The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I realize that one argument against this would be that it would hurt "mom and pop" package stores. But I would like to pre-emptively counter this by pointing out that liquor stores still have the ability to compete based on price, service, and variety of product against supermarkets.

Additionally, Oklahoma has been bypassed by certain grocers, and one of the reasons often given is that fact that we do not allow wine sales in grocery stores.

Good points.  Thanks for picking this up on FB and posting.  I've already emailed my Senator and Representative.  Who wants to email Sally Kern? ;)

Arkansas: Making Oklahoma look progressive since 1836.

It's a great idea, but has little to no chance of passing thanks to the Party of No being in charge of the Sooner State.  It's pretty bad when Arkansas has more rational liquor laws.  Arkansas: Making Oklahoma look progressive since 1836.

...thanks to the Party of No being in charge of the Sooner State.... 

I was actually just going through legislation after hearing about another bill to legalize home beer brewing and came across this.

Also of note: HJR1062 would allow breweries (Marshall's) to sell beer on the premise.

I'm assuming none of these proposals have any effect on Oklahoma's low-point beer laws?

Chiche' IDIOCY alert!

(http://www.tshirtbordello.com/images/che-Cliche-shirt-lg.gif)

Our liquor laws are embarrassing. I had a friend fly in from Seattle over the summer on a Sunday. I have been telling him what a cool city Tulsa is but that was slapped in my face within an hour off the plane. He wanted a bottle wine for dinner. I had to tell him about our dated laws. So we had to go into Sonoma on Brookside and buy an opened bottle from the bar. It came off real cool. He was looking at me like he just landed in the twilight zone. I just dont get why Oklahoma is so happy to be 50 to 100 years behind the rest of the country. It gets old.

I wrote emails to all of the senators who voted no, letting them know that I don't understand what's wrong with letting this go to a vote of the people, and that I find it insulting that apparently these senators don't think we are competent enough to vote on the laws that govern us. This is the one reply I have received.

Senator Burrage’s vote on the liquor/wine issue was made strictly to protect the small business owners in his District.  Sales tax revenue for Rogers and Mayes County would be lost from our counties that so desperately need the revenue in order to offer services to the citizens in that area, such as police protection, fire protection, repairing roads and bridges, etc.  The bill only affects Tulsa and Oklahoma City, but we didn’t want to lose our local shoppers to Tulsa County.  There is also a concern that law enforcement was fearful they couldn’t enforce the laws to keep underage persons from purchasing liquor and wine.

I wrote emails to all of the senators who voted no, letting them know that I don't understand what's wrong with letting this go to a vote of the people, and that I find it insulting that apparently these senators don't think we are competent enough to vote on the laws that govern us. This is the one reply I have received.

Senator Burrage’s vote on the liquor/wine issue was made strictly to protect the small business owners in his District.  Sales tax revenue for Rogers and Mayes County would be lost from our counties that so desperately need the revenue in order to offer services to the citizens in that area, such as police protection, fire protection, repairing roads and bridges, etc.  The bill only affects Tulsa and Oklahoma City, but we didn’t want to lose our local shoppers to Tulsa County.  There is also a concern that law enforcement was fearful they couldn’t enforce the laws to keep underage persons from purchasing liquor and wine.

How many of these "small business owners" are there? Protect the few at the cost of the many?

I'm going to talk to CF and see what needs to be done to get a legal petition put together and get it circulating.  I really don't appreciate a handful of Senaturds allowing their thinly-veiled morality to keep me from voting on a measure removing limitations on where I can spend my money.

I don't think not having high point beer or wine in grocery stores keeps conventions away or leads to halitosis, but I also don't see how this could hurt the liquor distributors, and really think the potential harm to liquor stores is overblown.  If they want to protect "mom-and-pop businesses" from competition, they should legislate a moritorium on licensing more bars and new liquor stores, and especially out of state restaurant chains who have bars in them.

There may well be people who never go into a liquor store in the first place who might start to enjoy a real craft beer or wine simply because of the added convenience of being able to buy it at the grocery store or thinking of a pairing with a certain meal.  If anything, I think having it in more locations improves the potential sales numbers.  As well, craft beers are generally $2 to $3 more per six pack than a domestic 3.2.  Since sales taxes are computed on a % of $ spent, that means a bigger gross haul for the state and local municipalities.  I seldom buy 3.2 anymore but if I want 3.2, I generally go to a convenience store to get it for two reasons- it's usually cheaper (even cheaper than Wal-Mart Market) and I can get in and out quicker.  The only times I buy beer at the GC is when it's a matter of convenience while doing my normal grocery shopping.

I can assure you such a law won't keep me from going to Collins, Columbia, Ranch Acres, Parkhills, etc.  A GC won't be able to carry the same variety of wine and beer that a dedicated store does.  I'll go to a liquor store before going through a rat maze at Reasors if all I need is some wine or good beer.

I think the way this needs to be done is as a state-wide vote and allow counties to opt in or out, just like liquor by the drink, so that pockets of fundies don't keep the rest of us from enjoying the convenience.

If you get a petition started I would be willing to help out in whatever limited means I have at my disposal.

I'm going to talk to CF and see what needs to be done to get a legal petition put together and get it circulating.

We should also be able to have wine shipped to residences in Oklahoma from out of state.

Conan, I highly doubt you can count on the big grocers to carry craft beers. Sure, they may carry Marshalls and Coop and Choc because of the local affiliation, but I'd be shocked if they carried other craft beers. This was actually brought up on BeerAdvocate. Some believe the craft beer industry in Oklahoma would be hurt by this. I don't completely buy that argument since the craft beer industry in Oklahoma is still in its infancy and the market has matured very well in other markets that have looser alcohol restrictions than Oklahoma. But I do buy the argument that with the limited shelf space of a major grocer, they're going to carry the products that sell in bulk.

I think if you want to allow continued competition between grocers and liquor stores, enforce the same rule on grocers that you can't sell high point beer above room temperature, but allow liquor stores to refrigerate their beer.

Conan, I highly doubt you can count on the big grocers to carry craft beers. Sure, they may carry Marshalls and Coop and Choc because of the local affiliation, but I'd be shocked if they carried other craft beers. 

I disagree with this. I've seen six-packs of Blue Moon, Boulevard and other craft brews at my neighborhood QuikTrip. If QT sells these things, surely the big grocers will and then some.

I disagree with this. I've seen six-packs of Blue Moon, Boulevard and other craft brews at my neighborhood QuikTrip. If QT sells these things, surely the big grocers will and then some.

First and foremost as a retailer, I personally think this would have a devastating effect on the growing beer industry and the economy of Oklahoma.

I can speak from talking with brokers and others in the industry that new breweries are more willing to come to Oklahoma because of the lack of shelf presence of BMC.

There is a big chain reaction that will occur if this happens. Open the trade and the state loses a lot. We currently have 8 wholesale houses. They all essentially get shut down or absorbed into larger distributors like Ben E Keith, Glazers, Southern Wine & Spirits, etc. Therefore there is probably about 1,000 unemployed folks right there. Do you think order puller's will get absorbed into BEK? Doubt it.

If you think of the schematics, most liquor stores are directly withing a 1 - 3 block radius of a major chain grocer. Liquor only makes up 35-45% of total sales at most beer focused stores. Take away our beer and you take away half our staff, half of our budget for ordering, half of our business.

I would guess within 6mos to a year of changing the laws, we would lose up to about 300 beers. Forget special releases. Like our variety of Rogue? It would go down to the basic 4. You'd see about 80% BMC and maybe two or three shelves left for craft beers. This would be the time that Blue Moon would be officially considered a craft beer in OK.

People think that oh having this cold would be so great. Well think about what you lose. Would you sacrifice those special beers, those beers somewhat unique and hard to get. For instance Avery Mephistopholes. I'd doubt a major chain would ever carry that.

Anyone can use Grapevine Market and Central Market as an argument, but how long do you seriously think it would take a chain like Reasors or Food Pyramid to adjust to the demands of beer lovers after years of only dealing with 3.2. Oh and do not forget that BMC pay for their shelf placements. So forget that "oh if I ask the purchaser and they see a demand they'll stock it." Doesnt work that way.

Sorry for my rant but this is a topic that angers me. People only see the selfishness of wanting something quicker and easier and do not look at how it would drastically alter things for everyone else involved. If the only argument is for the sake of quality, then that is a different matter all together. This is not that argument.

Changing laws changes the whole system. Maybe it is a little out dated, but given our economy does it make sense to cause more unemployment. Does it make sense to take away from the little guy who's owned the local liquor store for 20 years and worked his/her whole life to make a mark to give it to a bigger company like Spec's, Trader Joes, HEB, etc out of convenience.

The only solutions to this is to leave it alone all together or allow ONLY liquor stores to refrigerate strong beer, leaving 3.2 in grocery/convenience stores. Give the grocers wine. They'd only invest in core brands like Franzia, Vella, Carlo Rossi, Yellow Tail and Gallo products. So liquor stores become specialty wine shops, fine. But taking away wine & beer, it would do more harm than good.

I'm open to hear opinions, but try seeing it thru the eyes of the people who have fought to bring you the bettering conditions of Oklahomas beer selection. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

I hope SJR62 and SB2205 pass, I would love for a Trader Joes to be in Tulsa and to buy cold high point beer in a grocery store.

Most GC's I've been to in other states that retailed beer and wine typically carry American small brewery beers like Shiner, Sam Adams, Rolling Rock, the AB "craft" brands, Blue Moon, Boulevard, and the popular foreign brands like Heineken, Corona, & Tecate in addition to "6 point" domestic brands like Miller, Coors, and Bud varieties.  Their wine selection is usually a couple of short aisles of lower end 750 ml and 1.5 L like Yellow Penguin (oops must be a hybrid of Yellow Tail and Little Penguin) or Carlo Rossi.

Personally, I don't really mind much keeping the hard liquor in the liquor store. I don't think there's any point (Missouri seems to do fine), but I don't care either. I do want cold strong beer and wine sold in grocery stores, convenience stores, and drug stores, however. I'd love to do away with 3.2 altogether.

100% agreement.  I really could care less for spirits being sold at the GC

I really could care less for spirits being sold at the GC

That and the liquor isles in every convenience store just feels trashy.

As far as Whole Foods coming into the state if we do get wine/high point beer sales he does not see that happening.  (Yes Whole Foods is in Brook Side but they purchased that store from Wild Oats).  He said the demographics in Oklahoma do not fit what Whole Foods is looking for in establishing a store whether they are allowed to sell wine/strong beer or not.

He would not mind selling wine in his stores but has no interest in high point beer.

If we got strong beer statewide, the distributors would stop carrying 3.2, so Mr. Reasor would have the choice of selling strong beer or no beer.

I'm not sure whether it's the distributors that choose not to sell it to cut down on the number of different packages they have to stock or whether the breweries refuse to sell it in states that allow strong beer outside of liquor stores. I got a good explanation of it from a beer distributor about 10 years ago, but I've forgotten the details since then.

This has basically turned into an all-alcohol legislation thread, thought I'd post this. The House Bill to legalize home brewing has passed the state house and proceeds to the Senate. I still think its funny that it only allows home brewing of low point beer.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20100303_12_0_OLHMIY864986

Despite a lawmaker who is worried that it could lead to legalizing marijuana, a measure that would allow Oklahomans to brew beer for their own use legally won easy passage Wednesday in the House of Representatives

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100304_16_A5_OKLAHO78932

This shows the mentality of some of our lawmakers

This has basically turned into an all-alcohol legislation thread, thought I'd post this. The House Bill to legalize home brewing has passed the state house and proceeds to the Senate. I still think its funny that it only allows home brewing of low point beer.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20100303_12_0_OLHMIY864986

Where are you getting that it only allows low point?  The only section that singles out low point is the sale, transportation and possession part of it. 

The bill was amended to only allow low point brewing. Go here: http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/WebBillStatus/main.html and look up HB2348

Whole foods is not that interested in OK because we are a fried food state and they are a health food company. 

Not related to Oklahoma, but an interesting read about Pennsylvania's liquor laws: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20100308_Troopers_raid_popular_bars_for_unlicensed_beers__Dozens_of_gallons_seized_after__citizen_complaint_.html

Also killed in a state Senate committee was a proposal to let voters decide whether to allow the sale of strong beer and wine in grocery stores

We should've been allowed to vote on it.

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=12139088 (http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=12139088)

Mr "Freedom" Randy Brogdon taking away peoples ability to choose.

Shocking.

Christianists strike again.  >:(

Looks like this is staring again..... ::)

http://newsok.com/legislators-likely-will-consider-giving-oklahoma-stores-strong-beer-wine/article/3526971# (http://newsok.com/legislators-likely-will-consider-giving-oklahoma-stores-strong-beer-wine/article/3526971#)

Richard believes the state economy will suffer if grocery stores can sell wine and strong beer because most state grocery stores are owned by corporations based out-of-state.

“Then the money leaves the state, and you get a minimum-wage employee who is now your service agent. That's your expert,” Richard said.

What a lying sack.  The 4 tier system in Oklahoma is the worst I've ever seen. 

I just got back from Texas and Arizona where their grocery stores have wine and good beer.  It was great to be able to shop like that.

Oklahoma's system is a racket.

It's time to root out the old mob-style system the liquor lobby keeps in place.

Richard is a dishonest scrotum.  Two of the larger grocery chains are local: Reasor's and Crest in the OKC metro.  There's quite a few smaller grocers in places like Bartlesville, Enid, Lawton, etc.  I do realize Wal-Mart and Super Target are out of state owners along with Food Pyramid, but his argument is pretty weak.  We've discussed this before, aside from 6 pt. Boulevard and other recognizable brands as well as low-end wine, I don't see this putting a huge dent in liquor store business.  The kinds of beer I like wouldn't do enough volume to justify the shelf space in a grocery store.

It's time to root out the old mob-style system the liquor lobby keeps in place.

It's time to root out the old mob-style system the liquor lobby keeps in place.

harumph harumph

I was just pointing this out to a friend on FB, the likes of Fred Parkhill, and the liquor distibutors will do their best to see that it doesn't go through. They don't want the competition. (I would love to see it open up and the likes of BevMo and Total Wine and Spirits move into Oklahoma.)

http://www.bevmo.com/ (http://www.bevmo.com/)

http://www.totalwine.com/ (http://www.totalwine.com/)

I was just pointing this out to a friend on FB, the likes of Fred Parkhill, and the liquor distibutors will do their best to see that it doesn't go through. They don't want the competition. (I would love to see it open up and the likes of BevMo and Total Wine and Spirits move into Oklahoma.)

http://www.bevmo.com/ (http://www.bevmo.com/)

http://www.totalwine.com/ (http://www.totalwine.com/)

I'd like to see it happen but I would also want the ability for these retailers to refrigerate the beer on site.  That's one of the things that holds up one of my favorites from coming to Oklahoma...Fat Tire.

I like Fred, always have.  My understanding is not only does he have the liquor retail outlet, he's (or his son) is also a wholesaler.  Certainly liquor stores don't want to lose revenue, but I really don't see the consequences as being so dire.  I might grab a cheap merlot at the grocery store out of convenience, but it will never become my primary point of purchase for high point beer and wine.

I don't see my consumer behavior as being much different than the norm.  I suspect most others would agree.

I like Fred, always have.  My understanding is not only does he have the liquor retail outlet, he's (or his son) is also a wholesaler.  Certainly liquor stores don't want to lose revenue, but I really don't see the consequences as being so dire.  I might grab a cheap merlot at the grocery store out of convenience, but it will never become my primary point of purchase for high point beer and wine.

I don't see my consumer behavior as being much different than the norm.  I suspect most others would agree.

I always figured Lance would get into the family business. He and I played hockey together in the 70's.

The one thing I wish they would get rid of here in AZ, and the only place you usually see it is at WalGreens, is the sale of the little airplane bottles of liquor.

I'm not so sure the liquor retailers want the ability to refrigerate beer as it would be an added expense.  I too would like them to have refrigerated sections for beer as it would keep better.

For now, High Gravity has an excellent kit for homebrewing a Fat Tire clone. Brewing using malt extract is easy.

I'd like to see it happen but I would also want the ability for these retailers to refrigerate the beer on site.  That's one of the things that holds up one of my favorites from coming to Oklahoma...Fat Tire.

I think I might have to throw a flag on that one. There are places here that sell Fat Tire unrefrigerated. I will double check and see.

I've not found one yet here in Tulsa.  And every liquor store I talk to the clerks tell me the same.  They won't distribute unless it's sold refrigerated.  Maybe that's BS, but that's what I've been told on more than one occasion and by different people.

I think New Belgian Brewery uses the refrigeration issue as an excuse but that's their story and they are sticking to it.  (No inside info, just guessing.)  I've seen Fat Tire at the HEB stores in Texas in both the refrigerated and non-refrigerated sections.  Maybe the key is the promise to refrigerate it but they don't check up on it.

I keep trying to talk someone into bringing Carib lager into Oklahoma.  It's a great lower latitude beer brewed in Trinidad along the lines of Corona only much better.  (I can drink Carib and piss Corona) I know it's brought into the country, but no one can tell the me reason it's not coming to Oklahoma unless it's simply that wholesalers don't get enough/any inquiries about it. 

I think New Belgian Brewery uses the refrigeration issue as an excuse but that's their story and they are sticking to it.  (No inside info, just guessing.)  I've seen Fat Tire at the HEB stores in Texas in both the refrigerated and non-refrigerated sections.  Maybe the key is the promise to refrigerate it but they don't check up on it.

I think New Belgian Brewery uses the refrigeration issue as an excuse but that's their story and they are sticking to it.  (No inside info, just guessing.)  I've seen Fat Tire at the HEB stores in Texas in both the refrigerated and non-refrigerated sections.  Maybe the key is the promise to refrigerate it but they don't check up on it.

The number one reason some beers never come to Oklahoma is lack of pasteurization, if a beer isn't pasteurized it needs to be constantly refrigerated which we don't allow.

Coors, or at least their advertising, states that their beer is shipped cold, yet you will see it out on the floor in store displays at room temperature.

Speaking of home brewing, where's a good place to buy glass 5 gal carbouys in Tulsa without having to pay a home-brewer mark-up?

If you want to brew a 5 gal batch, get a 6 gal carboy (sp? it didn't like carbouy).  For as many as I buy, I support my local sheriff homebrew store.

I'm willing to bet that they want the option for it to be refrigerated in stores, but the only way to do that is to sell 3.2 and they refuse to make a special version just for that purpose.

If you're out of beer on a Sunday, Boulevard is still better than Millercoorsbud Light.  Most wheat beers aren't very high alcohol anyway.  I just checked Marshall's at 4.7% by vol.  3.2% by weight is about 4% by vol.  Maybe that's why Boulevard makes their wheat but not other varieties available in 3.2 for OK and maybe a couple other states. It's not a whole lot different.

But the point for me is I'm not a huge Wheat fan.  I like their Bully Porter better.  And German Pilsners.  But, I see what you're saying.

Coors, or at least their advertising, states that their beer is shipped cold, yet you will see it out on the floor in store displays at room temperature.

Speaking of home brewing, where's a good place to buy glass 5 gal carbouys in Tulsa without having to pay a home-brewer mark-up?

Surely some of the water cooler places still use glass..

Coors isn't supposed to be stored warm at any point in its life cycle. Too bad the salesmen, who are generally the ones to set up displays and monitor such things, aren't listening. Now that I think about it, why do I care? It's Coors. I only drink that at work...

I also don't see the liquor stores losing this battle so put me in the refrigeration camp. Also, I would like to see legislation passed that would allow the Oklahoma breweries to sell their own product, similar to the legislation that was passed within the past couple of years for wineries.

The compromise here is to allow high point beer and wine in grocery stores but to make up that loss to the local liquor stores with allowing them to refrigerate and sell high profit mixer and barware items and then also to change the franchising law so that we would have normal mass market beer brands in liquor stores like Budweiser and Coors. The only businesses that would be hurt by all these changes would be big liquor distributors and they aren’t very friendly to small local businesses anyway.

Just my $.02, until OK liquor laws are changed and or some one files an antitrust suit against the existing distributors, I don't think much will change. Doesn't the current liquor dist take care of both bars and Liquor stores? It may not be a "monopoly" but it sure smells like one and has for as long as I can remember.

yeah, and I think it's just two companies for the whole state, or at least it used to be. Jarboe and Central. There may be another now, but these are not "mom and pop" stores and they will fight any changes to our laws.

Just my $.02, until OK liquor laws are changed and or some one files an antitrust suit against the existing distributors, I don't think much will change. Doesn't the current liquor dist take care of both bars and Liquor stores? It may not be a "monopoly" but it sure smells like one and has for as long as I can remember.

The big liquor distributors have lobbyists, and the mass-market beers actually like the 3.2 arrangement in Oklahoma because they see it as more volume sales.  Would take a miracle to change this.

Now if there was something to light the fuses of constituents likely to support this...

I'd love to see the 3.2 law go to the wayside entirely.  FAIK, there are only five states which have a 3.2 law: Ok, Co, Ks. Mn, and Ut.  Interesting that four of the states are the home state of and neighboring states of Coors.  Seems like the breweries would get behind such laws if there was any concerted effort to get all five states to dump 3.2 at once.

I have always wished that someone would start a petition to get this on the ballot.  Maybe the forum could band together to make it happen someday.

Wiki list of each state

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state)

There's another but they get together periodically to set prices.  That should be illegal as well.

Kinda nice to know we're not the most restrictive.  Looks like Kansas gets that, but I don't understand why, some years back, I went to a Wichita v Tulsa hockey game in Wichita and they were able to serve Fat Tire beer at the arena.  Maybe I'm not reading the law correctly.

At least you can buy 3.2 24 hours a day here if you need some sort of alcohol fix and the cupboards are empty.

Kinda nice to know we're not the most restrictive.  Looks like Kansas gets that, but I don't understand why, some years back, I went to a Wichita v Tulsa hockey game in Wichita and they were able to serve Fat Tire beer at the arena.  Maybe I'm not reading the law correctly.

Also, we don't allow happy hours or discounts on drinks in bars, they do.

Kansas is not nearly as restrictive as we are. They have full point mass market beers in liquor stores, liquor stores have refrigeration and can sell items other than liquor and are open more hours. Also, we don't allow happy hours or discounts on drinks in bars, they do.

I've not tried to buy beer after 2AM in quite some time but I think that is cut off too.

I hear this and read this, yet I've seen quite a few (wink) non-happy hours and (wink) non-drink discounts.

It is called collusion, and it is illegal.  I belieeve under the sherman act.

Anyway, oklahomas alcohol laws are annoying at best, bad for consumers in reality, and probably bad for business (marshalls brew pub anyone?).  They are cemented in place for existing business interfests and no other reason.  Selling alcohol on Sunday, wine at grocery stores, or a winery shipping wine have no honest effect on alcohol abuse... but they do shuffle money around.

For matter, 3 tier distribution is just a jobs program that passes costs to the consumer.

I don't disagree with cannon_fodder as a matter of consumer policy and know almost nothing about how liquor prices are regulated in Oklahoma.  The problem is that liquor price fixing under state regulations, if properly designed and implemented, is exempt from the Sherman Act under the "State Action Doctrine."  The State Action Doctrine is one of those unsung aspects of federalism that, in spite of the protestations of the current Republican Party, and over the objections of the historic Republican Party, remain in place.  The federal government does not regulate state governments in the area of competition law. 

However, a Supreme Court case finding a California pricing arrangement to be a violation of the Act is California Liquor Dealers v. MidCal Aluminum, 445 U.S. 97 (1980).  In this case the Court held that a pricing scheme that allows private parties to set prices by agreement did not have sufficient direct state involvement to bring the scheme within the Act, even though it was clear that official state policy supported the arrangement.  The problem was a lack of active state government supervision or approval of the result.

Under this holding, which appears to be good law 30 years later, prices set simply by a meeting between two Oklahoma liquor distributors and not supervised or submitted to the ABC for approval would probably be illegal.  If the ABC has final approval of the prices, it is probably legal.  As I said earlier, I've had no involvement with the ABC or liquor wholesalers, so I can only speculate about the facts.

It took almost 30 years to get liquor by the drink on a ballot, let alone pass, and it's been alomst 30 years since it passed, maybe, just maybe, you might get it on a ballot.

Maybe if it were county option... but then again, I dont hear much outrage from Tulsa or OKC on the statewide plan this weekend for police to raid bars and arrest anyone they decide is public drunk (a charge that requires only an officer's desire to make an arrest), or the old vice squad (street crimes) tactic of undercovers swamping bartenders with drink orders then slipping in an older-looking minor with a marked bill.

Alabama Criminal Codes state transporting more than five gallons of alcohol is a felony offense punishable by no less than one year but no more than five years in prison.
Drivers are allowed to possess three quarts of liquor or three quarts of wine along with one case of brewed or malt beverages

I know every municipality is stepping up like every year, but I would like to read more about what you are bringing up in this post.

“Not only you the driver,” Tulsa police Officer, Craig Murray said. “We'll go after the social host that gave you too many drinks and allowed you to leave…the server, the bartenders,” he added. "We’re going to pull bar tabs; we're going to pull receipts."

I'm not an attorney, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night, but I have a real problem with the police walking into a bar that they have not been called to by anyone, and the police asking for the bar tabs just seem way out of bounds. So I'm sitting there by myself my friends that came with me have left, I've only had four drinks in three hours, but I'm picking up the tab for the group and it comes out to $175.00. They are going to attempt to arrest me for that??? Even though I'm waiting for a cab??? I don't think so.

Yeah, the servers are NOT happy about this one up at work.  Personally, I think that seizing financial records from a business would violate one of those amendment thingies.  I don't think I would just had em over no matter how much the cop huffed and puffed.  I mentioned this at work and someone responded that they would close down the bar then stand at the doors and wait for the a warrant. 

what gets me is I had a buddy of mine get arrested for Public Drunk when we were hanging out in another friends garage.  That is a really bad law that allows Police way too much leeway in enforment.

Interesting but how do you explain Missouri?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_Missouri

It's been a while since I lived in MO, but 3.2 beer is typically sold by convenience grocery stores so they can sell it 7 days a week.  High point beer, liquor and wine sales are not allowed on Sunday.  Of course, there used to be a concept called "Package Liquor" - which was typically a drive through window at a restaurant that sold liquor on Sundays (at a premium price).  Then again, about the time I turned 21 Missouri stopped allowing bars to give you a "roadie" cup with your drink in it when you headed out the bar door.

As for Okla., I am not optimistic for any near time changes because the entrenched wholesalers/retailers and the temperance/MADD types are a formidable political alliance against modernizing our liquor laws.

Liquor stores in Missouri are open Sundays. I'm not sure they even sell 3.2 beer in Missouri, or why they would do so. Every article I find on the internet says 3.2 beer is rare there because of their permissive laws.

Off-premises liquor sales are allowed Mon–Sat 6:00am–1:30am and Sundays 9:00am–12:00am. Missouri also doesn't allow areas to vote themselves dry. You can get beer or liquor at grocery, convenience and liquor stores. Wikipedia says Missouri has among the most permissive laws for alcohol, perhaps behind only Nevada and Louisiana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state

As for Okla., I am not optimistic for any near time changes because the entrenched wholesalers/retailers and the temperance/MADD types are a formidable political alliance against modernizing our liquor laws.

As for Okla., I am not optimistic for any near time changes because the entrenched wholesalers/retailers and the temperance/MADD types are a formidable political alliance against modernizing our liquor laws.

Lemme guess:

You guys were getting a bit loud or fired off a spud gun or golf ball launcher, someone called the cops about the noise, when they showed up your buddy smarted off and got arrested.  How's my aim? 

Cops generally don't show up out of the blue and start arresting people drinking in their garage with friends.

Guess it's time we just outlaw drinkin just so everyone knows that they are breakin the law.

Tried that already.  Didn't work.   :)

I think it was the music, though we weren't being as rowdy that night as we generally were, I mean come on, we hadn't even sat a car on fire that night.  My buddy didn't smart off as much as made some poor choices in words (he was pretty drunk).  I did let him sit in jail for the night, didn't even bother to see about bail.  Figured he could use a time out.  Point of the matter though is he hadn't actually done anything legally wrong other than not agreeing with the cop and apparantly being a public drunk (despite being in a private home).  Why don't they just pass a law that straight out says that being intoxicated is illegal.  At least then there wouldn't be an argument over it. But then again, it's at the cops discretion on if a person is intoxicated, which means they can charge you if you have had less than a single 3.2 beer.  Guess it's time we just outlaw drinkin just so everyone knows that they are breakin the law.

It seems that there are those who don't remember that little point.

And then there's the discretionary charge of "resisting arrest".  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that charge only exists to explain additional bruising on the person arrested.

And then there's the discretionary charge of "resisting arrest".  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that charge only exists to explain additional bruising on the person arrested.

How many of the 70% of Oklahoma voters that voted against Sharia Law will vote for more modern Alcohol Control laws?

Running for cover, changing my name etc......

How many of the 70% of Oklahoma voters that voted against Sharia Law will vote for more modern Alcohol Control laws?

Running for cover, changing my name etc......

Well, the lottery and casino gambling both passed by a 2 to 1 margin and there were no uber-religious protests when the tattoo ban was ended.

How many counties have passed liquor by the drink in the past ten years?  At least a dozen or so.  I think Oklahomans are friendly towards change depending on how the issue is sold.  How many Oklahomans go to Texas or Missouri to buy strong beer?  How much longer are lawmakers going to give Oklahomans a reason to cross the state border to spend their money?  That's lost tax dollars and lost economic dollars.

As others have stated there are only two or three distributors in OK for wine and spirits, and those control the entire state for that market wether it's bars, restaraunts, or liquor stores. And a lot of their fear is the fact that if the law is changed they would have to compete with the buying power of of grocery stores and their ability to negotiate prices with the distillery or brewer for purchasing product for their stores,

HJR1015 was passed by the Rules Committee today in a 10-2 vote.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- A bill that would allow grocery and convenience stores to sell strong beer and wine is being put on hold while a task force studies the issue.

A bill by Republican state Sen. Clark Jolley would create a 13-member task force that would help draft a proposal to be presented to the Legislature next year.

The sale of strong beer and wine in grocery and convenience stores is supported by chambers of commerce and consumer groups who say Oklahoma's alcohol laws are antiquated. Opponents include alcohol retailers and distributors who say their business models depend on existing state alcohol laws.

Current law allows only low-point beer to be sold in grocery and convenience stores. Only liquor stores are allowed retail sales of strong beer or wine and the products cannot be refrigerated.

Opponents include alcohol retailers and distributors who say their business models depend on existing state alcohol laws.

The time for Oklahoma's liquor laws has past.

Only if we can close those damsels' purses.

Damsels in distress depended on dragons and knights in shining armor.

There were real businesses whose business model vaporized too.

The time for Oklahoma's liquor laws has past.

Slow down there Red, I read hints of Shadows in that post!

To me it would just be so nice to be able to drink a "Real" Budweiser and Coors again.
But I know that is asking a whole lot of Oklahoma.

I'm not so interested in a "Real Budweiser" or "Real Coors" since I drink craft beers but a little competition might bring the price down a bit.  I would really rather see refrigerated strong beer than beer in grocery stores if I had a choice and could only chose one change.

I'd like to see the Jarbo's and Centrals take a flying leap. 

Open our borders and allow us to order wine/beer/alcohol if it's not available in the state.  Allow our wine/beer makers to ship out of our state. 

Don't make a brewer sell to a distributorship so the distributorship can mark the cost up and sell it back to the brewery to sell to its customers.

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=14165213 (http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=14165213)

So, can someone that knows state politics better than I shed some light here? Is this a good or a bad thing? Was this bill sent off to die or was it sent off to be reworked as a real sensible bill with a real chance for passage that would be created outside of the lobbyists, political infighting and posturing in the state legislature?

I guess I don't see why government is protecting small business from competition anymore...the same with the 6% markup rule..gimme a break!

HB1354, which would tone down the happy hour rules, has passed committee "with amendments", but I those amendments have not been posted yet.