the city along with the deep conflict of interest screened by the  smoke and reduce the labor costs across the board.  The Budget is merely imagination in the lands of fantasy as bureaucracies demand more and more taxes.       

 

Got to love the latest fear tactic spoon-fed to the media:

"One bad guy told an officer he is already planning his move if officers are laid off."

That was either the Burglars Union or the Fraternal Order of Pickpockets, dont know which the "bad guy" was with, but I hear their dues have to be paid in goods stolen from blind nuns and wrapped in a bow made from the intestines of kittens.

The articles in the TW today reflects the old cliché of don’t watch the magicians right hand he extends forward, instead watch his left hand.  This should apply also to the bureaucracies the make up the city of supervisors.  With the proposed budget of over half billion dollars the emphases are being reduced to the citizens support departments such as FD and PD. 

With a shortfall of only 10 million dollars in a 500 plus million dollar budget percentage wise, the across the board reduction would be very small. This should include all funds held in trusts along with all surpluses. 

Then a cap should be placed on all salaries until such a time when we can annex all the suburban communities that are collecting our sales taxes in their developing malls by installing a metro government for them. 

The problem is how do you create jobs in a robot driven metro community?  Add more local government created jobs?  Buy more desks and chairs?  ;D ;D   

The "bad guy" was Delmar Anthony Long. He is a frequent flyer in the Judical system.

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=573771&offender_book_id=347600

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/CaseSearch.asp?query=true&srch=0&web=true&db=Tulsa&icasetype=&iDATEL=&iDATEH=&iCLOSEDL=&iCLOSEDH=&number=&iLast=long&iFirst=delmar&iMiddle=anthony&iID=&iDOBL=&iDOBH=&SearchType=0&iDCPT=&iDCType=0&iYear=&iNumber=&icitation=&submitted=True

If his name were "Willie Horton" it would still be a cheap device.

You don't remember or have forgoten that the Douglas plant, Air Force plant number 3 was closed at the end of WWII, and not reopened until the mid 50's. This is when Tulsa became an aviation industry that grew until the 80's. During that time Tulsa had Douglas which became McDonnell/Douglas, North American Rockwell, and the AA maintenance facility. During the 50's 60's and the 70's Tulsa's aviation industry riviled the oil industry. At one time Tulsa had the big three, oil, aviation, and electronics, with Telex in the electronics. Let's not forget that most of the major players in oil, aviation, and electronics once based their headquarters in Tulsa. The change came with deregulation in the late 70's and into the 80's. And this does not include the rail industry that pased through Tulsa as a major hub.

They are. I got a ride in one of them once. They are fast, nimble, economical and robustly built. They would be fine as neighborhood patrol vehicles.

Back in the early sixties the force bought a fleet of economical, easy to handle Studebaker Larks. The cops hated them and replaced them with the more powerful Dodge sedans thus setting a standard. I imagine the local ford and chevy dealerships would resent buying lots of little benzes as well.

Somebody wrote that for you didn't they? Some of your points are pretty good. The fifties had us floating in money and we quite simply made some bad (but popular) decisions. I'm curious as to what city or government you think has done a good job assessing the essentials to operate a city and then budgeted that amount and no more?

bdacks; Waterboy: Being familiar with the airport and the smoke screens that engulfed its operations in the 50’s.  I worked on the air conditioning of the bomber plant before it opened.  Was associated with the person who built the building used to melt the A26’s down when the plant closes.  I installed the first air-condition produced by Zink in a house for Mr. Woodhead that was sent in from California by Douglas to reopen the plant.  Then the plant was declared surplus and Douglas offered to purchase it for around 7m dollars and the city said it was worth twice that and ask the building and all the machines be given to them. After they received the building and machines, free from the government, they signed a sweetheart deal with AA and they have continued to pass the roses on to them.   Same story with the school bus operation.  There seem to be no available information of number of  residents of Tulsa that are employed in the two sweetheart operations.

Back to the storytellers on how the citizens support system will be impaired by reducing their numbers.  Under the charter the Mayor has the sole authority to regulate a budget to conform with the revenue gathered from the working poor.  The charter calls for the council to meet twice a month to stamp approval on the Mayor’s actions.  In the event there is a dissention from a councilor that councilor can be called individually by the mayor on the carpet to explain their objection.  The mayor is obligated to appoint a police chief and dictate to them the prevailing terms on how the department is run.

Unions were never authorized by statute or code to take over the running of a city or county.  Union contracts should be approved by a vote of the citizens not by a hand picked group.   This in the instant case the charter change (amendments) placed dictatorial  powers in the hand of a few after three attempts to pass it.  This is what the people voted for.

Have fun skipping through the tulips and singing “bring the tax base back from the suburbs”.

In the mean time, cops who aren't in a hurry to get somewhere can stop wasting my money by flooring it at every stoplight. I can't count how many times I've seen a cop on a downtown one-way street, where the lights are timed to 20-25mph, floor it once the light turns green, only to wait at the next light instead of the much more efficient slow acceleration to 20mph, thus carrying your momentum through the subsequent stoplights.

The city looses a $270,000 lawsuit brought by a man who was only given a 5% chance of surviving a 2007 beating by Tulsa Police.

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0110/696627.html
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20100116_14_A13_Thecit850977

Chief Ron Palmer said James D. Weakley, Jerad Lindsey and Ian J. Simmons are still with the Tulsa Police Department and that an Internal Affairs investigation found "no sustained misconduct" on their part.

The $270,000 will be drawn from the city's "sinking fund"

"It's an expensive lesson"  ...for the taxpayers.
A quarter of a million dollars could have gone for a lot of salaries and other city services.


http://www.kaltura.com/index.php/kwidget/wid/iolg51dp44/uiconf_id/48411


 

Guess who I'd put first in line on the layoff list?

They didn't "lose" the case, they settled.  Big difference.  I watched the video.  Unless I am missing something, I have no idea how that man could have gotten $270,000.  He gets up and walks with the officer to the car.  What I see is a drunk, obnoxious man, and an officer who maybe over reacts slightly.  If anything, it reminds me that officers really do have to put up with all sorts of cr*p.

When your settlement means you are the one paying out, it could be argued you are the looser.




His settlement stems from the severity of his injuries.  When he's walking back to the car, his broken ribs have already punctured several major organs, and it was while he was in intensive care that he was given a five percent chance of survival.

I also saw a drunk, obnoxious man summoned out of his home in the dead of night.  He was in his shorts, another resident can be seen in a bathrobe.  One of the first things the officer comments on was that the man was drinking, and bluffs a stock laundry list of usual symptoms (slurred speech, stumbling, bloodshot eyes).
The officer becomes noticeably agitated when he fails a challenge to state what color the mans "bloodshot eyes" are.

He quickly looses composure.

At 6:52 minutes into the tape, officer moves in chest to chest, sticks finger in suspects face.  The suspect comments "back up" and the officer yells "No im not gonna back up!" and continues to yell while the suspect speaks softly.  By 7:50 the officer has moved so close into the suspects face that the suspect's teetering makes contact ("assault"), at which point the officer escalates the encounter into physical violence and begins shoving.

City legal saw they couldnt win this one. 
In Civil court, the ineptitude of Internal Affairs and the cronyism of the DA are all stripped away, and you have to deal with just the evidence.  The video plainly showed the officer had lost control of his professional conduct, and the city decided to cut it's losses and write a $270,000 check for the damage he caused.       

Anyone who has had to pay for hospitalization lately knows the victim isnt exactly rolling in cash now after having to pay two weeks of intensive care and subsequent rehabilitation.

This could have been a lot more costly if the city had to loose this in front of a jury.

The saddest part is that there were no consequences to those that acted irresponsibly on behalf of the city, and no apparent incentive to keep something like this from happening again.  The money to pay for lawsuits grows on the taxpayer tree, and we know that's limitless....   :-\


Yes, they do.  They have to maintain their professionalism while having to deal with the worst of society.
Many succeed, but there are too many others that devolve to the point where they view everyone as the worst of society, and they become ineffective.

...and expensive.



The union would prevent that, since they have seniority.
These are the people the FOP fight hardest to protect.
It will be the fresh, bright-eyed youths right out of the academy that will end up thrown under the bus.

Did you hear the entire tape?  ( I ask because the audio is pretty bad).  It is clear from the conversation that the officer had been there for a while even before the tape began.  The man was having a party.  The officer was there on the complaint of a neighbor about  noise and about a group of kids who were jumping of the neighbor's roof onto a trampoline.  Regardless of all those funny youtube videos, truly a dangerous thing to let kids do.  I am quite certain that the officers was concerned that a very drunk man responsible for kids was allowing them to jump off a roof.  In their conversation, it becomes clear that the officer was trying to talk to one of the kids, when the drunk man sent the kid away.  The officer asks to speak to the kids, but the drunk man refuses.  I don't know what the officer was thinking, but my first thought would be to find out if those kids had been drinking too.  In the conversation, you also hear that the man's wife had already come out and tried to calm the drunk guy down, to no avail.  The drunk guy repeatedly shows disrespect for the officer, by referring to him as "pal".  It may seem silly that the officer keeps correcting him, but he is trying to maintain control over the situation.  Then the officer finally loses his cool, and he and several other officers pin the guy down and handcuff him--something that is done routinely all over the country.  I'm not saying that this couldn't have been handled better, but it certainly was no Rodney King moment.  Just looking at the video, had I sat on the jury, I don't know that I would have given the guy anything.

I don't think you can say that "City Legal knew they couldn't win this one."  All trials are risks, and even going to trial costs money.  Juries are unpredictable, and are very likely to sympathise with an average joe.  Sometimes its just better to cut your losses.

Yes, that's exactly the thing.  Officers can not afford to do that - for many reasons.
Disrespecting a cop is reprehensible, but not illegal and certainly the training and public trust given to the police should prevent anyone's bones breaking for the same.  
I think you're right about that.  The problem is that the department never admits an error and tells the public specifically what is being done to ensure that kind of error does not reoccur - rather, the department "circles the wagons", admitting no fault whatsoever and thereby appearing disappointingly disingenuous.  It's really unfortunate for all of us.

Admitting no fault says that there wasn't any other way to effectively protect those kids from danger.  What happened with those kids, anyway?  Did somebody stay behind to check on them after bozo was hauled off?

This all pales in comparison to the waste and corruption in the Public Works Department.

You're right about that.

Are you and I the only people in Tulsa who seem to be aware, or at least give a rat's azz about this?

Depends on what your definition of "beats people up" is....my property continues to get beat up despite the 4 phone calls about a pile of next door debris next to my yard that continues to kill adjacent foliage. As a past developer, getting beat up was routine for the PWD. It showed their mighty power, their arrogance, their lack of open mindedness. Or their lack of interest in forecasting huge traffic congestion based on demand which they had no clue about. Or....oh, what's the point. The heads of PWD own city hall....

Jamie Jamison came up with the best one-word assessment of the Public Works streetlighting arrangement:  "Scandalous"
...but there are other threads about that. ;D    This one is about police spending.   

Palmer just got fired.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=439&articleid=20100122_11_0_hrimgs444519 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=439&articleid=20100122_11_0_hrimgs444519)

KWGS just reported that they contacted Palmer to verify the above TW story, and he said he didn't know anything about it.

He apparently denied it, and is now denying he denied it.
What is truth, anyway?  ;)

Lead by example, start cutting from the top.

Palmer said he found out he was resigning from TulsaWorld.com

Classy.

How long before Mayor Bartlet (sic) calls Tom Adelson and asks him if he'd rather be mayor?

New offer:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100122_11_0_hrimgs567828

"using $2.5 million in Justice Assistance Grant money over 18 months"

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100122_11_0_hrimgs567828

Wait- was the grant money not already on the table as part of the accounting by the city in their offer?

Honestly they need to come out and cut all the department heads, mayor and city council salaries by 5% before they start chopping elsewhere.

Just what the hell is going on here?

FOTD will agree, the best start would be marching Charles Hardt to the door.

NOPE, It was Palmer. Hardt owns this town.

Rico, right on!

The new chief was the head of the Sheriff's Drug Task Force, so im guessing the flow of tax money wasted down the "war on drugs" toilet wont be diverted towards anything useful (like education and things to occupy restless youths) anytime soon.

What a nightmare. You know the north side finally got a new grocery store. On opening day, know who was there as if she had really done something? Taylor. Know why that's ironic? Because the FEDS had to MAKE her start looking for one to begin with. Yes, she's where all of this starts on MOST issues we're facing. But Bartlet is no better. I am irate anymore at how all of this has been handled. This should never have happened. Nobody should be losing jobs and nobody should be forced to take pay cuts. This is ridiculous and Bartlet needs to be gone.

No.  Palmer requested permission (from Bartlett) to inquire with the Feds about using JAG money to prevent layoffs.  Bartlett ordered him NOT to make that inquiry.  Probably just one of the issues between the Mayor and Palmer.

Just remember...  it's not about the money, and never has been.

Nobody? When revenues are way down?

So what would your solution be, o newbie?

Wait, I thought the JAG money was being used already to save the "Tulsa 21".

Please explain what it is all about if it's not about money. I sure would like to hear the officer's perspective more often on this. Don't be a stranger, Wilbur.

People need to investigate and not just take the word of the Mayor's Office.  I'm extremely disappointed in the Tulsa media for not asking the tough questions and for not doing any investigative reporting.  Make an Open Records request and ask to see:

1.  How much money has been transferred OUT of the General Fund (the fund used to pay salaries) in the last six months, last 12 months.  Be sure to ask where that money was transferred to.
2.  How much money came out of the General Fund and went to the BOK Center and Furlough Field.
3.  All transactions of the Sinking Fund.  You will find it went from more than $15M to under $3M in a very short time frame.
4.  All emails between Terry Simonson and Tulsa County Sheriff employees in the last 12 months.
5.  All emails between Tulsa County Sheriff employees and Dewey Bartlett, both before and after the election.
6.  Last pay stub of Terry Simonson and date of his last employment with Tulsa County.

There is a reluctance on behalf of ALL city employees to agree to pay cuts when the Mayor will not ensure no layoffs over a certain time frame.  He will only agree to rescind layoffs starting next Friday.  There isn't a single agreement with any union that says layoffs will not happen between Feb 1 and July 1.  Every employee believes Bartlett/Simonson will get their pay concessions, then layoff in the next couple of months.

And the irony of working for the City, as 367 people are getting their pink slips, the City sends out an internal email of job openings at the city, in addition to the numerous postings on the City's website.  Fools!

Sorry, but I need to be a stranger.

Wilbur, your remarks mirror those spoken to me by one of the TFD guys who has some seniority and a history of dealing with the city. He also is surprised that no one has looked into assertions by the mayor's office concerning funds. Apparently no one has questioned the veracity of the budget crisis. But, imo, this isn't about money as much as about taming ones business partner. Not union busting, just taming.


As to why the press isn't doing anything? Same process. If you want the good stories and the continued leakage of tips you best not poke the tamer in the eye. Please note: Fox was the only local channel to NOT report that Palmer had been dissed by having to read of his own resignation in the local newspaper.

Given the precipitous drop in sales-tax revenue in recent months, that alone is a very good reason that the mayor's office is not making a pledge to avoid layoffs.

It's called not making promises so you don't have to break them.

and to just add to Wilber's comments, we understand the city is in a crisis right now. What make us question this crisis is that we never get the same answer twice and we now believe the mayor has another agenda besides just weathering this financial storm. The mayor said he needed 3.4 million from the police budget and said go meet with city finance and talk to them about it. We meet with them and they say, really it's more like 2.9 million but if we don't do something the city won't be able to make payroll by the end of this fiscal year. We bring a proposal for savings of 4.4 million and no paycuts\lay-offs. The mayor rejects it and gives us a counter of a pay cut of 5.2% and a net loss of 33 officers and his proposal only saves 3.4 million. He also wants this contract to extend 18 months.  

We did want a guarantee of no more lay-off if we took their deal. The mayor said no because sales tax revenue could continue to decline.  We then asked if they could do some projecting and put some numbers in the contract about when other lay-offs would be triggered. That way, we could has some assurances that we wouldn't agree to a pay cut and then he lay-off 100-155 officers the next week. The mayor said no.  We then asked if we could have some guarantee that when things turn around (sales tax returns to XX), we could get the 5.2% back automatically and not have to negotiate for it again.  He said no.  He also has said no to this will all the other unions.  This indicates to us that the mayor does not ever intent to raise the pay of city workers back to previous levels no matter what the sales tax revenue does.

As you can imagine, this is a major problem for city workers.

Sorry, is this is rambling/confusing, the comments were just off the top of my head. I'll post more later when I have time.
 

Are you at liberty to provide any details?

Normally I would. However, we are now so close to a deal I think I'm going to hold off on any further comments. If a deal isn't struck soon, I'll post each of the offers for everyone to see.

Hang tough guys. Interesting to hear another side to the story.

Thanks MHdoublenaught singlenaught!  Looks like Dewey and Screwy are setting the union bosses up or they are not that clever and just manipulating pricing or both.

When you refer to "city workers" are you meaning all departments?

"1.  How much money has been transferred OUT of the General Fund (the fund used to pay salaries) in the last six months, last 12 months.  Be sure to ask where that money was transferred to.
2.  How much money came out of the General Fund and went to the BOK Center and Furlough Field.
3.  All transactions of the Sinking Fund.  You will find it went from more than $15M to under $3M in a very short time frame.
4.  All emails between Terry Simonson and Tulsa County Sheriff employees in the last 12 months.
5.  All emails between Tulsa County Sheriff employees and Dewey Bartlett, both before and after the election.
6.  Last pay stub of Terry Simonson and date of his last employment with Tulsa County."

---

Aren't their a few persons missing from the current portrayal of "Life near the top" of OTC?

 (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/RMiller.jpg)


Has this person finally got Mr Miller a position where he can somehow repay the $94K salary that he earned while chickee babysat the Law Office.

Are they still connected at the hip? Have they joined OTC's version of the "mile high club"?

Or have I been asleep at the wheel for so long that this is not even a possibility anymore?

What happened with that fellow named "Big Bob Dick" and the "bridge that may still be"?

Are the playing cards now in an order that could make the bridge a reality?

The unionization of the law enforcers when it was enacted brought many restrictions that are enforceable in the courts.  The mayor is sitting on the edge of the razor trying to balance the general fund to coincide the total budget that is established on dreams of increasing income each year.  The spin-off of million of dollars that go the little kingdoms in trusts hides the total cost of the outlay to the operating funds that are collected.  It hard to predict, in the migration of the citizens as they move into the burbs and establish malls collecting the sales taxes that the dreamers believed belonged in the Tulsa general fund. 

It would be a very foolish jester on the part of the mayor to agree to a reduction in the compensation package the PD receives and agree to restore it at a later point.  Tulsa’s days of the golden calf may be over for a extend time and such agreement would only create another point of controversy.  Like the vacant houses sitting on the hill at Cripple Creek, Tulsa’s gold strike could be petering out.  Bartlett’s juggling of a closed budget seems on the right track.

I feel for anyone in this falling economy loosing their job but this can happen and a college degree, unless in a specific subject is merely a sheet of paper.     

Absolutely. You got kids you better tell them to learn 2 skills then worry about college.

" Tulsa’s days of the golden calf may be over for a extend time and such agreement would only create another point of controversy. " Indeed. Not just Tulsa...

I see no reason why the Cherokees....Creeks and Osage could not kick in some monies to save these jobs....

Wow! Should we force them at gunpoint?

No, we've done that already.

Think about how much in the way of sales taxes the Creek, Osage, and Cherokees are siphoning off the City of Tulsa with their casinos.  Granted, all perfectly legal.  But if the city financial crisis bothers anyone who routinely pisses away money in the casinos, I suggest they get ahold of their compulsive tendencies, because it's not helping with public safety.

Anyone know if they collect liquor tax or sales tax on meals purchased there?  I'm not aware of any cut of gambling proceeds being shared with the city or county. 

I went to go see a friend's band play at River Spirit last weekend and couldn't believe that ground parking was completely gone and 1/2 the parking garage was full on Friday night.  Drive by any afternoon, the lots are at least 1/2 full and most of the car tags are local.  We had dinner there, no drinks, and not so much as a quarter dropped in a gaming machine.  I doubt I'll go back, I just figured out where all the smokers in Tulsa hang out these days, ghack!

Truth in advertising: "Cherokee Nation Industries: Getting Even One Degenerate Gambler At A Time"

I don't know the details, I don't know if everyone is lying and in spite of a massive drop in revenue the city really does have money and is just out to screw people, I don't know if the bok center profit statements are lies...

What I know is that this ordeal has caused most tulsans I talk with to feel the slogan "to protect and serve" refers to senior fop member's bank accounts. A lot of goodwill was lost holding onto company cars and now this fiasco.  The union has really played its hand too strong, they won all the battles but lost the pr war and failed to serve the people of tulsa or their junior members.

Enjoy your ~$5k in severance.

Between firefighter unions campaigning for people that won't look into fraud, teachers fighting tooth and nail any method to messure effectiveness, and now cops protecting and serving the union over citizens; a have a real sour taste in my mouth for "civil servants" banding together for the common good.  Can't wait for tsa to get their union up and going.  Your free to look out for your interest above the tax payers, but you should anticipate to lose some respect for doing so.

Sure says alot about the "Brotherhood of Fire and Police......"Sorry"...brother.....

+1

We are in the fields of dreams as we ask the American Indian tribes to contribute to our failures to maintain the land taken back because some thought it was a mistake for them to have it.  We stole for them their mineral rights, placed them on reservation and shot them in the back when they sought to leave.  Have they not already contributed enough as the land we now stand on was traded for the plantations they developed in the east?  Now we are talking about them picking up the shambles of our way of self-government we have made such a gross failure with.  Next we will want to place parking meters in the casinos parking lots and send our parking maids out to collect the monies from them.

The solution to the layoff would become a reality if the city issued the payroll checks to the officers and the bank notified the officer that the account was overdrawn, leaving no funds to pay the check.  It happened in the great depression and it well on its was of happening again. This is not a bank failure but a failure in the educating of people that a diploma is merely a embossed sheet of paper requiring many other facets of learning.

It was a tongue in cheek suggestion, I think, Shadows.  Though my post about Casinos being part of our sales tax revenue problem was dead serious.

Indian karhma?

City center arena a future drain? Not an asset? P+L statements, balance sh!ts that lie?

Sticking up for the new union busting rethugs in city orfice?

FOTD might be amused if he wasn't so familiar with one hard working rookie black officer turning in his badge this morning.

Screwy and Dewey, Heckle and Jeckle, whatever you call those two idiots running our sh!ty, just hurt economic development. So let's not hear their drumbeat about that....all it will result in is throwing good money after bad.

Why wasn't getting rid of our police and fire unions part of their platform? Deceivers. Their political tribe continues to devastate our country...

Just who did you wind up voting for in the last city election?  It sounded as if you were leaning toward Bartlet (sic) at one point after dooshing him up as a drug addict.  I know you thought Perkins was too much of a lush and you were beating up on Tommy some for his hystrionics.

Many officers felt like this:  They've been promised for more than a quarter of a century that this city wants to pay them the average wage of the other 10 market-peer cities, which has NEVER happened.  Its never happened in the good finacial years and its never happened in the bad financial years.  They are currently paid 9th out of the 11 cities and are 22% below the average.  To accept another 13+% decrease in compensation puts those officers in absolute last place and even further behind the average.

When you see at least two-thirds of the officers who face layoff vote for layoff, and 90% of the membership voting for layoffs, those officers were in the same boat at AFSCME employees, which is "enough is enough."  To ask these "senior FOP members" to give up way into the six figures in pension benefits for the rest of their lives is not acceptable.

The FOP also put out numerous alternatives, none of which were accepted.  The City Council even put out alternatives, none of which were accepted.

The Mayor has an agenda, and it has NOTHING to do with money.  That's just the tool he is using.

As I've said before....  It's not about the money.  Never has been.

This city has millions of dollars sitting around in accounts other then the general fund.  It is not a single employee's fault some flunky created these other accounts and said they can't be used for salaries.  Nor is it a single employee's fault the prior administration couldn't figure out how to balance the check book and spent money like it was going out of style.

I'll never understand how this city can continue to increase taxes and increase infrastructure but say none of these tax increases can be used for salaries, when it takes the salaries of people to run and maintain the increased infrastructure.

Hard to recognize the fact FOTD is honest and objective. Thanks for keeping track.
You could have said hello at Riverspirit....

Wil, you are not referring to PWD when you say, "I'll never understand how this city can continue to increase taxes and increase infrastructure but say none of these tax increases can be used for salaries, when it takes the salaries of people to run and maintain the increased infrastructure."

You didn't feel me try to give you a reach-around?  :o

Please note that Councilor John Eagleton reported that the cost of police personnel services grew by 35.1% from FY2002 and FY2010 -- almost twice the rate of inflation and more than any other segment in the city. And it's way above the other increases in the city. It's not even close. (It's all on his Web site if you want to peruse it.)

So ... if you are truly not getting paid the way you wish, maybe it's because your department hired too many cops. Perhaps there's a lot of dead weight in the TPD?

And I think it's silly for you, Wilbur, to do a lot of finger-pointing when its your department that's been eating up the money faster than any other.

Not to mention all of the TPD PR disasters that cannonfodder and others on this board have already recounted.

As crime increases, which it has done post tax cuts, it costs more money to protect and defend.

I've seen the data, and there's been little change in the crime rate since the early 2004. So that explanation doesn't fly. In fact, there was an article in the World that showed it went down last year.

Link if this demon stands corrected.

http://www.idcide.com/citydata/ok/tulsa.htm

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100127_11_A1_TulsaP62022&archive=yes

How many larceny cases were moved out of Tulsa in those years?

Come now, technically FOTD stands corrected. Philosophically, trickle down did not work well enough to lower the crime rate.

Wilbur is just wrong.

The average starting pay for a TPD officer is $43,744 and is ranked 8th among the 'universe of comparable cities'.  The average pay among the other 10 comparable cities is $45293...for a starting TPD, thats a difference of $1,550 or 3.5% below average, not 22%.

TPD officers maximum pay for that classification is $62,783 and also is ranked 8th.  The average maximum pay among the other 10 comparable cities is $65,232...thats a difference of $2,449.00 or 3.9%. 

So in the end, they have been crying over less than 4% in comparison to cities of larger size with funding from sources other than sales tax revenue which is limited.

Yes, the FOP put forward some concessions...the largest concessions of which addressed comp time and out of town vehicles, neither of which would have filled the budget hole or provide a long term fix to keep this from happening in FY10-11. 

They also offered raiding the TARE fund in the interim and tapping capital expenditure accounts...both of which are illegal without a vote of the TARE Board to amend the trust indenture or the people for a Brown Ordinance amendment allowing the re-allocation of voter approved capital expenditure funds for general fund expenses (wasnt going to happen before the end of FY09-10).

And those are straight salaries before any comparable adjustment for cost of living.  You add COL into the mix and TPD is doing quite well compared to the other cities and yet enjoys a greater percentage of non-violent and violent crime in comparison to many of those other cities.

Thank you. I was about to make that point, but forgot. Tulsa is one of the least-expensive cities to live.

I was bored watching the snow so I went and did it...

Adjusting for the cost of living between the comparable cities to Tulsa's starting pay of $43,744...Tulsa ranks 3rd out of 7 overall when you consider some of the other cities have the same cost of living adjusted starting pay as other cities. 

When you average these starting pays out, the average is $42,415...placing Tulsa's starting pay at $1,330 higher than the average. 

Basis (Cities base starting salaries once adjusted for Cost of Living to Tulsa)

$46,640  Austin, OKC, Tucson and Denver
$43,796  Colorado Springs, San Antonio
$43,744  Tulsa
$39,290  Minneapolis
$39,094  Dallas
$36,347  Kansas City
$35,262  Omaha

+1

You can't look at just salaries, you have to look at total compensation packages and compare comparable ranks to similar duties without looking at titles.  In other words, a sergeant in Tulsa is the same as a lieutenant in Oklahoma City because of their same duties.

Salaries are only part of the total compensation package.  While most police agencies provide the same parts of the package, they are done in different amounts and different percentages.  These other parts would include health insurance (what percentage/amount is paid by the employer/employee), specialty pay, uniform allowance (is the officer paid and then responsible for their own uniforms?  Or does the employer provide all uniforms and replacement uniforms), overtime rates, holiday pay,.....  The list goes on.  Once all of these things are added into the complete package, Tulsa ranks 9th and 22% behind average.  Even city officials agree.

And I'll say again...  It's not about the money.  Never has been.

Watch how much money they will "find" over the next couple of days.

Oh no! 9th! Won't someone think of the officers?!

Now that we've grounded the heli-costers perhaps we can find some funds to shore up our apparently lacking compensation package.

The arguments are well established as this is the way unions negotiate contracts.  They pick the places where they find the highest paid city employees to use as a standard for what the city should pay; including perks and retirement time.  It has come down to where it reflects a group of children saying that he has three quarters and I have only one so make him give me one of his.

Any comparison can only be based on:

Comparing the cities population: 

Their source of income:

Their total budget:

And how the budget is allotted.

In the recent article on the price of trash pickup the city of BA was noted as charging the highest fee in the area.  It was not mentioned that BA furnished plastic trash bags free of charge.   

The comparison of cities is a very poor ruler to measure the benefits derive at cost per capital when submitting comparisons of the original intent to establish police forces.  Now they have the three quarters and are demanding the other one.  Cost of living in the city is very hard to establish as a argument point when over 50% of the employees do not live in the city.

Damn that Bartlett and his running a political bureaucracy as if was a business.

Both the City and the union agreed on the list of cities.

While I agree the union probably wanted to use cities with the highest salaries, the city wanted to use cities with the lowest salaries.  Negotiations resulted in the agreed upon cities.

I'm trying really hard to remain objective on the issue, but I'm leaning more toward: the union is coming off as greedy and un-wavering in a PR battle and trying to make the city leadership look like asses, pretty much the same thing they've always done to incumbents.  Bear with me here, public perception is the viewpoint I'm trying to convey, not a lack of appreciation for the TPD nor how difficult it is to run this odd-ball confluence of egos that is the city of Tulsa.  

Where the truth lies is still up for debate in my mind.  Most definitely the planets seem to have aligned in a perfect cataclysm for the TCSD to start running some calls to make up for a sudden short-fall from TPD.  Either that or we are getting ready to find out the new admin had a pre-concieved notion that the TPD was over-staffed by a factor of 155 124 officers.

Take a look at it this way: TCSD deputies are paid considerably less and recieve far fewer benefits.  If you were stuck with the legacy costs of the last few Mayoral administrations, Dade and Broward County models for law enforcement start looking attractive, especially if the admin starts averaging salaries closer to the deputy pay scale versus a rookie TPD's pay.  I'm sure they pay their cops a whole lot more, let's not turn it into who makes what where.  

What's confusing me now is taking the simple math of starting pay scale of $44,000 and assuming all those laid off were at the bottom end only.  This does not take into account all the benefits, cost of the vehicles they drove, etc.  Salary alone comes to $2.8mm  over 5 months.  I'm quite certain the overall costs per officer are probably double that if you amortize out equipment, training, etc.  

Here is an email from one of the officers that was laid off.  I will remove his name but post the email here in an effort for people to see what he was thinking when he voted... 

As I sit here writing this, it is with mixed emotions. On the one hand, I am relieved to finally be done with what can only be explained as a roller coaster ride. For the past 2 months, I have come to work every night not knowing if I would have a job the next day. Despite this, myself and the Officers I work with have done our best to keep our heads high while working to ensure that the innocent are kept safe and that we all come home safely at the end of the night. We do this because that’s the job. We do this because if we don’t look out for each other out there, no one else will. It has been an emotional drain given the circumstances, but we have done it. For this reason, I am relieved to finally have some closure. On the other hand, I am broken inside. I am broken because over the past 3 years I have experienced things that the average person will likely never experience. I have entered buildings after hearing shots fired inside, all the while knowing that I’m going to come out ok because myself and the Officers at my side are going to do what has to be done to make sure we all go home to our families. I know without asking that as I enter a dark room looking for the bad-guy, my partner’s gun is trained on the dark hallway ahead of us, ever vigilant of the unseen danger. This is a trust and a bond that is difficult to explain to those who haven’t experienced it.

Another emotion that I am feeling is disgust. I am disgusted at the way Officers and the futures of their families have been traded and bartered like cheap baseball cards by our Mayor. I am disgusted by the fact that I found out I was being laid off through the media. I am disgusted by the fact that my Chief found out that he was “resigning” through the media. I am disgusted by the spinelessness of a Mayor elected to notify us this way rather than by facing us and delivering the news personally. I am disgusted by the way our Mayor has forced us to choose between altering the lives of the senior Officers forever, or ending the careers of 158 younger Officers.

As for the “option” given by the Mayor to “avoid layoffs,” for me it was no option. For those of you who are reading this and do not know the details of his proposal, here it is. The Mayor attempted to sell this to the media as a 5% pay cut with some concessions. However, those concessions were more furlough days, no salary step increases, the loss of the few benefits we have left, and loss of the right to negotiate for 2 years. All and all, when one takes in to account the furlough days that we have already taken this fiscal year, the total pay cut falls between 15-20% depending on how long the Officer has been employed. On top of this, the Mayor refused to guarantee that if we took this deal, he would not turn around and lay us off anyway. I am in the bottom 155 Officers and last night I voted to lay myself off. I did this because I could not in good conscience vote for a 20% decrease in the salaries of many Officers with large families who I know could not afford it. Also, our pension system is based on our average salaries towards the end of our careers. This means that if we were to have taken this cut, the Officers who are near retirement would take a substantial hit in the pension that they require to survive after they retire. I will move on and I will do what I have to do to provide for my wife and I. I will be ok. I have no doubt that there will be many departments who will recognize what we have to offer. For those who voted otherwise please do not get me wrong, I am by no means saying that everyone should have voted this way. I voted my heart and I have no doubt that you did as well and that is all that can be asked.

To my brothers and sisters who are reading this, it has been an honor working with you and it is difficult for me to imagine what next week will be like without you. You and your families will be in my prayers. In just a few hours many of us will report for our last night as Tulsa Police Officers and until the end of the shift, it will be business as usual. We will take calls and we will chase bad guys. When someone calls 911 screaming for help, we will generate complaint calls getting there as fast as we can. And when we get there, we will rush to protect someone who cannot protect themselves… with our lives if need be.

I love you guys
XXXXXXXXXXX

When this thing first started I was all for the police. I am a huge for supporting our police, fire, parks and rec, education, and all our other civil servants. Honestly as this whole affair has progressed my perception has shifted about how the police have handled it. I could be wrong about it but they have come off very self serving in the whole affiar.

OK, it's time for the police posters here to get down to the brass tacks. Sob stories by MH2010 are good and all, but it's time to deal with reality, which the FOP and officers seem reluctant to do so ...

-- If you were the mayor, what would you have done? (And don't give me unreasonable short-term answers, such as raiding the TARP fund or other funds that are dedicated to something else entirely. That is not a long-term solution. And don't give me conspiracy theories of which you have no proof of their existence. And give specifics, not generalities.)

-- If police are so poorly compensated, as you all claim, why did the TPD see the highest fund increases in the past eight years compared to other departments in the city?

-- If the police are supposedly so important in crime-fighting, why is it that the crime rate has stayed flat in the past six years despite TPD fund increases? The numbers have bounced around a bit from year to year, but the trend is basically flat.

-- I keep hearing about peer cities in salary comparisons. Does the FOP consider the cities' cost of living in these comparisons at all? Isn't it dishonest to compare, say, Dallas' police pay to Tulsa's, when it costs thousands of dollars less to live here than there? To provide a baseball analogy, it's about as silly as comparing hitting statistics from the dead-ball era in the early 1900s to the lively-ball era in the 1930s.

-- If you're truly earnest about negotiating with the mayor, don't you think it's disingenuous and inflammatory to call him an "extortionist"? I mean, you guys are in law-enforcement and presumably know the law. Don't you think it's dishonest to call someone an extortionist and it's obvious he isn't?

While the new cry is to start negotiating for next year the charter gives the mayor the power to refuse any negotiations.  “In good faith” is not always considered a standard procedure.    Don’t see it that way?   He just did it.  In view of the overdraft on the cities income he could establish the TPD starting wage at the average wage cited by the US Department of Labor.  When bringing to the table of how much cheaper it is to live in Tulsa someone should be prepared to answer why over 50% of Tulsa employees live in the outlining cities.  If they were to move back into the city the lower cost of living would offset a decrease in wages.

Who put up the million dollar ante fee may step forward.  Taking the city's unions to task is proving to be a strip down tactic.  Would believe the best solution “Let it cool off”. 

This whole thing has stunk up the city, it's a political pissing match.  The union will use any tactic, emotional manipulation, hyperbole, etc. in a blind grab for everything it can get; the Mayor tries to establish a reputation as a hard-nosed money manager ready to clean things up - both sides are arrogantly self-interested.  Any benefit or disadvantage laid on the citizens and the officers is just a side-effect of this little sandbox skirmish.

First -  I would have started by keeping all of this out of the media.  The union tried that at first, even though the mayor wouldn't, but the union was getting its a$s kicked, thus, forcing the hand of the union to make it media driven.  Neither side won.  It simply makes the citizens have to hate one side or the other.  Totally uncalled for.  Made both sides look like fools.

Second - If you expect to get the same voting results from the police that you did from fire, try and present the same packages that are even close.  What was presented to fire was so different from what was presented to police, it makes you wonder why the mayor has taken sides.  Even the fire union president said this morning on the radio had the mayor presented the same package to fire that was presented to police, fire would have voted against it.  (If you need details, ask)

Third - don't demand employees take furlough days for a year that doesn't even start for another five months when you don't know what will happen with tax revenues.

Fourth - Agree ahead of time, like you did with fire, that should the tax revenues turn around and come in close to previous projections, you will agree to restore concessions. 

Fifth - Be open to using other funds.  Don't scream being poor when you have millions of dollars sitting around that CAN be used on a temporary basis.

Sixth - Don't tell everyone you need a long term solution, then say you need a short term solution.  It makes you sound like you have no idea.

Seventh - Don't make the City Council have to call you and tell you to sign the concessions the police tried to give up in December.  We all know you were going to use those concessions as a tool in upcoming negotiations. 

Seems it is back to who is telling the story.   Seems it was reported that if the revenue was restored then the wage cut would be revisited.  There is a whale of difference to restore and revisit.

I must have missed it where the council was given any authority to instruct the mayor to do anything.  Their authority is limited to only approving or disapproving what the mayors does.   So many citizens have forgotten that the amendments they voted for was a Strong Mayor-Weak Council.  The mayor has only followed the dictates of the voters.  ;D ;D ;D  

I find it supremely ironic that the two TPD officers who regularly post on this forum proclaim themselves as conservative, yet cry loud and hard when the mayor actually does such conservative things as 1) blunting the strength of a union; 2) cutting government spending; which in turn 3) reduces the size of government.

If you're going to espouse something, watch what you wish for ...

" this little sandbox skirmish."

Rather a benign way of looking at the whole matter...

Considering; that the outcome of this whole affair will be measured partially in lives lost, damaged, or irreversibly altered.

Let's plan to revisit this in 6 to 9 months and sample a small portion of the concoction as it matures and becomes the drink of tomorrows youth.

sorry... shadow man, if this is not a complimentary likeness to the messages you have been known to send.

Just a few of the huge differences between the police and fire concession packages:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100201_11_0_Cityof875132

Apparently we have extremely different definitions of huge. I read the article and listened to Phil Evans this morning.

It effects some retirement/pension funding. At the end of the day, the officers check is the same size on either plan So if both plans end up with the same $ amount out of your check and those checks go to the same # of people as before the change, I'd say the "huge" parts are the same.

I completely agree. The firefighters now put more of their own money toward retirement for an equal amount of vacation pay. They also agreed to pay more for their cost of health insurance in exchange for less salary cuts.

It seems quite a wash.

I believe what really happened is that the police union finally realized they were losing the public relations battle and the firefighters were now seen as the good guys. It was probably compounded by the failure of all these "other cities who were recruiting Tulsa policemen" to actually offer any of them jobs.

The public turns on you and then plan B doesn't happen and suddenly the cops want to meet with the Mayor again. If I were Bartlett, I would make them kneal down and kiss my shoes at the start of the meeting.

Not withstanding the plea of the effect the job losses will have on many families in this  money crunching recession, affecting those who were least able to take the blunt on mismanagement and putting their trust in contracting with management, as a union body, are asking for another chance to open negotiations, at the public table this time.  Those who would be less effected by cutting salaries are still retaining the costly salaries they are accustom to.  If the reduction was on the higher paid salaries of the nonproductive needed city employees it might lower the numbers of hungry people as reported in the TW today.

Tulsa may soon realize that as a functioning society, in order to survive, it must equalize the conditions on how all city and private employees are compensated.  We should have learned by the public works scandal that was closed quickly by the admission of guilt and the whistle blower given prison time for blowing the whistle.  That taught him a lesson on how things are done in Tulsa.  ;D ;D ;D

 

Why are we compensating city and private employees? We could just replace them with robots.

But then you would have to pay someone to maintain the robots.

Can't win.

Robots will repair robots.

Bingo!
In the end most people will remember that the Fire Department took action to make sacrifices on behalf of the citizens from the start, while the FOP just circled the wagons and acted like drama queens.

...had to fix that up a little for you.

I thought they already have started replacing many workers and voters with robots or plain zombies because of the dumb things going on.  ;D ;D ;D

WOW!

I'm glad you deal with my trash and not my accounting.  I'll hope you don't deal with your household accounting either.

I totally agree, the firefighters' paycheck will lower to a similar amount of a police officers under the deals as presented.  But not one single penny of the firefighters' cuts affects their pensions, where most of the police cuts affect their pensions.  The effect on my pension alone is well over $100,000.  You want me to pay the equal amount the firefighters pay, then present the same package for a vote.

And, lets discuss furloughs...  they don't save the city a single penny, it just defers costs to later years.  In order to retire, a police officer/firefighter has to work so many years, which breaks down to so many days.  If you furlough that employee 8 days, he/she has to work 8 days longer before being able to retire.  That's 8 more days on the city payroll.  Make them furlough 16 days and that's simply 16 more days you pay that employee before they can retire.  Assuming that employee is making more in salary when they are closer to retirement, you are actually paying the employee more down the road then you are saving today.

Then why doesn't your union say it so plainly? I have to say your spokespeople have done a terrible job presenting your side of the discussion and the dozens of police officers who comment on the Tulsa World website haven't helped.

I stand by my statement. The public has turned on the police union. We had stories over and over again of whining saying the Mayor was not being fair and you guys all had so many other job offers.

By the way, I heard Terry Simonson say on the radio that you guys had essentially the same offer. The police turned down the same deal as the firefighters, not the administration.

Explain.

This just in.........

Prominent figure recycleMichaelPatton let's the Police and Mayor know exactly how he would deal with the budgetary crisis that predominates the world of Tulsa Politics.
In his own words he thinks the following would be acceptable behavior if he were having to deal with the Police Department.

"I would make them kneal down and kiss my shoes at the start of the meeting."

(referencing what he refers to as the Tulsa Police Departments' plan b, recycleMichael seems to be saying the police are desperate and out of options)

I have always felt the number of police in a city and how much they are paid is a direct reflection of the problems (crime, hatred, bigotry,addiction, etc.) that have evolved in the city and the lengths to which the citizenry and government are willing to go  in correcting said problems and criminal activity.

What I am learning is... that behaving in a repulsive authoritative manor, speaking in ultimatums, and making threats,  is just not limited to criminals
and criminal behavior.

To some, this approach will lead to a respected strategy for the resolution of problems.

rico

Wilbur: as RM indicates your leadership already lost your battle when they indicated there would be no further negotiations.   Now the crying towel is out with “there was a difference in the others offer so lets talk“. 

The reduction of your pension of over a $100,000 with such a small reduction in pay for 240 months of service, I am sure will cause some eye brows to be raised among the public.  One would believe when all the facts are placed on the table the war could be lost. 

That is yet another reason why I am not the Mayor.

I think the police union has been wrong in these negotiations. I have been amazed at their attacks (especially in the TulsaWorld comments sections of stories).

I respect your right to disagree with my views, but stop calling me a prominent figure to somehow imply that I can't express my views or need to hide behind a fake name like you do.

Besides, I am more of a full figure than a prominent figure.

I still say we can do without all the extra officers...

Anyone seen a spike in crime in the last week?   
I didn't think so.

Obviously they were unnecessary bloat.   

"Besides, I am more of a full figure than a prominent figure."

Cute.... Really quite a smiling remark. Some of the others are not quite appropriate for the head of a "Public Trust".. and "Board Member" of so many others.

But I am sure you will have a justification for your comments. Like....
"Teach Your Children Well".

Cant say one way or another just yet, but it seems at least some police who were transferred out of specialty units into patrol cars havent quite accepted they are patrolmen now.

There was this story:
'He’s been a Tulsa police officer for 15 years but for the last seven years Officer Phil Forbrich was in the TPD Fugitive and Warrants team and the Northeastern Oklahoma Violent Crimes Task Force.
Forbrich says he knows a bad guy when he sees one and knows a home that may be filled with a lot of drug activity.
"I'll definitely need to give them a courtesy roll by two or three times a day," says Forbrich. '
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/From-Behind-The-Desk-To-Behind-The-Wheel/n2cQvuQgVU-pe_fC7K5gNg.cspx

About the time that aired, another officer who had been a part of the Special Investigations Division, just happened to run into one of his clientèle on the street.  If you believe the police report, a man with 350 pounds of marijuana in open duffel bags in plain sight ran a stop sign in front of a TPD car.  He allegedly fled, so the SID / patrolman went to a suspects home, allegedly found some scales and arrested him.

Now, I know sometimes people get into habits, but when you are given a new job you generally let someone else do the old one.
If that's more than just coincidence, then what might be consequences of having patrolmen who may not have their heart in patrolling?

Today it was announced that Tulsa police will no longer respond to non-injury traffic accidents, or burglaries from vehicles.

I think we just moved one step closer to the Sheriff's office being called in.

Nice:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100204_11_A3_MayorD36050

Won't move money for police, but will move ALL the money for fire.

I'll ask again, in case you missed it:

Please explain how the pension changes will cost you $100,000.

And I just heard that they won't respond if the other driver doesn't have insurance. Not having insurance is a crime as is running a stop light or a red light. If those actions cause an accident a crime was committed and it should be against State laws (imo) for TPD not to respond. If they won't show for that then by gosh I should be able to run stop signs without the worry of getting a ticket too I suppose. ???

He has to wait for the Union to explain it as officers just repeat what they hear from the Union  ;D I think someone is overpaid if it's going to cost that much...

On last night's news, there were at least two instances where the TPD helicopter made promotional appearances.
One where it landed for the Make A Wish Foundation and another appearance for an officer with cancer, and while these might be worthy causes in their own right, are these non-Law Enforcement uses running up the Jet-A fuel bill to the point where we have to give up other things, like snow removal this winter?

Are we really "back-on-track" enough to be spending money like this?

I'm aware of an incident a few years back involving a former helicopter officer following a guy who had started dating the officer's ex girlfriend- with the helicopter.  Apparently they followed the guy back to his house so the officer could figure out where he lived.  The ex-girlfriend was a good friend of mine and I have no reason to suspect she would have exaggerated this. 

Apparently he called her later and apologized for buzzing her house with the chopper and following the new beau home with a spot light on him.  Needless to say the intimidation worked, the new guy decided he didn't want to go out with her after all.  She also related a couple of stories about him flying over his own house to make sure his kids were home on a fairly regular basis.  That might have explained some extra chopper activity around my neighborhood at one point as I lived about six blocks from the officer as it turned out ::)

I think if you give a city employee a vehicle it's eventually going to be abused or used for personal errands.  It's one thing in a cruiser but in a $500 to $750 an hour Jet Ranger that really pisses me off.

The Tulsa Police chopper cost $1,250 an hour to operate.