The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Tulsa World online says Blake Ewing will announce grocery store to be located in Detroit Lofts.

I thought it was a food lion

Oh I dont think they will come back here anytime soon.

Refresh me on where the Detroit Lofts are again? 

And don't just say "Detroit."

...Where is the Archer Market?... and don't just say "Archer"  ...  /snark.

 ;D

Oh stop.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=36.156683,-95.988214&spn=0,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=36.156719,-95.988116&panoid=v0WVKfoAXi0WodH0Z5U11g&cbp=12,159.32,,0,-16.82

Who is this "Mark" guy and why is he "it"?

I just heard a breaking news update on KRMG (I was with my Grandma..) that was talking about the two newe grocery stores downtown. Exciting!

Article from KRMG:

KRMG was reporting on the announcement of a new grocery store in downtown Tulsa when we stumbled upon news of a second store going in as well.

The last time downtowners had a grocery store was the Homeland on Denver Avenue that closed in 2002.

Local entrepreneur Blake Ewing sent KRMG a press release about his announcement tomorrow.

The release says the Archer Market will be located at The Detroit Lofts.

That’s on Archer near ONEOK Field.Ewing says, “Downtown Tulsa has been really hurting for a local market and I am proud to have a hand in meeting that need. Archer Market will be an important piece of making downtown a more livable area, and will hopefully attract others to take residence here.”

Ewing says the store will have food, toiletries and more for the growing number of people living downtown.The kitchen will also offer prepared dinners and full service catering.

Customers can help themselves to a fresh gourmet salad bar, a breakfast cereal and oatmeal station and a coffee shop.

The market will open in October.

The other developer is going with a different style.

That store will be located at 2nd and Detroit and will offer natural foods

That's Sager's loft project, isn't it?

I hope Blake doesn't over-extend himself, financially or time-wise.  I admire his vision, but having multiple business interests concerns me when it comes to wanting to add city councilor to the portfolio.  Just seems like he might have a lot of distractions and I'm really not sure if he appreciates how councilor can turn into a full time gig when it comes to your constituents having zero respect for your time away from the council chamber.

If anyone wants a primer on it, just talk to Eric Gomez.  People will literally accost you in the grocery store or your place of business.  I used to see people bring up city business with Mayor Randle at church when I went to Trinity Episcopal.  Seriously folks, these public servants have a life.

I'm by no means a Blake hater, quite the contrary, I like him a lot and what he's done for downtown.  I think his input could be really vital from the view of an entrepreneur in one of the more dynamic council districts.  I simply hope he doesn't burn himself out.

I wish him the best in his race and I hope he makes an excellent councilor should he win.  Due to the gerrymandering er re-districting, I'm no longer in D-4.

No, the Detroit Lofts is a Snyder project. It was completed in August of last year and the lofts are 100% full.

Right on!

The "Teach For America" teachers have found the Detroit Lofts to be quite to their liking. 

Conan, from what I hear Blake has surrounded himself with top notch talent in the areas of marketing, management and food preparation.  I think this will allow him to grow his businesses and devote time to public service.  Downtown lovers can only hope he is elected.  My personal opinion is other candidates may pander to more of a midtown crowd versus a balance of midtown/downtown.

ouchity, that stings.

I live in beautiful Owen Park, and I'm happy to have two new groceries going in downtown (Cam and Archer Market).

Owen Park is making quite a resurgence due to it being two minutes from the Brady district with affordable historic housing. Two groceries nearby can only be good for us here in the Park.

This is great news for Tulsa.  I recently moved from Downtown KC after living in a highrise for 5.5 years.  The first 2 years were without our grocery store, and the last 3.5 were with our grocery store.  It was approximately a 1.5 minute walk from our house which made frequent shopping trips easy, even with our small child.  Additionally, the Downtown KC store was arguably one of the nicest stores in KC. 

I really hope that the Tulsa stores being installed are of sufficient quality.  Additionally, I hope they have high quality prepared foods, deli, salad bars, pizzas, etc... as this was a huge workday lunchtime draw and was also a draw around 6 pm to 7 pm with downtown residents picking up their dinner. 

Either way, a single store is an improvement, and 2 is even better. 

How close are they going to be located to one another?

The grocery store in downtown KC is very nice.  Was just there a few weeks ago.

I've been to the markets in downtown KC and St. Louis. Both are very nice and I'd be happy to have one here. They both seem to have just about everything you'd need from a supermarket.

But I'm concerned that the new markets we're getting here aren't going to be useful to this downtown resident. I never used the Blue Jackalope because it was just way too small to be useful in lieu of a midweek trip to the supermarket. Both of these new markets seem like they're going to be extremely small.

If they're as small as I think, or if they close too early in the evenings (before 9pm), I probably won't be able to utilize them.

I walked by the CAMS site yesterday and it's actually larger than I had set it in my mind's eye. There is plenty of space there for a market and prepared foods/coffee place.

Go to www.wikimapia.org and type Archer Market into the search box, then click the "Archer Market, Tulsa" link and it will show you where it is.  Super excited, can't wait!

Appreciate it.

I know the area well and that really helped me out.  So it'll be directly East of New Medio.  Hopefully it'll help spur something in the old Fuelman lot.

Looks like plenty of parking next to the building. Great location next to the Ball Field.

That parking lot will (hopefully) disappear soon as it fronts Elgin by the ballpark.  Hopefully loft apartments overlooking the stadium with streetfront retail/restaurant space.  There is parking across the street though between Cincinnati and Detroit, and lots of street parking.

Do you know something we dont? 

I hate that lot so, so much.  I remember when the feulman station was there. It was paved back then (sort of).  It's being used as surface parking is like a giant sybol of the sluggish nature of developers in town. 

Please developmet fairy, bring me a multi-story mixed used building between 4-6 stories that is completely funded and will be built safely in record time.

While I'm at it I might as well wish for a pony.....

Make it a unicorn.

That would be awsome to have a loft apartment with a view of the stadium and all the firework shows they do.

You mean like the 120 lofts plan that TDA rejected?

Isn't the parking lot at Cincy and Archer the site of the future (hopefully) OK POP Museum and unicorn farm?

Should we find where the members of the TDA live and tell them wheat we think of them in only the politest of ways.

I've heard there will be a similar lofts plan in that location which is controlled by the ballpark trust.  Supposedly it will include a master plan for other parcels around the ballpark as well such as the warehouses directly to the south, and will be mostly mixed-use residential.  I believe the Snyders are involved in this.

The OK Pop museum will be located on Archer between Boston and Cincinnati.  No current plans for the surface lot on Archer between Cincinnati and Detroit.  That would be a good place for a future parking garage to be used by the entire district, especially if the pop museum is built and several other lots dissapear at Main & Archer (Fairfield Hotel), Boston & Archer (Brady Townhomes & Living Arts) and Elgin & Archer. 

You mean like the GreenArch project?

Different lot

Wait... I thought they were funded.  Is that not happening now?

GreenArch is happening...albeit slowly.  120 Lofts was killed by the TDA.  Too bad as it would've been a great project.  The ballpark trust has a development proposal but hasn't released it yet.

Archer Market is posting on FB that they're still aiming for August.

(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/602401_356063637797019_1635531548_n.jpg)

This seems to be going at a snail's pace. From looking in the window regularly, it's hard to spot a whole lot of progress. Although the sign about bodies in the fridge does make me chuckle every time.

Pardon my impatience, but we're nearly a year behind the opening date posted earlier in this thread, and three months behind the June open date posted on the Archer Market facebook site a few months back.

Still ahead of Cam's

This sounds like some kind of problem for a philosophy class. Does it really matter when neither one is able to sell me groceries?

I know to add a month or three to every projected opening date for a business, but this is getting ridiculous.

They're exacerbating the problem with the way-too-early facebook presence (especially the post about a June 18 opening date a month or so before June 18).

Speaking of Cam's... who pays to rehabilitate the Cam's bldg?    Before Cam's moved in, the place had a floor and windows... twas a covered parking garage.
Now it has a dirt floor, broken/boarded windows, and I think a spotty roof.

Matches at least one other property with the same owner.

I am right with you. I moved downtown a few months ago and expected to soon have two grocery stores within walking/biking from work and home. I know Blake has a lot of projects, but it would be nice to cut out my weekly drive to Reasor's.

Archer Market is being built out by the building's owner, not by me or a contractor that I've hired. I have no control over that finish date. The dates that have been previously reported were generated by construction crew and shared with us. The construction plans have clearly not gone according to schedule and there have been several snags, most of them regarding the exhaust vents. It's important to note that the owner is also building out The Aloft Hotel, Vandever Lofts, and Rusty Crane at the same time, so the crew is split between several jobs. We're making progress over there and are, of course, excited about being open.

I can move in when it's built. I've hired staff and am ready to get going, but am waiting for it to be finished. I don't take over the project until we have a certificate of occupancy. My understanding is that we'll have one within days. This is not typically how we do things. I usually own the building and either contract the job myself or hire a contractor. On this one, we don't own the building and are not involved in the contracting or construction of the project. We made the plans, but they're building it. I'll do the decorating when the space is move-in ready.

It's also important to note that I haven't been aggressively pushing the construction. I also have other projects under construction, existing businesses to run, and am spending a great deal of time at City Hall these days. These guys have been great to work with and we're excited about being tenants of the Detroit Lofts.

Anyway, when I get that CO, I'll still have to decorate it, stock it, staff it completely, and then train the staff.

I'm sorry that it's taken so long. I'll give you a free ice cream when we open. Ice cream makes everything better.

Thanks,
Blake

May I have free ice cream as well?

Mmm.. Ice Cream
I think an ice-cream parlor would complement the brady district well.... especially now that the park is open
(Tulsa has no gourmet/homemade ice cream shop...   Mod's gelato is the closest we've got)

Do the custard shops not make their own?  What about all the frozen yogurt places?

We have FroYo on every corner though.

Coincidentally, Tulsa's only TCBY closed a few months back. That's like McDonalds shutting down just as ground horse rectum becomes popular.

real ice cream puts all that powder-mix freshberry, cherryberry, pinkberry, orangeleaf stuff to shame

my wife and I try to visit the best local ice cream or gelato shops in any city we visit

Thanks for the update. We aren't trying to be disrespectful, we are just so damn excited. I'll be there on opening day with bells on.

Does anyone have an update?

I like Archer:

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1TluC5CeL1CER9QOi5Fw4tJlX1djCUohDD_1hbhBIc0V8BqKQ9Q)

They do seem to be making progress. My guess is it opens sometime in the first month or three of 2013.

I see they'll have Boars Head sandwiches and be open reasonably late, which makes me much more excited about it. I'm still leery of its value as a grocery store, what with the very small size.

Reading their facebook, they'll have sandwiches and a hot and cold lunch line.

Is there more to that space than meets the eye? It doesn't look that big. I'm not sure how much actual groceries will be able to fit in that small space once room is carved out for checkouts and ready to eat food.

Sounds more like it'll be some kind of east coast deli/corner market than what I would call a grocery store.

 Maybe that is why the name is Archer Market.

I agree that "Market" is probably a good term for it. Then maybe it's more of a media/general public labeling issue. People seem to be referring to it as a grocery store. Nobody calls the Braum's market a grocery store.

I have a hard time seeing how Archer Market will offer significantly more groceries than a Braums.

I don't believe the target "market" (pun intended) for this place is Braum's customers.

I sometimes buy stuff at Braums. They do have an amazing selection of fruit, bread and meat for such a small store.

We shall see. It'll have to be an incredibly well curated selection to compensate for the small space and really be a 'grocery' store.

Just noticed this. It seems the froyo revolution has ended. A bunch of those places that sprung up like weeds are no more.

Have you ever been to the Harvest Market over in west Tulsa? It has a great selection of food and is housed in a 1,600 foot building.

http://www.tulsapeople.com/Tulsa-People/March-2009/Shop-around-the-corner/

At some point we are going to need a full service grocer at the old Homeland location. Reasor's at 15th & Lewis will suffice for now, but I'd like more options around for sure.

Good luck getting the current owner to let that space go.  There have been many inquiries into it, from my understanding.

The library is leasing the former Homeland until the remodel of the central library is complete.

That building along with a majority of the land/buildings in that corner of downtown are owned by either Twenty First Properties or Embark Corporation.  The two entities are both led by Paul Wilson and have ties to the Schusterman family.

They own the block from 11th to 12th and Denver to Elwood (Homeland), a little more than 2/3 of the block bounded by 11th to 12th and Cheyenne to Denver and about the same amount of the oddly shaped land between 9th to 11th (there is no 10th street there) and Denver to Cheyenne.  All of this is publicly available via the Tulsa County Assessor's website if you'd like to see the exact parcels.

They've held most of this real estate for over twenty years.  In the 90's they wanted to build a "gateway" into downtown but that didn't happen.  More recently they were pushing for the ballpark to be placed in that corner of downtown as a southern anchor to accompany the BOK Center.  One of the issues they face is the block of PSO substation from Cheyenne to Boulder and they don't own all the Denver frontage.  The land could make for a fantastic retail, office and housing development.  It is close to existing residential, a teaching hospital, large hotel and easy access to Riverside.

This is a perfect spot for the right type of multi-family dwelings, something in a brownstone style perhaps.

From peering in the window on a regular basis, I'm not sure I've been able to pick out any progress in the past few months. That's not to say there hasn't been any progress, just that if so, it's not been noticeable.

Any updates? Is this still happening? Will we still subsist on grocery store food by the time this opens, or will we all be eating futuristic NASA food pouches or something?

I heard a "Blakeco" radio ad over the weekend in which he said Archer Market is coming "soon"

Bump.

Anything? I've stopped peering into the window because after 200 times seeing little to no progress, it's not worth the effort.

Still coming soon, Blake has the Phoenix recently opened and some other changes going on.

Saw in Urban Tulsa that the plan is for spring sometime.

Any updates? Spring is looking less likely as the days pass and there's little obvious progress being made.

Hell, spring hasn't even looked like spring really. HA!

Anyone have an updated timeline?

I saw some permit in the paper a few weeks back.

During last night's city council mtg Blake said he hopes to be up and running within 60 days.

He didn't specify earth-days or Blake-days.

Having just moved into GreenArch, this would be wonderful.  I'm not holding my breath, though :/

 ;D

Just saw on facebook that Archer Market is now hiring.  Wouldn't think you'd hire employees unless the market is close to finally opening.

This was posted a year ago:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/scene/restaurants/table-talk-folks-urban-market-and-pantry-to-open-in/article_5f789774-68ce-11e3-a817-001a4bcf6878.html

When I opine to myself that I wish I had the money to invest in downtown development,  this a corner that comes to mind.  This corner has an amazing history and I would love to see it really thrive again.  Here is a fantastic read on it: http://tulsatvmemories.com/11denver.html Read it all. It broke my heart.  I would love to see the Bowen lounge reemerge as the same space for the lounge but with 5-10 floors of living on top of it.  This is such a gem of a location.  I really hope I see someone move on it in the next ten years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Sadly, I remember little of all those cool businesses except The Cog. We would escape from Cities Service Oil at lunch and go over to get Bloody Mary's where we would often run into other employees. Even by then most of the corner was gone. I remember the Bowen lounge name but never visited.

At least 3 or 4 little Art Deco buildings were once there that are totally gone now.  The more I learn about all the Art Deco we once had the more I could see how we could have really been one of the Art Deco centers of the world.  Sadly no longer the case. Definitely would have given us a wonderfully unique identity if we had managed to even save half of what we lost and managed to work some of the facades into newer buildings.  It was once our "vernacular" style.  Now we are pretty much blah, average, same ol same ol.  I really enjoy cities that have nurtured a unique "sense of place" and special identity, often related to great time periods in their unique history.  Why its sad agin to be losing another link to our past by losing the Oil and Gas Journal Building.  

Keep Tulsa Blah.

My dad took me to the Incognito Inn after I graduated college in 1980. I met the Police Chief, local judges and television personalities. It was some crowd.

Now open / new name
https://www.facebook.com/folkstulsa

Yay market!

Complete PR FAIL considering what a pivotal business this is for downtown.

Made it 7 months

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scenehomepage1/table-talk-folks-urban-market-and-pantry-to-close-tuesday/article_397af833-cda9-514b-b710-a4b4e727c906.html

I bet a Reasor's/Walmart/Sprouts/etc would do gangbusters as long as there's a parking lot.

Nice space and some good items, but did not have basic inexpensive options.

One time went to get some stuff for sandwiches to eat at the shop and save money from having to go out to eat every day.  Cost just as much as going out.  They had some quite nice readymade sandwiches which was what we ended up getting, but that wasn't the point, I can get several sandwich offerings closer by and for the same price or less. Just wanted some everyday wheat bread, some lunch meat and sliced cheese or P&J.  And was willing to pay a little more to be supportive and all, but they either didn't have the items or they only had way over priced items.

 The second time I tried it was for a meeting, and I am sure there are lots of those downtown and it would have been nice to have a place to go get some items, and just wanted some quick easy finger food type snacks to set out (some fruit like grapes, cheese, crackers, nuts, some cookies or small sweets, etc.)  Meeting was for about 8-10 people and I was thinking I could get something for about 30 to say 40 dollars tops, spent $80 there just getting a lean smattering of some tidbits, not including drinks.  And I really really looked around trying to figure out how to be creative with what they had but the inexpensive basics weren't there. Wasn't going to try that again.  Only crackers they had were super expensive, there was space there next to the others where they could have some $3-$4 options but nope, only $5-$8 boxes of crackers.  

Several people I spoke to who went there tried to figure out just what "market segments" they were trying for but couldn't really figure it out.  

You need people living Downtown, then a grocery store.

I never gave it a second thought since it opened.  Sounds under-promoted and wasn’t stocked or priced with great appeal. 

I would use a downtown grocery store a lot and don't live down here.  But even if I did live downtown I couldn't have used this store as a grocery store.

It was kinda like a play store that some kids set up.   A cozy space with lightly stocked shelves.    I visited back in Feb or March.  Thought there was no way that was going to last without stuff on the shelves - reasonably priced or otherwise

We need the kind of selection Braums carries in their grocery section. All the basics, reasonable prices.

Heck, just build a Braum's.

^^This

I'd love to see a gourmet ice cream in the Brady district.   Braums doesn't fit that bill..     But a Braums would probably work in Blue Dome / east village.

I'm told OKC has begged the Braum's family to open a store in downtown OKC with no luck.

???

We don't have Mayfield's around this part of the country, so who would be better???   (Hint:  none!)

We have a Marble Slab out here in BA. A little to pricey for Ice Cream IMO.

Even if not urban, they could build at 8th and Elgin or by TCC and probably do well. Catch all the people going in/out of downtown. Odds are a few hundred downtown workers promised to get milk on the way home each day.

Doesn't Beautiful Brands have a custard place?

I keed, I keed.

Chain envy?

Here are  some non-chain shops that are better
http://www.tosci.com/
http://christinasicecream.com/
http://www.glaceicecream.com/
http://biritecreamery.com/
http://www.screaminmimisicecream.com/

Hell of an idea.

And definitely not gourmet ice cream!


Point of reference;  my homemade ice cream IS gourmet ice cream!

No.  Small local, regional dairy companies.

There is one in Milwaukee area, too, that is good - can't remember name.

We just don't have any of those within 1,000 miles of here....  Well, maybe 800 miles, but 1,000 sounds more dramatic.


Marble Slab and Dippin' Dots are the two that are here that try to come off as 'gourmet'.  But aren't.  So, we got Braum's - which really isn't bad for whipped, emulsified ice cream!  Actually, very good!

Isn't dippin' dots just wax balls?   Also, I never feel compelled to buy ice cream "of the future"... seems like it can wait until tomorrow.

Doesn't BA/Coweta have an ice cream factory?

Does Borden make any ice cream at their plant on the west edge of Brady/east edge of social services district.

BA/Coweta has a Blue Bell Factory. I believe Borden downtown is distribution, not production.

Isn't it Borden on the Turner Turnpike? That would mean three places in the state making Ice Cream.

Hiland is down in Chandler.

I live downtown: If it had been a grocery store I would have used it. It was more like a bodega.

I unfortunately never shopped there.  Maybe if there was a buzz about it being a neat place with good food and good grocery selection it would not have slipped my mind for seven months to check it out.  I never heard a word from anyone about the place and it sounds like it may have had its issues.  I hope it doesn't dissuade someone else from giving it a go with a different business model.

No....they have Blue Bell....

Do they make ice cream?  They have great milk....and the Great Value in most of the Walmarts is bottled by them....can tell by PLT #.  5041, I think for Tulsa area, IIRC.

That was our experience exactly. We know plenty of people who live downtown to support a small grocer. Couple that with those who work downtown who might pick up some items on their lunch break/after work or companies purchasing deli platters for meetings or last-minute break room necessities. The problem was that Folks seemed to operate more as a high-end deli than a grocery store. The produce was moderately priced, but you never knew what they might have on hand. We sometimes purchased the pre-made meals that you heat up at home, but if we're going to have to go home and assemble the meal and basically make it from scratch anyway, it's cheaper to just buy the ingredients elsewhere for much cheaper.

A Braum's mini-grocery store would be great, but a more full-service Whole Foods or Trader Joe's kind of place would be better. I know I am not alone in that I would pay more at a store downtown to avoid having to leave the IDL. (Case in point - the two very nice, but slightly higher-priced liquor stores downtown.)

That pretty much goes for any store located close to where someone is.  That depends, of course, on how much more expensive, how much one intends to buy, and the cost and time of transportation.

I disagree about downtown needing a full-size grocer to serve the residents.  If you've ever lived in a high-rise or even mid-rise apartment building you know that carrying more than a few grocery bags onto the elevator and to the apartment is a royal pain the butt.  If you're walking (or transit) from a store rather using a personal vehicle you only buy what you can carry.  With that being said most downtown dwellers only need a store big enough to stock the equivalent of 2-3 days worth of groceries.  I also believe the store would serve downtown workers if it was within walking distance of their office and easy back to the car.  I don't think many people would pull out of their garage, stop at a downtown store then head home.  The pricing advantage (due to cheaper dirt to build on) of the suburban store would trump that model.

That is the ideal situation, having a decent population in a pedestrian friendly area, and then a small store or two.  When I was in London I would walk a few blocks and get enough for a few days, no big deal. Comparable food items cost about the same as they do here.  I remember when I first got back to Tulsa after staying in London the last time for about a month.  I had a headache and needed some aspirin.  I remember thinking "holy crap" I will have to go all the way up the parking garage, get my car, wind it all the way down, then drive over to some store, then come back and park.  Where as in London I just walked out the door along a quiet, beautiful, pleasant neighborhood street and right around the corner was a bustling "main street" with plenty of places to get whatever I wanted.  Actually, within a block of where I was there were a few small, neighborhood type deli's and such.

It's not just the amount of population, but the form that is very important.  Again, going to Dallas and seeing high-rises everywhere, and nobody out walking because it sucks to walk because of the built environment which then puts everyone in cars and finding it easier to go a few miles away versus even going to the smaller place, if there is one, closer by.

Downtown Milwaukee is kind of like that....lot's of people live downtown, walk everywhere or ride their bikes.  Small grocers every few blocks.  Nice little places near every hotel I have ever stayed at there.  And the restaurants are good!!   They have Cousin's Subs, too!!  Nice!!

I visited Milwaukee for a conference a few years back.  Was SHOCKED at their downtown.  It was very modern, not the dirty manufacturing hub I had pictured.

I wonder if a grocery truck concept would fly downtown several days a week until someone can put a more comprehensive grocer in place.  Stock it with good produce, a spice collection, fresh bread, and meats.

I agree with RDJ’s comment about what sort of grocer is needed.  When I lived at Center Plaza, the Homeland was still open at 11th & Denver.  I’d walk over for my food supplies every few days.  Never carried more than one or two bags for obvious reasons.  Something with the size and offerings of a Braum’s Fresh Market would be ideal.  The market portion of a Braum’s probably +/- 1200 sq ft. so it wouldn’t even require that much floor space.

Braum’s apparently is not interested in such a concept, so I wouldn’t think it too difficult or overly expensive for the right people to get one going.  I think the problem with the Folks Market operators is they are not from a grocery background, to my knowledge.  It sounds as if they stocked the store with things they liked or at least thought people would like and buy with no consideration for price points nor actual demand based on the comments posted here from people who went.  I also have no idea how well marketed the concept was. 

There was not a big buzz about it once they got going.  I believe some people have come to rely on social media a bit too much for marketing and advertising.  The problem you have there, is you are usually only marketing to people who have been in your establishment and who have then “liked” your store page.

Thanks Conan.  Downtown doesn't need a grocer, it needs several grocers.  Philtower lobby or mezzanine floor would be an excellent location.  Serve their residents, the hotel next door and the workers in the adjacent buildings.  Treats on Main should add a grocery section.  Serve the residents of the Mayo Bldg and even Mayo Hotel.  Brady District along Archer could use a grocery to serve the Detroit Lofts and Tribune/Metro lofts.

The other obstacle to a downtown grocery is finding the right mix between grocery and deli/pre-packaged foods.  The residents downtown either work & play hard with no desire/time to cook or are older and frequent the downtown restaurants rather than cook.

Ironically, these same obstacles exist for north Tulsa, their just work & income limitations rather than the opposite.

It's a beautiful downtown - and state!   I would move there tomorrow if it weren't for the winters!!  Or would also go for 5 months there, 7 months here....

Many of the movie shots that are supposed to be Chicago - in a lot of movies - are actually Milwaukee....

When I think back to the Tulsa of my youth, which was infinitely more walkable both downtown and in the nearby suburbs, I think of all the little neighborhood grocers that existed. From memory, 18th & Boston, Cincinnati at 19th, 5th and Columbia, 15th and Quaker, 3rd and Delaware, 7th and Birmingham come to mind. They all had much in common: affordable housing or apartments nearby, grade schools, relaxed zoning that allowed previous homes to be used as stores (what now appears to be formed based zoning), good bus routes nearby and a slower pace of life. People in apartments didn't always have refrigerators, they often had ice boxes that were only large enough for a couple meals and you only replenished them a few times a week. People ate at nearby cafes and lunch counters.

The cycle seems to be returning, but I have to say that the pace of life and the expectations of consumers have both accelerated upwards. Also, today's large trucks would have difficulty replenishing their stocks. That was a real problem for Yeakeys on Cherry Street.

I yearn for those little stores that carried everything you needed on a daily basis but you still had access to the "supermarket" farther out if needed. Braums is close to that model but they mostly stay true to ice cream and burgers. It may be that QT has sucked up whatever infill opportunities these stores might have exploited, yet the concept of these little house stores still could be done downtown. Different clientele.

Google Earth.

Milwaukee.

Northwest corner of N Broadway and E St Paul Ave.  Milwaukee Public Market.

An amazing concentration of a kind of "farmer's market eateries" place with exceptional food!!  In a "fast food" format....   Wisconsin people don't put up with the kind of crappy slop that some restaurants get away with here....

And Squeaky Cheese!!!!!!!!

Maybe we need a slightly different concept like a food co-op with an annual membership fee to help cover the overhead to keep it in operation.  Anner’s at 18th & Boston is somewhat of a similar concept though that’s not really “practical” walking distance for people living in the Brady or GreenArch.

http://www.milwaukeepublicmarket.org/main.html


And the prices are very reasonable!!

For a silver lining, there is a already built-out grocery store space available for someone who has a sane business concept.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/downtown-food-market-sues-city-councilor-alleging-mismanagement-of-funds/article_8f767d0d-21ce-5f2d-89cc-ee11fdcecdd4.html

Is Blake being a bad boy??

Sounds like the options:
1. Blake poorly managed funds when he was trying to start Archer Market, and the new owners went ahead and opened a business that was short on cash but didn't really care for almost a year.
2. The business didn't work out as expected and the owners want to blame someone.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/84/a8431f5a-6b7c-53a0-8acf-030941c5e2df/53eeb85b83891.pdf.pdf

Andrew?

The Petition is pretty vague on some key facts, including whether the alleged agreement between them and Ewing was in writing or verbal, the key terms of any such agreement, the terms of the line of credit and operating agreement, etc.  The Petition is clear that Ewing was the manager of Archer LLC during the time period when he is alleged to have drawn on the line of credit, but they do not really allege that such a draw violated any particular terms of the line of credit.  Given this was a start-up business, I would be surprised if there was not cross-collateralization of Ewing’s other businesses for the line of credit.  The rather gratuitous reference to him being a city councilor leaves the impression they are using the lawsuit to embarrass him and leverage a better settlement than they already received.  It is also interesting they are using OKC lawyers.

From reddit: (http://www.reddit.com/r/tulsa/comments/2dqrun/whats_happening_with_that_downtown_grocery_store/cjs61f1)

¿Is that a rumor?

Nonsense

Nice observations

Did the oversaturation of BBQ joints in the Blue Dome kill the only grocery store?!

#tulsafreakanomics

He's not a very good business man....

My money's on the latter, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this pans out.

From reddit: (http://www.reddit.com/r/tulsa/comments/2dqrun/whats_happening_with_that_downtown_grocery_store/cjs61f1)

apparently that rumor is rubbish..   the modified rumor is that Andolini's is going in downtown?

Doubt that.  Last I heard was that there was going to be an Ando's South, but don't remember where.

You would buy Joe Momma's to get an established brand.  They don't own the building.  So buying Joe Momma's and renaming it Andolini's wouldn't make any sense.

I doubt there's any truth to any of this... but  Andolinis   wouldn't be replacing Joe Mommas, but would be a 4th or 5th pizza option downtown  (if Domino's and Mazzios count)

Hey wait. How bout a Shotgun Sams Downtown? I almost feel guilty saying that. ;D

You didn't see the Beautiful Brands press release?
There are 10s of franchises in the works.

Those two would go hand in hand. Good one.

There aren’t enough hands for the scale of face palm that requires.

Blake is way too smart to be a part of this. Sounds like the Archer Market folks are looking for someone to blame for their failure.

As I said earlier, if this was an actual Market I would have used it. 80% of the stuff on the shelves was pointless.

Reading the lawsuit I have several concerns for its success.

1) I don't think an investor/manager  has some kind of a heitened fiduciary duty because he a city councilor.

2) you "had a written and/or contract" that you are suing on?  In a $100,000 dispute with multiple corporate entities I REALLY hope you have a written contract that supports the suit within the 4 corners.

3) the claim is that Ewing used funds from an unherolded and admittedly failing venture to fund ventures which, at least on their face, are much more successful.  Why would the Phoenix need support from Archer?

4) Ewing has diverse investment groups in multiple business over years of operation...  While it is possible he finally got caught, it seems unlikely that investors have been fooled and/or quiet over these last 7-8 years.  A time which includes Back Alley throwing up a white flag.

5) you forgot to name Blue Ox as a Defendant.  Come on... Its on all the trays etc.


I admit to being a Ewing fan and think the suit lacks merit.  BUT... If it sticks it could ruin Blake.  If not financially, in the eyes of investors and the public, it would be bad. 

I'm going for more Ewing corn.  Never a dull moment.

If funds were designated for the sole use by Archer Market/Folks and they were diverted elsewhere, Blake may have a bigger problem, as that’s fraudulent use of loan proceeds.  If that’s the case the Zenthoeffers are the last of his worries.  BUT...if he used existing properties/assets to secure the loan and there were no stipulations in the security agreement or the note they had to go to Archer/Folks then I just wasted a couple of minutes of my life.

Now, if the Zenthoefers were enticed into this with the understanding (written or otherwise) they had a $350K line of credit to draw on and it ended up $100K or so short, that’s a problem.  If it’s not in writing though, good luck proving it.  Oral contracts are worth the paper they are written on. (author unknown).

What if the other entities had paid into Archer Market before the loan was initiated? Surely this line of credit wasn't the sole financing.

In campaigns, often candidates go out of pocket at first and then recoup once donations come in.

Essentially you are asking if Blake’s other business interests had helped seed the project that he might have reimbursed them via loan proceeds?

Certainly you could do that unless the language of the note or security agreement specifically prohibited diverting the funds into anything else other than the secured property.  I’m sure that will eventually be made public as it advances forward.  Since Blake is a public figure of sorts, I suspect we will hear details as the case progresses though that could be awhile.

Here’s what we do know for sure: The Zenthoeffers are claiming they were defrauded when they could not access the full line of credit they were apparently promised existed and could be used for the market. 

That was fast.  Sounds awesome.  Hope the food is good and that the business model works.

Anything with "Taco Shop" in the name can't be bad.

This is simply amazing to me. When did Folk's Urban Market move out? They only closed on August 12th. It's now September 16th.

There has to be more to this story. How on earth could a new business get a lease, licensing, inspections, vendor contracts, vendor deliveries, stocking, staff hired and trained not to mention any physical changes done in 35 days?

Same people sign a lease on the same space, then dump the old company as "failed" and operate now free from the old debt?

If it is the same folks, the Zenthoefers, they seem to be servicing whatever debt exists.  Their are no current collections against them or Folks, and no bankruptcy filing.

It would look as if they are being responsible entrepreneurs. 

Failures are the ultimate teachers.  Ya suck it up and move on.

"Z's Taco Shop"   coincidence?

Two observations:
1. When suing someone for hampering your business, it has more effect when their business is "closed"
2. Rebranding is an easy way to change and cover the reason for failure. (assuming you don't carry those failures into your new business)

Yes.  According to http://www.newson6.com/story/26551726/taco-shop-market-opens-in-former-downtown-grocery-building

As long as the business isn't named "Shotgun Sam's" you can probably get things done without a lot of hassles.

Step one:  don't change anything
http://www.newson6.com/story/26551726/taco-shop-market-opens-in-former-downtown-grocery-building

They already made a good first step, in my opinion, by marketing their restaurant food more than the market.  Any place downtown needs to be a restaurant first and a market second to succeed, at least until more people live downtown.  If the tacos are good, there isn't any reason this place shouldn't succeed.  I'll be checking it out soon.

Yeah.. they are following Blakes business plan unlike what happened when he gave up management control to Folk's.

I'd have to look at the math to make that determination. Owned by Brickhugger (Tory and Macy Snyder), that building has excellent potential, and is in a great location.  It has also had quite an investment put into the finish before Folks/Archer opened, so I would expect that they would get at least market for it, which should be around $18/sf/yr based on comps in the area.  

If they are only leasing the central retail space, that is 1,378/sf, so the monthly would be around $2,067/mo. Your probably looking at around $3,000/mo with general expenses (not including any equipment or ancillary services).  So basically you would be paying $100 a day for rent.

Of course I haven't been there yet, so if they have leased the entire retail/restaurant space (and that's kinda what it looked like in the TW pics), that is about 5,000sf, or around $7,500mo.  Even without utilities or other monthly expenses that would mean you are paying $250 a day for rent.

Not really sure of the numbers on how a taco, and the labor behind it, translates to profit, but it would seem that you would need to sell quite a few to pay the rent.

I love me some tacos, so I will defiantly be visiting.  I hope they do very very well, but I would anticipate (and I'm sure they do too) some changes in their offering as they begin to digest cost.  I think the market portion of the deal is actually where the risk is, because market margins are far thiner than restaurant margins, and require far more volume to remain profitable.

Too bad Blake couldn't have done it in the first place and actually opened it.  Instead?  He opens (and closes) Back Alley, re-does Back Alley as White Flag, semi-closes that and repurposes it as a pure bar/venue, opens The Phoenix, Legends, and The Fur Shop.  I think I'm missing a place or two.  All of that while also trying to be a City Councilor.  Too many pots, all boiling over in a two year window.

Starting to sound like too many....


None of those are like the "Showtime Rotisserie Over" - ya can't "set it and forget it"....

Blake hires good people.

I don't know how they perform financially, but I frequent Joe Momma's and the Phoenix and they seem to do brisk business. I have also driven by Legends at night and seen a long line of people waiting to get in.

I hadn't realized that White Flag stopped serving burgers full time.  I'm sure that spot will find its niche. 

Whatever the complaint, it is now settled/dismissed.