The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I heard Chase bank in 1st Place Tower is moving out of Kanbar property (the same on cimarex is leaving) .  I have not been able to find out where it is moving too.  The bank has the lobby and 3 floors (I think).  I can't imagine chase leaving downtown.  So.... anyone?

Midfirst left their downtown location. Maybe Chase will move with Cimarex?

Cimarex claims to have leased all the office space. Wonder why Chase is moving.

Has anyone heard anything else on this?  JPMC spent a pretty penny in leasehold in 2006/7 on their private bank floor which is the old lobby of the First National Bank.  They remodeled their commercial bank floor about two years ago.  Interesting if their moving all those offices but who said the big banks do anything smart?

It'll be sad for them to move out of First Place Tower.  It's their local heritage being the descendants of First National Bank.

Chase is going into Midfirst's former location.

Suppose i should have followed up my own thread... i have been watching the renovations and a sign has been up for weeka...  anyone know if they are taking significant space in the kennedy building as well?

Tenants appear to be fleeing Kanbar.  Rumor has it pithian building is for sale.

Pythian

Oh, and thanks for dropping by the museum and saying hi today.  Sorry I was so busy and focused on getting ready for the tour group that was due to arrive shortly, that I wasn't able to be polite and chat lol.

I've been wondering about the Pythian building. The office supply place and the hair salon next door moved out recently.

The most recent TW article I could find talked about it being auctioned with bids due this past July. Any updates?

Premier Popcorn is moving into the spot formerly occupied by a hair salon in the Pythian Building (5th, east of Boulder). They currently have a store on Harvard.

I never thought I'd read a popcorn shop was expanding.

But... it's PREMIER popcorn.

Popcorn shop is now open.

11-3 Monday-Friday. Less than half the numbers of hours per week of their other store. I hope they're at least receptive to maybe being open a more reasonable amount of hours.

So not even open when people are leaving work? Odd choice.

Popcorn shop is now closed.

And that popcorn shop is the perfect example of what's wrong with some downtown business owners. They opened three months ago, four hours a day, five days a week. Around Christmas time they closed for a good couple weeks or more (not just the week between Christmas and New Year's).

At some point midway through their three months of being in business they decided to only be open four days a week, four hours per day.

They barely gave it a chance, with poor hours. They didn't try weekends during the time the pop-up shops were open. They didn't even open for the Holiday Parade, when thousands were in the area.

But I'm sure they probably think that downtown didn't support the business when it was the business that didn't give a legitimate effort to succeed.

That and they were selling popcorn as their primary revenue source.

Did some work with the first sub shop in Tulsa (it was downtown) and he was only opened those same hours.  Did very well for quite a few years.  

Popcorn possibly not so much, but couple of things seem so strange about that.  First, the 4 day week was just stupid, and then the holiday shutdown..?  Even if the rest of the year just makes a living, the holidays would be where I would expect to "make" the year.  Thanksgiving and Christmas.  Very odd.  And how can all the different popcorn I have seen in shops in other places NOT do better than a cupcake shop??  That makes no sense.  Does not sound like there was a real commitment to the proposition.


Yeah, I know...mostly a rehash of TheTed...

  I would guess that selling just popcorn would be tough even in the best of circumstances.  Downtown is still a hard market for retail, even in the best locations, and I would say a popcorn store would be closer to retail per its potential customer base than restaurant.  As for only 4 days per week with limited hours.  Currently the DECOPOLIS is only open Wednesdays, Friday and Saturdays.  We will add Thursdays again in the spring once pedestrian traffic starts picking up with nicer weather.   Closed Sundays cause there ain't nooooobody out and about downtown except the church goers who pop in then pop out, a few perhaps taking the time to eat a bite.  Monday's and Tuesday's, being open those days for a month, two months, three, six, a year, etc. won't change the fact that on Monday's and Tuesday's nobody comes in and you look up and down the streets and the number of people you see walking around is less than a third of what you see on Wednesdays and Fridays (and there still aren't big crowds on those good days in our downtown lol).  

You could say that, "Well, if you were open more people would start coming downtown more to shop."  well, that's pretty much what we are doing with Wed,Fri, and Sat lol.  We are taking a little step and hopefully helping things out.  Those days are still slow for us, especially during this time of year and we know we are in the early phase of bringing back retail downtown.  As for hours, we are open 11am-7pm and often later than that.  We have a much wider range of products than did the popcorn shop, so I can only imagine how much more limited their potential sales would have been (along with all our other products, we have a range of retro themed/packaged cookies, chocolate and candy, coffee and teas, and hope to broaden our food assortment as time goes by but can't imagine selling enough of just that sort of thing to make a whole lot).

I am not counting on making a living at this shop and can make enough on my days off from it to cover expenses, expand the product line,  continually make the store more enjoyable and memorable with added props, fun displays, etc. and can also use it as a studio to meet with potential clients and work on projects while I am there.  Unless you have a similar financial situation and can do more than one thing, aka the shop, I don't see how any retail could make it downtown at this time.  

The best things for retail to begin to take hold in downtown would be...

  Adding more population, businesses and tourist attractions.
  Keeping, and adding to, the pedestrian friendly fabric.
  Building up more retail options in "core" areas.
  Adding more event type things in those core areas to attract people to those areas definitely helps (the Holiday Parade, Christmas Pop-Up shop event, Mayfest, etc.)
   Downtown transit to get people to and from different areas of downtown.

Unless you are a big box store (like the Home Depot), retail will not likely get people driving into downtown to shop, at least not enough to make a business viable.  Unless of course there begins to be a concentration of shopping in an area "one of those cores I mentioned" which would then make it "worthwhile" to do so.  Instead people will go downtown for business, a wedding, to an event, to eat, a museum, etc. and then as they are walking to and from other places or are out walking to explore downtown or enjoy the walk,,, and they pass by your store, then they stop in.

 Just last night for instance some people came in who had just eaten next door at the Vault and said they lived downtown and as they were walking by decided to stop in.  Also had some out of town visitors that were staying at the Atlas Life Courtyard Marriott and were walking by and decided to come in.  Then of course we get people in our shop who work downtown and are out for a walk during lunch.  We did great at the shop during the Christmas pop-up events.  People walking by my shop is where I get my customers and I bet it was the same for the popcorn shop as well.  Its the rare bird that would drive into downtown, just to get some popcorn or get something from my shop.  Creating a concentration of activities and things in a pedestrian friendly area will be the only way to get retail (other than a big box and that can actually harm an area if not done right) going downtown.  This isn't suburbia where people driving by will matter.  It's people driving into downtown, flying into downtown, already living in downtown, etc. and then WALKING BY that matter.  

Again, some business models just make me want to slap their mama....these people need to watch shark tank and also think outside their "neat" business idea that has low margins and high overhead...(in regards to popcorn)

The bank I go to has FREE popcorn.

Arteest has it right. We need more people living downtown...services and shops will follow to serve them.

Of all the things we've spent money on in downtown I would argue that housing makes the biggest impact. If only we could get Sager's chunk back so we could allocate that to someone else.

I went to an upscale popcorn place in Baton Rouge this weekend. Lots of really boutique flavors (like Hot Boiled Crawfish) and getting a "mini" size bag was $4. The place had plenty of traffic and it looked like greater than 75% of the people who walked in made a purchase. Due to margins I say they have a better business than the cupcake shops but in the case of the one in downtown Tulsa it's a matter of I have no idea where they are and I didn't know they were open yet.

Were they supposed to notify you personally?

Touche'

Was the shop in an area that had "plenty of traffic"?  Or was it an isolated draw unto itself?  

 How did you run across this place?  Did you go there to see it specifically, or were you already in the area and then came across it?  

Lot of good points made by others, but its seems the real problem was likely the product they sold.  Practically every office in every building downtown has a microwave and a box of microwave popcorn.  If I get an itch for popcorn in the afternoon, I pop some in the microwave in 60 seconds and I don't have to leave my office or pay $4.  I'm sure theirs was better, but that's still a tough sell.  And, as Red Arrow noted, the bank across the street from this shop gives popcorn away for free.

You can't compare their popcorn with free bank popcorn or microwave popcorn. Sandwich shops exist despite the fact that you can get sandwiches in vending machines.
See Garrett Popcorn in Chicago (http://www.garrettpopcorn.com/flavors/)
Or closer to home, The Corn Popper on Garnett (http://www.cornpopper.com/prprcelstpopper1.htm)

Someone with actual experience running a business feel free to correct me. But I don't see how it would be that much of a risk to have a low-wage worker try out some better hours. At the prices charged, you wouldn't have to sell much popcorn to recoup that person's wages (assuming rent/utilities are sunk capital since you're already in business).

I just see that business as operating the same way downtown businesses have operated for the past couple decades, being open as few hours as possible. Downtown is changing, but so many business owners' mindsets are not. More risks need to be taken, specifically by those who own businesses other than bars and sit-down restaurants.

More people downtown is a big need, be they residents or event visitors.

But how many Tulsa businesses even adjust their hours for events? There were hundreds if not thousands of people within a block of the Coney Island during the Holiday Parade. They were not open.

The bank I use is not downtown but I suspected it was not the only bank to offer free popcorn.

You get what you pay for in low wage workers....

It becomes a matter of perceived value.  Do I really want to spend $4(?) on a bag of popcorn that I know would be better than my bank's free popcorn or is the free popcorn good enough for now?

I certainly wouldn't wish anyone wanting to sell popcorn bad luck.  I am more likely to want a good fresh sandwich for lunch vs.a vending machine sandwich than to crave gourmet popcorn vs. some alternatives.   Fresh popped microwave popcorn is better than the bagged stuff I see in WalMart.  (I guess, I never buy the pre-popped stuff at WalMart.)  "My" bank has one of the old-timey popcorn machines like BJ Wexler has on the OETA Saturday night movie.  

I get what your saying, but it's not a "risk" to be open certain days and hours, it's fact.  Sure they might have done well had they been open during that one evening during the parade. But, being open on Sundays and Mondays is not a risk, it's a fact that your not going to get any customers lol.

Tell ya what.  Anyone who wants to sit at my shop on a Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday, can have all the profits from anything thats sold in the shop (except for my paintings, then you can have a percentage lol). I will pay the rent those days, the electric, gas, telephone, insurance, etc. bills, buy the merchandise (you can even suggest merchandise for me to buy and sell if you think its my choice of products) and you take the entire mark-up over the wholesale price.   But you know what, your going to sit there day after day making less than half of minimum wage, if you make a dime.  

Any takers? PM me, I would love to have the shop open those days.

Any ideas why Monday AND Tuesday are so dead compared to Wednesday thru Friday?  I believe you, just curious why those two days would always be dead.

Walking by even works in suburbia shopping malls.  There are always small shops that I wonder how they survive but they frequently seem to hang on for years.

In the case of a popcorn shop, I'd guess your only other risk would be unsold product if your business model is freshly popped popcorn. I'm not much of a popcorn eater myself so the concept is entirely lost on me, much like cup cake stores.

I don't pretend to know which days/times are best. But I get frustrated at businesses that open downtown and are in business only 15-20 hours a week.

Nobody's opening a business in other parts of town for 15 hours a week, giving it a few months, then calling it quits. At some point for downtown to be a legitimate neighborhood, things downtown are going to have to be open the same hours as things in other parts of town. And these are usually the same kind of places that close for three days before and after every holiday, whenever their dog catches a cold, and when the weather's slightly above or below average.

Even of the businesses that have been downtown for a couple years or more, when's the last time anybody extended hours? So much of downtown, apart from bars and sit-down restaurants

If I only put 15 hours a week into my job I don't think I would be very successful.


I'm on the extended hours bandwagon. At least open a couple of hours for dinner.

To me the steakfinger house has the perfect food for the later night industry crowd (of which there are many in downtown these days) but they are missing this opportunity.

Chicken V. egg.

Do you bulk up retail in the absence of adequate numbers of people living downtown to attract people to move downtown or do you build adequate housing to get more people to live in downtown then bulk up retail options?

Bring the permanent residents and retail will chase them.

My only guess is that business travelers, tourists, meetings, weddings/events, etc. tend not to be in downtown on Monday and Tuesdays.  Also could be that workers downtown actually work harder on those two days and then later in the week take a longer lunch break lol?  I don't know, just guesses. Also people are more likely to go out on Friday and Saturday evenings just to have fun or to eat.    I keep track of the number of people that come into our shop, and we have kept track of the number of people that go in to the museum space as well.  Even during December when we were open pretty much every day, Monday and Tuesday, and Thursdays, were D E A D.   And I am occasionally still open on Monday and Tuesdays, and its not just about people not knowing if I am going to be there, the number of cars parked on the streets and in the parking garage where I park is reduced, sometimes I can park on the 3rd floor and not the 6th on those days.  And the number of people walking around during the entire day is way, way less than on Friday and Saturday.  Wednesdays I suppose some of the uptick that makes it worthwhile to be open is because of the $2 specials in the Deco District and that that is promoted, and yes perhaps some of it is because people know more stuff will be open.  But with as little as there is downtown it would take us all working together to perhaps make Thursdays as busy.  And, one wonders if we were to all gang together and be open on Thursdays and promote that,,, would we get more business over all or would we just split the number of people that would tend to go downtown among more days?  Even during the good days, not talking about event days and such, retail is a "hard sell" down there.  Getting Thursdays to be worthwhile is going to take some work on everyones part ( and we will start doing that soon) and getting more living, etc. downtown will help with that.  It's a tough process right now.  Chicken and egg thing indeed.

A lot of business travel is on Monday....leave out from wherever early, fly into where you are going, then spend what's left of the day (after noon or so) working.  Usually Monday evening or Tuesday evening before I get to to do any looking around beyond the Tuesday lunch time.

The Girl Scouts had a table selling cookies on Saturday afternoon at Fifth and Boulder.

Maybe that's the way to bring more life to downtown. More girl scout cookie sellers and fewer actual businesses.

With the massive amount of people downtown over the weekend to spectate fishing, were any businesses open on the arena/convention center side of downtown? I didn't see anything open that wasn't normally open.

I saw an interview with some downtown restauranteurs who said the fishing tournament got them lots of business.

I saw the same story. But I still wonder how many did anything at all differently as far as extending hours. In the past, I've seen restaurants close at the same time they normally do despite events and crowds.

From the Facebook page of Premier Popcorn...

Woodland Hills Mall here we come!!!

Just a little over two years ago the concept of Premier Popcorn was born while making a batch of my mom's caramel corn. I decided to do a little experiment of my own and add a hint of Chipotle for some kick. After several attempts I finally got it right, and I knew I found something special! From this stove top recipe Premier Popcorn evolved into what you know today. We're now proud to offer over 41 flavors to Tulsa popcorn lovers. The next step for Premier will land us in Woodland Hills mall! I am proud to announce this 1600sq ft space begins it's transformation this weekend and is scheduled to open it's doors on March 25th! We will also remain in our Harvard location to continue to serve our loyal midtown customers. It's been a great two years Tulsa! Thank you for your support!

Here's a link:

http://premier-popcorn.com/index.html

That solves the hours of operation issues - in a mall their hours of operation are dictated to them by the landlord.