The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Sears at 21st & Yale.
Macy's at the Promenade Mall  
Eastland Toy's-R-Us (who knew that was even still open)
JCPenny's is closing 140 stores (https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2017/03/08/jcpenney-is-shuttering-140-locations-see-if-your-store-is-at/21876449/) (Promenade?...  Tulsa isn't among the 40 at greatest risk list)
Staples is closing 70 stores (http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/09/news/companies/staples-store-closings/index.html) (Harvard loc?)

March 14th:  Gordman's announces it's closing all stores (http://www.newson6.com/story/34799471/gordmans-declares-bankruptcy-closing-all-stores)

May 5:  Gander Mtn closes at "The Walk @ Tulsa Hills (http://www.fox23.com/news/gander-mountain-closes-tulsa-hills-store/519873796)

Now, more than ever, we need smart infill over new / sprawl.

Exactly why the REI deal at Helmerich Park is such a failure.  Why sell our parkland when there are plenty of better retail locations all over the city, with more to come as big box stores continue to close.

I'll have to assume that the Tulsa metro populous would be more likely to go to the REI big box located near the river over the old Sears location at 21st and Yale.

I'm certain the developer prefers a go-forward with a cheap land deal and infrastructure assist from the city.

This is the Tulsa way.  (Sean Connery accent)

Ironic, since everyone thinks REI is cool because they only think of the flagship stores... which happen to be repurposed old buildings.   Tulsa is getting a repurposed park.

It would be hard for me to open a big box retail store in a location that had failed at hosting a failed big box retailer.

I think we need new ideas for these locations.

The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.

OU-Tulsa could operate in the Promenade easily. Convert the Macy's to classrooms.

We need new ideas.
    

Hotel at 21st & Yale is a good idea.  I fear Promenade's days as an enclosed mall are numbered.  It could be converted back to an outdoor mall with potentially 1 or 2 anchors (Dillard's and maybe an H&M?) with the rest of the space a mix of offices and expansion for OU along Yale.  Ironic that it was once an outdoor shopping center.  Look at Belmar in Lakewood, CO where this was done successfully.  And they also have a big box power center across the street just like Southroads.

Another high traffic area for REI if they are planning to do their layup slab dreck model here would be the SW corner of 71st & Memorial since it’s getting a complete overhaul.

I don’t know if you’ve followed the thread before on this, but not only was Promenade an outdoor mall as “Southland” shopping center, Southroads across the street is an indoor mall converted to a power center format.  Quite an irony.

I believe REI could do well in Utica Square.  I find it interesting H & P has foregone the rent from Petty’s and Miss Jackson’s now for over a year while that ground sits empty.  I’m sure Mr. Helmerich has to be scratching his head over the decisions his kids have been making since he passed on.

So, has a replacement not been found for Miss Jackson’s or Petty’s or has there been an announcement and I’ve just missed it?

That will be an interesting development to follow.

Large pad with high traffic counts. New large grocery and new restaurants on out parcels.

It is everything you want a redevelopment to include. If it fails, retail will always fail on that corner.

+1.

Did I read earlier the tiny Expo Motel had some sort of protective arrangement?

EDIT:  apparently tied to the horseracing there.  A repost:


Ralph L. Jones Jr.'s management company will be paid a $215,000 settlement because Tulsa County officials will not allow the Tulsa developer to build a second hotel at the fairgrounds.

Records show that American Management Inc. had an option to lease 2.5 acres for a second hotel on a mutually agreeable site near Gate 12 on 21st Street. But fairgrounds officials and AMI could never agree on a specific location.

Jones owns and operates the Microtel that was built at the fairgrounds in 1999.

"Granted, it said in a mutually agreeable place, but mutually agreeable means you can't be unreasonable, and the fairgrounds said we don't want to build a hotel anywhere out here," said Tulsa County Public Facilities Authority member Bob Dick. "I believe in good faith. I think when we signed the original contract, that was probably what was envisioned. I think that contract had some value and I didn't want to test it in a court of law."

AMI president Chris Knapp informed Expo Square in March 2003 that the ideal site for a second hotel would be in front of the Exposition Center on a long, narrow strip of land encompassing most of the parking lot.

Dick said having a hotel built in front of the Exposition Center's facade wouldn't work for aesthetic reasons.

"I just didn't think it was in our best interest to give up 21/2 acres of prime parking right next to the Expo building," said Expo Square President Denny Tuttle.

The May 1997 agreement predated a master plan that was later developed for Expo Square that focuses on it being a family entertainment and events center with an emphasis on livestock facilities. Since then, Dick said, the whole landscape at the fairgrounds has changed.

"The highest, best use of land, I don't feel would have been another hotel. That's kind of our entry way," Dick said.

As a result of the settlement, AMI will be paid $215,000 and a second hotel will no longer be an option. AMI will pay $65,000 in past-due rent on the hotel that it withheld from the fairgrounds during the dispute.

The fairgrounds receives $42,200 annual rent for the hotel, plus a percentage of gross room revenues. The fairgrounds was projected to earn about $100,000 a year, but actual reve nues have ranged between $69,000 to about $98,000 a year, records show.

Jones' financial relationship with the fairgrounds is complex. Jones put up the money to construct the $2.1 million simulcasting facility at Fair Meadows and in return was allowed to build a $4 million, 103-room hotel on the fairgrounds.

His company holds food and beverage rights from the sports bar in the simulcast facility and retains the $2 admission revenues to pay the debt on the building.

AMI owns the simulcast building but leases the land from the Public Facilities Authority. Tom Hilborne, the authority's attorney, said the lease was transferred in January 1998 to Fair Meadows Racing and Sports Bar LLC, which was signed by Jones as manager. A limited liability company does not have to disclose its members.

Jones is listed as an officer of the not-for-profit Revival America Association. The group's Web site posts the same address as the simulcasting facility.

AMI also owns the hotel building and pays a lease to the fairgrounds for the land. AMI records list Knapp as president, Carl P. Hall as vice president and Audrey Williams as secretary. Tuttle said AMI assigned the hotel lease to Jasper Development, which is also an LLC. Knapp signed as president in that agreement.

Jones' proposal to build the Microtel was controversial at the time because the Public Facilities Authority did not seek competitive proposals from other developers. Jones was campaign manager in Dick's unsuccessful bid for mayor of Tulsa in 1994. Jones has been one of Dick's top political contributors in the past.

But Dick said that Jones' building of a simulcast facility kept the fairgrounds from closing its doors during hard financial times. Fairgrounds buildings were in poor condition. The racing simulcast operation was previously run out of the old Trade Center.

"The simulcast facility is what kept the doors open to the fairgrounds for a long time. Now with the improvements we're making, other things are starting to kick in, but had we not had a simulcasting facility, there was talk of shutting down a lot of venues and reducing a number of shows we had out there because we were losing money on them," Dick said.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=5347.msg8970#msg8970

1)
REI should be a tenant in the new Santa Fe Square project.  If stores like REI and Apple want marquee locations, and Elliot is trying to bring marquee shopping back to downtown Tulsa, it seems to me like a natural fit.  The age of power center retail is passing.  Plus part of the magic of those sexy brands like REI and Apple and Bonobos is their preference for downtown stores as a branding exercise. 

In really big cities you're seeing national chain store retail booming downtown, even though the stores lose money.  The value is in being a showroom and advertising for online shoppers rather than actual sales per SF.  I wonder if that's something we'll see with Santa Fe Square.  In my dreamworld that becomes Boston Avenue. 

2) those failing big box power centers take up an enormous amount of space.  What will Tulsa do once the 41st and Yale area is entirely vacant?  The buildings are crappy, windowless, and enormous and can't really be repurposed.  The site probably requires environmental remediation, and it's big enough to fit far more apartments and housing than the Tulsa market can possibly absorb.  It's a problem that every city that grew post-WWII is going to have to figure out. 

Most likely:
a) Abandon more public park land and sell it cheap for run-of-the-mill private development;
b) Install more glaring acorn lights;
c) Rename more streets after Civil War era photographers or other people who have nothing to do with Tulsa's history;
d) Rip up some more perfectly good sidewalks and replace them with rough, faux-brick pavers; and
e) Widen more streets.

Your cynicism is well-justified I'm afraid.  Hell, it's not even really cynicism, just the reality decades of short-sighted development practices have bestowed upon us Tulsans.

There really is nothing more depressing than derelict big box.  It feels almost like an abandoned mine - a company comes in, hoovers up all the value, and then leaves behind its mess for the public sector to try and clean up. 

A derelict big box on an extra wide and re-named street with acorn lights and faux-brick pavers around it is more depressing than a plain old run-of-the-mill derelict big box.

Don't forget to raise residential property assessed values.    As someone that lives very close to Promenade mall, I'd like to know why I just got a notice that my home's assessed value went up 13%.   Apparently abandoned/derelict malls are a raise property values.  Who knew.   (you know you're an adult when you're going to to visit city hall to contest your property value)

FWIW, both the houses I own a couple of miles north of you along the Yale corridor were re-assessed as well this year.

Mine went up as well. IIRC about 20%. Fortunately it is held to a smaller percentage because of my age. I wonder if the plan is to raise these properties ad valorem now because they are age limited in the belief that when the boomers cash in or pass on that they automatically jump to the most recent appraised tax value regardless of what derelict boxes may be nearby. Actually, pretty smart.

Check the property map:
http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-maps-agree.php?type=interactive

If your $ per square ft assessment is similar to your neighbors', don't waste your time.

Add Gordman's to the list (http://www.newson6.com/story/34799471/gordmans-declares-bankruptcy-closing-all-stores)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/business/samuelhardiman/biz-beat-creative-ways-tulsa-could-repurpose-its-vacant-storefronts/article_5317eebb-11df-5673-9b5f-0c4496b00149.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/business/samuelhardiman/biz-beat-creative-ways-tulsa-could-repurpose-its-vacant-storefronts/article_5317eebb-11df-5673-9b5f-0c4496b00149.html)

when was the last time your house had been assessed?  Mine went up (21st and yale), but I assumed that was because it was still showing a cost from 2007 when the previous owner bought the house

TW has noticed. This is a great and puzzling question. It is yet another reason why Tulsa should not give sweet deals to developers promising new retail. We have plenty of existing retail that is vacant or will be vacant soon with no end to the decline in sight.

What would make sense to me is for big online companies like Amazon to create "facilitation centers" where you can go try the top-rated best-selling items and place your order (or for a bit more markup, buy one there to take home or have delivered that day). They key difference being facilitation centers wouldn't necessarily carry any stock and are designed as showrooms first and only selling items they can restock from a warehouse quickly (Just-in-time delivery).

Indoor sports practice/training areas seems reasonable (golf/baseball/go-carts). There's a mutli-sports arena complex going in near Southern Hills. Maybe that's a new model of things to come.

Indoor dog parks? Maybe dog clubs for those too snobby to use a public dog park and who want an indoor year-round place for dogs to go socialize and play off-leash (outdoor dog park clubs already exist - e.g. Dallas).

In the future, maybe an advanced Virtual Reality setup. Basically, a place that has high-end VR and all sensor equipment needed to facilitate a great unique VR experience so the average person can go try it from time to time without having to buy expensive equipment with limited media/games that may or may not be obsolete within a year or so.

UAV/Quad-Copter/Drone race courses - What we see so far might be just the tip of the iceberg in terms of popularity for these in the future. Imagine a place where you can go to race these and if something breaks, be able to get it fixed or buy parts there. Niche hobby places often struggle but they could diversify by having remote control race cars tracks, remote boat race areas and even a robot battle ring. Would be a place for both hobbyists and spectators.

Split the areas up into tiny retail booths. Yes this has the potential to be bad/cheap-looking but also could be really neat if done well. The Antique Mall in the old farmers market building west of downtown OKC is a good example but the starting building was a great historical building to begin with - not a JC Penny or Gordmans.

Retail stores probably need to focus on becoming more of an experience and offer incentives and other things you can only get in-store or else many more will eventually be replaced by online shopping.

Breweries/brewpubs - Micro-Breweries require light-industrial zoning, but perhaps more brewpubs/breweries could get zoning approvals and fill some of the space as they are set to really take off with new laws.

Converting to share-workspaces like 36 Degrees North in the Brady Arts District

Neiman Marcus considers sale to Hudson's Bay.......


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-14/neiman-marcus-is-considering-a-sale-of-company-following-slump (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-14/neiman-marcus-is-considering-a-sale-of-company-following-slump)

Ultimately, the demand for commercial space is going to plummet. No matter what crazy/inventive ideas people come up with, there will be many millions more square feet of commercial space available in the Tulsa area in the coming years and no one to fill them (Old Borders is STILL empty 6 years later). So commercial-zoned properties and commercial rental rates should plummet (not that it will, especially in the newer hot-spots like Southern Hills. In fact, the places still lively and busy should go up).

Look around at all of the empty restaurant and retail space all over: Even in areas viewed as hot spots like Downtown and Cherry Street, there are lots of vacancies. Some places were never even occupied like the shopping center with Bed Bath & Beyond off I44. If you drive around any part of Tulsa (especially North, East or West), you see perhaps more vacant commercial space than occupied spaces. In those areas, land-owners had a few choices: Keep lowering rent to compete with an ever-declining pool of worsening/riskier candidates, sell the property at a loss, or keep it and hope the area turns around later on. That third approach could work if you aren't dependent on the rental income and don't mind the taxes (which don't really drop as fast as your property value does) and could pay off if the area ever becomes "quaint" or gets bought to be developed, but in the majority of cases, it doesn't get better and the "nice" parts of town keep moving further out where the cheap land is. Value declines until you can hardly give the property away. Virtually every retail center/strip or "hot spot" from more than 20 years ago is now a dump (Admiral strip, 61st & Memorial,  71st & Memorial is getting redone partly but looks dumpy now). A few have been re-purposed (Eastland Mall, though area is still a dump). Many more have a pretty high vacancy rate.

I can see larger commercial property owners getting their land rezoned to multi-family residential and flooding the market with cheap apartments/condos, even if retrofitting some of these is expensive. Hotels would make sense also. Whatever happens, the big corporations which own most of this property (and probably already made enough profit from these short-lived shopping centers to be ahead) will likely come out ahead anyway (They'll have the resources to compete for fewer tenants and retrofit as needed). Smaller businesses with too much invested in commercial properties will suffer. Homeowners in those areas could be hurt as an influx of either vacant space or apartments lowers land values.

Lets hope people and the economy can adjust to this and create something to replace big box retail. Of course this board is full of people who are for smart development for many of these exact reasons which make these big-box stores such bad development choices. Tulsa won't be the only place to suffer from this and perhaps Tulsa will be better off than a lot of places which might have a lot more invested in retail and malls, but decades of poor commercial retail development prove that Tulsa has not set itself up well for the future either. Furthermore, this could end up hindering good future developments such as Santa Fe Square and the others downtown which have seemed to stall. If retail demand plummets, it's hard to build hundreds of thousands of square feet of premium retail. Sure you could make it office space, but that's not an easy swap.

I find it fascinating how dense urban retail centers declined as mid-century preferences shifted towards bigger and bigger store footprints to hold enormous amounts of inventory with more and more parking.  It's what killed historic retail centers like downtown and Kendall-Whittier and every small town Main Street. 

Now preferences are shifting back to what they were pre-1950 - lots of little shops with small footprints.  Places where those old storefronts survived 50 years of neglect, like the Chicago North Side, Cherry Street, etc are booming.  I bet if you could go to any small Oklahoma town and teleport its Main Street to downtown Tulsa the place would be gangbusters successful.  I love Main Street by Prairie and Hunt Club and that is literally the one block of classic main street that survived in downtown.  You can only imagine how awesome it would be if Main Street still stretched unbroken all the way to the Sinclair Building.

I also think that small footprint, experiential retail is alive and well.  Unique restaurants, sweet patio bars, services, anything that can't be replicated online.  Those things thrive in walkable areas and fail in shopping centers.

I honestly have no idea what to do about our legacy of huge shopping centers that have no real use anymore.  Tear them down and make housing?  In any case we should be discouraging the nasty habit of building more of them at the extreme edge of the city. 

Great points and great insight.

There's always going to be need for terrestrial retail, it will never completely disappear.  Home improvement stores will always have a local demand as no one is likely to mail order building materials or spring plants and many times I find myself there out of a sudden necessity or an impulse whim of another project I want to tackle.

Electronics stores like Best Buy seem to be doing quite well even with tons of online competition.  That might be because some of us are just not technically savvy and like having someone to ask questions before pulling the trigger or the simple fact your TV took a dump and you don't want to wait a day or two for the new one to show up.

Penney's and Sears are dated models and really did not offer much of interest to myself or my wife, nor many others it would appear.  I'm surprised Sears held out as long as it did as there was seldom more than 30-40 cars in their parking lot.  I didn't go there for lawn equipment and I'd long since stocked my tool supply with Craftsman tools.  I might buy the occasional tool gift there but that was it.  They weren't competitive on electronics or appliances.  Their clothing prices even on "store closing" mark down aren't competitive.

Locally branded retail will always do well if they have an innovative inventory, a niche which is not well filled elsewhere, or simply great ownership/management people find hard to resist.  I'm not certain if it's national level retail Santa Fe Square is planning to attract or locally-based, has anyone else heard?  I'd think a good mix of both would do well by downtowners.  It would be wonderful if an Apple Store would open downtown.

Along the lines of big box, I noticed the turnpike improvements at Elm in Jenks appear done or very near, yet there's no dirt turning for the proposed Simon Outlet Mall.  I honestly don't see this happenening and Simon apparently isn't really forthcoming with new information on starting or completing construction.

I think the statements that big box retail is dying or collapsing are overstated (the large department store model may very well be on the way out).  The real issue is there is simply way too much retail space.  Not only are online sales eating into brick and mortar businesses, but there has been way too much brick and mortar built over the last decade.
 
Think of the major retail areas that have sprung up in Tulsa in the last decade: Owasso along 169, Broken Arrow east of Bass Pro, Memorial from South Tulsa into Bixby, and Tulsa Hills/Walk.   A decade ago, big box retail in those locations simply did not exist and folks in those areas traveled to Woodland Hills/71s & Memorial, 41st & Yale and 21st & Yale to do a much of their shopping.  Now, each of those areas essentially has all the same types of stores/restaurants and everyone stays closer to home.  In that same decade, Tulsa area’s population growth hasn’t come close to matching the growth in retail square footage. 

Often using debt to fund continuous expansion plans to hit growth numbers to please shareholders or equity fund owners, big box brands just kept building and building as new “life style” centers voraciously ate up land.  As the saying goes, something that can’t go on forever won’t.  That kind of expansion cannot continue to exceed population/consumer growth, and highly leveraged balance sheets can’t survive many bad management decisions or an economic downturn.  While the national economy grew slowly for most of the last decade, Tulsa’s economy took a dive with oil prices the past 2 years. 

Slow population growth, declining economy and an oversupply of retail store fronts.  Perhaps the only surprise is there aren’t more empty stores in Tulsa.

Amazon and others be killin their biz....

With the tepid population growth in Tulsa (if there even is any growth) the new shopping centers and such that we have are basically just thinning out the customer base or drawing it to a new area leaving the older areas to suffer.  Add to that internet purchasing eating up a percentage. 

What I worry about of course is downtown.  I am still frustrated that I was beaten down over the zoning thing that could have perhaps gotten us a step towards having a retail corridor.  In order for retail to survive downtown it will need to be a part of the "experience" thing.  We will need to have a concentration of retail/restaurant somewhere downtown to make it a lively and interesting destination area.  That liveliness will be the the attraction and "experience" that will draw people to the retail.  Otherwise, having a couple shops here, a few there, etc. will result in weak, struggling retail.  I for one am trying to do three things at once.  Keep interesting fun products in the store at a good price while also now trying to add fun "experience" type components into the store, and also going up one more dimension by adding "stories" and characters to the products and experience components.  Got to work to stay ahead of what the other guys are doing and realizing!  Cant' wait for you to see what I have up my sleeves next!

I agree that big box retail is not completely dying or collapsing so quickly, but we are talking long-term changes here. Just like when people talk about what will all of the Semi-Truck drivers and cab drivers do when driverless cars replace them. In-store retail is on the decline and within the next couple years in-store retail will be at least a 10% down from it's peak. Not catastrophic, but that represents billions in dollars of sales that won't be there for brick and mortars and who knows what the ceiling is for online sales? I could see that reaching 30% eventually.



Did those areas really create much new retail sales growth or did they simply siphon it from other areas? I see a lot of empty storefronts in strip malls all over Broken Arrow and these places probably added to the decline of Promenade and hurt other new places like Midtown Village off I44 which has only Bed Bath & Beyond. I think it is a combo of too much new retail square footage (perhaps the larger issue to date?) and declining demand due to online sales.

It seems like the model for retail is to build new to create a new posh shopping center by the highway that is nicer than other shopping centers so people will want to flock to it instead, usually with a popular chain anchor tenant new to the area such as REI/Bass Pro/etc. These new places create a buzz for a while and the area may thrive for a decade or two with high rents until it turns into just another retail area and dies off as it deteriorates. All the while, all of the dozens of other retail strips suffer with declining rents, declining buildings and declining customers and many parts of town end up looking like post-apocalyptic strip mall grave yards (See: East Tulsa, Admiral blvd).

Also, a lot of shopping center developers are "merchant builders."  They build the same thing over and over again in different markets, in this case big box shopping centers, usually with cities leaping to provide public infrastructure for extra sales tax revenue.  

That model generally requires a pre-packaged plan they can slap down on a greenfield site with a few minor adjustments.  It's Model T Ford style development.  It doesn't fit well with buying an existing shopping center and rehabbing it, or dealing with a pre-existing urban neighborhood.

So development keeps sprawling south because that is where the greenfield sites are.    

I'm also going to take a wild guess that a lot of the semi-abandoned shopping centers in Tulsa like 41st & Yale have environmental issues that cookie cutter developers don't want to deal with.  That much parking with that much vehicle run off for that many years is likely to have caused some problems.

@Artist - I agree that downtown needs a marquee retail street - Michigan Avenue in Chicago, Newbury Street in Boston, King Street in Charleston.  I think Tulsa's issue is that its best, most intact streetwall - Boston Avenue - is also its most intense office/commercial street.  A lot of those storefronts will have highest and best uses that target office workers instead of shoppers/visitors.  In those other cities I mentioned, the premier retail street is always near the CBD/Financial District but never actually in it.  But in any case you're right - retail/entertainment has to be tightly clustered if it is going to become more than the sum of its parts.    And I still hope it becomes Boston Avenue because that's my favorite street in all of Oklahoma.  

Yeah, that is what I call "Copy & Paste America" and has done a great job making countless communities look like anywhere else. They package the same 4-8 big-chain tenants and get them to agree to place locations in X number of places. They build there and are able to undercut locals on rent thanks to the tax abatements or kickbacks from the city (and location, thanks to charitable city counsels!) and the chains are able to undercut local places (volume, nice/new store thanks to funding, etc).

These places feel so generic as do the establishments that typically fill them which are often devoid of local flavor or personal touch. Many Americans love that sort of stuff like what they did in Owasso. Sure it looks nicer than the alternative (deteriorating strips), but shuts all the little guys out of business in favor of huge corporations. Is this a good sustainable future which will be fruitful to continue to invest in? Is this the sort of society we want? Too late to ask that. It is what we have.

That would be great if Boston could develop into that. I think perceived parking (and inability to park hundreds of cars easily) has kept big retail out of that strip and made retail demand there slow. So many shops have opened and closed in that area.

Maybe the Block surrounding Santa Fe Square will have to be the marquee retail street. The Boxyard gives a good start to building a retail area along with the main Blue Dome (Detroit-Elgin-1st-2nd) block as another bookend. That area has some of the biggest hustle and bustle downtown and is set to really pick up with the PAC lot and Santa Fe projects. It could end up being the best little urban district in Oklahoma and be enough of an experience to pull in the kinds of crowds that keep retail feasible. There are so many events throughout the year that could boost foot traffic and sales (St Patrick's Day, Blue Dome Arts Festival, Tulsa Tough).

With all the restaurants opening it is the same thing.  There aren't a lot more people showing up they are just going different places. 

JC Penney in Tulsa spared for now

Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/jc-penney-stores-in-claremore-stillwater-and-ponca-city-to/article_293ae69b-3734-54d3-82fe-8aa33decab83.html)

Looks like pending doom for Woodland Hills' Sears  (all remaining sears' actually)

http://www.newson6.com/story/34979739/sears-may-shut-its-doors

http://www.fox23.com/news/tulsa-neighbors-near-51st-and-harvard-concerned-by-closing-businesses/499493308

Lots of big box failure at 51st & Harvard. That whole area needs to be bought up and redone in one big mega-project.

If "lots" = K-mart and Reasors
"Country Club Plaza" (the strip where Reasors is) could use an update...   Perhaps an REI.  right off of the interstate....
Hobby Lobby and Mardel is an improvement to the former K-mart location.

Perhaps a grocery store would do better in the old Hobby Lobby spot.

mega-projects tend to produce cookie cutter strip malls with generic big-box.

Legalize pot, and all these places would become greenhouses. 

http://www.denverpost.com/2014/03/10/pot-growing-warehouses-in-short-supply-as-demand-for-legal-weed-surges/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2014/03/10/pot-growing-warehouses-in-short-supply-as-demand-for-legal-weed-surges/)
http://www.denverpost.com/2015/10/19/marijuana-industry-drives-denver-metro-areas-real-estate-recovery/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2015/10/19/marijuana-industry-drives-denver-metro-areas-real-estate-recovery/)

Construction dumpsters and contractor sign at the former Mardel's on Harvard.

Anyone know what's going in there?

They have been walking dead for years...that is the price for going the Harvard School of Business MBA route...  You cannot "cut cost" your way out of a bad situation as the sole solution.

Joel Coggins is the contractor. His Facebook photo album has a lot of pics of Rustic Cuff build-outs. Coincidentally, happens to be the same building that Rustic Cuff used for a pop up  shop on Black Friday last year.  But, who knows? 

Here's hoping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUDwj_mXKE

Personally I was hoping for an aluminum foil wholesaler...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urglg3WimHA

Gander's Going... (liquidation sale underway now)
http://www.fox23.com/news/gander-mountain-closes-tulsa-hills-store/519873796

No surprise there.  I went in shortly after they opened and found nothing at a price point that interested me.

So that lasted about two years and two months. What a waste.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/grand-opening-thursday-gander-mountain-aims-to-be-the-new/article_2ad67168-6f00-5bd9-8eb0-2c3aae6c3bb3.html

The market is saturated with this style of outdoors stores. Gander could not compete with Bass Pro/Cabela's as well as online and smaller regional stores. So now that the assets of Gander Mountain have been bought by Camping World you will have the new camping and hunting superstores where you can get your RV and your ammo at one place.


http://www.wfmj.com/story/35359615/new-gander-mountain-owner-answers-tweets-on-future-of-niles-store (http://www.wfmj.com/story/35359615/new-gander-mountain-owner-answers-tweets-on-future-of-niles-store)



 

Well ONLY 90% of the Gander Mountains are closing.

Maybe REI should take over that spot

I’ve been a participant in such a discussion over on the Facebooks.  Take a look at any REI suburban design and compare to Gander’s Tulsa store.  With some modification to the front entry it would look just like an REI.  Problem solved.

It was suggested that Gander Mtn. be torn down and turned into a park but the Tulsa Suburban Retailers Coalition might object.

Now the new owner is saying that between 70 and 75 stores out of 160 will remain, no specific word on the Tulsa location yet.

http://www.kansas.com/news/business/retail/article149169269.html

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2017/05/07/gander-mountain-closing-not-so-fast-says-new-owner-marcus-lemonis/101402750/

Now that's funny!  :D

I would guess that we will lose about a third of all our brick and mortar retail in Tulsa.

Measured by square footage or store count? The former I could see for sure, the later, I don't know really.

In my locale, the spot opened by Sears in the mall (an anchor tenant) will soon be filled by a sporting goods/outdoor store coincidentally as reported by your vary own Tulsa World. Dunham's Sports. Never been to one. Appears to offer a pretty diverse selection of goods, not just another Hibbett Sports (that is in the parking lot of the mall) which is predominantly apparel/shoes and some equipment for popular sports (football/basketball/soccer/baseball).

Lemonis is the guy who got hold of Good Sam's Club and kinda crapped it up...a lot.

The Mardel looks like it could be a grocery store - anyone know what it is for sure?

Can't tell is this is tongue-in-cheek or not...   Mardel is a large Christian bookstore.

I think the comment was referring to the former Mardel location, possibly being a grocer...

Ah.  Thanks.  I was confused there for a bit.   ;)

Woodland Hills' Sears to close (https://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/sears-files-for-chapter-amid-plunging-sales-massive-debt/article_0d8fb499-3d18-5c94-be84-84a19db5a5fc.html)

Surprised it lasted this long.  Any way we could get a Nordstrom here? 

We've got a tiny Nordstrom across the street FWTW.

Was in last Sat and got a front end alignment (the tech was pretty good at it, too!) and asked the Auto Mgr if he had heard any rumors yet.  He said no, but it's a day to day thing.

They lost their way long, long ago, and the idea that you can "cut costs" your way to success has been proven false over and over.  That means you are also cutting the services and 'style' and other things that got you to where you used to be, too.  Oh, well....evolution in action!   At least the C-suite people will get their golden parachutes...to he$$ with the other 90,000 people working there...!

Sears has been failing for a long time in increments both large and small, most of its own making.  Each bad decision seemed to lead to more bad decisions, etc.  Ironic in that it was the “Amazon” of its day by creating the place from which you could order just about anything and have it shipped directly to you.

https://gizmodo.com/the-twisted-truth-about-sears-and-the-american-dream-1829756711

Sears never had a chance.....

The House that Came in the Mail


https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-house-that-came-in-the-mail/ (https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-house-that-came-in-the-mail/)



(https://99percentinvisible.org/app/uploads/2018/09/1908_132-400x400.jpg)

Go to that page- go half way down - school house 5008.  Looks VERY much like the one I went to 2nd grade in.

You'll see these malls run in stages or cycles; hopefully you will see a return.   

OKC closed Crossroad Mall; attempted to re-purpose it as Plaza Mayor Mall to cater to a growing Hispanic-latino population. 

Amazon has made a big impact on the malls.   What will eventually determine the fate of the Amazon's hype will have more to do with their ability to maintain quality products distributed; how fast they can ship those items.

More on this discussion:

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/sears-bankruptcy-is-likely-to-inflict-pain-on-mall-owners/article_eec2312a-15fe-51f8-8cfb-5bf552339c04.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/sears-bankruptcy-is-likely-to-inflict-pain-on-mall-owners/article_eec2312a-15fe-51f8-8cfb-5bf552339c04.html)

This article is the coming realization of what this board (and many similar-minded folks) have been discussing for years: Big boxes are going down and will leave massive vacant retail spaces, especially in big malls that are built on a outdated model that is becoming obsolete.



They mentioned that a major mall owner spent over $100 million to redevelop a Sears into multiple smaller stores (over $333/sq ft!) but was in Brooklyn. Even if other locations will be much less, re-purposing can be a huge investment. Are malls like Promenade ready to redevelop every major space into something completely different or redistribute and rebuild larger sections like the vacant Macy's wing? Not only will they be left with large empty/awkward spaces that no other retailer can use, they'll have to spend a lot to repurpose and split up, all just to rent for a lower price in a saturated market.

If they would've designed malls for livability and socialization rather than greed and short-term profits, they might've been decent places to live. Converting these places to residential seems like the best path forward in order to utilize the space and get out of the retail market, but would the desirability be there to live in a sometimes outdated mall in areas often notorious for car break-ins?

In fairness, I think the original concept behind the indoor mall was to replicate the old downtown main street shopping experience, except in a safe, climate controlled environment nearer to where everyone now lived in the suburbs.  Where I grew up, many of the downtown stores moved into the new mall built on the then edge of town, which gave the mail a familiar feel.  Over time, of course, those local stores closed, unable to survive the rent and competition of national chains.  As a result, malls began to look and feel alike, as they all had pretty much the same lineup of national chains.  Even worse, like would happen decades later with big box stores, way more malls were built than population growth could ever justify.  Consider that at one time Tulsa had 6 malls plus Utica Square (Williams Forum, Southroads, Promenade, Eastland, Kensington Galleria, and Woodland Hills), and five Dillard’s stores.  Setting aside the competition from big box and on-line retailers, it was inevitable that many malls would fail, particularly those not in high income and rapid growth areas.

Yes, architect Victor Gruen designed the original open-air and indoor malls and intended for them to be whole communities including housing, schools, etc so that life could go on year round in northern climates:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Gruen#Career (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Gruen#Career)

Conveniently, American malls took the retail part of it which was the easiest and most profitable to repeat (at the time) and left out the integrated communities which would've just complicated the plans and caused issues with the standard mall model.


However, Gruen's company designed malls for decades, taking the large contracts and never standing up for his ideals. So he is partly to blame for not realizing or even attempting his own dream.

OKC didn't exactly close Crossroads - it was very much like Eastland here in Tulsa - gangs, punks, and thugs were allowed to take over and scare regular customers away.  I was in that area a lot for the last 3 or 4 years of that.  The local hobby train club had one of the empty stores as a place for model trains for a few years.  I haven't been there in 3 or 4 yrs, so don't know if it is still around...

Eastland isn't a mall anymore, but it's also not dead like Crossroads and so many other malls. It's been completely repurposed into a huge office complex. The old anchors are large call centers, the central parts of the mall has technical colleges, day cares and state offices like the DMV and there are still restaurants in the middle where the food court and main hall were. I've been there a couple of times in the last year getting my son his first DL and it's pretty full.

Thankfully Tulsa doesn't have a lot of dead empty malls. At one time by my count we had eight malls, including three at 41st and Yale alone. Now we have two total and one is sick.

Woodland Hills Mall is healthy
Promenade isn't healthy, but it's also pretty far from dead

Tulsa's dead malls:
Eastland Mall is now the Eastgate office complex
Southroads Mall was reconstructed as Southroads Shopping Center (which is funny because Promenade across the street was an outdoor shopping center rebuilt into a mall)
The Annex Mall was torn down and replaced by new retail buildings as part of the Southroads Shopping Center (Annex Mall was next to Southroads)
The Kensington Galleria Mall is now an office complex
The Williams Center Forum downtown is office space as part of the Williams Center
The was an outlet mall in Broken Arrow that is now a church, I forget the name of the mall, I think it's Battlecreek Church or something like that.

Were there other malls that are now gone?

Like I said, I haven't been to Crossroads for a few years, but it is ALWAYS busy around there - the parking lot isn't full, but there are a good number of cars most times I go by.  May have to drop in sometime soon just to see what is happening...

I think the BA mall was called Factory Outlet Mall...or something similar.  Then when they went bust, it was called Gracemont for a while.  Now Battle Creek something is right...   

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/12/your-shuttered-sears-store-could-soon-be-demolished-heres-why.html

Any info or rumors on what might go in the vacant Sears space at Woodland Hills?

Or the vacant Macy's space at the Promenade?

I hate to state the obvious but nothing terribly inspired.  I'm betting either a minimum wage call center or a mega-church.

Broken Arrow just decided to let 'yet another church' take over the old Hobby Lobby on S Elm.  Great use of that space!!   Not.

The churches are going to go in somewhere. Better to repurpose an existing building that's hard for just about anything to retrofit than build new. BA is already infinite sprawl so seems like no real loss there. Better there than in empty farmland.

Churches are consolidating rapidly with many more of these mega churches to come. Smaller, older churches are declining while people are moving to larger congregations of newer flashier churches. The long game looks bleak for churches, even mega churches, as most future gains will be siphoning from other congregations as young Americans are choosing "no religion" as their top religion.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2018/11/29/how-many-churches-close-per-year/ (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2018/11/29/how-many-churches-close-per-year/)


So in summary the progression of the future as retail declines is:
Big Box Retail --> Mega Churches
Old Small Churches --> Micro-Breweries

Not sure what'll happen to the many mid-sized ugly churches that are fit for no other purpose. I'm guessing like what happened to the old unsightly church in downtown BA, they'll mostly be demolished.

Sadly, true.

Glitz and glam...just what Jesus had in mind, no doubt.

Was thinking about this some more yesterday - will have to do some re-reading, but IIRC, all his events/talks/sermons, etc, were outdoors.  No buildings at all.  In fact, when he visited a building he usually kinda went all 'honey-badger' on them.  I'm thinking churches in general, and megachurches in particular (this includes a lot of really big, old cathedrals) lost track of the whole point long ago.  They certainly aren't 'honoring' the guy they talk about all the time.  Should be the church OF Jesus, not the church ABOUT Jesus.  IF ya really wanna be Christian.

Remember the exact quote God said to Peter: "On this rock, I will build my mega-church(es)"

And don't forget Jesus' sermon on the mount: "Blessed are those who prosper, for they shall be blessed"

It's a real pain to try to watch video on fox23news here, so I very seldom try.  But this one is worth the effort.  This church 'gets' it.  Jesus also was an immigrant.  If his family had been treated the way we treat people, there would likely not have been a major religion.

"Away in a manger, no crib for a bed...the little Lord Jesus locked up by the Feds..."

https://www.fox23.com/news/tulsa-church-makes-political-statement-with-nativity-scene-addition/891607472