The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I am just curious but it seems I remember there being talk of a Ruth's Chris Steak House being put in at 61st and Yale.  Has anyone heard if this deal is dead or just slowly progressing?

I could certainly see it being put on hold due to the current economy but I would still enjoy seeing added to our selection of restaurants in Tulsa.

It's definitely going to be built, although I'm unsure of the location.  The Rogers, AR location was built contingent on the franchisee opening locations in Tulsa and Little Rock.  Ruth's Chris requires franchisees to open 3 locations at a time (relative).  The Rogers location was likely opened first due to the relative ease of market leadership (there aren't many steakhouses in Rogers/Bentonville that can rival Ruth's Chris, at least according to the target demographic).  Little Rock and Tulsa require a little bit more market research.  The economy might certainly be delaying the project-- Ruth's Chris does well when discretionary spending is high.

Looks like the Ruth's Chris commercials have started. I've seen two commercials randomly on tv already. You know what that means  ;D

It's not going in at 61st and Yale though.

I called corporate and they were unable to locate any information about a coming location for Tulsa.

I've got a message in with franchising.  I've got that kind of nosiness.  I'll post if I hear anything.

I thought the last rumor was across from BOK in the new development there.

That's what I heard as well.

I wouldn't doubt that RC heard there were already way too many existing restaurants downtown and there are still a bunch to come.

And yet there's no development down there...hmmm.

Scattered development with a lot of future vacancies and banksters chasing down the guarantors of bad loans.

what a ray of sunshine

Let's play a forum game. Let's make a list of restaurants and retailers that have gone out of business in the 71st Street corridor in the last 10 years. Then we'll make a short list of the downtown restaurants and retailers that have gone out.


I'll get us started.

Chili's
Tony Roma's (and whatever came in after it)
Jazmo's
Grandy's (and whatever came in after it)
Lonestar Steakhouse
Elephant Bar
Ruby Tuesday
I can't even remember the names of several of them. I'll count on our well informed army to fill in the gaps.

Most of those are large national chains that didn't make it in your version of downtown....71st Street.

Meanwhile, in downtown, we've consistently turned empty buildings into revenue generating, Tulsan employing companies. My rough guess is that in the last 10 years in downtown we've added restaurants and retailers that do 30+ million dollars in sales and employ somewhere north of 1200 Tulsans. By the end of this year, Elliot and I alone will have 500 plus employees. Our companies in and around downtown will combine for nearly 20 million in sales.

Though we keep adding restaurants, sales in our current establishments continue to increase. Read that again. We're not cannibalizing ourselves. More and more people are coming downtown. Downtown's not a joke. It's not going anywhere, and the companies choosing to do business there are loving it. Downtown Tulsa is the fastest growing neighborhood in our city. We've added hundreds of new residential dwellings in the last few years alone with hundreds more planned and in development.

I can't help but wonder when these types of comments will finally wear out. How many success stories do we need to see in downtown before we believe that it's not a passing fancy?

Nobody said Downtown's a joke, but government subsidization of real estate development is not capitalism.

Sales in the 71st street area are gargantuan...twenty times what downtown contributes to the tax base and all achieved through private enterprise.

I am glad you and Elliots investors have so many employees.

You da man...just leave my tax contributions for higher priorities...

I am favorably impressed (no sarcasm, I mean it).  I would not have guessed anywhere near that high.

Councilor, there will be plenty of churning in downtown restaurants. There is not the constant traffic necessary for sales to justify rents with all that is currently planned.

No way could I be confident like you knowing there will soon be 4 or 5 rib joints in the area....

They are not all full time....and the quality of pay is meh.

A good opportunity for students etc than cannot work full time regular hours.  Pay?  Tips can be good.  When I was fresh out of TU with my Master in Engineering degree, my sister was slinging drinks in a cowboy bar in OKC.  She did work a few more hours (between semesters at OU) than I generally did but she was making as much or more $ than I was.  She used her savings to go to Europe for about 6 months.  

Edit:
A part time job can also provide a way for someone to be part of the downtown scene without spending their own money all the time.  I did the morning clean-up at my favorite bar for a while when I was in the Navy.  For an hour or so per week day, I got the money I spent back at the bar the next night.  I was not a big spender and draught beer was a lot less expensive then.

Good girl...not leaving student loans behind for you and me and the guy behind the tree....

I got my fingers crossed you are right - about the passing fancy thing.  We also go downtown as often as possible just to see what is happening next.  And eat.


Went to Bricktown (OKC) Tuesday evening and was a little surprised by how many empty buildings there were.  Kind of like Tulsa downtown.  But the OTHER thing about that was also similar to Tulsa - there are still plenty of good, viable businesses doing well, even when there are empty buildings around.  And both downtowns have lots of construction going on - public and private - which would hopefully make for better access, traffic flow, residential availability, etc.

Bottom line, I'm betting you are right about it NOT being a passing fancy.  


BOK center still looks like a crashed spaceship!!

OK, for comparison:
What tax subsidies are Downtown business owners getting that are not in play at 71st?

He's referring to the Vision2025 projects downtown (rehab of the existing CC, the BOK Center) that is drawing businesses downtown.  Forgetting the fact that the Blue Dome was still doing fairly well before the arena was built.

Don't be surprised if Ruth's Chris ends up in South Tulsa rather than downtown.  The 91st & Yale corner is highly attractive for national chains with the announcement of Whole Foods.  It's like flies to the dung.

Hasn't anyone watched Resturant impossible...come on! If those people can even own a resturant and lose money for years, than someone who is even half as smart can make a million..no billion..no zilllllion...dollars...mwwahahahahaha

I have some great resturant ideas I just am not stupid when I look at the metrics that go into percentages of restaurants that FAIL consistently no matter WHERE they are located...

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Oh! I see. Indirect tax benefits!

Kind of like an 8 lane 71st St and and an 8 lane highway 169 paid for by tax payers?

Yes, those downtown business owners sure are beholden to the tax payers.

Those people on 71st Street didn't build that.

With Prhyme Steakhouse already preparing to open downtown, it would not surprise me if RC opened somewhere out south (definitely not at 61st and Yale between Mahagony and McGill's).  From what I've heard, Place One was recruiting RC, but the longer it drags on without an announcement the less likley it seems RC will be a tenant.

In the what's new department - TTC keeps beating a dead horse.  While all public subsidies effect private development, I would argue that Tulsa's quality of life was much more improved by the BOK Center, OneOk Field and the Convention Center remodel than the building of 169, the Creek Turnpike and numerous road widening projects in south Tulsa.  Some prefer the strip mall, big box store, chain culture of the 71st St. corridor.  More power to them.  I prefer what's happening downtown.  But you can't deny both areas are the beneficiaries of certain public investments that have helped spur private development.  So you can't criticize downtown development as subsidy driven while praising the glories of the 71st St. corridor as some paragon to free market economics.

Dtowner: You can't put false wording in my mouth....I will just spew it back on you. Again, I am not down on downtown. I just think people need to be more careful as opposed to greedy. I fear for Elote because their newest concept has vaulted them into the possibility of losing money. I fear for Juniper because Justin has steaked another claim in the Brady. I worry too many restaurants chasing too few dollars might erode all the good choices as they may eventually be forced to close. What was the name of the Mayo Hotel eatery that everyone was ga ga over when it opened? Open your eyes people. I am addressing this thread....not the entirety of downtown. Of course, my suggestions go ignored on Downtown like adding more residences for retirees and older folks.

And here's another point: The east end is a puzzle of properties that in their collective acreage could offer up a needed user in the area with outparcels and mixed use flexibility. This would mean cooperative investors getting everyone to agree to street closings, utility relocation, grading, etc. in order to prepare the site for a ready and willing user. The Home Depot site lent itself to becoming a developable tract through cohesive planning. Seems to me the land owners in the east end are reactive rather than proactive. What's happening with the Bill White land?

Also, the Stan Lybarger comments in TW this morning were right on. Who the f is fighting the assessment district?

Hmmm.... let's see...Highways lead to street widening....street widening adds to growth...school districts benefit....better schools lead to more demand...more demand increases traffic....traffic adds to sales... a self perpetuating economy.

Now, what's missing in downtown?

Trula's downfall was a drop in quality.  It was not a lack of available business.

Let's look into this.  Does anyone else agree with Teatownclown's posts about downtown getting too much to do?

Too much to dew? what? They have no plan...it's helter skelter down there....except for KFF...they have the money and hence some control. Get it yet?

You'd prefer an immense planned development like a mall?

Did I say that? No. But you've given me more insight as to why downtown will never flourish....

You obviously need no insight.

Is Trula's still open or not?  We went there for Mother's Day but have not been back since.  No issue with the food at that time, just other places more convenient to home, that and the fact 90% or more of our meals are cooked at home.

I was more impressed with Trula's food in May than I was when they opened.

DTowny....it's more likely RC will be at 106th and Memorial....that's the new bulls eye.

It's open but no longer called Trula's.

Edit, I take that back.  The website still lists Trula's.  I was under the impression it was changed with the new management company.

That would be a shame.

106th and Memorial has an unwelcoming juju.

So do you just choose to ignore the fact that you have one of the two most prominent downtown restaurant owners saying that business is going like gangbusters?

That his business has increased as more places have opened?

You say that you worry about Juniper.  Have you tried to eat there on a weekend night?  Reservations are required unless you want to eat at 10:30.

Will the new additions to downtown, such as Guthrie Green and then all of the new residences coming on line not just further the demand for more and varied establishments?

I understand the need for owners and investors to not over-extend, but honestly you come off more like a rabid complainer than someone who is really interested the successful development of our city.

you come across as a novice....

You come across as a jackass. 

Parry thrust

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all you got in your hut is name calling?

My only comment at TNF on Guthrie Green is two words: home run. Look it up....

Not much of a reason to try hard when you're not throwing out any proof to your prophesies of doom.

You say a thing without saying why you say it and then challenge others to prove you right.

Why should anyone really try to converse with you?

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Ask questions. Don't be a simpleton name caller. I laid out a progressive suggestion for the east end and you say this carp. I have seen the cycles before. There is no doubt there are too many bars and eateries chasing too few dollars....with still more to come. Would you have ignored Paul Revere...or Jim Inhofe?

Go feed the baby...

Contribute.  Make an effort to add to the forum.

Fight against your natural urges to act the way you do.  Try to improve.  Make yourself likable.

Whatever. As long as goof balls like this contribute nothing but pom poms, downtown wallows.

I have made many many progressive suggestions and innovative ideas only to be bashed for my market analysis. You go with Kevin Costner...I'll go with the Urban Land Institute.

Downtown is rolling around in a relaxed ungainly manor?

Congrats on your many many's. 

Anyone able to post agreeing with Teatownclown?  If someone can post something supportive that sells his point of view, I'd appreciate it.

Dividing and conquering is not the way to go about discussing ideas.

So, nobody likes Stan Lybargers suggestion in this mornings World? And none of you think the East End needs a ready development plan. Schools in downtown? Assisted living?

You go Towney.... :o

Gosh, thanks Rip.

Doing our part to keep it viable by making our first venture to The Vault.

You claim facts but put words in my mouth.  I was not responding to your predictions of doom for new restaurants downtown, I was responding to this statement:

Nobody said Downtown's a joke, but government subsidization of real estate development is not capitalism.

As to your other point, I think it is a valid concern as to whether all of these new restaurants/bars will make it.  A lot of capacity is coming on line in a short amount of time and I worry when a successful owner gets stretched thin with multiple projects.  But I will defer to Blake Ewing and others like him who are experienced business owners as to whether there is sufficient demand to support the supply.

I want an example of something the clown has actually "developed", other than munchies....

Have the Vault for lunch the week it opened, the sliders were AMAZING!  :)  I'm sure they have plenty of good dinner choices, but those were A++ (loved it with the pretzel bread!)

Hah! I didn't read your post until this morning.  That's what I had.  Very good choice.

Did you get to sit outside or was it already too cool?  I really liked the place! 

We chose downstairs since we were convinced the front would be there at any time.  Turns out it was still nice when we left.  IMO, there's not a bad view from anywhere in the place.  We went upstairs and checked it out before we left (and ran into The Artist).  I'll post a review under restaurants in a few.

Making the streets wider did not promote the growth it was the other way around. The growth drove the need for the city to widen the streets. Very few of the interections in this town are self sustaining. In other words: The tax money spent to widen the streets and intersections is not recovered by the sales taxes collected from businesses that those streets and interections provide access to.

That is not a desirable model.

Yes, the east end needs a comprehensive plan, and hopefully it incorporates the Land Legacy East End Park. Personally I would love to see some sort of urban retail and a mix of housing units in the East End.

But not long ago you told us that Ruth's Chris wanted space in One Place downtown and "would match or exceed any lease offer the developer received."

I'd rather see schools and groceries....

Cood call. I thought Groceries were retail type services. I guess they must be wholesale or resale...my bad.

I'm the novice, but you don't address any of my questions.

I think I'll stick with my "complainer" assessment.  Seems pretty dead on.

Pee, I was not talking about the current situation. I was ringing a bell...just like Johnnie B. Goode.

Rabid complainer? Nah...more like the canary.

So, Ruth's Chris anyone?

Sure

Will be in the new Margaritaville Casino. Planned to open in December.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/ruth-s-chris-steak-house-bound-for-river-spirit-casino/article_65302a00-dbe9-504f-a22c-494dda2ea664.html

I highly doubt there is any overlap in the outlet mall demographic and the high dollar steak house demographic. 

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There used to be a high dollar (albeit, not nationally branded) steakhouse in the old River Spirit casino.  I don’t know how well it did, but the few times I was in River Spirit the all-you-can-eat buffet seemed much more popular and much more in line with the cliental.  Perhaps the Margaritaville branding and hotel will change the demographic to couples who want to drop a couple hundred bucks on a steak dinner.

The McGill’s in the Hard Rock Tulsa is actually just a licensed name and is fully owned and operated by the Cherokee Nation.  I wonder if a similar set up with Ruth’s Chris is being done here.

Somewhere Clay Bird and Dewey Bartlet (sic) are having apoplectic fits over this.

And it’s all someone else’s fault Tulsa didn’t get it.

Maybe if these two clowns “got it” Tulsa would be getting its fair share.

I don't know who is going to own/run Ruth's Chris, I would assume that whomever that is will still have to meet the same standards as any Ruth's Chris franchisee.

I do know that old steakhouse "Elements" was just plain terrible. We ate there once and were the only people in the whole place and still had crappy service and food.  I like McGill's in the Hard Rock.

The ownership could be important as to whether sales at Ruth’s Chris are subject to state and local sales/liquor taxes. 

Nope.

Spoke with someone who exclusively practices Indian Law for a couple of major tribes in NE Oklahoma (though the person had no knowledge of this particular transaction, wasn't giving an opinion specifically on this project, and certainly wasn't speaking for the Tribe). Their position was that the economic activity takes place exclusively on Tribal land as part of an economic activity of the Tribe - it should therefore be exempt from State and local taxes (unlike cigarette sales and gambling winnings, which by their nature leave tribal land and have compacts governing taxation). But, the person went on to say that that position freaks out many national chains and so they often pay taxes anyway out of fear of the unknown repercussion from the tax man and possibly fear over bad PR if accused of not paying their taxes.

I happened to be speaking with the person and brought this topic up just out of curiosity. The hybrid nature of "dependent sovereign nations" is complicated...

This is a steak related question, so what better place.....

Was driving 3,000 miles over the last week or so and ran across something out of state that seemed strange.  Small country grocery with advertising sign in front;

No. 2 ribeye   $3.79 lb.


Intriguing concept....I was curious, so had to ask.   Was told that No 2 was referring to grass fed beef as opposed to grain fed.  And the price was unbelievable, but that was the actual charge.  They also had the 5 lb hamburger plastic wraps for about $7.50.  (As compared to the Walmart in town at about $11.)

Visually, this was some of the best looking ribeye I have ever seen.  Bought some as a test and fed to group of about 30 people.  Grilled some to each of the 3 stages - rare, medium, and well done.  All had very good flavor.  Very chewy - a couple of the people called it 'tough' (they ate well done).  Was good enough that I went back the next day and bought about 40 lbs. more.  At that price, and with the good taste, I wouldn't care what kind of meat it was!  Two days later I drove by the store again and the price had been raised to $4.19 lb.  Got to get a bigger freezer!

I have never heard of "No 2" referring to US beef (Wagyu is different system).  As for grass fed, I think that is all we had growing up, so it just seemed like 'normal' to me.  Chewy (tough) steak is why all the old people had those little hammer type meat tenderizers....

Anyone ever hear of 'no. 2' ??

Here’s a guide to beef grading, might answer your question and as to why it was cheaper and chewier.  Was it very well marbled or not?

https://www.sdstate.edu/ars/students/activities/judging/evaluation/beef-grading.cfm

Thanks!  That's what I have been looking for!  Just not rigorously enough, I guess.

Modest marbling - # 5 on their chart.


Really good steak, though.  Gonna have to look around here for some when I run out.