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Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2008, 08:16:19 am In another world (ie. internet forum) a schlub from El Paso started talking smack about Tulsa. Basically that we were a crime ridden arm pit of the world. I jumped on my high horse and road off into the internet to prove him wrong.
To my shock, I can not. El Paso Texas, along with nearly every other mid-sized city, makes Tulsa look like a crime ridden cesspool. We DOUBLE the national average per capita for rapes, murders, assaults, and other violent crimes. We manage to sneak in with an average score for more property crimes. http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tulsa&state=OK (2006 data, but the most handy format to compare cities) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate (2007 crime count by city, sorry for the wiki source by it's handy) We rank (per capita) in the top 30 for murder and manslaughter. WE crack the top 25 for theft, burglary, property crime, and overall violent crime rate. And we post a stellar top ten performance for assault, arson and rape. I admit some odd unexpected cities pop up. Portland has a high arson rate. Wichita a high rape rate. But among the usual suspects (Detroit, Toledo, Memphis, Oakland) Tulsa makes it to the top far too often. I was surprised. We employ 826 officers and 108 civilian staff for a city under 400,000 people (1 officer/per 464 people). El Paso, which has 610,000 residents employs 1100/300 (1/554). Omaha has 820 for it's 430K people (1/525). Portland employs 1150/350 for it's 570+K people (1/493) . Albuquerque is working towards 1100 officers for it's nearly 500,000 people (1/454). Our ratio is in line with Wichita, it is in line with or well below all these places and yet our crime far exceeds all those places. What gives? A new study says Tulsa should hire 100 more officers and shuffle around the staff: http://newsok.com/report-tulsa-should-hire-more-police-officers/article/3302594/?tm=1222357540 Why are we not able to maintain an average (or below) level of crime with the same resources every other city uses? Tulsa is behind El Paso. Really? It continuously seems like we can't get anything done in this town. I'm getting frustrated. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 07, 2008, 09:21:37 am Here's a coule of dirty little secrets that insiders here talk about. One is that Tulsa is geographically well located for drug trafficking. We have all the infrastructure necessary without all the attention that Miami or LA demand. So, we are a good logistics site. Product arrives by interstate and private airports and is transported to the coasts and the midwest with little interruption. Ever think about how busy our little airports are and why? OKC is good too, but far less hassle in lil ole Tulsa and we're so easy to live in. The major players are gangs from the coasts and they are moving here. There is friction. Yet sociologically we are unprepared for the havoc this industry brings anymore than we were prepared for the downside of casino gambling. Our reputation as a city that operates like a town is well known. We simply don't face problems head on. We refused to believe that gangs were even here till late in the 90's.
Two, local authority is rumored to be easily bought, unethical attorneys are voluminous and hungry. These are the same criteria that made us a haven for illegal immigration too. I'll take the risk and point out what the four obstacles to progress are that collide in Tulsa: Casinos, loss of major oil industry, Fundamentalism and drug trafficking. They all combine to suck up the bulk of disposable income and tax revenues. And since Tulsa has such wide disparity in income levels its doubtful the average person in leadership circles is even aware of the relationships forged by being poorly paid and educated. They just want to build more jails. Doubt there's much data supporting my thesis. Who would want to document it? Certainly not the casinoes, religious extremists, authorities or drug dealers. Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty frustrated by the whole process and don't care anymore about niceties. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: Michael71 on October 07, 2008, 09:45:09 am quote: What is your issue with casinos? Isn't disposable income...err, disposable income? I do alot of business with them & they seem to be honest & well organized. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: MH2010 on October 07, 2008, 09:49:56 am quote: Can you find how many civilian employees those cities have to work along with the sworn officers? I would bet they have more or almost double what Tulsa currently has. Don't assume that we actually have 826 officers working on the "streets". One of the problems with our police department is that alot of them are currently doing jobs that civilians could be doing. The manpower study talked about it at length but I don't have it in front of me to quote from it. There are other issues but I'll try to get back to the thread later and talk about them. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: Conan71 on October 07, 2008, 09:52:55 am quote: Are you on the giving or recieving end of business w/ the casinos? [}:)] Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: unknown on October 07, 2008, 10:08:14 am http://www.kjrh.com/media/news/4/c/7/4c76a716-3f45-4818-b10d-f206d93b516e/Part_1_3_yearsnew.pdf
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75585 Texas says it is seeing an increase in violet crime due to illegals coming from Oklahoma and Arizona Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: MH2010 on October 07, 2008, 10:11:07 am quote: Can you find how many civilian employees those cities have to work along with the sworn officers? I would bet they have more or almost double what Tulsa currently has. Don't assume that we actually have 826 officers working on the "streets". One of the problems with our police department is that alot of them are currently doing jobs that civilians could be doing. The manpower study talked about it at length but I don't have it in front of me to quote from it. There are other issues but I'll try to get back to the thread later and talk about them. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2008, 10:13:45 am MH: I provided a little info on officer/civilian forces (El Paso) but generally good stats are hard to come by. Not sure why. I thought I would easily find a list of officers by city.
There's a Sociology, Criminology, or City Planning masters study in this for someone I'm sure. - - - The problem with Casino's is not Joe Blow Accountant going out with some friends and dropping $300 in the poker room - it's Joe Mechanic or Mama Social Security dropping their entire pay check. Or the attorney dropping his kids college money. The casual player is very good for the economy, money circulates around. Not the casino's fault that people don't know when to pocket their chips I guess. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TUalum0982 on October 07, 2008, 10:22:21 am CF I am not going to argue or refute your stats and I enjoy reading your posts, but crime stats can be very misleading and skewed. They are biased in the aspect that they can be contorted and twisted into whatever point the "author" is trying to convey.
Once again, not trying to argue or disagree with you, but alot of crimes go unreported or aren't counted in the tabulation at all. EDIT: I personally think we could use more officers in the city of Tulsa. When I interned with TPD, I was told numerous times by numerous officials that their manpower levels are at the same level as they were in the 80's not to mention all the officers they have lot to retirement, military and going elsewhere to pursue other jobs/careers. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2008, 11:03:31 am Alum: I agree and understands stats can be skewed. But it seems unlikely that Tulsa would for some reason report twice as many crimes per capita without there being some correlation with reality. If that is the case, we need to change our reporting scheme to bring it in line with the rest of the nation.
Appearance is as important to an engineer in Detroit considering El Paso or Tulsa as a new home - and it appears El Paso is the much safer city. In fact, other than the stats it is very hard to get a good feel for it. You can live in a high crime area and not be a victim, or you can live in rural Oklahoma and see your daughter gunned down for no reason. Statistics are what we have to rely on to see the bigger picture, if ours are skewed they should be corrected. Still the cities problem. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: patric on October 07, 2008, 11:13:23 am Not going to be an easy answer to that one.
Too many ingredients in the mix -- you can attribute some spikes to things like hurricane evacuees or economic downturns, as well as shifts in political attitudes (high-profile policing for prevention Vs low-profile policing for revenue collection), etc. Weve never really been realistic in the "war on drugs" because it's a medical problem that has snowballed into a multi-billion dollar industry on both sides. quote: When I was a renter I lived across from an officer near TU who never seemed to leave his house for more than a few minutes. Long enough to get groceries and fill up the cruiser whose engine he routinely left running in the street. Never figured that one out (he also kept goats in the back yard [:O] so go figure). Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 07, 2008, 11:17:36 am quote: Well organized for sure. For every dollar that enters their doors, 98 cents stays with the casino. That is money going to a separate country. The state of Oklahoma receives less than the taxes recieved when you spend the same amount of money at Target. Of course, Target does not discriminate by nationality when they hire. And they don't create social damage. I'm glad you receive some benefit either with a business relationship or through winnings but the sad truth is that the entire city's personality changed when they were allowed to expand. Don't take my word for it, take a phone book from ten or twenty years ago and look at the variety of small businesses in entertainment, shopping, theatre etc. that was available vs now. Look at who the large advertisers were. Look at OKC who has one tiny bingo hall and compare their opportunities to ours. Look at how tax revenues were affected. It is a net negative as far as revenue and business development for the city not to mention the increase in gambling maladies like addiction. But yeah, they're well run and organized. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: PonderInc on October 07, 2008, 11:22:28 am I know a guy who's a detective in the Tulsa PD. He says that compulsive gambling has fueled an increase in burglaries in Tulsa.
He says that whenever they're looking for a suspect in a burglary, the first thing they do is stake out the casinos and watch for their cars. He even said that some people will tell you that they can go a few days without drugs, but they need to gamble every day! Yikes! Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: MH2010 on October 07, 2008, 11:23:51 am quote: I could never find them either. I'm glad I wasn't the only one. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TheArtist on October 07, 2008, 12:34:30 pm We have been through this converstation before trying to find what causes our area to be high crime, high divorce rates, suicide, high drug use, high rates of child abuse and neglect, high rates of hunger, obesity, poor health, tobacco use, etc. etc. etc. In just about every such category we rank down in the bottom 5 states.
When I posited the usual suspects of low income levels and education...Cannon brought up a bunch of stats showing that we didnt do that poorly in those areas. So I dont know what the deal is. One can take other guesses... but its usually things that you cant politically change or people would get upset and angry about. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2008, 12:40:36 pm if I recall correctly (I stand to be corrected) it is not that we excel at education or income levels, but cities with similar or worse stats in those areas (Albuquerque nor El Paso are educated or wealthy).
I'm not meaning to gripe. I'm just frustrated by a ton of things in Tulsa lately. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cynical on October 07, 2008, 01:13:58 pm quote: I've traveled to El Paso at least one time per year for the past 33 years. I often swing by Albuquerque on those trips. By most measures, both cities are poorer than Tulsa and under-perform educationally. In one year when Jenks HS had 17 National Merit semifinalists and BTW had a bunch, (2000, I think), the entire City of El Paso had 2. No, it's not education. If you spend time in those towns, though, you detect something else. It's activity. El Paso, especially, is a busy place. El Paso is 78% Hispanic. Albuquerque is about 44% Hispanic. Tulsa County is about 7.6% Hispanic. Do we need more Hispanics? Seriously. To most Hispanic-Americans, "family values" is more than an empty slogan. How El Paso escapes being a murder capitol with the huge gang war going on across the border is puzzling. My guess is that the police there seem to know what they're doing. But in Tulsa the "conservative" philosophy that prevails doesn't seem to translate much into behavior any more than it translates into competitiveness or economic growth. Oklahoma City went through that stage a few years ago and seems to have grown out of it. I actually saw an article on the NewsOK.com web site that described OKC as "progressive." I'm glad I wasn't drinking coffee at the time. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: carltonplace on October 07, 2008, 01:43:49 pm quote: I think waterboy's point is that the four groups he mentioned: radical religion, gambling, drugs and loss of our once core business contribute to keep the down-trodden the down-trodden. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 07, 2008, 01:55:50 pm quote: Yes, and their large growth contributes mightily as an obstacle to the city progressing. Simply put, those four keep city tax collections low, commercial growth low and social costs high. Medical, non profits (social services), call centers and miscellaneous. These are the largest headings in the employment section of the Sunday World. Largest advertiser is Creek Nation and other Casinoes. That sort of defines where we are right now. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TUalum0982 on October 07, 2008, 03:28:37 pm quote: this somewhat explains I guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics none the less, I agree. I have lived here all my life and I have always thought that we had a high crime rate...most notably murder, rape, and armed robbery for a city of our size. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 07, 2008, 04:53:03 pm I'm surprised crime is so high in "T" Towne, Columbus, Ohio also has higher crime rates than normal if you compair the city with others on "Monster Moving" or on other city compairson web sites. Memphis, TN is king for auto theft as is Phoenix. The D/FW MetroPlex has alot of crime, parts of Arlington that were nice in the 1980's are like dumps today. The Indian Creek Apratments were I lived were nice back in 1984 today it's full of section 8 housing and crime and drug ridden.[xx(]
Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 07, 2008, 04:56:33 pm quote:The crime reports should always be listed as rates per 100,000 population to be accurate. Some cities are larger than others so they would have more crime. Albuquerque is kind of high in drug-related crimes. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: MDepr2007 on October 07, 2008, 05:50:10 pm People do not care about you or your property . Morals are not as prevelant as years ago and now many don't feel bad for what they do, it's nothing to them.
Then some watch our leaders and learn from them eckkkk [:D] gee just look around here [:o)] Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TheArtist on October 07, 2008, 09:15:52 pm quote: The point is... Why are OUR morals not as prevalent as they supposedly are in other, lower crime, cities? Why dont people feel bad for what they do here? We live in the buckle of the bible belt with a church on just about every corner. Also, as per casinos, just as you can point to some crimes occuring because they exist, that doesnt point to the reason as to why so many people choose to go to them and think they are going to get rich. If only the seriously addicted went, I doubt that they would do as well as they do. Its like saying fast food joints cause bad health and obesity. Sure some people are naturally "heavier" and would be regardless,,, but that can in no way account for why 25% or more of us are!? The crime was higher in these parts BEFORE the casinos got here, but that doesnt explain why so many people flocked to them when they came. There is still something fundamentally different about this area and the way people live, act, think, reason, that makes us different and have so many worse problems. There seems to be an undercurrent of meanness that hides right behind the "howdy". There is the "welcome brother smile" that turns ugly when the person finds out you dont think or believe exactly as they do, a propensity towards "magical thinking". I think some of that comes from the particular and predominant strains of Christianity we see in these parts. I have noticed that even though there are different strains of Christianity here,,, many of the different "types" are more similar to each other, and are actually more different than their counterparts in other parts of the country. Some of the Methodist churches here can be more fundamentalist, pentecostal, conservative than Baptist churches in other parts of the country. Throughout our history there have been battles between different strains of Christianity. Baptists were literally tortured and killed. Pentecostals would likely have their tongues cut out for "speaking in tongues" in certain areas. And cultures and societies emerged from those different Christian traditions, each taking on different characteristics that could be said to have an influence even today. Bostonian religious and societal attitudes will be different than Minneapolis Minnesota, those different from here, those different from El-Paso, Salt Lake City, etc. Even those who arent avid church goers in a community, still pick up on and can reflect the prevailing attitudes, priorities, etc. And like finds like, where you get a perpetuating cycle of the people making and influencing the kinds of churches, the churches influencing people... And you cant deny that religion is a BIG part of this community. It HAS to have a major influence on the kind of society we find ourselves in here. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: Wilbur on October 08, 2008, 05:17:57 am Two points:
1. Tulsan's complain more about their roads then their crime rate. Until that changes, your elected officials are going to throw more money at roads then they throw at crime. Of Tulsa's 826 police officers, only 770+ are actually available to 'work'. That 826 number includes officers in training (you can't use those), those who are away on military leave (you can't use those) and those who are injured/pregnant, ........ (you can't use those). Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 08, 2008, 07:11:16 am Wilbur, that could be a problem of comparing apples to apples then - are the other cities including those or not? Why is there no good data on police, crime rates, and demographics? I thought it would be an easy FBI crime database search.
But hey, it's good to know the $2tril or so we spent on the war on drugs means my boy will never smoke pot... might get raped, mugged, or murdered, but surely not smoke pot.[xx(] Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TUalum0982 on October 08, 2008, 07:32:12 am quote: Everything is a tradeoff CF!! all kidding aside, I agree with you. But from what I have come to understand, the number of officers that the cities say they have, are actually sworn officers....they don't break them down into who can actually work, who cant, who is on military leave, who is out on medical leave, etc etc. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 08, 2008, 07:52:16 am quote: The point is... Why are OUR morals not as prevalent as they supposedly are in other, lower crime, cities? Why dont people feel bad for what they do here? We live in the buckle of the bible belt with a church on just about every corner. Now that is a good question. I'm not sure the case is made that other cities are any different in make-up than ours. It could be a case of more effective leadership, policing, income distribution, drug use etc. Also, as per casinos, just as you can point to some crimes occuring because they exist, that doesnt point to the reason as to why so many people choose to go to them and think they are going to get rich. If only the seriously addicted went, I doubt that they would do as well as they do. Its like saying fast food joints cause bad health and obesity. Sure some people are naturally "heavier" and would be regardless,,, but that can in no way account for why 25% or more of us are!? You either believe in the power of marketing and advertising or you don't. The biggest advertiser in Tulsa other than groceries and cars is....Casinoes. They don't necessarily create addiction, they expose it and enable it. It is like fast food marketing in many ways. If that is the predominant offering in your market and it is heavily advertised then your market is going to be 25% overweight. Tulsa has long been referred to as the fast food, convenience store capital of America. Here's a little insight as to why. THEY ARE VERY PROFITABLE! The explosion of franchises of all types in Tulsa starting in the late 70's, is a testament to the economic savvy or our investment class. Tulsa also has extremely high car ownership per capita rivalling LA. No surprise then that we suffer more of the problems associated with obesity, gambling, auto theft and credit abuse. Look at HOW they advertise to explain WHY so many people attend. They show winners, they show sophistication, they show excitement and they show comeraderie. Who wouldn't want to be part of that? How long would they survive if they showed the public the reality which is despair, gambling addiction support groups, burglary, robbery and heavy smokers? Or that out of every dollar spent at a casino, 98 cents stays with the casino? The crime was higher in these parts BEFORE the casinos got here, but that doesnt explain why so many people flocked to them when they came. I don't know why you think this is true. Tulsa is not historically a high crime area. Having lived here as an adult both before and after the explosive growth of casinoes, I would assert the opposite is true and more logical. They flocked to them because they were promoted, advertised and something new and different. Of course people found them inviting. If anything differentiates Tulsa demographics from other communities our size, it could be explained by our younger than natl. average age of 35yrs old according to census data. To me its just the nexus of the four elements I detailed. Crime proliferates where there is perceived injustice, inequality, widely disparate income distribution, substance abuse and a wide disparity in education. Moral values seem to make little difference. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 08, 2008, 09:28:35 am quote:It could be from changing cultures and new commers to our cities that are making alot of the changers. Why are high schools getting more dangerous as years pass and require metal dectectors and cameras that they did not have have years ago? I'm a high school grad of the 1970's and we never had school lockdowns, metal dectectors/cameras in the schools. What has changed in our schools since the 1970's? When I was in 2nd grade during show & tell a boy brought into class his dad's hunting rifle to show the class- Today that could never be done and the gun was kept all day on the coat rack shelf inside a 2nd grade classroom -hard to believe that. Another thing we had in the 1970's is during our Christmas concert the school band and chorus sang Christmas church songs, not so long ago in 1973. Today that church stuff is banned from public schools times really changed in my lifetime.. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 08, 2008, 09:45:07 am quote: A ton of things. 1) I would point to a lack of parenting by many people. Schools are not supposed to raise your kids, you are. What happens at school doesn't stay at school. 2) Lack of enforcement. I'm not advocating beating of children at school, but given that many parents don't care either why should a kid? He can go to school knowing he can't get in real trouble there and go home and know they don't care either. 3) Everyone is a winner. This shift in attitude has disrupted a decent pecking order in school. No one can be a loser, everyone gets trophies, competition is bad. Coupled with a social intolerance for any sort of conflict nothing gets worked out o the school yard anymore. "Back in the day" Johnny would lip off to Billy, and someone would get popped. End of it. Now it festers for years and a gun gets brought in to the mix. 4) Tons of changed with the schools themselves too: There is a stronger teachers union, so we can't fire teachers that are worthless. Busing programs have mixed otherwise non-neighborhood kids together while self segregation has increased tension in other areas (not necessarily racial). Too many parents have become whining little scabs who assume their kid is right and the teacher is wrong. Our response to any and all of this? We've thrown money at it. We have more money per pupal than ever before, and we are not getting the results. Bah, I had better end this somewhat tangential rant. - - - I do not believe because our schools are no longer indoctrinating children they have all turned into criminals. It seems the 18 hours a day and the other 180 days of the year parents should be able to instill values into their children just as well as they always have. Especially in the bible belt. But alas, godless Portland has a lower crime rate and better schools than the buckle of the bible belt. So there goes that theory. Unless god hates Tulsa and loves Portland I'd there are serious flaws in that theory (and/or he's Catholic and that's why he favors El Paso). Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: Denizen on October 08, 2008, 11:54:34 am I wonder if statistics are skewed somewhat because they don't include the suburbs. In some places in Texas, I believe, more liberal annexation laws allow cities to take over newer, low crime areas that might be separately incorporated in Oklahoma.
Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 09, 2008, 04:06:46 pm quote:Indeed, you bring up good points. When I was in school they used the paddle on us kids. I had a teacher in 8th grade that when the kids returned from lunch rowdy one day the teacher asked them to be quiet a few times, (the teacher was busy at her desk finishing up some work) the kids did not settle down until she brought out the paddle and banged it on her desk and she said "I'm on the war path today just try me I said be quiet" you could of heard a pin drop. Discipline is a big key in our schools. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: Conan71 on October 09, 2008, 09:23:37 pm quote: Sounds like my science teacher at Barnard Elementary, Mrs. Crain. She kept the paddle on her desk. I don't know what was worse back in school: bending over and waiting to get the swats or the actual physical pain of them. One of the principals at Jenks had a reputation of making even the hardest thugs come out of his office wiping tears off their cheeks. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TheArtist on October 09, 2008, 09:37:00 pm quote: Goodness, what kind of monster were you to get in trouble so often lol? I never got in trouble. I was always the good little boy that sat in front, was teachers pet, had my homework held up as the example of how good work should look, and got perfect attendance. I still have the certificates to prove it [:D] lol. You were probably the thug that would pick on me on the playground or in the hallways.[B)] Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 10, 2008, 09:47:26 am I think school paddling is banned just about all over the country now. It was used for over 100 years and worked fine. Lack of discipline is a big problem in our schools. Bad kids disrupt a class and the kids who want to learn can't.. I had a 7th grade Art teacher 4th hour, she was very attractive but she gave very hard swats, (as paddling was called in our school). This was in Michigan.. That must of been around 1968 or so. My Junior High School (today called a middle school) did alot of paddling, normally in front of the class.[B)]
Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 10, 2008, 10:40:53 am quote: Our middle school coach, in the 60's, had two paddles. A wooden one he made in shop class, and a special plastic one with holes drilled in it for more sting. He seldom used them but often spoke of them. It was abusive, plain and simple. Any talk of how well disciplined kids were in the old days because of paddling is lost on me. I was there, it didn't work well at all and it was neanderthal. If that coach used one on my kid today he would answer to my rage. By the time we got to High School paddling was laughable. One of my fellow classmates took umbrage with the constant pestering of a smart aleck ex TU football player who was teaching Phys Ed. The student nailed him with one punch in front of the whole class. To his credit, the gym teacher got up, dusted himself off, and said, "We need to talk with a counselor. Follow me." The student did and they both returned the next day with a much better relationship! Act like an adult and treat kids with respect and they'll return it. If they don't, behave like an adult anyway. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: buckeye on October 10, 2008, 12:43:23 pm Maybe the counselor had a better swing.
Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 10, 2008, 01:04:40 pm quote: [:D]The counselor definitely had more swing. The phys ed instructor could have pounded the kid. He later played on a semi pro team here called the Tulsa Thunder. He was a weight lifter and quite buff. But he valued his career more and it ended up well for both of them. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: cannon_fodder on October 10, 2008, 03:57:06 pm To clarify - I am not an advocate of school child beatings. I would be OK if the primary objective was humiliation (getting spanked in front of the class certainly would be so) and not pain - but I understand setting such a boundary institutionally is really hard. If my child was struck I would have mixed reactions, if it was hard enough to leave a mark I would NOT be happy. Kind of a mixed bag...
But teachers are afraid to punish a kid in nearly any fashion. That's my point. Make him sit in a corner with a dunce hat on if you want (humiliation can get the job done) or send him down a grade until he gets his homework done. Whatever works for THAT kid. I make sure my sons teachers know they are in charge and what they say goes, at school and it can follow him home. Odd tangent we got into. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 11, 2008, 02:59:39 pm I strongly favor paddling in the schools, it works wonders. However, In todays world everything is nutsville, the parents take the kids side and turn against the teacher in issues of discipline, and parents threaten to sue. In the days of bygone eras the parents took the side of the teachers. It's a different world today. Today any redding or bruise is child abuse, 40 years ago teachers would turn a kids rump black & blue and when the kid got home the parents gave him some more. Some of the teachers I had in school would have been jailed if they did what they did when I was in school today.. We also learned in school and when we walked across that stage at our grad. we could read and write and even read a tape measure (something many of todays kids can't do). Todays kids can't even fill out a job app. Colleges have to give kids refreshers. We spend more on our schools than most other nations and turn out some of the worlds dumbest students. There should not be any computers in the classrooms. The kids need to learn the 3 "R's" first.[:o)]
Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: waterboy on October 11, 2008, 06:46:26 pm quote: Are you from OK? Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 13, 2008, 10:40:46 am quote:No, I lived in OK for only 8 months. I have lived in 5 states. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: jne on October 13, 2008, 11:46:04 am quote: The hardest thugs at Jenks LOL! Oh IP - you come from a hardened stock. HAHA Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 20, 2008, 09:49:22 am It seems to me after reading many of the links posted here that crime in Tulsa is spread out pretty much evenly all over the metro area. [xx(]
Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: TheArtist on October 20, 2008, 02:30:42 pm My mom was a middle school and high school teacher for many years. I actually had her as my 9th grade geology teacher in Owasso. She did something that was very unique in her classes. After each test the students would be arranged according to the grade they made. The highest scoring student would sit in the first seat in the first row on down to the lowest grade student, last seat, last row.
I found that this changed the classroom dynamics considerably. 1. Intelligence and doing well was suddenly valued. Didnt matter what clothes you wore, how rich or poor you were, how good you were on the football field, how popular or good looking you were, etc. What mattered was doing good work, learning, and making the best grade you could. During study periods or team projects, the opposite rows and students were paired to work together. The smartest kid would team up with and help the least smartest. 2. Every test gave you the opportunity to improve so it instilled a bit of competitive spirit, and one that was centered around learning. 3. It turned out to be a great equalizer. I remember this really popular, pretty, blond girl. She would snob other people down, some girls in her clique wanted to be like her, etc. It was amaaazing how things changed after that first test when suddenly she was one of the last people sitting in the last row with some of the thugs. She didnt come off as being "hot stuff" then. It was also interesting to see the dynamics of the "jock" who did end up in the "nerd/good grade" section. When we paired up in opposite teams, well, ok, I was one of the 4eyed nerds battling it out for the first chair... but then we would get paired with the opposite not-so-bright student. It was great, I actually became friends with someone I would have otherwise never talked to. We had to work together, us nerds generally love helping out and figuring out ways to help our teammate understand things and do better. We would not only compete for first row and first chair, but also to try and get our teammate to do well and move up. 4. Cheating was cut way down. The smart kids didnt cheat off each other, and the dumb kids were at least smart enough to know that it wouldnt do any good to cheat off the other dumb kid next to them. 5. Discipline was also a bit easier to control because people didnt always sit by their usual trouble maker friends, and the teacher could practically ignore the smart half, discipline wise, and keep an eagle eye on the other side of the room lol. Same thing with the teaching in general, the teacher could spend more time on a particular subject because they could be more aware of what was going on. Its easier to read the "I dont get this at all" expressions if they are concentrated in one corner. And trust me they would be more vocal about not getting something when it was a group of them, they felt more secure in saying, Hey WE dont get this. I wish that other classes had done the same thing. One class or subject, one kid may excel in, another do poorly in. Lots of kids could have their chance at a point of pride. Some kids are good at certain sports and not others. Some kids are good at English, others Math, others Science, Art, History, etc. This type of thing isnt a "be all end all" idea by any stretch. But it could be something to consider throwing into the mix with other practices and school policies. It seems that often times kids are valuing all kinds of things in school BUT learning (popularity, hair, clothes, being tough, good at sports, having this or that, etc). This helped to put learning right back into the mix. Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: mrburns918 on October 21, 2008, 08:12:13 am Mills Elementary in Owasso still uses a paddle. I found this out while I was driving in western OK. The principal called me via cell that my son is in trouble again. He had been in trouble the previous day and I had to go to the office. I was enraged, asked the principal what she thought should happen. She said "I can paddle him". I replied that I didn't realize you could anymore. She let me know that by state law she could and not even have to get my permission. I responded with "spank him and I will deal with him when I get back home".
I want to be clear that my son is not a trouble maker and a straight "A" student, it was if he was on a two day binge of acting out. After my experiences with catholic schools as a child I vowed that no one would ever lay a hand on my children. I can count on one hand how many times I have spanked my son. After the incident my son never got in trouble again at school. He said the spanking hurt, but it was because he was embarrassed about it that straightened him up. Mr. Burns Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: sauerkraut on October 21, 2008, 10:07:38 am quote:I support you. I think letting her spank the kid was a good choice. I would of done the same. Spankings seem to do wonders in my opinion that no other punishment can meet or match. Those "Time-out boxes" for punishment are a joke. I guess spanking works because it's a combo of the pain and embaresment, mostly the embaresment.[8D] Title: Tulsa Crime Post by: jne on October 21, 2008, 01:06:52 pm I think the paddling can definitely be effective when we're talking about humiliating a grade-school kid, but once you get into junior high, I think your playing with fire. Kids start to be more experimental with violence and begin to measure themselves up to adults physically. Taking a kid into the office for an act of violence and smacking him with a paddle - the message is not clear and it could escalate the violence. I know at the junior high I went to you might get yourself hurt trying to paddle a rough unstable 14 yr old (not to mention some parents).
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