The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I had spoken to the management company for Ranch Acres Mall about trashed dumped behind the old Homelands... I found some mail in one of the bags... yes I do this sort of thing, and she told me today that the building will start construction in a few days by WalMart for a food only center.

She also said the whole mall will receive updating.

First we get Natural Groceries, then Sprouts, now WalMart...  Food options galore for this neighborhood.

What is a "food only" center?  Does that mean only groceries, but no toilet paper?  Or does that mean prepared meals?  Or what? 

The Homeland is a pretty large store with a humongous parking lot and ridiculously deep setback.  You could actually tear down the Homeland and really open up some options to connect the front and back sides of Ranch Acres and create a more cohesive shopping mall (a la Utica Square).  Build new retail space in line with those along Harvard, create landscaped courtyards and pleasant areas for restaurants and shops...Add a green buffer between Harvard and the existing front side of the strip mall. Turn it into more of a "square"--or at least a "U."  Both the front and back sides of Ranch Acres have deep overhangs that provide a nice amount of shade for pedestrians / window shopping.  Landscaping could go a long way towards improving the site.  A developer with some imagination who wanted to play up the mid-century motif could really work some magic.  It could be cool. There's so much space and so much potential. 

But certainly no need for additional grocery stores in that area.  (Reasors at 41st and Yale, Reasors at 51st and Harvard, Sprouts at 41st and Harvard, Natural Groceries at 31st and Harvard, Akins at 31st and Harvard, Reasors at 21st and Yale, Walmart Neighborhood Market at 21st and Yale...)

Means it's like the Wal Marts at 31st/Garnett, 44th/Peoria, 21st/Yale (Neighborhood Markets..they sell typically what most grocery stores sell and no more).  Since my mother has been in respite care for the last 10 days or so, I've taken a liking to the Wal Mart at 81st and Sheridan since it's out by where she's out.  Clean and easy to deal with the people there.

During its heyday, with the Med-X occupying the corner spot on the front strip and when Safeway/Homeland was still a decent store, the parking lot stayed pretty full during business hours.  They will need every bit of that parking if WalMart Market goes in.

I agree though, we really aren’t in need of another grocery store in the area and your idea to re-purpose Ranch Acres would be pretty nice.

I'm not sure Akins & Natural Grocers count.   unless you consume mostly vitamins and supplements.
41st & Yale Reasors needs some competition
Sprouts opens in about 2 weeks..   here's hoping it's a viable option.

Natural grocers actually has quite a good size produce department, meat selection and bulk goods.  Small market is a good definition for Natural Grocers. Last time I was in Akins, they have a reasonable selection of grocery items as well but seem somewhat more supplement-oriented than NG.

I have no problem with this, in fact I like it. BTW in many cities Wal-Mart does not market a food only store. Columbus, Ohio has no Wal-Mart Food  Market centers they  only have the regular Wal-Mart Super Centers that sell everything. Omaha, NE also has no Wal-Mart Food Only Centers. ???

Personally I wish Tulsa would get Kroger stores and Hy-Vee stores, dunno why they don't market in Oklahoma. Texas has Kroger stores. The mid-west states of Ohio, Indiana & Michigan have Meijer Stores they have real good in store bakeries. Meijers is a bit like a Wal-Mart Supercenter they also are open 24/7 and closed only on Christmas..  http://www.meijer.com

According to this, WMM is tearing down the Homeland and going with new construction on the site.

I lived in Texas and Krogers was really expensive compared to their competitors without any real distinction in quality.  It was the same with Albertsons.  Tom Thumb was the better grocery store for everyday grocery shopping.  Central Market is the king of the hill though.  You pay more but its well worth it if you have the budget for it.  I don't have any experience with the other chains you mention.  I wouldn't think that there wouldn't be much room for them in this market because Reasors does really well and is not overpriced.  Between them and the Walmarts and smaller stores in town I think this market is pretty well covered.  I would love to see Central Market come into Tulsa though.  Ir seriously blows Whole Foods, Sprouts, etc., out of the water.  It's that good.

Not familiar with Central Market, United Grocers has a Market Street concept in Wichita Falls which is outstanding, great liquor, wine, and beer selection as well as hot prepared foods ready to eat on site or take home.  Sounds like a similar concept.

WM is my store of last resort.  Fortunately, having no traffic light leading out of the parking lot gives me an additional reason to never stop and shop there.

When I lived in Houston in the early 90s, Kroger was just getting started there.  I was not really a huge fan, but the alternatives were Randall's (think the Houston area's Reasor's as a local grocer) and Wal-Mart was just starting to roll out their grocery stores at the time.  We typically went to Randall's, but in time Kroger started to be a little more competitive.

However, this was around 1992 and 1993, so much has changed, I'm sure.  Randall's was the first place I could use a debit card to pay for groceries without an extra fee since they had an agreement with FIB (First Interstate Bank).

What does this have to do with the new WM?

I'm just pulling your chain ...

I'm hoping you see I'm replying to DD.

The Whirled says they are demolishing up to the point it attaches to the rest of the strip mall, and rebuilding ground-up.

I wonder what it would have been like if they had chosen the old Sipes grocery store down the street at 26th (instead of making it a Dollar General)?

That's a key crossing for MC and I when we are riding our bikes to points west and there's already far too much distracted driving and red light runners without a Wal-Marts there.  Don't do that, patric, gives me nightmares worse than you having a crematorium within a block or two of your house!  ;D

Here's the BOA application for the Walmart from July. 

http://www.cityoftulsa-boa.org/Documents/Agendas/07-09-2013/BOA-21587.pdf (http://www.cityoftulsa-boa.org/Documents/Agendas/07-09-2013/BOA-21587.pdf)

Basically looks like they're tearing it down and rebuilding in the same footprint.  Hard to tell b/c these are only rudimentary drawings necessary to obtain BOA approval; they don't really show many specifics.

They got a parking variance to reduce parking by 65 spaces, but it doesn't appear that they are bringing the store any closer to the street. From the drawings, it looks like they're going to eliminate a row of parking closest to 32nd Street (along the landscaping border) and the 10 or so along the front of the store (the "granny spaces").  This eliminates about 50 spaces. Then, it looks like the addition of a couple trees and a couple "bump outs" will eliminate the rest... leaving the building waaaaay back yonder where the trucks can access the loading dock from Jamestown Ave.

As an aside, ever since Homeland closed, we have seen a lot of people jaywalking across Harvard to buy groceries at Walgreens.  I didn't realize how many people were without transportation in that area who were relying on Homeland for their groceries.  They will be very happy to have an affordable store on the east side of Harvard.

I think there’s one or more apartment complexes just east of Jamestown, aren’t there?

Then I think you would like Wegmans supermarkets, a large regional chain from my neck of the woods in upstate NY with stores also located in the mid-Atlantic.  I've shopped extensively at Krogers and Meijers when I lived in KY before moving here.  Believe me, neither can come close to Wegmans in anything that they do similarly.  I would drive past 5 or more of both of these stores to get to a Wegmans.   

Wegmans is considered upscale by industry analysts and is the top rated large supermarket chain as per Consumer Reports.  Noted for high quality customer service and for providing a unique shopping experience in impeccably clean stores, their prices are also reasonable and very competitive in the markets they serve.  They kick a$$ in most if not all of the key grocery store industry metrics.  Comparatively, Reasors prices are higher on average than Wegmans (Reasors stores are about half the size in sq footage).  In terms of offerings,  Wegmans is to Reasors as Reasors is to a Warehouse Mkt.  Wegmans is an innovator in the prepared (basic and specialty) food concepts and many of their stores have world market cafes.  It is mind blowing what you can take out for dinner or eat in the café.  The quality, freshness, and consistency of their produce and meats cannot be matched.  Their in-store bakeries and delis are also the best.  International foods, they carry from almost any and everywhere.  Fresh Market, Whole Foods, and other specialty/ healthy food outlets have negligible if any impact on them.  They also have an outstanding high quality store brand of a much larger array of products than most competitors carry (you can see examples of some of these in the background on some episodes of "The Office"). 

There is nothing here to compare Wegmans to, but I know without a doubt Tulsans would absolutely love this store. www.wegmans.com (http://www.wegmans.com)

The web site isn't terribly descriptive, but based on what you had to say about the place, sounds like my wife and I would feel right at home there.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7apYk4erhiY‎
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7apYk4erhiY‎)
Here is a link to the much anticipated grand opening of a new replacement Wegmans store in Rochester last spring.  It took over 15 years of planning, zoning battles, and design changes to finally happen (for those of you who think it is difficult to get things done in Tulsa, just try doing said in Rochester and see how tough it can really get!)

It shows some views inside the store and you can also see one of their new restaurant concepts - Amore.  This store represents a more urban model at 87K sq. ft., and is probably the smallest one in the entire chain.  It is located in an area similar to Utica Square in demographics and density.  Most of the other Wegmans stores are 100K to 130K sq ft., and there are more than 20 of them alone scattered throughout the greater Rochester area.

BTW, wine and liquor is not sold in NY grocery stores, and that leaves more room for a great selection and stock of good beers in Wegmans.  They also stopped selling tobacco products in 2008.

I tried shopping at a WM Neighborhood Market back in '06 or '07 and really did not care for it, they were pushing too much Sam's Choice items, and the prices on the normal national brand items were in line with the local stores in Phoenix, Basha's (Arizona version of Reasor's) and the Kroger owned Fry's, Fred Meyer, Smith's, and Smitty's, and if you went to California Ralph's. Safeway and Von's were just too expensive, and if you really wanted upscale you went to AJ's Fine Foods (think Petty's).

The best small market was when Tesco brought Fresh & Easy. They had good prices but you had to check out your groceries and bag them, that's how they saved you money, and they had some good in house items including meals to go that you have to heat up, but were made fresh daily.

As for the Kroger owned stores, they are averaged priced, and have good selections, I just wish that I could get my dad out of the mind set of shopping at the lone WM, while the prices of some things are higher at Fred Meyer at least they do a better job of keeping things stocked on the shelves. I prefer Diet Coke, and shopping at WM when it is on sale for $1.00/2 liter, they only carry 40 bottles to a shelf, and if you get there in the afternoon, and there is three bottles on the shelf, if you ask the associate if they have more the answer is "Well the truck is supposed to be here sometime today, so come back and we might have more."

As a side note, I lived in Joplin back in '90 and the two stores that I shopped at were a Smitty's on Rangeline in north Joplin, then found Dillon's IGA (leveled by the tornado) closer to my apartment that had better prices. Dillon's is now owned by Kroger.

Aside from good quality, low prices, and service that we as consumers should expect, there are some other nuances to grocery shopping that I miss since moving to OKlahoma.  At the time I lived in upstate NY I thought going to the grocery store was just that, but realized later that it is really more of an "experience," one that is shaped in large measure by the retailer and community.

At Wegmans stores, the experience can be quite social and more vibrant.  You never know who you will run into (whether you want to see them or not) because people shop in droves there day and night.  You see in Rochester they garner better than 60% market share even though there is adequate competition.  They are just that much better than the closest competitor which is actually is not a bad chain itself.  If getting in and getting out is your thing, then you can do that too as they will check you out in a fraction of the time that Walmart or Kroger's does.  So you don't dread going because you don't need to spend too much time waiting if you are pressed, or if not, you can catch up on the latest with friends (while enjoying good food and a beverage of choice should you choose).

Food shopping has been one of the biggest negatives for me in Oklahoma.  Perhaps foretelling of what to expect should have been my observation of the many Walmart Neighborhood Markets in addition to the Walmart Superstores serving the area.  Other than price, they severely lack in anything else that matters to a consumer such as service, selection, product availability (poorly stocked stores), store cleanliness, and oh yes those maddening wobbly a$$ed shopping carts!  But to their credit it's better to have a WMNM than no store at all in the areas they service. 

I can get by with poorer customer service, but the limited offerings and fewer brands in our supermarkets pose more of an issue.  Unless one is aware of these gaps from shopping elsewhere, then it perhaps is not an issue as it has been said that you don't miss what you didn't have. 

It is worth mentioning that the success of non-traditional and/or specialty supermarkets in Tulsa such as Walmart and one end of the spectrum and Fresh Market, Whole Foods, Sprouts etc. on the other end is likely attributed to what traditional grocers such as Homeland, Albertsons, Food Pyramid and Reasors others did/do not provide to the market. 

As such, I will conclude that for a city of its size and appealing demographics, Tulsa is somewhat underserved in terms of full line modern supermarkets.  Hopefully, one of the closer regional chains that several posters have mentioned will come in and seize the opportunity.

Not in this neighborhood of 31st and Harvard; not now... but as you are new you may not know about our lack of any facility in North Tulsa worth mentioning.  That is a nightmare.

Sprouts opens at 7AM on Wednesday.  I've heard they already have land to expand into Broken Arrow.  There is a new store opening in Kansas City.  Tulsa is served by the Dallas distribution center as I suppose Kansas City is and they seem eager to expand their 170-such stores.  I expect Tulsa will get several more and at some point Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri will be served by a regional distribution center local to this market.

Wegmans, as nice as they are (I have been in some in Philly) will probably never relocate to middle America.  Heck, I would love to see Publix move here but realize that will never happen. The best possible choice is HEB and their Central Market division out of Texas.  Krogers has no appeal to me, Dillons neither.  Tom Thumb is like a fancy Albertsons. I don't see Price Chopper or Hyvee moving this far south either.  The new Whole Foods will create some changes in the local markets but nothing significant. For the price conscious Walmart will continue to rule. For the selection driven shopper Reasors still rules.  For upscale, Petty's still has that market. I like Fresh Market for their meat market and some variety in selections no one else carries.  I still miss shopping at Cala Foods on Market in San Francisco and at United Stupor in Welches, OR.

Yes I am aware of the lack of food options in North Tulsa.  It's a food desert just as you find in most if not all mid to large U.S. cities. 

Owasso officials were trying to let it slip recently by announcing that people looking for healthier food options would be excited about an upcoming announcement.  I deduced that it might be that Sprouts would be opening a store in town.  If so, that would be a much welcome addition.

Yes Joiei, hopefully one of the better closer regional chains such as the ones you cited might find this an attractive and underserved market.  BTW, I guess by local comparison Reasors would have the best selection, but I find them severely lacking.  They would be no match for an HEB Central Market or Publix in terms of selection.

And let's not even get started on the lack of a decent grocery store for the Westside. Warehouse Market is trying to up their game...produce looks better there than it has in years, but it's still Warehouse Market — where I can get my groceries and "pay my light bill".

You know, that whole area from Redfork, along 75S to I-44 to the turnpike gate and along SW Blvd has been under served for decades it seems. I think that WH Market has been at 51st & Union (I know it was in the strip mall just NW of it before they built the current one) since the 60's. IIRC wasn't there a Safeway then Homeland at W41st and Hwy 97 years ago?

41st and HWY 97 is Prattville — you can't really count it as part of the Westside. There was a Safeway in Crystal City until sometime in the 80s.

I worked at the original Warehouse Market at 48th & Union when I was 15. It was actually called Family Market at that time. When it was rebuilt after the tornado hit it, they renamed it Family Market. Went back to being called Warehouse Market when the current location was built, IIRC.

Damn, that brings back memories.  My dentist was in that shopping center for years.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to count it as part of the Westside, was just referencing. Knew the Crystal City one closed but did not remember when, thanks. I'm trying to remember if there was a grocery market in Town West out near the Turner when they built it. I know there was a Froug's there, but don't remember a market.

There was a grocery store in Town West several years ago. The name escapes me now, but it is coming on 16 years ago that my cousin who worked there was abducted and murdered. Dena Dean. She was 16. This year she will have been gone as long as she was alive. Sad sad sad. No arrests ever made in the case.

Ah! I just remembered, it was Marvin's. I never shopped there though.

But, I tell ya, back in my day... lol ...at the Family Market, we knew how to sack some groceries. We packed them properly, in paper sacks, never too heavy and then we carried them out for you.

Crap, I didn't realize Dena was your cousin.  Her family was well-known in the local racing community.

I don't remember that being "Marvins" for some reason. I thought it was an IGA or Bud's Thrif-T-Wise.

I'll tell ya, my 87 year old mom appreciates that kind of service and it really still does exist in a few places. I get to unload her car at home.

I remember that. I know of a similar case with a family friend.

As for bagging groceries, I worked at McCartney's and the taught us the same thing, and the way you knew you did it right was to tear the bag at the corners all the way down, and everything was supposed to stay in place. Also if "popped" a bag open and got caught, you were docked 15 or 30 minutes. They would send you home before your shift ended.

51st & Harvard Albertson’s alumni here. We didn’t get penalized for broken bags and we were trained pretty well.  The only time I recall struggling with bagging was when they would do a 2 liter bottle promotion with Pepsi or Coke at 50 cents a bottle or whatever price it was.  10 bottle limit and a PITA to try and bag efficiently.

I always liked Saturday or Sunday shifts as the “courtesy clerks”, as we were called, got to rotate off the registers to do detail cleaning and stocking chores for awhile which broke up the monotony of an eight hour shift.  That was the first job I had where I realized I enjoyed work with lots of public interaction.  I never realized that would eventually lead to a long career in sales.  Fun times.

Worked in an Albertson's in my hometown as a "courtesy clerk" in my high school days.  Still grumble at the way the kids at Reasor's bag my groceries and I know they grumble back when I request paper not plastic.

http://plasticbagbanreport.com/

Yep, I figured that the paper bags are easier to recycle.  Imagine my surprise when they weren't listed on any of the Tulsa MET centers on the website.  Luckily, the BA center took them for me :)  Is the "new center" advertised on the site going to take them (and cardboard)?

Brown bags do compost, there’s one more way to recycle.

The penalty wasn't for breaking a bag, it was for that quick downward arm motion that opened a paper bag with the "pop" sound as it snapped open. The reasoning for it at McCartney's was that a bagger did that and accidently hit a child in the face with the corner of the bag. No one sued (imagine that) but management did not want to pay any more medical bills.

Ah yes, the old bag pop.  Couldn’t think for the life of me what you were referring to.  Hard to resist doing that when you are slammed on Saturday afternoon or right before a big storm.

Did you provide double bagging upon request?

Absolutely.  Automatic if they had similar heavy items like a couple of jugs of milk, or canned goods.

Yes we did. What a pain in the butt on a Saturday from mid morning to late afternoon.

Back to what Angie brought up about the Westside being underserved, when I was growing up in the late 60's and early 70's, there were two distinctive Westside's. You had the Redfork/Crystal City area of Hwy 75, I-44, and SW Blvd starting at the 11th st bridge. Then you had the Westside bounded by Denver, the river, and Edison with Charles Page running through the middle of it. It seems there was better grocery shopping along Charles Page than there was in Redfork/CC area.

Grocery bagger and stocker jobs where I was from were virtually impossible to get without a very serious connection.  You would have needed something like what it would take to get an ABLE appointment for one of those jobs back in the day!  But that didn't stop you from being an enterprising lad.  A lot of kids hung around the local supermarket to help load groceries into cars, especially on Fridays and Saturdays.  My hustle as a 9/10 year old was to ask the older women if I could push their groceries home in their personal push totes (those old school little upright carts).  I couldn't and wouldn't ask for money, but usually got a dime for my services plus the opportunity to hear about somebody's trifling husband, cat, or the unsolicited and uncensored details of the malady of the moment.  Believe me when those carts were loaded down, they could be a nuisance to maneuver over blocks and blocks of sidewalk cracks!

Absolutely obsessed with Wegman's. I don't see them coming this far west, but I would simply be over the moon if they did.

Me too!

Drove past at lunch, they are already loading the old building into dump trucks.  Looks weird without the old Homeland building on site. 

The new Walmart food store is up, and they are already asking for a modification:

http://www.cityoftulsa-boa.org/Documents/Agendas/05-13-2014/BOA-21587-A.pdf

For the neighborhood, a pharmacy drive-thru is going to mean lots more lights than had been there before.
There's a right way to do it, and a wrong way (but you sure cant tell by the fuzzy plan on the BOA site).

TL;DR
traffic lights, or light up the site lighting?

related:  opens June 11th

If memory serves, where they are putting that drive through faces a strip center and is diagonal from some already well-lit apartments.

Yet another curb cut in that block is at least as objectionable, IMO. Excessive numbers of driveways cause unnecessary congestion.

From the drawings, I don't think they would need an additional curb cut.

I didn't see it marked on the drawings, but the text stated that a new curb cut on Harvard would be allowed for direct access to the pharmacy drive through.

They key would be to arrange the drive-thru lighting so that it doesn't trespass beyond the commercial property into those apartment windows (Title 42 Section 1303-c).

These days it costs no more to install recessed lighting in a canopy (as opposed to drop-down lenses that scatter light in all directions), and since the light is more contained, you can save money by requiring less to do the job.

Shielded lighting is required of all PUDs, and many builders have done a good job in the past few years, while others need an occasional nudge in the right direction.

WMM has the worst pharmacy service EVER.  Why do they even bother?

it's a tossup between walmart & walgreens

Eh, CVS refused to fill a prescription for my SO the other day because "if taken per the doctor's instructions, it would kill a child." Not really sure what a child's tolerance to medication has to do with filling a prescription for an adult, so at the moment, CVS is at the top of my pharmacy smile list.