The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

When the transistor  replaced the tube  hundreds of jobs were lost.   Then the printed circuit boards were developed  with the component  parts printed  and outsourced to foreign countries many more lost their jobs.  Outsourcing  of the TV’s cost more jobs.  The save that stamp and pay on line cost  bank tellers jobs along with the printers of return envelops as well as the printers of checks.  Now the postal department is in trouble with billions in losses and  layoffs.    The bottom line is that the internet has cost cities and states million of dollars in sales that are not taxed.   Government have converted to the sales tax revolution in supporting government functions.  The time has come where the free exchange of information is bringing many private and government entities to their knees.  So to replace this loss of taxes the ways are available to tax the users of the internet.   Would you be willing to tap this source in order to save our postal system?
How much do you consider your fare share of taxes for your use of the internet?   

The next Federal Bail-out Candidate is:

The U.S. Postal Service.

Losing $$billions each quarter.

Reason:  The Internet, e-Commerce, FAXES, and e-mail.

Automobiles etc replaced horses.  Petroleum products replaced whale oil. What do you consider your fair share of taxes to use an automobile or heat and light your home? 

Your sales taxes on internet and out of state purchases are to be reported on your Oklahoma Income tax. See the instructions for line 21 of form 511.

AMEN!  I already pay taxes for the use of the internet...  just look at my bill from Cox.  I also pay taxes on my purchases...  just look at the post quoted.  Plus, many out-of-state companies are starting to collect sales taxes for internet purchases.

I don't give two rips if the post office went out of business.  There are plenty of other companies willing to step up and take over delivery of snail mail.

If the post office would propose dropping the number of delivery days... even to just three days a week, or less, plus up the cost of a stamp, I could understand why.  I rarely use the postal service anyway.

The only things I get in the mail anymore are bills, junk, and the occasional holiday or birthday card.  I pay my bills online, using the information on my paper bills, I still haven't figured out how to make my utilities all paperless.  As many things as I can, I've requested no paper like my bank statements and Pikepass.  If anyone can give me a tip on doing that with COT, ONG, AEP, and Cox, I'd be grateful.  Less paper the better.

Is it true that the postage increases have effectively lead to first-class rates subsidizing third-class?  In other words, on a percentage basis, the rates for first increased more than the rates for third.  If true, it would seem one way to better fund the USPS would involve charging bulk mailers more realistic mailing rates.  It could have a two-pronged effect, first by raising more money, and second by reducing the the amount of junk mail.  Would one offset the other?

AEP automatically stopped mailing when I requested an e-Bill through Bank of America. Cox can be turned off through their online payment system. I haven't figured out COT or ONG yet, though I pay both online.

City of Tulsa, can't be done.  Which is sad really.  When I had Bank of America as my primary bank, I went paperless for all of those except COT.   Problem was, their ATMs weren't as prolific as BOK.  Of all the things I miss about BoA, their EBill is the biggest miss I have.  It was awesome.  You could get Ebill triggered electronic payments.  Pretty much set it and forget it.  BoK doesn't do that.  Sure, you can set it to recurring, but it's not the same.  I've thought about switching to Arvest because someone told me they do have Ebills, but just haven't done it yet.

I'm with IBC and need to figure out if there's a way to e-bill with them or not, as mentioned I can e-pay and do that wherever possible.  I maybe write four or five checks a month now.  Debit cards and on-line bill pay has to be cutting into check printer's pockets as well.

The point was the that those who were effected by the blooming electronics and loosing their job are now on the unemployed list that is increasing daily.  Those purchase made on line in the city are subject to the use tax in lieu of the sales taxes which is the same 3% charged on city purchases.  The city has dedicated the 3% tax to operations of the city including all department. Police, fire, swm and etc.  This use tax is due by the 15th of each month on purchases made on the internet or out of state distributors.  It is an obligation of the citizens of both city and state to submit this tax to the to the OTC.  Failure to submit the tax is reflected in the budgeting processes thus the loss of the taxes must be replaced as internet transactions increase.  (The fair annexing for the collection of the these taxes has created much discussion.)  The purchases of items on internet subject to such taxes are left up to the desecration of the purchaser as to whether or not to submit the use taxes due.  The provider of internet services has logged all the information needed to transfer these uncollected taxes to the phone bills.  The bottom line is these taxes should be collected to offset the payment of those unemployed because of the internet tax free purchases.

What do you think is a fair way to collect these due taxes, that are going unpaid, that the city needs to pay for public services? 

I guess you could say the 'postal revolution' will go the way of the farming revolution and the industrial revolution.  It's called progress.  Bye, Bye.

I'll be the dinosaur here about on-line bill paying.

Judging from the amount of anti-spy ware and security updates the IT department at work installs (it interferes with my work on the computer), I would say there is almost no security on a computer without a full time IT department.  As such, I refuse to put my bank account numbers on my home computer.  Those numbers can reside in files all over the place in Windows.  I know there are enough "temporary" files in Windows that it is impossible to hide internet usage from the IT department.  I believe iMac is better but I don't have enough knowledge about the operating system to be confident about it's security.  One clever hacker and your numbers belong to the world. I know that wherever I phone in my credit card number or send a check to a business that the first thing that happens is that it goes on a computer.  Those businesses owe it to their customers to provide computer security.  I know that not all do but nothing is totally without risk. I just feel the risk of having financial records on my computer at home is too much.

Automatic bill paying is even more intimidating.  
In the 90s, my dad accepted a trial subscription to the Wall Street Journal for 13 weeks with automatic billing to his Am Ex card. He decided not to continue after the trial 13 weeks and sent the appropriate written notice.  WSJ kept delivering and Am Ex kept billing.  Dad tried to get Am Ex to stop paying but they said they could not since he had authorized WSJ to auto-bill the card.  It took about a year to get delivery and billing stopped and he never got back any money after the initial 13 week subscription.  These are two supposedly reputable businesses.  

About as close as I get to allowing someone access to my cash is leaving change on the bar for my next drink.  I don't run a tab, it's too easy to get surprised. I'm sure not going to give some company direct access to my checking account.  Even an honest mistake could cause a real mess.  

I even had a problem with check image vs. returned check vs. electronic transfer.  A few years ago, I paid my AT&T wireless bill with a check.  They processed it and did the electronic transfer thing.  Then they sent my check to the bank (Bank of America).  The bank honored BOTH transactions.  I'm glad it was only for about $30.  Eventually it was properly credited but thank goodness it wasn't for a large purchase.  I kept my account with BOA since for a long time they still returned my paper checks. (Some of you may remember "your cancelled check is your receipt".) They did require a $10K deposit for the Advantage checking account.  The rates on the CD I kept there were always low.  Now they charge extra to get paper checks back in addition to low CD rates.  They acted really proud of the rate they offered which was about 1/2 of what I could get at the credit union.

Also a few years ago, I paid my Am Ex bill with a check. They did an electronic transfer (no check image).  I called and wrote requesting a check image.  They sent me on a phone tag chase and I never did get an image of my check.  At that time, you could refuse an electronic transfer but couldn't refuse a check image in place of your paper check.

I had a smaller CD at BOK which was originally a Money Market acct for a specific purpose.  When money market rates went down the toilet, I changed the account to a CD since I didn't need quick access. The last renewal rate about 2 months ago was 0.25%.  They notified me a week or two in advance that it would be renewing and that I could call during a 10 day period to get the rates and choose to renew or not.  Most other banks have sent me written notice of the new rate on the first day of the option period, reminding me in time to make the choice with the new rate in hand.  BOK didn't send the notice until the 10 days were over and I had to pay a penalty to close out the CD.  I was unhappy but they did meet the minimum legal requirements so I had no recourse.  I told them I didn't care for their business practices and took the money to another (commercial) bank and got about 1.75% on the same money.

I guess neither BOA or BOK want my business.  That's OK, I can go elsewhere.

Remove whatever obstacles we have to businesses that make it more profitable (and less expensive to me) to do business elsewhere.  Then I could buy locally and the issue becomes a lot less critical.  I am not a business person so I don't know what those obstacles are but they must be there or the businesses would be here.

I must admit that I object to the concept of buying something somewhere else and owing taxes on it here. Some states have gotten totally absurd in that concept in an attempt to get those "due taxes".  Maine has/had a policy of assessing use tax on aircraft purchased in another state which come to Maine only for a short visit. Can you imagine paying use tax on every state you travel through with your car or RV?  Too many hands reaching for my wallet.  Maybe we should declare ourselves to be the Contiguous Countries of North America.  Impose taxes, duties etc on everything that crosses a "state" line.  Even Europe has seen the folly of that.

Don’t forget the 11 trillion dollars in circulation of unredeemable green backs called the national debt is the same a phony paper that we claim as the worlds top economy.   China is having doubts about the value of their trillion dollars of it.  The greatest disaster that could hit us now is the printing presses were to wear out.  Progress some times come with a cost attached.

Redeemable?  Dollars haven't been redeemable since they changed from Silver Certificates to Federal Reserve Notes. 

I would say progress always comes with a cost attached.  Mostly it's an acceptable cost.

Beautiful and cogent.  Thanks Shadows.

Oh God, not more discussions on redeemable currency.  If you want redeemable currency, then do it.  Keep all your assets in tangibles (Gold, Silver, etc.) and pay all your bills by credit card.  When you want to pay off the credit card cash out some of your assets and immediately send off payment.  PRESTO - you are operating on a hard currency.   Of course, your currency is still subject to governmental manipulation and world events (see the entire history of hard currencies), but if it makes you feel better go for it.
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I pay nearly all my bills online and as many as possible automatically.  Mortgage, insurance (auto, house, life, health, boat), student loans, power, gas, cell phone, cable and internet, college fund, 401K/IRA, banking.  Everything is online.  I actually go to the bank or a broker to sign documents as required, put things in a despoit box, or deposit a check.

I purchase some goods onlines.  Pet food and meds (if you need live crickets for feeders, for gods sake buy them online!), gifts, books and DVDs, ammunition, and a few other random things.  But most of my shopping is done at brick and mortar stores.

When the government starts enforcing sales taxes against garage sales and cash transactions, they can come after my internet purchases.  Avoiding taxes is a long standing American tradition.  I understand the problem, but keep your hands off of my internet(s).

It really angers me that PSO charges $2.95 to pay your bill online. Ridiculous.

Your are making a great and outstand effort to increase unemployment as you turn from the manual to electronic paying  your bills Your contribution to the rising employment may go unnoticed until you  become a victim and join the increasing unemployed created by  the expanding robot  society.  Many who produce from the natural element of the planet may find difficultly in selling their wares to robots. 

A point of thought that some three thousand teachers will assemble shortly to pass on  their acquired knowledge whereas a $400 dollar computer has instant recall of all their combined knowledge and any  part can be printed out in seconds.  In the electronic robot world they have become as obsolete as the postal department.   They in the future will be only high-priced baby sitters.   The legal profession has the same ability to search by case the thousands of past decisions and print them in seconds now available on the internet.  All of this which contributed  to the dysfunctional tax structure must be replaced as further unemployment is encountered .   Offender is the internet so it should be taxed.   How much should we reclaim of this loss?

Theoretically, members displaced by improvements of technology should re-tool towards other industries or develop new services/products/technology. I seem to recall something about the steam locomotive engineer...

Liken unto the octopus having eight tentacles each with double rows of suction cups the commercial and industrial industries are converting to robot operations thus sucking up the manual jobs.   Training for another job, done by a robot, would exceed the imagination of the ability to find a job by the working poor.  And like the internet the robot nor its owner pay into the funds for city or state operations. The robot opertions of on line paying is a job related robot creating unemployment.

But each robot requires a technician to maintain and repair their function, thuse creating a new job/industry. Displaced workers tend to either persue further education, change industries, and develop new industry. Such has been the case for millennia, and you have yet to show how now is any different....

I had a friend who owned a machine shop.   He employed some 17 persons .   He purchased four CNC robot mills.  A piece required three hours of labor to produce manually on each existing mill.  The new robot mills produced the same part in 47 minutes.  It took only one person to setup all four mills.  The part was made for one of our leading longtime manufacturing corporations.  They notified him that they were taking bid for the part from an India company who had purchased robot mills and for him to bid against them.  He is out of business now.   
Lets prepare for the wolf that is coming up the walk.

Just wait for that robot wolf... then your friend is really screwed.

Shadows:

When an occupation is no longer productive it will die.  There aren't a lot of barrel makers anymore - those damn metal barrel making machines put them out of a job.  Same with elevator attendance and elevator buttons.   Mass produced shoes really put the screws to cobblers.  And glass factories have significantly hurt the bottle production of glass blowers.  The steam driven coal shovel put many-a-miner out of work.  The tractor reduced the number of farm-hand jobs and combines have eliminated the need for migrant labor for harvesting in many parts of the country.  Steam engines put the damper on sale makers and sailors.  Light bulbs really screwed up candle makers.  And email has killed the pony express.  Woe be increased productivity . . .

I guess we could ban light bulbs and sails to increase jobs.  Or we can accept the fact that careers will have to change and people will have to adapt.  Find a way to do it better or get out of the way.

Well, this settles it.
We all could use some Old Glory Insurance

http://www.hulu.com/watch/2340/saturday-night-live-old-glory

The economy in Tulsa as well as the country has made drastic changes in the last century.  It was a rural supported city. Then in the 20’s it began the urbanization by support of the oil discovered on the lands given to the native Indian forever in exchange for their farms on the East Coast.  But after the two land runs the farmers were displaced by the oil profiteers who were able to obtain the production rights from the drunken Indians and began seeing who could build the biggest buildings from the free oil incomes.  As one industry cease to exist another industry related to the oil began.  This did not create unemployment as the automobile flourished.  Ford, Buick, and the Tulsan (produced at Admiral place and Madison) etc The horse head pumping units were produced in the building now occupied by Story wrecker.  Derricks, monkey boards, pipe yard production flourished as well as all other oil related industries.  Hotels and houses of prostitution lined the streets supported by the oil increasing the jobs.

We cannot relate the progression from wooden barrels to metal barrels to plastic barrels to card board barrels as each today have their own places.  It is liken

“The tractor pulls the plow”,
“The truck totes its lusty loads”
“who needs an horse shoe now”

We have entered in the electronic age where we have created a monster with storage capacity far exceeding the human mind.  It is so equipped to perform the tasks once done by organisms with expert precisions that is not afforded its counter part. It does not tire and has the ability to perform the task of millions of workers.   We have taxed the organism who once performed these jobs and now is unemployed.  Why should we not tax the monster that has close many retail outlets, factories and industries causing this unemployment?         

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite_fallacy)