Keystone XL Pipeline

[heironymouspasparagus]

Unfortunately risk is part of supplying energy needs no matter what form of energy is used.  The best we can do is mitigate those risks with smarter technologies like pipeline, until our technologies take us beyond the need for midstream transmission.  Unfortunately to achieve this level of safety and efficiency it is necessary to overcome harmful political BS.

And yet, any time that mitigation is discussed, the RWRE's scream bloody murder about the "unwarranted government intrusion" that would make use of those technologies you advanced - things like mandating internal inspections on ALL pipelines.  Mandating weld inspections on ALL pipelines as they are built - said technology being available since the mid 80's for plastic and before that for metal!!  But according to the industry of the 80's, 90's and probably even now - that would be too expensive and "add cost" - plaintive bleat moment from industry.  And Federal DOT goes along with it for the most part SINCE the early 80's.  (You do remember our frenzy to deregulate everything in the world - or were you too young for awareness at that time?)

It was and mostly still is, a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing - if we don't inspect, then we don't know the metal is rotten, so it can't be our fault when a pipe explodes.

Would require new pipelines to achieve that reasonable goal??  Oh, shucks....but wait...isn't that just what is being discussed here?  Why, yes, I believe it is!!  

[RecycleMichael]

Unfortunately to achieve this level of safety and efficiency it is necessary to overcome harmful political BS.

It doesn't surprise me that is your view. Spills and massive pollution are just harmful political BS.

[Conan71]

And yet, any time that mitigation is discussed, the RWRE's scream bloody murder about the "unwarranted government intrusion" that would make use of those technologies you advanced - things like mandating internal inspections on ALL pipelines.  Mandating weld inspections on ALL pipelines as they are built - said technology being available since the mid 80's for plastic and before that for metal!!  But according to the industry of the 80's, 90's and probably even now - that would be too expensive and "add cost" - plaintive bleat moment from industry.  And Federal DOT goes along with it for the most part SINCE the early 80's.  (You do remember our frenzy to deregulate everything in the world - or were you too young for awareness at that time?)

It was and mostly still is, a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing - if we don't inspect, then we don't know the metal is rotten, so it can't be our fault when a pipe explodes.

Would require new pipelines to achieve that reasonable goal??  Oh, shucks....but wait...isn't that just what is being discussed here?  Why, yes, I believe it is!!  

Absolute BS.  The pipeline industry operates under strict guidelines and PM schedules, it’s in their own self-interest to do so.  Thickness and joint testing is a part of regular PM’s on pipelines as well as full penetration weld tests on every last joint weld on a pipeline under construction.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Absolute BS.  The pipeline industry operates under strict guidelines and PM schedules, it’s in their own self-interest to do so.  Thickness and joint testing is a part of regular PM’s on pipelines as well as full penetration weld tests on every last joint weld on a pipeline under construction.

Absolutely not.

What fantasy world are you in??  Maybe for the last few years - VERY few!! - it has been improving, but I have been directly involved with both DOT AND oil/gas companies with products that do EXACTLY what I was talking about - and that "head in the sand" is EXACTLY how it works!!   Or hopefully "worked"....

One would hope "enlightened self-interest" would be a major driving force in the absence of government regulation.  Kind of like with the banking industry here a few years ago.... oh, wait...!!  But as we see on a fairly regular basis, there are explosions, leaks, etc.  Because for whatever reason, their PM is just inadequate, or the installation was flawed to start, or they just look the other way.  By far and away the biggest problem is the age of the pipeline infrastructure - a LOT of it is way past the design age, and not being proactively replaced before the catastrophic event.  Else, there would be NO catastrophic event....there would be new, improved metal/plastic, piggable/inspectable pipe!

And some very good companies here in town have been working hard to get the pipeline owner/operators to clean up their act - for decades - places like McElroy Manufacturing and TDW, et al.  Hopefully they, and others like them, are making an impact and owner/operator's ARE starting to understand it is in their self-interest.

I thought you worked closely with pipeline people??

[Gaspar]

It doesn't surprise me that is your view. Spills and massive pollution are just harmful political BS.

No.  Representing the pipeline industry as more dangerous than trucking oil in 4,000 tankers a day across the surface of the Earth is harmful political BS.   

If the impact on the environment is actually your concern, instead of defending political failures for their positions, you would be celebrating that the Keystone South translates into far less risk of spill and a massive reduction in pollution.  Not to mention safer roads and rails.

It may be the single greenest project completed in the last 5 years, reducing carbon output far more than anything the empty suit has delivered.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7hyUucbmj4[/youtube]

 

[heironymouspasparagus]

No.  Representing the pipeline industry as more dangerous than trucking oil in 4,000 tankers a day across the surface of the Earth is harmful political BS.   

If the impact on the environment is actually your concern, instead of defending political failures for their positions, you would be celebrating that the Keystone South translates into far less risk of spill and a massive reduction in pollution.  Not to mention safer roads and rails.

Trucks don't do a lot of long haul oil trucking.  Trucks are usually at gathering stations bringing to a terminal, then from the refinery to the local distribution network.  Lots of trucks, with pipeline or train in between 'nodes'.

[Conan71]

Absolutely not.

What fantasy world are you in??  Maybe for the last few years - VERY few!! - it has been improving, but I have been directly involved with both DOT AND oil/gas companies with products that do EXACTLY what I was talking about - and that "head in the sand" is EXACTLY how it works!!   Or hopefully "worked"....

One would hope "enlightened self-interest" would be a major driving force in the absence of government regulation.  Kind of like with the banking industry here a few years ago.... oh, wait...!!  But as we see on a fairly regular basis, there are explosions, leaks, etc.  Because for whatever reason, their PM is just inadequate, or the installation was flawed to start, or they just look the other way.  By far and away the biggest problem is the age of the pipeline infrastructure - a LOT of it is way past the design age, and not being proactively replaced before the catastrophic event.  Else, there would be NO catastrophic event....there would be new, improved metal/plastic, piggable/inspectable pipe!

And some very good companies here in town have been working hard to get the pipeline owner/operators to clean up their act - for decades - places like McElroy Manufacturing and TDW, et al.  Hopefully they, and others like them, are making an impact and owner/operator's ARE starting to understand it is in their self-interest.

I thought you worked closely with pipeline people??

Yes I do work closely with them, that’s why I can call your accusations of systemic "looking the other way" complete and utter BS with absolute confidence.  It is not in the interest and never has been in the interest of a pipeline company to shepherd faulty and dangerous equipment, that’s why they have employed companies like TD Williamson to pig their pipes for decades as well as companies like IRIS NDT for weld and thickness inspections.  TDW does not have any sort of enforcement authority to pressure anyone to “clean up their act”, all they do is provide pipeline inspection and repair services.

Mistakes happen.  Human error happens.  It happens under the closest scrutiny and laboratory-like environments.  Inspectors don’t always catch that last loose rivet or wire chafe on a new 767. 

Mistakes cost lives and millions in profits, that is why it’s always been in the best self-interest of pipelines to do everything possible to prevent leaks.  Much like it’s in the best self-interest of American Airlines to keep the wings on all it’s planes, or in my case to make sure repairs to pressure vessels have been done properly and been properly tested prior to being put back in use.

I’m not sure where your deep-seated hatred of corporate America started, but it’s forced you to some completely absurd conclusions.

[Gaspar]

Trucks don't do a lot of long haul oil trucking.  Trucks are usually at gathering stations bringing to a terminal, then from the refinery to the local distribution network.  Lots of trucks, with pipeline or train in between 'nodes'.

Sure. . .and rail is only about 4X more likely to encounter spill and environmental disaster than pipeline.


So again, my point is that the "environmentalist" should rejoice that the Keystone South is reducing that risk SIGNIFIGANTLY, but unfortunately most "environmentalists" simply use the moniker for political purposes, or worse as subterfuge.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes I do work closely with them, that’s why I can call your accusations of systemic "looking the other way" complete and utter BS with absolute confidence.  It is not in the interest and never has been in the interest of a pipeline company to shepherd faulty and dangerous equipment, that’s why they have employed companies like TD Williamson to pig their pipes for decades as well as companies like IRIS NDT for weld and thickness inspections.  TDW does not have any sort of enforcement authority to pressure anyone to “clean up their act”, all they do is provide pipeline inspection and repair services.

Mistakes happen.  Human error happens.  It happens under the closest scrutiny and laboratory-like environments.  Inspectors don’t always catch that last loose rivet or wire chafe on a new 767.  

Mistakes cost lives and millions in profits, that is why it’s always been in the best self-interest of pipelines to do everything possible to prevent leaks.  Much like it’s in the best self-interest of American Airlines to keep the wings on all it’s planes, or in my case to make sure repairs to pressure vessels have been done properly and been properly tested prior to being put back in use.

I’m not sure where your deep-seated hatred of corporate America started, but it’s forced you to some completely absurd conclusions.

Absolute confidence of believing a crock of crap....

Mistakes do happen...like the nuke plant I did some work in near Toronto, where after their near meltdown, they checked the records and found over 14,000 weld xrays for the nuke, but when they cut it open, they actually counted a little over 4,000 welds.  Somebody made some extra good money on that deal.

True - TDW has no enforcement, and only very limited effectiveness in lobbying the Federal DOT to create regulations that would help the safety records of pipelines.  Too bad, 'cause if mandatory inspection were required a long time ago, the record would be even better.  What did he say?  Implying they have a good safety record??  Could it be?  Yes, pipelines do have a good safety record - and it could, and should be better!!  The costs to make big improvements are modest compared to the benefits.

TDW and McElroy BOTH had very low cost inspection tools for plastic pipe welds - back in the mid 80's!!! - that, if properly used ELIMINATED faulty welds on plastic gas pipe - 100% guarantee - IF used properly, per instructions, and if faulty welds were removed and redone.  Taking literally less than 5 minutes per faulty weld, and requiring NO extra material cost, and only about $0.001 of 'extra' electricity for the new butt fusion weld.  But to sell these products to pipeline and construction companies, DOT regulations would have been required.  Why??  Because, NONE would voluntarily go ahead and do what would have given them a 100% fault free plastic pipeline.  They literally said "if we don't inspect, then we are less likely to be held liable, since we didn't know there was a problem...".  Hopefully that has changed in the last few years.


As for corporate America - well, I don't have a hatred of it - the corporation is a magnificent tool that has allowed the people of this country to do magnificent things.  But as with any tool, when misused - like guns are occasionally misused - the results are NOT good, but do actual harm.  I don't blame the tool, but the mis-users of that tool.  I have mentioned a couple of local companies in this thread that are fine examples of the good that can be done with this tool - and there are many others in Tulsa!

I have also mentioned others that are the mis-users who harm people in their headlong rush to greed, avarice, and actual criminal activity - John Pickle company would be a prime example - keeping people as slaves qualifies as 'harm' to me!   That company was a pressure vessel company - did you have interaction with them??  Business??



Or in the best self-interest of all the big banks to act properly....  we have seen time and time again that without real oversight and regulatory environment and enforcement, "best self-interest" always goes to cutting costs/corners and getting the big bonus for top management.  Oh...here's one - Ford Pinto!  And Abercrombie and Fitch CEO pay - when he made $125 million for the year in deductible for the company pay, while the company made $250 thousand for the year!!












 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Now that we have gone WAY off topic, I have a question related to the pipeline....


By definition, one of the main criteria in approving this pipeline is that it be in the nation's interest.  Exactly HOW is this thing in the national interest??

Leave out any possible adverse effects, like pollution, line breaks, etc....  just what are the 'positives' for this - how is this going to help the US? 




Additional information;
- fewer than 4,000 people in the US will be employed building it for (much) less than 2 years.
- fewer people will be employed to work in an ongoing basis after construction than Seattle Seahawks have on their roster.
- the majority of the oil is most likely to be refined and sent to China.
- the people of Canada don't want it going just a little bit west to British Columbia, either as crude or refined product, where it could be more easily - less expensively - shipped to China.
- the pipeline adds nothing to decrease our energy independence on foreign suppliers (Canada is a foreign country, for the RWRE who have no knowledge of, or sense of history.)

[heironymouspasparagus]

Sure. . .and rail is only about 4X more likely to encounter spill and environmental disaster than pipeline.


So again, my point is that the "environmentalist" should rejoice that the Keystone South is reducing that risk SIGNIFIGANTLY, but unfortunately most "environmentalists" simply use the moniker for political purposes, or worse as subterfuge.

Trucking has the lowest amount of tonnage with the highest incident rate... yep, as I mentioned a little earlier, pipelines are and have been very good.  And can and should be better! 

Trucking is not a great way to move much of anything....trains have it beat by orders of magnitude!  But we are so much into "immediate gratification" that we are like little children who throw temper tantrums when they don't get what they want when they want it.  But in late 1800's, rail became SO powerful that the Fed had to move to reduce it's power.  Hence the big rise of trucking in the early part of the 20th century.  It's a balancing act to keep our "tools" under control, due to the occasional incidence of mis-use of those tools.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I saw this somewhere and immediately thought of the RWRE in this country....

[Townsend]

Keystone XL Work Already Completed in Oklahoma

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/keystone-xl-work-already-completed-oklahoma

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma leaders are praising the renewed momentum in Congress to approve the northern leg of the Keystone XL pipeline, although the project will have only a minimal economic impact on the Sooner State.

Construction of the Oklahoma portion of the pipeline is already finished. If approved, the 36-inch-diameter pipeline will carry crude oil from Canada to U.S. refineries in the Midwest and Gulf Coast.

The current debate in Congress is centered on the proposed northern leg, which would run from Hardesty, Alberta, Canada, through Montana and South Dakota to Steele City, Nebraska.

The Gulf Coast leg of the project began carrying oil earlier this year from the north-central Oklahoma town of Cushing to refineries in the Gulf Coast.

So I guess anyone pushing for this as a massive jobs creator for Oklahoma could move on to the next project.

[patric]

So I guess anyone pushing for this as a massive jobs creator for Oklahoma could move on to the next project.

The Oklahoma leg was already in place before the Canadian firm started its Eminent Domain land-grab in the other states.

Jobs?  It will sustain some existing upper-tier union workers, and a rush of temporary construction positions.

[Townsend]

The Oklahoma leg was already in place before the Canadian firm started its Eminent Domain land-grab in the other states.

Jobs?  It will sustain some existing upper-tier union workers, and a rush of temporary construction positions.

Markwayne was vocal about it just a few days ago.