How to Protect Yourself From Obamacare

[Gaspar]

The "Told ya so's" just keep rollin in.

Let’s do the math: We have nearly 30 million uninsured people about to get medical coverage under the health care law come January. And we have a projected shortage of 45,000 primary care physicians by 2020. Add to that the American Association of Nurse Practitioners (AANP), with 43,000 members who say they can offer basic care if state laws would just let them set up an independent practice without doctor supervision.
http://blog.aarp.org/2013/03/29/nurse-practitioners-the-answer-to-the-doctor-shortage/

We're going to have a two class healthcare system.  Those who can afford to pay will see the doctor.  Those who cannot will see the nurse.

[Teatownclown]

This is insurance companies gouging consumers before 2014 comes around. Did anyone think that the insurance companies would not try to raise premiums before 2014. No private health insurance company has lower overhead than Medicare. Single Payer is the only humane solution for an advanced society.

For profit medicine ? One should receive the death penalty for such a thing, IMO. So yes, we will have a two tier medical system. Elitist have always been able to get preferred treatment. Believe it or not.

[Gaspar]

This is insurance companies gouging consumers before 2014 comes around. Did anyone think that the insurance companies would not try to raise premiums before 2014. No private health insurance company has lower overhead than Medicare. Single Payer is the only humane solution for an advanced society.

For profit medicine ? One should receive the death penalty for such a thing, IMO. So yes, we will have a two tier medical system. Elitist have always been able to get preferred treatment. Believe it or not.

What about "for profit food production?"  or "for profit education?" or "for profit housing?"
Remove incentives and you ultimately eliminate quality and innovation.

In many cases the unintended consequences of social programs are very difficult to identify, however in the case of single payer medical systems, the consequences are very easy to anticipate because we have precedents set by other countries and populations within our own.

The force is weak with you clown.

 

[Teatownclown]

What about "for profit food production?"  or "for profit education?" or "for profit housing?"
Remove incentives and you ultimately eliminate quality and innovation.

In many cases the unintended consequences of social programs are very difficult to identify, however in the case of single payer medical systems, the consequences are very easy to anticipate because we have precedents set by other countries and populations within our own.

The force is weak with you clown.

 

Look around the world. Where does Amerika rank in health care? Why does health care need to be for profit only here? Because it's political.... Maybe you should include defense, social security, and helping the poor in your "for profit" argument? And why should education be "for profit?"

[Gaspar]

Look around the world. Where does Amerika rank in health care? Why does health care need to be for profit only here? Because it's political.... Maybe you should include defense, social security, and helping the poor in your "for profit" argument? And why should education be "for profit?"

First, I question any research that indicates we are not ranked the highest in healthcare. 
Second, the majority the innovation, new drugs, new procedures, new diagnostic equipment, and treatment technology comes from American companies, and is fueled by profit.  Remove that element and the incentive is gone.  Other countries with socialized programs rely heavily (like socialist countries in general) in the innovation and technology that is borne here.

Profit is the incentive and incentives matter.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-PMiiygV04[/youtube]

[Teatownclown]

First, I question any research that indicates we are not ranked the highest in healthcare. 
Second, the majority the innovation, new drugs, new procedures, new diagnostic equipment, and treatment technology comes from American companies, and is fueled by profit.  Remove that element and the incentive is gone.  Other countries with socialized programs rely heavily (like socialist countries in general) in the innovation and technology that is borne here.

Profit is the incentive and incentives matter.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-PMiiygV04[/youtube]

Show me where we are ranked highest...

For profit put us on the moon?

[Conan71]

This is insurance companies gouging consumers before 2014 comes around. Did anyone think that the insurance companies would not try to raise premiums before 2014. No private health insurance company has lower overhead than Medicare. Single Payer is the only humane solution for an advanced society.

For profit medicine ? One should receive the death penalty for such a thing, IMO. So yes, we will have a two tier medical system. Elitist have always been able to get preferred treatment. Believe it or not.

If people honestly expected insurance rates were going to rise prior to 2014, then why did they believe the pack of lies that Obama used to sell this plan, like the average family spending $2500 less per year?  It really does go so show how little consumers understand about financial products and insurance and how they place far too much trust in politicians to fix things for them.

[Conan71]

Show me where we are ranked highest...

For profit put us on the moon?

People confuse the poor habits and lack of proactive healthcare on the part of individuals as some sort of indication our healthcare system has let them down.

The United States leads in obesity and bad habits as well as people who cram down all sorts of food with additives and by-products which cause allergies, obesity, cancer, heart disease, etc.  It's not the healthcare system which is at fault for that.

Speaking of the moon, you don't think Rockwell, Lockheed, and all the other contractors who put together the space program did that pro-bono do you?

[Teatownclown]

People confuse the poor habits and lack of proactive healthcare on the part of individuals as some sort of indication our healthcare system has let them down.

The United States leads in obesity and bad habits as well as people who cram down all sorts of food with additives and by-products which cause allergies, obesity, cancer, heart disease, etc.  It's not the healthcare system which is at fault for that.

Speaking of the moon, you don't think Rockwell, Lockheed, and all the other contractors who put together the space program did that pro-bono do you?

And single payer will further enable Celgene, JandJ, Merck, Abbott etc. to market new products just as outsourcing jobs from NASA. Actually, we'd see quicker advances in science with single payer. 

The healthcare system should reject smoker's treatment for cancer and the diabetic's treatment for wound care and heart disease.

You seem to think insurance companies are part of our health care system. Only by fiat.

[Conan71]

And single payer will further enable Celgene, JandJ, Merck, Abbott etc. to market new products just as outsourcing jobs from NASA. Actually, we'd see quicker advances in science with single payer. 

The healthcare system should reject smoker's treatment for cancer and the diabetic's treatment for wound care and heart disease.

You seem to think insurance companies are part of our health care system. Only by fiat.

No, Obama seems confused on that issue.  He re-jiggered the health insurance industry and claimed he fixed healthcare.

[Teatownclown]

The GOP tried and failed to defeat the passage of Obamacare. They tried and failed to defeat the re-election of Obama. So they have changed their strategy.

Now they are trying to minimize or destroy Obamacare, so that Obama's legacy is tarnished, so that they can crow about what a bad idea Obamacare is, and so they can smear as many Democrats as possible in 2014 and 2016.

[dbacks fan]

The healthcare system should reject smoker's treatment for cancer and the diabetic's treatment for wound care and heart disease.
 

Not only are you an insufferable twit, now you support the idea of death panels. Marvelous. Why don't you turn into a vegan and go out and eat the grass in the field like the rest of the sheeple. Whatever koolaid you are drinking, I won't be a part of. So do we let people that are non-smokers that get cancer die because they are geneticaly predisposed of cancer? How about down syndrome? What about autism? Just put them down like an animal? How about other cancer illnesses? Guess you want to be part of the judge/jury/executioner of people. Guess I should let my father who is diabetic die because he's old and has Parkinsons and potentially dementia, and possibly Alzheimer's as well. What a wonderful perfect little world you live in. Got a serious illness? To bad, go die, and let the rest of us live. That way your not a financial burden to anyone else.

I'm not taking your words out of context, you opened the door with your comment.

[heironymouspasparagus]

No, Obama seems confused on that issue.  He re-jiggered the health insurance industry and claimed he fixed healthcare.

Will need changes, I suspect, but since he just took the Republican plan and got it passed - well, one would have to expect a certain amount of failure to that based on past performance...!!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Not only are you an insufferable twit, now you support the idea of death panels. Marvelous. Why don't you turn into a vegan and go out and eat the grass in the field like the rest of the sheeple. Whatever koolaid you are drinking, I won't be a part of. So do we let people that are non-smokers that get cancer die because they are geneticaly predisposed of cancer? How about down syndrome? What about autism? Just put them down like an animal? How about other cancer illnesses? Guess you want to be part of the judge/jury/executioner of people. Guess I should let my father who is diabetic die because he's old and has Parkinsons and potentially dementia, and possibly Alzheimer's as well. What a wonderful perfect little world you live in. Got a serious illness? To bad, go die, and let the rest of us live. That way your not a financial burden to anyone else.

I'm not taking your words out of context, you opened the door with your comment.

You do realize that as wacko as he is, he was doing the "jump to the most extreme view" of what Conan was complaining about - and back and forth through the ages.... the whole thread is pretty much a meaningless mess at this point.

[Gaspar]

Not only are you an insufferable twit, now you support the idea of death panels. Marvelous. Why don't you turn into a vegan and go out and eat the grass in the field like the rest of the sheeple. Whatever koolaid you are drinking, I won't be a part of. So do we let people that are non-smokers that get cancer die because they are geneticaly predisposed of cancer? How about down syndrome? What about autism? Just put them down like an animal? How about other cancer illnesses? Guess you want to be part of the judge/jury/executioner of people. Guess I should let my father who is diabetic die because he's old and has Parkinsons and potentially dementia, and possibly Alzheimer's as well. What a wonderful perfect little world you live in. Got a serious illness? To bad, go die, and let the rest of us live. That way your not a financial burden to anyone else.

I'm not taking your words out of context, you opened the door with your comment.

Socialists hate the freedom to choose because in many cases it leads to the freedom to choose poorly.  The consequence for a smoker who pays for his own medical insurance is that he has to pay a higher premium.  The consequence for a diabetic who does not comply with his dietary requirements is that he too is forced to pay a higher premium.  Under a socialist system those consequences disappear, so the clown is indeed correct, it is necessary for the system to mitigate expenses through denial of service.  It however goes far beyond that.  There is in fact no need for "Death Panels" because the system regulates itself through attrition.

Today, if a 78 year old man requires a tripple bypass and he is healthy enough for such a procedure, he can have it and spend some extra years with his family (happens every day).  Because medicare only covers a fraction of the expense for this, it may be difficult to find a doctor willing unless the patient has a supplemental plan.  If Medicare is all he has, and the surgen/hospital are willing to perform the procedure, they will simply recoup the additional expenses from other patients over time, artificially driving up the price of all medical care.  Under a single payer system there will be fewer physicians performing such procedures because of the expense, however, there will be far more patients requesting them.  As with England, Canada, Astrailia, New Zealand and others, healthy folks enjoy the socialized systems because it offers one less set of personal responsibilities to be concerned about, however the older population and those with chronic health problems are the ones that suffer.  Diagnostic tests can take months or years to acquire, unless the patient is willing to pay for a private clinic or travel to another country.

In the US, our 78 year old can have an angeogram the same day the physician detects an arrhythmia.  If the doctor then determines that he is 98% occluded on one anterior, and 60-80% on two others, he can book a surgical suite that day and complete a tripple bypass.  In a single payer country the patient would need to go on a waiting list for an angeogram, and then another for the surgery.  In the case of our 78 year old, there is a high likelihood he would not survive.  This is actually by design, because if he did survive to have his angeogram, that would mean that someone else, perhaps someone younger, has to wait longer.  If he survived to have is surgery, that would mean that surgical slot would be delayed for someone else who perhaps was more healthy and still paying into the system.  Single payer systems are very good at reducing cost by "allowing nature to take its course."