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Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: waterboy on August 27, 2008, 08:38:50 am I just drove 800 miles to northern Missouri and back through Kansas City on 44, 71, 35. Had to stop in KC cause I missed an exit (misread a sign). I know a lot of you drive the area and I would like your opinion.
Mine is that Missouri roads were superior to Oklahoma roads. They were smooth, well marked, well maintained and had minimal construction disruptions. Most were asphalt. I drove through KC around noon and then again around 5-5:30 pm and there was minimal traffic tie ups and only then around entrance/exits, otherwise smooth flowing traffic. Once I left the state of OK the roads were noticeably smoother, the drivers immensely more competent and courteous. Even the truckers had less attitude. Tulsa looked and felt real bad when I returned. Before we spend billions or even a half billion on reconstructing our city streets I think the mayor or the governor ought to assign a task force to visit the state and report back on how a similar state, with similar weather conditions in the region is outperforming us in transportation. As far as the competency and attitude of the drivers, well, we're closer to Texas. Can't do much about that.[;)] Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Townsend on August 27, 2008, 08:47:58 am I'm guessing and I don't mean to bring in the political thing but maybe their representatives spend more time getting road funding and less time blocking money to fund projects...cough cough. It's going to go somewhere; it'd be great if more of the highway funding came this way.
I'm talking way out of school but it's the impression I get. Hell, Stevens just won his primary in Alaska and he's under indictment so it can't be damaging to his career to bring in funding for his state. C'mooooooooon pork, suuuuuu PIG. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: joiei on August 27, 2008, 08:55:59 am If you got around Kansas City during rush hour with minimal tie ups then consider yourself lucky. Were you on 435 through Overland Park? They have been rebuilding that road for about 4 years now. And Downtown is much closer to DFW traffic wise than anything Tulsa can come up with. I go up to KC fairly regularly and try to avoid rush hour if I can.
Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: grahambino on August 27, 2008, 09:07:27 am What does Missouri know that we don't?
Maybe, its how to elect representatives and senators that aren't ridiculous, pandering ideologues that have more pressing concerns than pretending to be a 'Judeo-Christian warrior', attending the next happy hour or playing grab-donkey in hotel elevators... Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: waterboy on August 27, 2008, 09:26:14 am I might have been lucky, but both noon hour and evening rush? Travelled 435 West which is curiously on the east side of downtown, so maybe missed the suburbs or Overland route. Driving through is certainly different than trying to commute home and back.
I noticed they had lanes that exitted into some burbs that were marked with double white lines. Drivers were cautioned not to re-enter that lane once they left it. I guess that keeps tempers from flaring from those cutting in and out but the result was one mile long line of traffic being headed up by a dump truck that was moving slowly. Seriously, I wonder how their investment per mile of road maintenance compares to ours. Oh, yeah, also noticed that a mega WalMart was deceased[}:)] and Barrister Mall was boarded up. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Gaspar on August 27, 2008, 10:01:06 am There is actually a scientific explanation. I'm not saying it's the only explanation, but it is one that affects Oklahoma.
We have extensive periods of extreme heat and extensive periods of ground frost. Asphalt is simply not a good surface agent for this climate. What makes it worse, is that we are prone to very compressed climate shifts. We can go in the spring from 20 degrees to 70 degrees in the course of a day or two. A 70 degree air temperature on a sunny day will return an 80 to 90 degree asphalt surface temperature, while the soil and substrate just inches below is still very cold. This rapid surface expansion causes the asphalt to fracture. Add a little water and another quick freeze and the road is toast. SemGroup had an asphalt product that they had engineered to combat this, but the future of that product is probably gone. Our best bet is to move away from asphalt as a surface product. The problem is that other materials are more expensive, however in the long run temporary asphalt surfaces are far more expensive. Asphalt, its maintenance and replacement, are a huge industry in this "climate region" of the country. We will be hard pressed to escape it. It's not that we don't spend enough money on our roads, it's just that other places don't have to spend as much. (http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/gardenplansireland/frost-zone-map-usa-north-america-im.gif) Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Friendly Bear on August 27, 2008, 10:13:35 am quote: Since statehood, Oklahoma's U.S. Representatives and Sinators have had two primary constituency groups which they served: 1) Oil and Gas industry. 2) Cattle Industry. They have been very successful in meeting the needs of those two groups with tax breaks galore, bargaining away through Favors-Trading more Federal dollars for local roads, post offices, Federal Offices, etc. in order to serve the energy and cattle industries. Thus, since statehood, Oklahoma has not gotten its share of the Earmarks or Pork Barrel spending. And, we were a continuous Federal Fuel Tax donor state for many decades, getting back only about 80 cents for every dollar sent to D.C. Sinator Inhofe actually belatedly got some federal funding a few years ago to widen I-44. A mere 25 years too late, after total Skelly Drive gridlock 2X per day. I-44 widening is now slowly proceeding at a virtual SNAIL's PACE so that Bob Poe can help maximize the highway cost to the taxpayers. That's progress. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: waterboy on August 27, 2008, 10:15:52 am Gaspar, that's very plausible. Perhaps the underlying limestone in Missouri makes some difference as well. Whoever devises a more flexible, temperature resistant process or material is going to be very popular in this state. However, weening ourselves off of current vendors of asphalt will be difficult if not impossible as long as they have undue legislative influence.
Are there no other states with our freeze/thaw rapid temperature change dynamics? Are they doing any better? New Mexico or Kansas come to mind. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Chris on August 27, 2008, 10:20:16 am quote: Double-white lines are usually for HOV lanes and it's supposed to be illegal to cross them when they're solid. From cities I've been in that have them only about half the people driving seem to abide by that or the law requiring 2 or more people to be in their car. I think our roads are in such poor condition because of several reasons including extreme climate shifts, poor mantanance, and the use of poor materials for our climate. It seems like we should be researching surfacing materials and testing them for the Oklahoma climate. For some reason I kind of doubt we're doing that. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Townsend on August 27, 2008, 10:54:51 am quote: Nope, can't even make it through your gibberish when you respond to my post. Shadows wannabe. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Gaspar on August 27, 2008, 11:56:41 am quote: Correct, and yes there are some other places with the same problem. Northern Arkansas, and some parts of Northeastern Texas. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: rwarn17588 on August 27, 2008, 12:16:12 pm Kudos to Gaspar's theory. I think it's a good one (and yes, the roads in northern Arkansas and far southern Missouri are notoriously erratic).
Here's another factor: population. Missouri has at least 2 million more people than Oklahoma, but about the same square mileage. An additional 2 million or so people paying into the state's coffers would lead to more money for roads. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Hometown on August 27, 2008, 12:16:57 pm If I recall there was a man from ODOT on tv recently talking about how asphalt has become prohibitively expensive, when it can be found, and that concrete was now less expensive and that the state would be shifting to concrete.
Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: cannon_fodder on August 27, 2008, 03:27:22 pm 1) +1 on Missouri having better roads (freeways, highways, and streets)
I noted a conscious effort on their part to redo many roads in the last decade or so. Piece by piece huge sections of road were repaved. Part of it might be that they just decided to get the job done. 2) Also +1 on Oklahoma being hard on roads Moisture & temperature swings are the hardest things on roads. Oklahoma has both, in spades. Iowa has frozen winters. Generally, when it freezes for the winter it's frozen. California has mild winters, the ground does not freeze. Oklahoma... has freezing and thawing every night. Likewise, New Mexico has no moisture. In general, their roads are amazing. The ground under them does not expand like a sponge and then contract. The freezing and unfreezing can not use the water to force cracks apart. Our mixed soil certainly doesnt help either. 3) Other states have areas that suffer our same fate, but as a whole we are in a bad geological and meteorological state for roads. Add heavy use (we drive trucks and trucks pass through) and it gets even worse. Just for fun, combine large rural areas and dense urban areas to contend with. All around, we will have to pay more for roads... but it can be done. We are not SO much worse off than everyone else and everyone else has challenges also... so we should be able to cope. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: inteller on August 27, 2008, 03:45:42 pm quote: I call bull****. Drive over to Arkansas (which is in the same climate zone as Tulsa) and the roads are better there. Because they have a roads PLAN. And it is at the state level, which is seriously lacking here. OKC will screw us over any chance they can get, while moving an entire highway down in OKC. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Hoss on August 27, 2008, 03:49:03 pm quote: Response from the OKC lurkers in 3...2....1.... Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: ARGUS on August 28, 2008, 08:49:59 am Gaspars theory is correct.
I have heard that Tulsa has the worst climate in the WORLD for concrete longevity. (expansion/contraction). Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Wrinkle on August 28, 2008, 09:09:26 am quote: OK, it's official, we've now heard everything. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Wrinkle on August 28, 2008, 09:23:16 am Anyone ever drove the Gulf Coast from Texas to Florida?
Every time I do, I can't help but wonder how they can build roads tens of miles long which are really nothing but continuous bridges, literally. And, it's not just interstates, local roads do much the same. If we had to do what these cities do for roads, it'd be far more expensive than what is required here to keep our roads maintained. We complain about freeze/thaw decay here, but they deal with a perpetual onslought of salty seawater. There's nothing here which represents an unusual problem, just different. In some cases more difficult, others less. It's understanding the problem and applying the correct solution. But, doing nothing isn't it. And special taxes to do one of the two or three most basic city functions doesn't really solve the problem either. There's something wrong about the approach. Fix that first. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: ARGUS on August 28, 2008, 09:15:18 pm heres something else for you wrinkle (so you CAN hear everything)
The ideal environment to cure concrete is a slightly salty moist environment. Also, in this ideal environment this curing could last up to.......ready.......wait for it............70 yrs. Let the flaming begin. Gaspar; please look this up when you have time to attempt to validate. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: Wrinkle on August 29, 2008, 10:13:45 am quote: Not really trying to argue, but there is no 'ideal' environment in which to cure concrete. There is only what there is and the method of curing chosen. Concrete cures to within 80%-98% of its' _design_ strength in 28 days, depending upon the curing method and the design mix. While curing continues for years, and yes I've heard to as much as 70 years, the objective is to get it to _design_ strength, so it serves the purpose. Concrete curing is a chemical process. Thus, water is the catalyst which initiates the process. It also means concrete cures if completely submerged in water, even salt water. But, it does change the chemical reaction which require a _design_ mix and a _chosen_ curing method. Frankly, I see no particular benefit to a salty water application, though hadn't heard of that previously, or have reason to investigate. We have no seawater here. The fact remains, you adjusted the mix and curing method to achieve the 28-day strength and that's pretty much it. The other consideration would be expansion control. Concrete shrinks as it cures, by about 1/16th inch per ten feet of length. Temperature affects that even more. So, planning of control joints is imperative. If the laws of physics and materials are properly applied, there should be no problems. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: TeeDub on August 29, 2008, 02:13:37 pm While I am sure that the dramatic swings in temperature that we have in Oklahoma has an effect.... It sure doesn't help that every surrounding state has weigh stations for big trucks that remain open 24 hours.... But Oklahoma's look like they last checked vehicle weight somewhere back in the 1970s. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: waterboy on August 29, 2008, 02:22:43 pm quote: That was true in Missouri. Lots of trucks were pulled over to be weighed and checked. Fees collected probably help maintain their roads. Too heavy and you're turned away. Didn't see anything on the Oklahoma side. Title: What does Missouri know that we don't? Post by: inteller on September 01, 2008, 06:33:42 pm quote: that would just be one part of a comprehensive ROADS PLAN. |