The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

90-0.  Good riddance:

http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=9983562

More pandering, I see.

Got it. You support using our tax dollars and jail space for illegals. I guess this is even more pandering. Voter ID is moving forward:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20090311_298_0_OKLAHO123585

Rep. Steve Martin, R-Bartlesville, said he believes voter fraud was probably responsible for President Barack Obama's election last November.

"Some people say the 2000 election might have been stolen," said Martin. "I'm not sure that didn't happen in 2008."


freaking wow

It's pandering because we're talking about 511 people. A person is trying to make a name for himself over what amounts to a non-issue instead of tackling things that actually matter.

Edited to add: And the voter ID thing is supremely stupid. Don't you have to provide evidence of your identity when you register? I seem to remember doing so, but I could be remembering the procedure in Arkansas.

So, the entire Oklahoma House is pandering. Okay.

As far as the statute being "supremely stupid", I think you do not know what fraud this statute is designed to combat. Presently, I can go to your precinct and tell the worker that I am nathanm and vote because they do not ask for ID. I can also bop around as many precincts that I can on election day doing the same thing. All one has to do is look at the voter sheet, find a name without a check mark, and say you are that person without a check mark (and hope the poll worker does not know that person).

Who would do that?  Nobody does that; this is very unserious legislation.  What is our legislature doing (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/rankings.html) to address:  a $900 billion deficit; life expectancy 44th; persons below poverty level 44th; persons with bachelor's degree or higher 39th; teacher salaries 47th; per capita energy consumption 39th; violent crime rate 33rd; per capita income 33rd; or infant mortality 39th?   

If they want to check ID, the ID they check should be the voter registration card. Leaving out 2% of the state's population because they don't have a government issued photo ID is supremely stupid. Especially when combating yet another nonexistent problem that the Republican party is using to keep people from the polls.

And the pandering regarding the bill about illegals? It's the people who sponsored the bill who are the ones doing the real pandering. The rest are just glomming onto an issue that the Republican party is using to rile people up. Still bad, but not nearly as much as the people wasting their time drafting the bill in the first place.

I really don't get the problem with checking ID to vote.  Am I missing something?  It is a non-intrusive way of making sure the person voting is who they say they are.

A voter registration card isn't an ID.   It is a piece of paper with a name on it.  It has no useful benefit in actually identifying the person (ie.  if I took your voter registration or printer one out from my computer the attendant would have no way of knowing it was a fake).  [I have the same problem using SS cards as "ID."  It doesn't identify anyone.  A pool pass does a better job.]

And why would it keep people from the polls?  Every Oklahoma resident is entitled to have an Oklahoma ID.  Driving or otherwise.  It would seem a miner inconvenience to get an ID in exchange for a vote.  Or include a picture or at least a description on the voter registration.  Something.

And I'm not arguing it IS a major problem.  Just that the potential exists.  As it stands, I could easy go vote for my wife or several other people in town.  I know where they live, their name, and their registered affiliation.  Nothing to stop me from going to their polling place and voting for them (particularly when I know most of them don't vote in off season elections).   The remedy for that potential problems seems simple and non-intrusive, even to the 2% that don't have an ID (and probably don't vote anyway).

There has to be a way to calm these concerns while not depriving people of the right to vote or making it too difficult of a task.  Of course, IMHO, if you don't care enough to take part of a lunch to get an ID to vote you probably don't care enough to look into the issues and I'm happy to see you not vote.  I don't buy into the "everyone should vote" thing.  If you are uninformed, I'm happy to see you stay at home.  But that doesn't mean I want voting to be a pain in the neck or confusing.

Just as long as you didn't have to pay for the ID. 

Now why would Oklahoma want to order that all homosexuals wear pink arm bands, errrr, I mean why would Oklahoma vote to exterminate gypsies, wait, wrong issue, I mean, why would Oklahoma want to expel minor immigrants?

Have you ever noticed that most of our legislators wear cheap suits, have a mean streak a mile long and would do anything to get re-elected?

You have to have a DL# or last four of your social to sign up for your voter registration card:
http://www.ok.gov/~elections/vrform.pdf

However, I have never been asked for a voter registration card and could be voting for someone who died 20 years ago for all my poll knows. I personally believe everyone (at least every adult) needs a valid state-issued photo id. You can write a check, apply for a loan or any other major transaction without it and we don't want people carrying their SS card around during the current age of identity theft.

Make "registered voter" a checkbox on the oklahoma ID and quit issuing those crappy paper cards.

Interesting; last general election EVERYONE was being asked for their voter cards.  It made some people mad at my precinct that they were being asked for them (obviously because they didnt' have them).  No voter card, you didn't vote.

Why they don't do that as a matter of course I don't know.

Oklahoma has a $900 billion dollar deficit?

Interesting. Is your precinct heavily Democratic or something?

Down in the southern wasteland I walked in, claimed to be who I really am and voted. (after effing up a ballot and getting a new one..it was one of those days)

In Arkansas a few years ago they implemented a new requirement that you have to either show ID or another proof of identity (basically any bill or document from the government with your name on it) either at the time of registration or the first time you vote. After that, you can vote with or without ID, although they do mark "No ID" next to your name in the big book if you don't have your registration card or your ID with you when you vote.

That seems reasonable to me. An ID requirement each time you vote is unreasonable and mainly serves to prevent the poor from voting.

I don't think there's a precinct anywhere in Oklahoma that's 'heavily democratic'.  Unless you consider 37 percent (just a made up number people) heavy....oh, wait a minute, this is Oklahoma.  10 percent democratic might be considered 'heavily democratic'....

 ;D

Didn't say they asked for ID's.  They asked for our voter registration cards.  Which they have full right to do at any time.  They had signs out front saying to have them out before you got to the table.  This was Tulsa County precinct 40 (Lindbergh Elementary).

That's still jacked. I didn't think Oklahoma had a requirement to show your registration card when you voted.

I don't know that they have a requirement, but I'm guessing that it's well within the law to do so.

Generally speaking, if the law doesn't require it, it's not allowed when it comes to elections.

And it just occurred to me why even requiring a registration card is a bad idea. If you were to lose yours, would you really notice until election day or a couple of days before? Most people probably wouldn't. Even if you were to go in person, as I understand it, you can't be issued a new card within 25 days of an election in Oklahoma.

The states that allow registration on the day of the election at the precinct don't seem to be having big issues, so what problem exactly are laws like these solving?

Edited to add: And the proponents saying "oh, you can vote a provisional ballot"? Um, way to pretend like you're counting someone's vote when you're not. A person who didn't have ID would then have to procure said ID and take it to the election board office by whatever deadline they set. (which would be prior to 1pm on the Friday after the election, since the investigation of provisional ballots must be completed by that time)

Besides, a nefarious person could just claim to have been recently discharged or on leave from the military and they get to vote a provisional ballot that is by law counted without investigation.

$900 MILLION shortfall. 

I think Illegals should serve their time behind bars just like any other person convicted of the same crime would. I say deport their donkey after they serve their time,this ensures that they know that that will not get away with criminal acts other that illegal immigration.Heck they should serve some prison time for violating our immigration laws. Punishment for breaking the law should not be be just a free trip home. Mexico,Canada, and other countries are not going to care if their citizens have committed crimes in our country.

This I can agree with.Because of the fact they do not check IDs it opens up elections to voter fraud. It is a load of nonsense to say Oh what about the very few people who may not have an ID,if they really value their right to vote and really value the democratic process they will go and fork out $10 to get an ID card to help ensure the whole democratic system is not open to fraud. Ten dollars is not a lot of money.

It's the old "poll tax" argument. Incidentally, as many probably know, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that voter id laws are constitutional. 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/28/scotus.voter.id/

The interesting thing about the opinion is that Justice Stevens jumped ship and voted with the righties on the court.

Can you actually cite examples of widespread election fraud or are you just spouting nonsense?

Ironically, accidental fraud is incredibly common. As in people forgetting to change their registration and voting in the wrong school district or city council election. Why is it that the legislature sees fit to solve a problem that doesn't exist rather than a problem that is in fact an issue?

And again, I hope you don't suddenly realize the day of the election that your license is expired or that you lost it. It's not just about the money.

Last time I checked the city does not send you a notification in the mail weeks after an election is over detailing what you voted for and they do not check IDs.So how is one supposed to gather proof that any fraud in this regard has happened? The lack of evidence is not proof that wrong doing has not occurred. Therefore is it is nonsense to be asking for such proof when there is no way to determine or gather evidence that fraud has occurred.


Don't you get notifications in the mail your ID/license is about to expire and don't IDs/licenses have expiration dates on them?

I think the whole poll tax argument is bunk because voter id laws require that you show something that the huge vast majority of people already have and use for other purposes, nor are they taking money for ballots.
 

I recall two city council elections being voided and new elections ordered because of "irregularities" whatever that means. Wasn't there some sort of a bs publicity stunt that MDG pulled were he alleged an empty lot (or something) voted in the Turner primary several years back?

There's all sorts of ways to figure out whether widespread election fraud is happening. Significant deviations from exit polling are indicative, although not proof in and of themselves. Reports of folks turning up to vote after someone else has voted using their name would be another. You gotta sign the book, so it's not as if people can just vote forty times in one election without anybody noticing.

No and yes. Lots of people still forget. And if you lose it or it's stolen from you and don't happen to have two other forms of ID on hand, I guess you're just out of luck, eh?

I don't know about the latter, but I did see a few Oklahoma court cases about election irregularities when I was looking for an answer to someone's previous comment about Oklahoma requiring or allowing that you be required to show your registration card, and they all came down to people voting in the wrong precinct, not intentional fraud.

This is a non-issue being pushed by certain partisan interests in an attempt to keep those who are more likely to vote for the other party from voting. That they cloak it in some sort of fraud prevention is just meaningless window dressing.

That said, I doubt most in the Oklahoma legislature have heard any more on the subject than the window dressing itself. They mostly probably don't even realize where the push is coming from.

Exit polling results and polling place results conflicting with each can be a indicator that voters lied to the people asking who they voted for and not every person leaving the polling place is going to tell others how they voted. Besides they do not have exit pollers at every polling location.


How many of the same voters who vote in presidential elections vote in other elections that do not occur on the same day as the presidential elections?


Do they have signature experts thoroughly examine every sign in sheet? simple deviations in how one writes their letters can probably fool alot of people.  Besides if they find forty suspected fraudulent signatures do they for example take out twenty ballots for one candidate and twenty for another candidate?



If I let my ID expire or its gets stolen and I fail to replace before election day then I should be SOL.People cash checks,use credit cards, buy booze,smokes, drive,use their ID to get into certain places and use their ID/licenses for many other used.

As I said, one component of fraud detection.

Huh?

When the results are contested, it has happened, although they don't throw out ballots, they hold another election for the position if the results can't be determined to a mathematical certainty.

You may be OK with being disenfranchised for a minor error on your part or the outright theft of my identification documents, but I'm not.

And FWIW, I can't remember the last time I was asked for ID to use my credit card. Visa and Mastercard have rules in their acceptance contracts forbidding that practice. Personally, I pull out my ID once every few months if even that. Generally only when I get stopped for speeding, although every once in a great while I'll get carded for beer or liquor.

Oklahoma already has strong protections in place to detect and correct election fraud without a need for showing ID at the polling place. When someone comes forth with evidence that there is a problem, I will support such a law. Until that happens, I think it's misguided at best and at worst an attempt to influence the results of elections by throwing up roadblocks in the way of those who are less inclined and/or able to vote. (when I say less able, I mean those who have greater difficulty, not those who are ineligible)

Speaking of which, IIRC, this bill would make it impossible for me to even use my passport as ID, since passports don't have addresses on them. That's yet another example of the stupidity of the law.