Keystone XL Pipeline

[RecycleMichael]

My main issue is that we used eminent domain to take property from United States citizens to allow a Canadian company to pipe their oil to the Gulf of Mexico to sell to other parts of the world.

Yes, building the pipeline made jobs for Americans and was good for states like Oklahoma. But the path selected for the pipe installation only cared about what was the cheapest route for the Canadian company.

It just seemed, and still does an odd decision. But since oil companies rule America, it happened.

[Gaspar]

My main issue is that we used eminent domain to take property from United States citizens to allow a Canadian company to pipe their oil to the Gulf of Mexico to sell to other parts of the world.

Yes, building the pipeline made jobs for Americans and was good for states like Oklahoma. But the path selected for the pipe installation only cared about what was the cheapest route for the Canadian company.

It just seemed, and still does an odd decision. But since oil companies rule America, it happened.

Lets be clear. . .

1. TransCanada is a publicly traded company on the NYSE that is headquartered in Alberta.  The company is owned by shareholders, and those shareholders include most everyone with a 401K that contains a decent mutual fund.  I own, and many others, on this forum, own TransCanada.  Untied States Citizens have a large stake in TransCanada. Not to mention that TransCanada employes thousands and thousands of American Citizens.

2. They are not transporting "Their oil" to the gulf.  They are leasing pipeline to oil producers here in Oklahoma, Texas, and the surrounding states, so that WE can sell our oil to whomever the hell we please, without paying exorbitant transportation fees or incurring the massive environmental liability and expenses that come with that. 

3. While I am not a fan of eminent domain, they are not taking land from people to build a hotel.  The vast majority of land was acquired through direct purchase.  Eminent domain was only used in a few cases to grant easements from reluctant ranchers.  The property still remains under the control and for use by the property owner. Once the pipeline was built, TransCanada was required to return the land to its former natural state after placement of the line 7 feet deep.  The only changes are that trees will not be planted directly over the line so that it can be flown regularly as required by EPA regs.

4. Efficient and safe transportation of energy is in the best interest of TransCanada, because it yields the highest profit.  It is also in the best interest of the consumer because it yields the lowest price point. It is also in the best interest of the independent energy producer because it yields the lowest transmission cost, and least liability.  The only person it is not serve are those with political ambitions courting specific groups.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Fast forward a few hundred years and we will be extracting energy from heavy water, and the bonds between the atoms themselves.

The really big question is; why are we waiting on that??

[Gaspar]

The really big question is; why are we waiting on that??

That's rather easy to answer.  We are not there yet. 

Deuterium or heavy water only accounts for about 1/3000 of every water molecule, and the density varies.  In order to make a fuel source, we would need to concentrate Deuterium by shortening the ionic bonds.  This is possible and has been achieved in many laboratories, but it currently requires significant energy.  Once we master this, and make the process less energy intensive, we have a reliable fuel source.

Then. . .we need a new kind of reactor that breaks atomic bonds using laser or other means.  The resulting energy released is significant, and the waste product is hydrogen and water. The process sounds easy but it requires the fissile substance to be compressed beyond what we are currently capable of.  Imagine a half inch square cube of deuterium ice that weighs 12 tons.  Another option is Deuterium-Tritium bonding or fusion, but tritium is artificial and has to be created in significant amounts for this to work, and we don't know how to do that yet, not to mention how we control such a reaction.

Sure there may be another way, but we don't know what that is yet.  The energy is there, and the ocean is filled with the necessary resource.  In fact there is more energy in a gallon of seawater than in 300 gallons of gasoline.  We are getting close, and I'm willing to bet we see this in our lifetimes.

[RecycleMichael]

Because they have stock owned by people of the world don't make them a Canadian company? Or is this just your way spinning this away from the truth?

We already have pipelines to the gulf. Why fight for another? Using the power of government taking to profit one company over another is something I thought you would normally be opposed to. But then I remembered that you are counting on them profits and your greed easily justifies any over reach.

At least if it was a hotel (and what the hell does it matter if it a hotel or a pipeline) it would offer a chance to contribute to tourist dollars. Or maybe you are planning to give tours of the pipes.

[Gaspar]

So lets make some comparisons. For the sake of argument, we'll just look at 30 or so other companies where billions of dollars was taken from citizens to fund energy development.  All of these companies are now bankrupt, and those that are publicly traded have investors who lost thousands (I personally lost thousands in Evergreen).  All of these were heavily promoted by the president as the success stories of green energy.  They also constituted a large pool of political donors.  The only people who benefited from the funds stolen from the American people were the CEOs, Owners, and officers who were able to extract their fortunes before the public was aware of the scams.

Evergreen Solar ($25 million)
SpectraWatt ($500,000)
Solyndra ($535 million)
Beacon Power ($43 million)
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)
A123 Systems ($279 million)
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)
Range Fuels ($80 million)
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

So, if we make a comparison, none of these companies provided a sustainable return in either new technology, energy efficiency, jobs, or investment to the people of the Untied States, and many left vacant facilities and environmental disasters in their wake that required a secondary investment to clean up.

Conversely, TransCanada, employs thousands of Americans and continues to grow.  They are not transferring wealth from the public to fill their coffers or the pockets of their officers, on the contrary they are adding to the economy and building wealth for American Citizens.  There is indeed quite a bit of demand for the added bandwidth from Oklahoma to the gulf, and the pipeline translates into 4,000 less tankers over the roads and rails EACH DAY!

Unlike the companies above, the keystone represents a reduction in the total carbon footprint associated with the transmission of energy, and may represent the greenest project completed during president Obama's terms as monarch.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of eminent domain, but in this instance they are not confiscating any property, and the public benefit seems well justified.  I mean it's not like they are using billions in tax money to pay off political donors or anything. 

If creating jobs, increasing the investment and retirement income for Americans, reducing the cost of energy production, decreasing the risk of environmental disaster, lowering the carbon footprint of energy transmission, increasing public safety, and moving us even closer to more efficient means of energy production is greed, then count me in!

[RecycleMichael]

Explain how you can make the argument to reduce our reliance on foreign oil while using tax dollars to help sell domestic oil overseas.

[Gaspar]

I didn't make that argument.  Are we changing the subject? 

Forgive me, I'm just trying to keep up.

[heironymouspasparagus]

So lets make some comparisons. For the sake of argument, we'll just look at 30 or so other companies where billions of dollars was taken from citizens to fund energy development.  All of these companies are now bankrupt, and those that are publicly traded have investors who lost thousands (I personally lost thousands in Evergreen).  All of these were heavily promoted by the president as the success stories of green energy.  They also constituted a large pool of political donors.  The only people who benefited from the funds stolen from the American people were the CEOs, Owners, and officers who were able to extract their fortunes before the public was aware of the scams.

Evergreen Solar ($25 million)
SpectraWatt ($500,000)
Solyndra ($535 million)
Beacon Power ($43 million)
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)
A123 Systems ($279 million)
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)
Range Fuels ($80 million)
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

So, if we make a comparison, none of these companies provided a sustainable return in either new technology, energy efficiency, jobs, or investment to the people of the Untied States, and many left vacant facilities and environmental disasters in their wake that required a secondary investment to clean up.

Conversely, TransCanada, employs thousands of Americans and continues to grow.  They are not transferring wealth from the public to fill their coffers or the pockets of their officers, on the contrary they are adding to the economy and building wealth for American Citizens.  There is indeed quite a bit of demand for the added bandwidth from Oklahoma to the gulf, and the pipeline translates into 4,000 less tankers over the roads and rails EACH DAY!

Unlike the companies above, the keystone represents a reduction in the total carbon footprint associated with the transmission of energy, and may represent the greenest project completed during president Obama's terms as monarch.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of eminent domain, but in this instance they are not confiscating any property, and the public benefit seems well justified.  I mean it's not like they are using billions in tax money to pay off political donors or anything. 

If creating jobs, increasing the investment and retirement income for Americans, reducing the cost of energy production, decreasing the risk of environmental disaster, lowering the carbon footprint of energy transmission, increasing public safety, and moving us even closer to more efficient means of energy production is greed, then count me in!

And what does ALL of that add up to??  I am not gonna bother, cause it ain't that big compared to a couple of other things that are at least as relevant as that list - probably more so -

Exxon profits 2012   $45 billion.

Halliburton no-bid contracts    $95 billion.

[RecycleMichael]

Halliburton no-bid contracts    $95 billion.

It is amazing that we gave Halliburton (run for years by Dick Cheney) $95 billion in contracts without bidding and republicans never said a word, but a few billion in tax incentives to alternative energy companies is suddenly outrageous.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It is amazing that we gave Halliburton (run for years by Dick Cheney) $95 billion in contracts without bidding and republicans never said a word, but a few billion in tax incentives to alternative energy companies is suddenly outrageous.

And what makes anyone think that Cheney is still not knee-deep in the hoopla...??  Every once in a while, this country gets a little glimpse of the "man behind the curtain" thing going on - make famous in The Wizard of Oz - and two somewhat recent versions of that are Dick Cheney and George H W Bush.  Both significant players in the background games....  Wow!  There's a name for a book and movie - "The Background Games", copyright 2014, HeironymousPAsparagus.

Both long term participants.  And both moving more into the truly public space than is the norm.

Full disclosure - for one of the Bilderberg kind of guys, H W was ok and very sharp.  His understanding of the economy was vastly superior to Reagan's, and I think it was a fluke and surprise to the "Background Guys" (also, copyright 2014, HeironymousPAsparagus) that Reagan won instead of one of the chosen ones.  As was Jimmie Carter's win before that.... this country is full of surprises from time to time.

[Gaspar]

It is amazing that we gave Halliburton (run for years by Dick Cheney) $95 billion in contracts without bidding and republicans never said a word, but a few billion in tax incentives to alternative energy companies is suddenly outrageous.

Ok, since we are going to take the "it's all Bush's fault" route.

President Obama awarded $105.8 billion in 2009 after becoming president and $115.2 billion in no-bid contracts after his re-election in 2012.  And, he continued the no-bid relationship between his administration and Halliburton.

Most of these of course were political donors, and some were quite hilarious amounts. For instance, this pitiful logo cost $100K. Designed by a donor.  Heck of an investment.  Give a couple thousand and get $100K for a few moments of your time.


Obama donor Ron Perelman received $443 million to deliver 1.7 million doses of smallpox vaccine to combat a non-existant threat.

Then of course we have the Canadian company CGI run by Obama campaign donor George Schindler that started at a little over $300 million and was rewarded again for failure with extensions.  Currently the cost is estimated at over $1 Billion. The extension of the contract also ended in failure so another no-bid contract was awarded this month to Accenture for $90 million.  This is rather funny when you think that it only cost a few million to build sites like Amazon, and Ebay who turn tens of millions of transactions every day!

Sorry, but using the "but Bush. . ." or "Halliburton did it. . ." excuses really don't fly under this president.  Bush and Cheney were amateurs when it came to no-bid contracts and awarding donors for campaign money.

[RecycleMichael]

TransCanadian pipeline explosion leaves thousands without power in bitter cold...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-pipeline-explosion-cuts-heat-to-4-000-amid-extreme-cold-1.2511585

Of course, this could never happen here.

[Conan71]

TransCanadian pipeline explosion leaves thousands without power in bitter cold...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-pipeline-explosion-cuts-heat-to-4-000-amid-extreme-cold-1.2511585

Of course, this could never happen here.

NATURAL GAS pipeline.  Hell, my farts are explosive.

[Gaspar]

TransCanadian pipeline explosion leaves thousands without power in bitter cold...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-pipeline-explosion-cuts-heat-to-4-000-amid-extreme-cold-1.2511585

Of course, this could never happen here.

Sure it could.  We already have tons of high pressure Natural gas pipelines crisscrossing the state.  In fact there is a big one down by 91st (I think it's around 93rd and sheridan) that goes all the way across South Tulsa.  Been there for decades.

Anywhere you concentrate energy, you get risk.  Doesn't matter what form it is in.  Coal silos and mines used to explode in the 20s.  Thousands electrocute themselves every year from high power lines.  Fiskers burst into flames. 

These things can and will happen!

But. . .

According to the Federal Motor Safety Administration there were 273,000 tractor trailers involved in crashes in 2011 (last year with data).  60,000 resulted in injury and a 3,341 in death. In fact there is actually some great data on the risks both environmental and human.



Unfortunately risk is part of supplying energy needs no matter what form of energy is used.  The best we can do is mitigate those risks with smarter technologies like pipeline, until our technologies take us beyond the need for midstream transmission.  Unfortunately to achieve this level of safety and efficiency it is necessary to overcome harmful political BS.